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Umael
2009-07-31, 06:50 PM
I mentioned this one before, but I want to get some input from everyone on how to do this.

1) The idea is to take the Wizard and make it a T3 class.

2) The method to do so involves revamping the class to include class features at levels other than 1st (and the Metamagic feats at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th... whee...). However, wizards will become one-school only specialities, where the class features will be based on the school in particular.

So instead of someone being Wizard 6, they would be Necromancer 6 or Evoker 6.

(Note: I know that the Dread Necromancer basically does this already. Wonderful. I don't have Heroes of Horror, and how this would work would be a bit different.)

3) Although the spells the wizard has are limited to his or her particular school, some spells may still be... reworked.

4) Use Magic Device would become a necessary skill for wizards wanting to cast spells outside of his or her specialist.

Rationale: If a wizard "studies" a school of magic, well enough to cast spells, that's like getting a Ph.D. in the subject. Few people have Ph.Ds, fewer still have multiple Ph.Ds. Design rationale: keeps the wizard powerful without being too powerful, and even makes it so that the wizard can do more than rely on his or her spells.

Class features for the wizard would be gained one at 1st, one at 2nd, and one every two levels thereafter (opposite the levels at which the wizard gets new spells).

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-31, 06:55 PM
Done: Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer...

Umael
2009-07-31, 06:55 PM
(double-post to give separate thought)

Example necromancer class features:

Touch of Death - The necromancer can make a touch melee attack, doing 1d4 + necromancer level in negative energy. (Yes, it can heal its undead.)

Drawback - The necromancer suffers -1 to Diplomacy and Handle Animals with all living creatures.

Umael
2009-07-31, 06:56 PM
Done: Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer...

*sigh*

Great, wonderful.

Let's see, that's necromancy and evocation and whatever the Beguiler is.

So what about the other five? Six schools?

aje8
2009-07-31, 07:04 PM
Actually, he's not correct AT ALL.

Warmage is a blaster pure and simple.

Sad but true: Blasting is so bad, GOOD evokers don't blast.... they use evocation Battlefield Control, think Wall of Force, Bigby's hand that kinda thing. Thus, warmage is not one of these.

Beguiler is SUPPOSED to be an enchantment specalist.... but it actually gets quite a few Conjuration and other good spells from some other schools and ends up significantly better than the others. Thus, Beguiler is not one of these.

Dread Necro...... does a fine job IMO and can be left as is.

Also, Conjuration and Transmutation would need to be nerfed. Evocation and Enchantment buffed.

Zore
2009-07-31, 07:05 PM
More like Necromancy Evocation/Conjuration and Illusion/Enchantment. And honestly I would look at basing the others on these, they're already tier three and the Dread Necro is one of my favorite classes mostly because it has class abilities in addition to spells. Class abilities that make it the best undead horde controller in 3.5.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-31, 07:22 PM
*sigh*

Great, wonderful.

Let's see, that's necromancy and evocation and whatever the Beguiler is.

So what about the other five? Six schools?

The Beguiler is mostly Enchantment and Illusion but it has some other schools thrown.

The Warmage is mostly Evocation, non-transportation Conjuration and Necromancy but it has some other schools thrown.

The Dread Necromancer is well mostly Necromancy but others are thrown in too.

I would start from those, since those kind of show what a limited spell list aracanist can do. If you make an Enchantment only arcane caster with some of your reworkings, you have essentially a more limited Beguiler, no? But still I guess the aim would be easy enough to achieve with Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy schools

Not counting the Universal school which has all of 12 spells the other 4 schools are Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, and Transmutation.

Now unless you invent a boatload of offensive spells, like the Giant's own killer divinations (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/STcFi6l45eoAbaxiYPn.html), it's really hard to have a one school spell list class based on Abjuration or Divination.

That leaves Conjuration and Transmutation, both are OK early on but then the spells become abusive/broken.


Actually, he's not correct AT ALL.
Don't confuse brevity for incorrectness.

Edit:


(double-post to give separate thought)

Example necromancer class features:

Touch of Death - The necromancer can make a touch melee attack, doing 1d4 + necromancer level in negative energy. (Yes, it can heal its undead.)

