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View Full Version : *Ahem* Levelling the playing field.



Signmaker
2009-07-31, 05:52 PM
Flyers are annoying. As are those incorporeal, ethereal, Air Walking, Water Walking, Spider Climbing, etc. etc. It's hard trying to fight something you can't reach, and, at times, you really can't afford to purchase those methods of transportation. Additionally, some of your attack methods just don't work in the air. What's a PC to do?

This is a thread meant to clip wings. List as many ways as possible to defeat whatever alternate transportation method you'd love to hate. Whether it's by casting, by wanding, or simply throwing a net, list ways that one can keep a 3-Dimensional field down to 2-D.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-31, 06:02 PM
Tanglefoot Bags are good for anything with wings. The Rod of Viscid Globs in MIC is like an infinite-tanglefoot-bag-launcher, and extremely inexpensive. There's also the spell Wingbind, which would have a higher DC than those.

The spell Heart of Water in CM is an amazing buff, especially against swimming opponents.

AslanCross
2009-07-31, 06:13 PM
Tanglefoot bags are good, though their range might make them difficult to use. The rod of viscid globs has the same effect, is usable 3/day, and has a range out to 100 ft. (MIC)

EDIT: I really should read posts that come before mine. <_<

The spell blast of force is pretty weak, but it's a ray spell and knocks targets prone on a failed Fort save. If I'm not mistaken, flyers knocked prone automatically crash.

Woodsman
2009-07-31, 06:16 PM
Incorporeal: My first thought is always Ghost Touch weapons.

Spider Climb: On a stone wall? Transmute rock to mud. Quickened Transmute mud to rock. Might not bring it to 2-D, but certainly effective. Even though it requires a 17th level wizard or druid.

Arakune
2009-07-31, 06:29 PM
Does Web help on flying oponents?

AslanCross
2009-07-31, 06:29 PM
Forgot to mention: Wall of Force. It's invisible. Cast it in the flight path of creatures with average and worse maneuverability. They smack into it and crash instantly.

Epinephrine
2009-07-31, 07:06 PM
Downdraft - sure, has a save, but even if they make it it drops them 50 ft. Readied action when they get to about the 50' altitude mark.

And it's hardly ever wasted - it's a Long range spell that can be used to knock ground troops prone, too!

JellyPooga
2009-07-31, 07:55 PM
Be an archer...who also owns an aquatic bow :smallwink:

ex cathedra
2009-07-31, 08:10 PM
Does Web help on flying oponents?

Web has to be cast between two parallel surfaces; for example, from wall-to-wall or from ceiling-to-floor. It's a 10 or 20 foot radius, as well. There are times when it could work; perhaps on the streets of a city with tall buildings. But on a plain? I doubt it. Though it's nice imagery, catching a flier in a web.

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-31, 09:32 PM
locate city bomb will level any playing field, park, city, mountain, plane etc :smallwink: just kidding

Kallisti
2009-07-31, 09:44 PM
Flyers are annoying. As are those incorporeal, ethereal, Air Walking, Water Walking, Spider Climbing, etc. etc. It's hard trying to fight something you can't reach, and, at times, you really can't afford to purchase those methods of transportation. Additionally, some of your attack methods just don't work in the air. What's a PC to do?

This is a thread meant to clip wings. List as many ways as possible to defeat whatever alternate transportation method you'd love to hate. Whether it's by casting, by wanding, or simply throwing a net, list ways that one can keep a 3-Dimensional field down to 2-D.

Wingbind, downdraft, rod of viscid globs, all good ideas. Wall of force and forcecage can help against ethereal or incorporeal, but why bother? Just cast Make Manifest. It's an obscure second level sor/wiz and cleric spell from a little-known sourcebook called Ghostwalk. Basically, it's "will save or become corporeal. Water Walk? Dispel Magic. Sploosh Spider Climb? Dispel Magic or ranged attacks, or any spell that slows it down, or just cast grease and make it fall off. Animal Devotion gives you all the same annoying ways of moving for just one feat.

Signmaker
2009-07-31, 09:44 PM
Thank god you're kidding. "It doesn't work that way" is a massive understatement.

Kaihaku
2009-07-31, 10:09 PM
It's an obscure second level sor/wiz and cleric spell from a little-known sourcebook called Ghostwalk.

An awesome little-known sourcebook, definitely one of my favorites, but sadly 3E one IIRC.

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-31, 10:26 PM
Thank god you're kidding. "It doesn't work that way" is a massive understatement.

sorry, I saw the title of the thread and couldn't resist. Guess that means I have been reading the forum far too long today.

Kalli, thanks for the list, as a DM its good to know what to use against ethereal, flying PCs.

Here is another thought, can you attach a tanglefoot bag on an arrow for a minus to hit to increase its range? All you need to hit is touch AC after all. Cheap and mundane. Also would work on nonmagical spiderclimbers too, right?

golentan
2009-07-31, 10:43 PM
Anyone else notice that the responses are all for wizards, who already have ways to reach anyone and want to keep them there?

As a mostly melee builder myself, my preferred way is to get a mount with a good burrow speed, a lance, and ride by attack. In a dungeon crawl, you can pop out of any surface you feel like, smash em, and be gone before they can blink. In an overland battle, you pop up just often enough to keep them guessing (usually with a super buffed crossbow. Oil of truestrike + a few dozen damage increasers while underground will make them very interested in taking you out or fleeing) while the wizard smites from afar, or ignore the flyer entirely to pursue harassment tactics against ground based forces. A few handy buffs will let you swim, ghost touch on one weapon to counter incorporeals, and as long as nothing hits you with divinations or sends another burrower after you, you can tell the world where they can stick it. Even then you can generally put up a good fight or make a run for it.

