Initiator levels and bloodlines

[quick_comment]

Bloodlines stack for your initiator level. Do they also increase the highest level maneuver you can learn? Unlike spellcasters, the highest level maneuver a martial adept can learn is dictated by his initiator level.

[Salt_Crow]

Bloodlines stack for your initiator level. Do they also increase the highest level maneuver you can learn? Unlike spellcasters, the highest level maneuver a martial adept can learn is dictated by his initiator level.

I guess so, seeing you still get higher-level manoeuvres by adding 1/2 levels in other classes too.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Do they also increase the highest level maneuver you can learn?

Yes; the only determinant for the level you can learn is your IL, so anything that gets you to a certain IL lets you learn higher-level maneuvers.

[BobVosh]

Bloodlines? Is this in ToB? One of these days I will read that book :/

Is it like dragonmarks, or sorcerer bloodlines?

[AstralFire]

Bloodlines? Is this in ToB? One of these days I will read that book :/

Is it like dragonmarks, or sorcerer bloodlines?

It's like Level Adjustment, but not as terrible. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)

[Wings of Peace]

It's like Level Adjustment, but not as terrible. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)

It's like level adjustment if level adjustment allowed you to rape the game and then pass it off to your buddy for sloppy seconds.

[Haven]

Am I missing something about bloodlines? What makes them so much better than LA? The abilities don't seem that great really.

[Kylarra]

Am I missing something about bloodlines? What makes them so much better than LA? The abilities don't seem that great really.
It continues class ability progression

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

[Wings of Peace]

To elaborate more thoroughly on what Klyarra has said think of it in terms of prc's and skills that cap with the class. Binders and Initiators combine their total initiator/binder levels from all related classes. So a Warblade 1/Sword Sage 1/Crusader 1/Bloodline 3 would have an initiator level of 12 assuming I did my math right. 9 if I did my math wrong. And that counts prcs so effectively every new class adds 3 to the total initiator level even if you only take 1 actual level in said class. Same for Binders and binder prcs. It also scales abilities based on class level Hellfire Blast so that they can be taken beyond the normal limits. I think they might also work for Manifester level but I can't promise that one as I haven't checked.

[Haven]

It continues class ability progression

Ohhh. Nice!

[Teron]

It gives you the equivalent of Practiced Spellcaster (and similar benefits for other classes with level based calculations) that counts for your pseudo LA (whereas the feat itself is limited by HD). Hardly game-breaking, but it keeps spellcasters from being quite as crippled as they are by actual LA.

Cloury, I'm afraid you've got it entirely wrong. Bloodlines don't make you better than a straight member of a class in any way; they just keep you from falling quite so far behind. A swordsage 10/wizard 4 with a minor bloodline (one lost level, making him ECL 15) has an initiator level of 13 and a caster level of 5, whereas without the bloodline "level" they would be 12 and 4 respectively. As I said, it's like Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster,) for bloodline levels instead of non caster HD, with similar (though generally lesser) benefits for some other classes.


For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

Note that the example is slightly misleading because the DC for Stunning Fist is actually based on your total level rather than just your monk level, but you should get the idea.

[Wings of Peace]

It gives you the equivalent of Practiced Spellcaster (and similar benefits for other classes with level based calculations) that counts for your pseudo LA (whereas the feat itself is limited by HD). Hardly game-breaking, but it keeps spellcasters from being quite as crippled as they are by actual LA.

Cloury, I'm afraid you've got it entirely wrong. Bloodlines don't make you better than a straight member of a class in any way; they just keep you from falling quite so far behind. A swordsage 10/wizard 4 with a minor bloodline (one lost level, making him ECL 15) has an initiator level of 13 and a caster level of 5, whereas without the bloodline "level" they would be 12 and 4 respectively. As I said, it's like Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster,) for bloodline levels instead of non caster HD, with similar (though generally lesser) benefits for some other classes.


Note that the example is slightly misleading because the DC for Stunning Fist is actually based on your total level rather than just your monk level, but you should get the idea.

Quoth the srd:

"Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level)."

and

"If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. "

Binders and Initiators add their class levels together when calculating their Binder/Initiator level. For Binders this would come mostly from prcs. Unless Binding/Initiating is not a character ability somehow this would mean that the Bloodline levels would add to each Binding/Initiating class and since in the case of these classes their levels all combine together to determine their total EBL/EIL what we get from 3 levels of Bloodline is a +3 EBL/EIL per Binding/Initiating class.

[BobVosh]

Seems like an easy fix would be "this can not raise any effective levels above your ECL."

[Wings of Peace]

Seems like an easy fix would be "this can not raise any effective levels above your ECL."

This is true. I was primarily pointing out their reason for being mechanically abusable than anything else

[Teron]

I'm too tired at this point to figure out if the text can really be read that way, but surely you don't think that's a reasonable interpretation? We're not even talking RAW versus RAI, just a sensible interpretation of RAW against a ridiculous one.