Drawback - The necromancer suffers -1 to Diplomacy and Handle Animals with all living creatures.

The class feature is OK. Remove the drawback, it adds nothing to flavor or mechanics. Most necromancers don't deal with living animals so a penalty to Handle Animals is not a real drawback. Heck a -1 penalty to diplomacy is not a real drawback either.

The main drawback of the limited spell list arcanist is the limited spell list.

The touch attack is in keeping with the general guidelines of necromancy and is similar to what the Dread Necromancer gets. The things you have to decide are
1) Can this attack be iterated - I would say no but you may have other ideas
2) Does this attack work with things like Spectral Hand or Reach Spell or Fell Drain - again I would say no
3) How to protect the necromancer now that he is in touch range for opponents - for ex do you give him light or special undead armors

In essense, since you know the Dread Necromancer is tier 3 (see http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119814), anything that falls short of that is going to be a lower tier. So at minimum your necromancer class should have d6 for HD, light armor proficiency, some kind of touch attack, some kind of ability to control/make undead and some undead like resistances.

Oh and all the existing tier 3 limited arcanists have some limited means to learn spells not on their spell list...

Edit edit:
Beguiler overview http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a
Dread Necro overview http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060627a
Warmage overwiew http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20051018a
Summaries and spell lists for all three at http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

FMArthur
2009-07-31, 07:39 PM
Play a psion. Or alternatively if you want to keep their casting system exactly intact, remove the Sorc/Wiz spell list altogether and make wizards cast psion powers as if they were spells of equivalent level. You could even give them a small power point pool exclusively for augmentation. Discipline powers are only for specialists of that discipline. :smallsmile:

Umael
2009-08-01, 01:49 PM
Play a psion.

You know, I think we get it. You like psions. You think psions are balanced.

But that really is neither here nor there, is it?


RE: Diviner class

I've thought a bit about this, and I think what should make up the difference would be the class features. The only trouble is, if you create absolutely incredible class features for the Diviner, you have to make sure that you don't get people to dip into the Diviner class just to get those features.

Also, to give it a better name, it should be called the Seer. This opens up the possibility that the Seer is a wizard who dabbles in Fate.

Possible class features:

Blindfighting (30')

Flash of Precognition - the seer can roll any particular attack or skill check that is being used in combat, and if not liking the results, the seer can abort the action and choose a different one. This may only be used once per round (and only during combat).

Guidance of Fate - the seer must first encounter or scry an individual. The seer spends 2 minutes meditating, uninterrupted. After the meditation, the seer can then take 20 on any single attack roll against this individual. The seer may choose to take the 20 after the attack has been rolled. If the seer wishes to change targets, the seer loses the Guidance of Fate against the first target. A seer may not stack Guidance of Fate effects to gain multiple successes; each attack that is changed to a 20 must be separated by a 2 minute uninterrupted meditation.

Walking the Path of Destiny - while traveling to a particular, known location, the seer and the seer's companions can remain unharassed by any obstacles that have not been deliberately set to thwart either the seer or the seer's objective of reaching the seer's destination. Weather effects are beneficial for the area traveled, wandering bands of bandits fail to encounter the seer, and traveling companions and horses do not fall prey to random disease or misfortune such as getting lost or having food go bad. However, Walking the Path of Destiny will not protect the seer or the seer's companions from being attacked by a kraken that is besieging a city if the kraken is trying to prevent anyone from getting in or out of the city, nor will it magically conjure up a way to get past the city walls. The seer does not have to engage Walking the Path of Destiny; it is a conscious decision that remains with the seer and the seer's companions until the seer makes it to the chosen destination or the seer dies.

Sacrusanct - it is forbidden to attack the seer unless the seer is involved in hostile activity (similar to the sanctuary spell). However, Sacrusanct does not protect the seer, but rather punishes those who attack the seer. Each time the seer is attacked, the attacker must make a Will Save (DC = 10 + Cha mod + 1/2 seer's level) or suffer an effect chosen by the seer. The effects include:
- become nauseated
- become blind
- suffer damage of 1d4 per seer level
- become geas

Prophecized Victory - the seer and all allies within 30' gain +1 to hit and +1 damage to all attacks, as well as +1 AC and +1 to all saves

Saw It Coming - the seer gains +2 AC, +2 Reflex save, and +2 Initiative.