I like ashworms for this, as they have a climb speed, and can grant you evasion on loose soil. And a Burrower's saddle will let you dive with them no problem, even if you haven't completed the dragoon prestige class.

BobVosh
2009-08-01, 12:35 AM
locate city bomb will level any playing field, park, city, mountain, plane etc :smallwink: just kidding

Actually it only kills critters. The buildings are just fine :D

Never forget dead magic zone!

Fizban
2009-08-01, 05:25 AM
Anyone else notice that the responses are all for wizards, who already have ways to reach anyone and want to keep them there?

As a mostly melee builder myself, my preferred way is to get a mount with a good burrow speed, a lance, and ride by attack. In a dungeon crawl, you can pop out of any surface you feel like, smash em, and be gone before they can blink. In an overland battle, you pop up just often enough to keep them guessing (usually with a super buffed crossbow. Oil of truestrike + a few dozen damage increasers while underground will make them very interested in taking you out or fleeing) while the wizard smites from afar, or ignore the flyer entirely to pursue harassment tactics against ground based forces. A few handy buffs will let you swim, ghost touch on one weapon to counter incorporeals, and as long as nothing hits you with divinations or sends another burrower after you, you can tell the world where they can stick it. Even then you can generally put up a good fight or make a run for it.

I like ashworms for this, as they have a climb speed, and can grant you evasion on loose soil. And a Burrower's saddle will let you dive with them no problem, even if you haven't completed the dragoon prestige class.
One problem: you can't burrow through solid stone. How many dungeons have you been in that weren't solid stone caves or keeps? That said, ashworms rock, so +1

You can always take Leadership or Dragon Cohort to get a suitable flying steed if you need one, but that's not always the best idea. Does anyone know if entangling does anything to flyers on it's own?

No one's mentioned the harpoon yet. Various sources (Frostburn and Stormwrack use the same versions so it's probably the best to go with). Only problem is you've got to beat them on the strength check to control the rope, and even then there's the question of why they couldn't just pick up your puny weight and drag you off. If you look the other way on that issue (or tie the rope/chain to a wall/suddenly de-shrunk boulder) they can't get away and you can keep attacking with your other hand, or try to come up with mechanics for reeling them in (probably a reverse bull rush).

Jair Barik
2009-08-01, 06:20 AM
Spell earthbind from Dracomnicon seems an obvious choice and antimagic ray can take out anything which is dodging you through magical means (dispel magics achieving much the same effect) Aquatic spellcasting feat from Lords of Madness perhaps

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-01, 12:29 PM
No one's mentioned the harpoon yet.

Even better, attach a few tanglefoot bags to the heads of harpoons or javelins. That'll bring anything with wings down, also any thing climbing on the walls and ceiling.

John Campbell
2009-08-01, 12:31 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of "Just Shoot 'Em."

Belobog
2009-08-01, 01:01 PM
I always thought this was the type of thing Control Winds was made from. Might be better on the fliers than any of the others, but you can still mess them up something good.

And yeah, Ghostwalk's pretty cool. Nothing really overpowered in it, but everything's pretty flavorful and gives some good ideas.

Signmaker
2009-08-02, 08:35 PM
I always thought this was the type of thing Control Winds was made from. Might be better on the fliers than any of the others, but you can still mess them up something good.

And yeah, Ghostwalk's pretty cool. Nothing really overpowered in it, but everything's pretty flavorful and gives some good ideas.

Nothing like turning on a tornado. Uproots trees, destroys any natural form of cover, not to mention, well, the tornado.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-02, 08:54 PM
Personally, I'm a big fan of "Just Shoot 'Em."
Yep. Too many martial types focus on melee and ignore ranged weapons. A tricked-out archer is great for attacking things you can't reach. With a high rate of fire a 50% chance of hitting with magically spiffed arrows leads to a lot of hits.

JerryMcJerrison
2009-08-02, 09:00 PM
Aw, man, I thought this thread was going to be about landscapes with player classes.

Think about it! a Rogue Forest would be able to sneak attack all day, there's cover all over the place in the woods!

Vortling
2009-08-02, 09:34 PM
There's always Bloodstorm blade if you don't feel like investing in both a melee and ranged weapon.

AstralFire
2009-08-02, 09:38 PM
Aw, man, I thought this thread was going to be about landscapes with player classes.

Think about it! a Rogue Forest would be able to sneak attack all day, there's cover all over the place in the woods!

What's a Rogue Forest's favorite weapon?
THE SAP!

Signmaker
2009-08-02, 09:49 PM
What's a Rogue Forest's favorite weapon?
THE SAP!

MY EYES, THEY BURN FROM PUN.

Lysander
2009-08-02, 10:58 PM
Throw up a smokescreen somehow. Unless they have blindsight it'll block their view, doesn't matter if they're ethereal or flying or climbing or whatever. Of course it'll block yours too, but a melee fighter is better off with their enemies stumbling around in fog even if they are also.

Zaq
2009-08-03, 10:15 PM
Reversed Seek the Sky will stop any flying enemy quite nicely.

Pros: No save, and if you use the non-Greater version it even has a continuous effect, so you've removed their flight for, well, the bulk of most combats. Longer if you Extend it.

Cons: You have to be a Truenamer. So yeah.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-03, 10:29 PM
As I discovered in Mechwarrior when playing IS vs Clan, range doesn't matter nearly as much if they can't range on you.

In mechwarrior, I used Flamers to start fires, which caused smoke, which blocked LoS, forcing them to close with me, not only negating their range advantage, but also bringing them closer to melee attacks, which they weren't allowed to use.

In D&D, they're called Smokesticks. Dirt cheap, anyone can use them, and keeps them from being able to hurt you.

Don't play their game, force THEM to come to YOU if they want to be able to hurt you!