You've got one binder/initiator/whatever level as a result of your combined classes, and bloodlines add to it like appropriate class levels. A swordsage 8/ rogue 4/bloodline 2 has a swordsage IL of 8 + 4/2 + 2 = 12, not (8 + 2) + (4/2 + 2) = 14. The rogue levels aren't some distinct progression that happens to synergize with the swordsage levels and gets boosted independantly by the bloodline; they're both additions to a single value, that being the swordsage IL. If those were warblade levels instead of rogue, the character would have two distinct ILs, each counting the bloodline, but they don't build on each other in any way beyond the standard 1 per 2 levels.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm too tired at this point to figure out if the text can really be read that way, but surely you don't think that's a reasonable interpretation? We're not even talking RAW versus RAI, just a sensible interpretation of RAW against a ridiculous one.

You've got one binder/initiator/whatever level as a result of your combined classes, and bloodlines add to it like appropriate class levels. A swordsage 8/ rogue 4/bloodline 2 has a swordsage IL of 8 + 4/2 + 2 = 12, not (8 + 2) + (4/2 + 2) = 14. The rogue levels aren't some distinct progression that happens to synergize with the swordsage levels and gets boosted independantly by the bloodline; they're both additions to a single value, that being the swordsage IL. If those were warblade levels instead of rogue, the character would have two distinct ILs, each counting the bloodline, but they don't build on each other in any way beyond the standard 1 per 2 levels.

Honestly I do not make the RAI a concern when discussing mechanics beyond their likely purpose of intent as when debating mechanics the only way to have a common ground is to go by what is written. What is written is that characters with 3 levels in a Bloodline gain those levels to all class level based abilities. Even a Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Bloodline 3 would still not assuming prcs cheeze in count as a Warblade 3/Crusader 3/Sword Sage 3/Bloodline 3 aka Warblade 4/Crusader 4/Sword Sage 4. Given that Initiator prcs do not advance a particular classes Initiator level but rather state they merely add to the full initiator level by RAI they are not extensions but additional Initiating classes unto themself and thus any Initiating prc would also be a +4 from level 1.

For example assuming we took all possible options we would have a Crusader 1/Sword Sage 1/Warblade 1/Eternal Blade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Master of the Nine 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Cleric 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/ Bloodline 3 would be for EIL as a

Crusader 4/Sword Sage 4/Warblade 4/Eternal Blade 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Master of the Nine 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 4/Shadow Sun Ninja 4 for a grand EIL of 18 at level 12 in any given one of our initiating classes. And this is if you are liberal and assume the Bloodline bonus to the prcs gets halved as with the base classes.

Not as broken as things that can be done with mages but still a reasonable exploit considering if taken to 20 you're initiating at an epic level in at least 1 of your classes if not all of them. Do I think it was intended know? Do I even think game makers had Bloodlines in their heads when they wrote the rules in ToB and ToM no. But mechanically from a RAW perspective it is more than arguable.

[Teron]

I tried to compose at least a placeholder response, but the slightly lacking grammar and punctuation of your latest post is making it difficult to wrap my sleep-deprived mind around it. I don't mean to be rude, but I'll have to come back to this later.

Maybe someone can contribute another opinion in the meantime...

[Wings of Peace]

I tried to compose at least a placeholder response, but the slightly lacking grammar and punctuation of your latest post is making it difficult to wrap my sleep-deprived mind around it. I don't mean to be rude, but I'll have to come back to this later.

Maybe someone can contribute another opinion in the meantime...

I'm operating on sleep deprivation as well hence why my grammar is probably suffering. I'm fine with agreeing to debate this another time.

[AstralFire]

It's like level adjustment if level adjustment allowed you to rape the game and then pass it off to your buddy for sloppy seconds.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about a potential abuse from a munchkin trying to eke every last drop of usability from it. I have had enough RAW silliness the last few days, I'm more interested in having discussions of what's going to actually fly or actually be tried. Just because they have compatibility issues when absolutely stretched with a later supplement that had no reason to consider those variant rules, doesn't change the fact that they're the best way to use the level adjustment or similar mechanic in your game for the most part. LA purchase has uneven results for the strong LA 1s and 2s and lets them get an XP boost that catches them up.

[quick_comment]

I just wanted to know if they boosted the highest level maneuver you could learn, or if they just increased the minor IL dependant things. No DM in the entire world is going to allow you do count the bloodline towards every class and then add them together.

[AstralFire]

I just wanted to know if they boosted the highest level maneuver you could learn, or if they just increased the minor IL dependant things. No DM in the entire world is going to allow you do count the bloodline towards every class and then add them together.

They boost the highest level you can learn.

I count the bloodline towards every class, sorta. If you're a Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader, when you're taking levels in the relevant class, you get to add the bloodline to your levels in that class for purposes of your highest level maneuver. However, it doesn't add to your IL in the other two classes for that level-up.

[HamHam]

To elaborate more thoroughly on what Klyarra has said think of it in terms of prc's and skills that cap with the class. Binders and Initiators combine their total initiator/binder levels from all related classes. So a Warblade 1/Sword Sage 1/Crusader 1/Bloodline 3 would have an initiator level of 12 assuming I did my math right.