Gift of the Seer - the seer may grant another person any one seer class feature that the seer already knows for one day at the cost of 100 xp per seer level, which can be shared between the seer and the person accepting the gift however they choose

Divining How It Works - the seer may gain proficiency with any one marital weapon, skill ranks in any skill up to half of the seer's level, or any one class feature (other than proficiency) of another class as if the seer was one higher level in that class than the seer current is - but the seer must either be of that class or have talked to a member of that class for at least five minutes in the past day. This lasts for one day before the seer must select again, losing the benefits of the previous Divining How It Works (although the seer may re-select the same thing if possible).

Thread-weaving - the seer attempts to put people in places where they will suffer the most or do the most good. Once per day, the seer makes Will check (DC = 10 + Int mod of the target + 1/2 the target's HD). If the seer is successful, the target either suffers or is greatly assisted. If the target suffers, the target encounters a hostile creature or creatures with an ECL equal to the target, has a loved one die, has a business fail, or otherwise suffers a setback. If the target benefits, the target encounters a friendly creature or creatures with an ECL equal to the target, finds love, has a financial windfall, or otherwise greatly benefits from a change in fortune. The exact nature of the Thread-weaving is up to the DM, although the player of the seer can suggest something.

Cutting the Strand - once per day, the seer may proclaim that somone's time has come (as a full-round action). This must be done in person or by scrying the individual in question. The target must succeed a Will Save (DC = 10 + Cha mod + 1/2 the seer's level + 4 if done in person) or die immediate (this is considered a death effect). If successful, the target is nauseated for 1 round.


Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-01, 01:57 PM
The Archivist's Dark Knowledge ability would be appropriate.

I think what the goal should be is to have "theme casters". Warmages and Beguilers aren't limited to one school of magic; they get 2 or so with a smattering of other thematically appropriate spells from other schools, with the option to learn more.

quick_comment
2009-08-01, 02:02 PM
Proposed themes:

Blasting - taken by warmage
Sneaky - taken by beguiler
Undead Master - taken by dread necromancer

I think we need:

I know everything (diviner)
The world reshapes itself to my will (transmuter)
No man can harm me (abjurer)

Milskidasith
2009-08-01, 02:03 PM
My comments: The ability to reroll something one time per round is pretty nuts. The other abilities seem fair, although giving a wish/miracle like effect once per day is a bit of a stretch. Also, why is it that, if it's a will check, the targets intelligence modifier is used?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-01, 02:40 PM
@Umael the proposed special abilities are mostly pretty good. Threadweaving is too open ended for my taste. I would prefer it be something like say the equivalent of casting a summon monster spell and sending the critter at the opponent.

That being said, without the class being fully stated, it's still hard to see how it plays out. For ex, some of your proposed abilities would be good for a character that does scouting so would your seer get trapfinding like the beguiler.

Also keep in mind that there are many divination inspired prestige classes out there like loremaster, void disciple and divine oracle. Each has a different take on divination. What elements of those classes does the seer overlap? In what ways is the niche of the seer different from those classes? And how does your seer interact with prestige classes? That is, normally, class abilities are lost when going into a prestige class. But this would mean your seer would not be able to justify going into loremaster, even though it is a natural fit, because all he takes to loremaster is the mostly non-combat divination school spell list.

Even with your proposed abilities, your divination bound seer is still pretty weak, tier 6 weak. Unless you expand his spell list to include spells from other schools that fit the seer's theme or invent offensivw divination spells like Rich Burlew did, the seer will remain tier 6.

Lastly as for inventing divination spells which are offensive, it takes work, but I don't think you have to worry about whether other, non-seers can take it.

