When did OotS start its focus on plot more than D&D mechanics?

[Endarire]

Rich mentioned the transition from rules-heavy to plot-heavy. Which strips mark the boundaries?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Rich mentioned the transition from rules-heavy to plot-heavy. Which strips mark the boundaries?

For me, I would say it's when Nale put a sword through Elan's chest :smalleek:

[Sequinox]

To me, it's more of a gradual change, so it would be incredibly difficult to pin one particular strip as the exact strip. I'd have to reread the entire comic and then guess to do it, really.

[Jagos]

Number 13. When Giant decided to make the reason they were in a dungeon, there went the rules and here came the story on a choo-choo train.

[xyzzy]

Either around the end of book 1 or at the crayon segment both seem likely, depending on your interpretation of things. The first because that's when most of the plot begins to form, and the latter because it's when we as readers become aware of the main plot.

[Optimystik]

It would have to be after Miko's first fight with the Order, because Rich was still writing in tune with D&D mechanics enough to explain how that fight went in full game context.

[DBJack]

I think the plot was more important than poking fun at mechanics well before the Miko fight, although that fight was one strip where mechanics came out front.

I think that Elan's impalement was the first true indication, although, as I recall, the comic was orginally going to have a group of 6 mis-matched adventurers wander around a generic dungeon while making fun of some of the stranger aspects of mechanics, until the Giant realized he could do much more with a simple plot to give the strip some continuity and so Xykon hopped on in, what, strip 13?, and at about the introduction of Nale it began to turn around.

[Kurald Galain]

I think the plot was more important than poking fun at mechanics well before the Miko fight,

I agree. The change happened pretty early - OOTS was not a gag-a-day comic for long.

[kpenguin]

I agree. The change happened pretty early - OOTS was not a gag-a-day comic for long.

I think in Dungeon Crawling Fools, Rich said that the plot really began to come underway during the first LG story.

[Thanatosia]

If I had to chose a single point to mark as crossing the threshold, I'd say it was the Crayons of Time where the over-arcing meta-plot was revealed.

Note that that is the transition from D&D humor to a specific plot as the primary focus. The Gag-a-day thing went out very very early in dungeon crawling fools, about the instant they opened the door and discovered the Linear Guild. But even when the gag of the day format was set aside for a heavier plot focus, the plot was still pretty much secondary to D&D jokes throughout the countryside adventures IMO until the Crayon Exposition.

[Ichneumon]

If I had to chose a single point to mark as crossing the threshold, I'd say it was the Crayons of Time where the over-arcing meta-plot was revealed.

Note that that is the transition from D&D humor to a specific plot as the primary focus. The Gag-a-day thing went out very very early in dungeon crawling fools, about the instant they opened the door and discovered the Linear Guild. But even when the gag of the day format was set aside for a heavier plot focus, the plot was still pretty much secondary to D&D jokes throughout the countryside adventures IMO until the Crayon Exposition.

I agree. As of page 13 we've had a plot, but it was still very RPG/D&D-centric, although not technically having to do with mechanics, it was in essence just another way of making fun with/of the genre. It wasn't until after the first book that the story, at least from the reader's perspective, became something more "unique" and original and started to have a more central part of the comic on its own.

[Prowl]

No one expects the Crayon Exposition!

[pita]

No one expects the Crayon Exposition!

That was the best non Pratchett pun I've heard. You, Prowl, are indeed wise.
Thank you good sir.

[Zevox]

I'd agree that it's been a gradual change, not anything that can pinned down to any one moment. My take on it would be:

For the first few strips, there was no plot, just a gag-a-day strip. Then in strip 13, we get a plot introduced, but it is minimal and changes little. The plot takes on increased importance when Nale and the Linear Guild are introduced. Roughly, I'd say other times where the plot gained increased importance would be after the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, with the introduction of the Fixing Roy's Sword/Starmetal subplot and the foreshadowing of Miko, plus the first short story arc with the Bandits; when Miko met the Order; when the overall plot was introduced by Shojo in the Crayons of Time; and during the arc where Nale infiltrated the Order, Haley got her voice back, and she and Elan got together as a couple (that one was when drama in the story started to pick up in my mind). Ever since then we've been more or less where we are now, with the humor generally secondary to the plot, and occasionally to drama.

Zevox

[Captain Alien]

In the second arc, there were still many D&D joke based strips, while in War & XP's there were few, maybe none. Now it is totally Plot-Focused.

[Draz74]

Nobody's mentioned Episode #15, where Eugene first appears and prophecies about the Linear Guild encounter to Roy.

Not only was this the first strip that actually required the author to have planned something of the story ahead of time, it was also the introduction of the Greenhilt family dynamic that has turned out to be a huge influence on the characters' development.

Episode #153, "Priorities," seems like a major point to me too, even though it seems like a lighthearted gag when you just read it over. Roy's first real character development, as the #1 protagonist, was his struggle over wanting to rescue Elan from the bandits, and this was the first we saw of that inner struggle. Coincidentally, it's kind of also where we start to see hints of Haley's feelings for Elan.

Of course the Crayon Exposition (great pun!) was a huge moment for the audience, in realizing what the overall plot was going to be about. But it's clear the author already had the crayon stuff worked out quite a bit earlier. Still, it deserves a mention.

[archon_huskie]

The change has been gradual.