For ex, your death effect could easily be a refluffed slay living or finger of death. Same spell mechanically just different school descriptor and fluff. But then the question becomes, why not just open the spell list to slay living or finger of death and forgo the fluffing. Fluffing can make your hands tired after a while...all that typing.

aje8
2009-08-01, 02:45 PM
No man can harm me (abjurer)
That would seem pretty terrible as all the best defensive spells are NOT abjuration.

Best defesnive spells: Fly, Mirror Image, Invisability, Greater Mirror Image, Contigency


Which one of those is abjuration? That's right none! Abjuration is good for the incredible Dispel Magic line and then for the occasional spell here and there. If you can only cast from one school, school order would probably be:

1. Conjuraiton
2. Transumutation
3. Illusion
4. Necromancy
5. Enchantment
6. Evocation
7. Abjuration (It's completley 100% a support school. That makes it way worse.)
8. Divination

As opposed to the normal order which is more like:
1. Conjuraiton
2. Transumtaiton
3. Illusion
4. Abjuration/Necromancy
5. Enchantment
6. Evocation
7. Dvivination

Jothki
2009-08-01, 08:42 PM
Well then maybe Abjuration needs some better defensive spells. We're already homebrewing here, adding additional spells is reasonable.

Actually, if schools are going to be completely seperated, there's no need to prevent schools from stepping on each others' toes. For example, right now Divination really doesn't do much. However, it could be easily revamped to have a range of spells that, say, allow targets to percieve their foes actions in advance, giving bonuses in combat. You could do something similar with social checks, giving the party face an awareness of how people will react to what he says in advance, which translates to a skill bonus.

Umael
2009-08-01, 09:05 PM
Quick reply, having to run a game soon.


My comments: The ability to reroll something one time per round is pretty nuts.

If you are referring to Flash of Precognition, that's not how it works.

Say you are in a fight with an orc. You roll to hit and get a 12 total. The orc has an AC of 14. Using Flash of Precognition, you decide that since your attack did not succeed, you will instead Aid Other to help someone else hit the orc. You roll and get a 20. Congratulations, you just helped another PC by giving them a +2 to hit on their next attack, but you did NOT get to hit the orc yourself.



The other abilities seem fair, although giving a wish/miracle like effect once per day is a bit of a stretch. Also, why is it that, if it's a will check, the targets intelligence modifier is used?

I wrote that one in a hurry. Sorry.



Even with your proposed abilities, your divination bound seer is still pretty weak, tier 6 weak. Unless you expand his spell list to include spells from other schools that fit the seer's theme or invent offensivw divination spells like Rich Burlew did, the seer will remain tier 6.

Tier 6???

Seriously???

I know I'm not an expert designer, but I would think that with the spell True Strike and the class features Guidance of Fate, you could set yourself up to do some major damage. Get yourself a Greataxe, study your target, meditate for 2 minutes, then hit your target for a just about guaranteed critical? If you managed to get Initiative and within melee combat, you could almost one-shot a Beholder at level 1!

Or how about Divining How It Works?

And you're telling me that it would still make the Seer a Tier 6??

After reading the Divination list, I see your point about the spells and what not, but seriously, that's got to be at least a Tier 5.

erikun
2009-08-01, 09:51 PM
I know I'm not an expert designer, but I would think that with the spell True Strike and the class features Guidance of Fate, you could set yourself up to do some major damage. Get yourself a Greataxe, study your target, meditate for 2 minutes, then hit your target for a just about guaranteed critical?
What?

Okay, assuming you took the time to scry/spy on the target, assuming you spent the last 2 minutes meditating, assuming you won surprise, assuming you're a 20 STR wizard at level 10 with Power Attack and a Scythe:

2d4 + 7 (STR) + 3 (enchantment) + 10 (5-point power attack) = 2d4+20

8d4+80 on a critical.

Congratulations, you've killed the Beholder. You're now in the middle of five ogres, where you can't even attempt such a strike again. You have no warding (defensive buffs are in another school, remember?) and need to fight them off with the equilivant of a longsword for damage.

And how many wizards are going to have 20 Strength, Power Attack, and Scythe Proficiency?

This sounds like a really bad strategy. I actually like the diviner, especially in the information gathering/tactical combat vein. However, saying that you can spend 2 minutes and 1-2 spells to kill off a single creature simply isn't worth it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-01, 10:14 PM
Diviniation + Abjuration as a theme for a caster.

erikun
2009-08-01, 11:27 PM
Alright, I'm not sure if that last post was too helpful. Let's try again.

Whenever I think of a Diviner, I think of someone searches for answers, locates hidden stuff, and tries to gather information relating to a matter at hand. They are probably the least combat-oriented or the specializations, which wouldn't be such a problem if D&D wasn't so combat-focused. :smalltongue:

I view Wisdom as an important ability for a Diviner. Not as much as Intelligence, but it is still important - much like Constitution for a Transmuter (for health after transforming), like Charisma for Conjurer/Enchanter (to manipulate the summoned/charmed), or like Dexterity for the Evoker (for surprise and striking first). Several of the abilities I recommend use a Wisdom modifier for bonuses.

Skills would be Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot. Possibly higher than normal skill points/level. Trap disarming might fit, but it steps on the Rogue's toes even more.

A lot of the abilities I'm going to mention below will either be useable 1 + Wisdom modifier times per day, or once per combat. I'm not recommending using all of them; it's just a collection of abilities I'd think to see on a "Diviner" class.

Skill Divination: When rolling a skill check, you may add your Diviner class level to the result. Doing so indicates gaining a brief glimpse into the future, and using such knowledge to your advantage - such as knowing which ways the guards will look, and hiding where you know they aren't watching. Using this skill doesn't influence future rolls, though. A poor Forgery check is still poor, you're just using Skill Divination to distract the guard enough that he won't check it properly. (usable 1 + Wis modifier times per day)

Aura Sense: By focusing on an area for one minute, you can get a sense of any magical auras active in the area. (might be better suited for the Abjurer, though)

Blindsense, Blindsight, Blindsight 60' are probably appropriate, although the actual blindsight would likely be lv. 10+

Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge make sense, too.

Reflexive Deflect: Add your Wisdom modifier to AC for one attack, as you instinctively avoid the attack. (useable one per combat)

Proactive Avoid: Negate one non-critical attack against you (turning it into a miss) or negate one critical confirmation (turning it into a standard hit). Usable one per combat.

Knowledge Devotion: (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Knowledge_Devotion,CC) just what it says

Knowledge Assistance: Whenever you hit an opponent with an attack, allies gain a +1 to hit until the end of your next turn. Alternately, you grant +4 to aid another checks in combat.

....that's all I can think of right now.

Saph
2009-08-02, 12:29 AM
Diviniation + Abjuration as a theme for a caster.

I'd go with this. After all, the Beguiler uses both Illusion and Enchantment, right? You don't have to limit yourself to just one school per caster.

I'd do something like this:

Sneak: Illusion + Enchantment, basically the Beguiler.
Necromancer: Necromancy.
Protector: Divination + Abjuration.
Blaster: Evocation + the damage spells from Conjuration.
Conjurer: The rest of Conjuration.
Transmuter: Transmutation school.

The Transmuter would probably be the strongest out of those, so you might have to redistribute some of his spells to the Protector and Blaster lists.

- Saph

Set
2009-08-02, 12:43 AM
Sneak: Illusion + Enchantment, basically the Beguiler.
Necromancer: Necromancy.
Protector: Divination + Abjuration.
Blaster: Evocation + the damage spells from Conjuration.
Conjurer: The rest of Conjuration.
Transmuter: Transmutation school.

And there doesn't have to just be one set of pairings.

A Necromancer / Evoker (who taps into destructive forces of cold, negative energy, acid, etc.) would be very different from a Necromancer / Conjurer (who calls up undead minions and extraplanar forces from the negative-aligned planes), which would be different still from a Necromancer / Transmuter (who has spells to warp the flesh of the living and the dead, weaving flesh and bone and blood in a gruesome tapestry).

An Illusionist / Evoker, who conjures forces quasi-real and *very* real would be neat, as well.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-02, 01:17 AM
Tier 6???

Seriously???