[Larkspur]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Durkon/Hilgya's breakup yet- that was the first time the plot stopped being a framework on which to hang the D&D gags and was meant to have actual emotional resonance (along with D&D gags).

[Squark]

That was the best non Pratchett pun I've heard. You, Prowl, are indeed wise.
Thank you good sir.

Seconded.


All in all, I'd have to go with the crayons of time too. Although, recently, mechanics-punchlines, have all but disapeered, replaced with a bit more universal humor and lampshading/other ways of playing with literary tropes.

[Prowl]

I live to serve!

Anyway, I'd give the Giant a break here, I mean, how many actually funny D&D rules jokes are there really, before you have to start recycling material? Coming on 700 strips now, it's just not practical to get a real good zinger in every one.

I'd imagine the audience has evolved over time to one less focused on expert D&D rules nerds and more on the storytelling.

[Optimystik]

I think the plot was more important than poking fun at mechanics well before the Miko fight, although that fight was one strip where mechanics came out front.

That's just it; during that fight he was still giving the plot and mechanics equal weight, otherwise why bother statting it out and putting it in D&D terms the way he did?

The OP's question was "when did the plot get MORE focus?" which must have happened after that point.

[Forbiddenwar]

No one expects the Crayon Exposition!

Can I sig this? Its one of the better jokes on the forum

[Jackson]

That's just it; during that fight he was still giving the plot and mechanics equal weight, otherwise why bother statting it out and putting it in D&D terms the way he did?
He may still be statting out the combat if he needs to work out what happens; since nobody actually rolls, doing this won't make much of a difference. I'm not sure that doing that means that the focus is balanced. A more telling marker would be when he started determining the powers of spells by the needs of the plot rather than strict adherence to the spell description, which is still more recent. I'd like to add that I, at least, don't mean 'by the needs of plot' to have any negative weight here.

The idea of actually rolling for the characters, rather than just figuring out how something could work within the rules to give the desired result, brings up an interesting idea: anybody here read The Man in the High Castle? PKD threw the I Ching to develop the plot there. Could be interesting. Of course, within D&D mechanics it could royally screw your characters and plotting, but it could be an interesting, if time-intensive, exercise. It worked out well for The Man in the High Castle, but I don't think any other PKD novel was plotted out that way.

EDIT: Apparently, because of the censoring program on the forums, I can't write out the full name of the author of the aforementioned novel. Shame on you people.

[Nimrod's Son]

You could always type "Philip K. ****", which comes out as "Philip K. ****".

Pointlessly fiddly, I know, but it works.

It goes without saying that I do not advocate using this technique to write actual naughty words. :smallamused:

[ericgrau]

The moment Miko showed up; or as soon as OotS learned about the gates if you don't count planning and lead-ins. There was plot before that point and rules jokes afterwards, but that is exactly when the strip started becoming much more plot heavy instead of merely extracting some plot bits from "Hey, let's go kill the evil lich and take his loot."

[ref]

Rich mentioned the transition from rules-heavy to plot-heavy. Which strips mark the boundaries?

Well... you film a tadpole continuously, and after one month of a filming... tada! It's a frog. What frame marks the boundaries?

[Sylian]

43, when they met the Linear Guild.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html

[Cleverdan22]

43, when they met the Linear Guild.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html

Yeah, this would be the closest to the actual strip where the plot really came into effect. Almost 13, but that could have just been showing who their objective was, just like any dungeon.

Of course, in the book, Rich stated that he thought of doing a long story pretty soon after he started the comic.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The moment Miko showed up; or as soon as OotS learned about the gates if you don't count planning and lead-ins.

That, IMO, is when plot began to exceed D&D rules.

[Morgan Wick]

I think in Dungeon Crawling Fools, Rich said that the plot really began to come underway during the first LG story.

That would jive with my analysis (http://morganwick.blogspot.com/2008/08/for-some-reason-i-thought-i-had-already.html).

Oddly, I originally planned to come into this thread to suggest I was maybe backing off that position. I dug up the old FAQ - the one the current FAQ is an update to - and one of the questions is: "Will they ever get out of the dungeon?" and Rich mentions "there's too much good wilderness gags to pass up". One of the reasons I backed the LG arc for the beginning of the plot was because the end of Book 1 seemingly completely overturned the book's premise. If the start of Book 2 is still part of the "dungeon crawling" era, just a different "dungeon", that makes claims for Miko's arrival or the revelation of the Snarl as the tipping point seem more likely. I, however, would still back the lengthy interlude with Team Evil right before 200, which among other things, hinted at much of the plot that would only become fleshed out in the session with Shojo.

If I had to pick a moment when the strip became all about plot, and not just D&D jokes, my guess would be sometime during the incident at the inn. Maybe when Haley got all cryptogrammy?


It would have to be after Miko's first fight with the Order, because Rich was still writing in tune with D&D mechanics enough to explain how that fight went in full game context.

Didn't Rich make a whole thread to explain the game mechanics involved in the Miko fight after she bisected Shojo? Did plot not take over the strip until then?

[AlexanderRM]

As many have said, it's a gradual change. If I had to, I'd say it started changing in the noted strip 13 and the even-more-noted Crayon Exposition was the... ending? That was the most recent specific moment where we come close to where we are now, though we've still had a lot of gradual change since then.




No one expects the Crayon Exposition!

You know, most people say "sigging this" to express how awesome something is, and then don't sig it. I'll let my sig speak for itself.