I know I'm not an expert designer, but I would think that with the spell True Strike and the class features Guidance of Fate, you could set yourself up to do some major damage.

Look if you only want positive feed back then say so at the start. Otherwise I gotta call as I see'em and I'm no expert designer either.

Beyond the specifics, you are saying here that your Seer is a gish. I was going under the assumption, as you hinted before, that you wanted a limited school caster, as in primarily caster not fighter.

If you want a gish for your Seer that is fine. However a gish is at best that is a Duskblade (tier 3) or a Hexblade (tier 4) but it's hard to tell because you have not proposed hit dice or BAB progression. More over, those classes have debuffing and damage causing spells through the melee attack. So far you have only proposed 1 melee trick for the Seer (true strike with power attack) and that is hardly a good enough trick at all levels. Maybe if you give a free true strike per round but even that is probably not good enough by itself for the class AND is prone to abuse by multiclassing.

As for Guidance of Fate, sure it's OK. But a class that MUST scry to be effective is certainly a lower tier. That's completely different from the tier 1 and 2 classes that are super effective without scrying and can then also scry and be super effective to, you know, make sure all the other tiers know how bad they are.



After reading the Divination list, I see your point about the spells and what not, but seriously, that's got to be at least a Tier 5.
Why quibble? Tier 5 it is then.

It is the diviniation school limit that puts the class on such a low tier. Pharaoh's Fist suggestion is a good one in making the class have MOSTLY a combination of divination and abjuration spells.

This not only kills two schools with one stone but it makes for some pretty awesome synergy.

But low power level of the proposed Seer class was only one of my two main, hopefully contructive, criticisms.

The second is, what is the Seer's role? Is utility, scouting, fighting, etc.

For ex, the Beguiler fills some of the same roles as Bard and Arcane Trickster. It's a face/social skill role but with some dungeon utility thrown in.

The Warmage is blaster pure and simple. It fills the same role as the Warlock except the Warlock does it better.

The Dread Necromancer was probably the best limited spell list class that was put out but that's because it's school and list had some pretty good spells for offense and battle field control.

And related to that question is how is the Seer different from/how does it interact with the Loremaster, the Void Disciple, Divine Oracle? How would an abjuration based caster be different from/interact with for ex Initiate of the Seven Fold veil?

I think the comments by others like erikun or quick_comment are helpful in this regard to what a diviner and/or abjurer might be. Perhaps you're looking at a defense heavy gish with some scouting ability. Ultimately you have to decide of course.

Lastly, I will raise one point which I have not explicitly stated before. The two schools, divination and abjuration, are generally weak in combat but arguably have some of the most overpowered and or broken spells in the game, for ex disjunction, anti-magic field, scry and moment of prescience. I propose that it is precisely these "pesky" spells (along with teleport, contigency, etc) that the limited spell list casters like Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock and Dread Necromancer were supposed to "solve". And by solve I mean ban.

So now that you have a limited spell list caster based on these two schools, the question is how do you want to handle the "peskyness" of scrying or anti-magic fields and such? That is, the other limited spell list casters offer straight forward play. A class based on scrying and/or AMFs/disjunction is not so easy for the players or DM. Do you propose to limit the "problem" spells in anyway?

Umael
2009-08-02, 04:29 PM
Look if you only want positive feed back then say so at the start. Otherwise I gotta call as I see'em and I'm no expert designer either.

It's not the positive versus the negative feedback.

It's the fact that it feels like I tried to come up with a concept for how to make the Seer a viable concept, not too powerful, not too weak, and I get a "oh, yeah, that's definitely Tier 6".

I'm here scratching my head trying to figure out how you came up with Tier 6. From a design viewpoint, Tier 5 is "okay, you got some ideas that could work, but they need a lot of work," and Tier 6 which is "look, the concept is junk, toss it, start all the way over."



Beyond the specifics, you are saying here that your Seer is a gish. I was going under the assumption, as you hinted before, that you wanted a limited school caster, as in primarily caster not fighter.

I'm not sure what is the best idea for the seer, so I suppose I should go back to the strategy design and go from there.

The Seer should be an information-based character. I would say Dominic Deegan, but he uses a lot of other spells that are definitely not Divination, and I'm not sure that's the right feel for it. I supposed right after getting the information would be concealing information. The third role would be a bit of protection, with a slight amount of buffing.

At high levels, I suppose I think the Seer should be someone who is always 4 steps ahead of everyone else, someone who can read the future and know what you are going to do before you do it, and has set up a way to avoid it. The Seer would have a limited ability to actually defend itself, but would instead rely on knowing what someone was planning on doing and setting up a counter ahead of time.



And related to that question is how is the Seer different from/how does it interact with the Loremaster, the Void Disciple, Divine Oracle? How would an abjuration based caster be different from/interact with for ex Initiate of the Seven Fold veil?

I think the comments by others like erikun or quick_comment are helpful in this regard to what a diviner and/or abjurer might be. Perhaps you're looking at a defense heavy gish with some scouting ability. Ultimately you have to decide of course.

Just quoting this to make sure you know I read and am thinking about this part. And the rest you had to say.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-03, 06:31 PM
The Seer should be an information-based character. I would say Dominic Deegan, but he uses a lot of other spells that are definitely not Divination, and I'm not sure that's the right feel for it. I supposed right after getting the information would be concealing information. The third role would be a bit of protection, with a slight amount of buffing.

At high levels, I suppose I think the Seer should be someone who is always 4 steps ahead of everyone else, someone who can read the future and know what you are going to do before you do it, and has set up a way to avoid it. The Seer would have a limited ability to actually defend itself, but would instead rely on knowing what someone was planning on doing and setting up a counter ahead of time.

It would be interesting if you can pull it off.

Hmmm...lesse...starting at low levels.

How about d6 HD, low BAB, good will and reflex saves, light armor proficiency, and spontaneous casting based on Int. Class skills as expert. Can summon a familiar.

Spell list:
Level 1: alarm, endure elements, hold portal, iron guts, protection from chaos/evil/good/law/shield, appraising touch, comprehend languages, critical strike, detect secret doors, detect undead, golem strike, guided shot, identify, insightful feint, instant locksmith, instant search, know protections, lesser deflect, locate city, locate water, mage craft, master's touch, scholar's touch, true strike, erase, expeditious retreat, feather fall, low-light vision, magic weapon, skittish nerves, swift expeditious retreat

Level 2: arcane lock, dispelling touch, gaze screen, filter, greater alarm, obscure object, protection from arrows, resist energy, balancing lorecall, discern shapechanger, chain of eyes, deflect, detect thoughts, insidious insight, listening lorecall, locate object, see invisibility, sense weakness, sure strike, cat's grace, darkvision, fox's cunning, knock, owl's wisdom, swim, scent, spider climb, whispering wind, wings of cover

Class abilities:
Level 1: option: trapfinding or track
Level 2: evasion
Level 3: option: trap sense +1 or favored enemy; advanced/eclectic learning (as beguiler/warmage)
Level 4: uncanny dodge; Walking the Path of Destiny
...

Walking the Path of Destiny - (Modified from above)
Once per week, while traveling to a particular, known location, the seer and up to 1 individual per seer class level can travel a Path of Destiny. The travel time can last up to 1 hour per seer class level.

The Path of Destiny can involve any form of travel. However, the path cannot traverse the dwelling or private property of any unwilling third party. For example, a common passage in the underdark may be travelled through but a dungeon inhabibited by goblins may not. A city may be travelled through, including ports and other stations. A hired ship may be used on the travel. But the seer may not use the Path of Destiny to enter another person's house, or a warehouse, temple, etc.

During the Path of Destiny the seer's companions cannot get lost. Thier gear cannot be lost or stolen. Weather and terrain effects are ignored.

They will not any encounter any person or creature that does not know the seer or a member of his party and has not deliberately set out to find the seer or his party.

Similarly they will not encounter any trap or obstacle not left by person or creature that does not know the seer or a member of his party and has not deliberately set the trap or obstacle for the seer or his party.

Edit:...hmm...the class is perhaps looking too good...