This is utterly not true. Each martial class tracks initiator level separately, and counts other martial classes as 1/2 initiator level, just like normal classes.

So your example there would have an initiator level of 5 in all three classes.

[Darrin]

So your example there would have an initiator level of 5 in all three classes.

Not exactly.

Warblade IL = 4 (Warblade 1 + Bloodline 3) + 2 (Swordsage 0.5 + Bloodline 1.5) + 2 (Crusader 0.5 + Bloodline 1.5) = 8.

If the 3 bloodline levels themselves count as non-Warblade levels, then it would be 1.5 higher, or IL = 9.5. (I've never been able to figure out if they count for this or not.)

Swordsage and Crusader would have the same IL, either 8 or 9.5.

[Sucrose]

I don't think that's right.

The section for bloodlines states

"If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. " (Italics mine)

It does not say that they are actually considered to be levels of the class. Thus, I don't think you'd add the 1.5 from each of the other two classes. By my logic, it would be:

Warblade IL=4(Warblade 1+ Bloodline 3)+0.5(Swordsage level)+0.5(Crusader level)=5.

[HamHam]

Not exactly.

Warblade IL = 4 (Warblade 1 + Bloodline 3) + 2 (Swordsage 0.5 + Bloodline 1.5) + 2 (Crusader 0.5 + Bloodline 1.5) = 8.

If the 3 bloodline levels themselves count as non-Warblade levels, then it would be 1.5 higher, or IL = 9.5. (I've never been able to figure out if they count for this or not.)

Swordsage and Crusader would have the same IL, either 8 or 9.5.

You don't count them twice. They aren't real levels.

[Woodsman]

A swordsage 10/ crusader 10 would have an EIL of 15 for both.

To simplify.

[Indon]

This is true. I was primarily pointing out their reason for being mechanically abusable than anything else

Sounds like a character who took 1 level in multiple classes could gain a lot out of it.

Of course, you're still a character who's taken one level in multiple classes - so, what precisely is the problem?

[Darrin]

You don't count them twice. They aren't real levels.

That's the part that makes my head hurt.

Do they count towards ECL? If I go up Warblade 3 + Bloodline 1, how much XP do I spend on the Bloodline level? After that, do I count as a 4th level character? How much XP do I need to go up to Warblade 4? What happens when I lose a level via energy drain?

Ugh. I wish UA had explained how they work better.

[Woodsman]

Do they count towards ECL? If I go up Warblade 3 + Bloodline 1, how much XP do I spend on the Bloodline level? After that, do I count as a 4th level character? How much XP do I need to go up to Warblade 4? What happens when I lose a level via energy drain?

Yes, they count towards ECL. You spend enough XP to level up to gain a bloodline level. You count as a fourth-level character. To get to Warblade four, you need enough XP to get to ECL 5. You lose the last level gained (My thoughts on it, anyway), so you'd be treated as Warblade 3/Bloodline 1.

[Kylarra]

That's the part that makes my head hurt.

Do they count towards ECL? If I go up Warblade 3 + Bloodline 1, how much XP do I spend on the Bloodline level? After that, do I count as a 4th level character? How much XP do I need to go up to Warblade 4? What happens when I lose a level via energy drain?

Ugh. I wish UA had explained how they work better.
1. Yes.
2. The same you'd normally spend on a 4th level in anything. (3000 or 6k total)
3. Yes
4. The same you'd normally need to get to ecl 5 (4000 or 10k total)
5. Same thing that normally happens.


A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't think that's right.

The section for bloodlines states

"If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities. " (Italics mine)

It does not say that they are actually considered to be levels of the class. Thus, I don't think you'd add the 1.5 from each of the other two classes. By my logic, it would be:

Warblade IL=4(Warblade 1+ Bloodline 3)+0.5(Swordsage level)+0.5(Crusader level)=5.

Alright I've some sleep in me now so hopefully my coherency skill has returned to normal.

Quoth the SRD:


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level).


If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

Quoth the Tome of Battle:


For example, a 7th-level crusader/5th-level swordsage
has an initiator level of 9th for determining the highestlevel
maneuvers he can take as a crusader. As a result, he
can take 5th-level crusader maneuvers. As a swordsage, his
initiator level is 8th, allowing him to take 4th-level swordsage
maneuvers.
This process applies to all of a character’s levels, whether
they are in martial adept classes or other classes.

I feel this is more than reasonable evidence to say that the Bloodline levels not only boost Initiator level in this case but they do indeed apply to each Initiator class taken. In the last quote I only included the preceding paragraph to better give those without a book an idea of the context of the quote.

Edit: I actually like the way this works with regards to Binders at the least. Though it's a shaky slope if applied this way there is something I like about the idea of a man who's unnatural heritage grant him greater power when making occult pacts with equally unnatural. But that is entirely a fluff stance on my part.

[HamHam]

I feel this is more than reasonable evidence to say that the Bloodline levels not only boost Initiator level in this case but they do indeed apply to each Initiator class taken. In the last quote I only included the preceding paragraph to better give those without a book an idea of the context of the quote.

Edit: I actually like the way this works with regards to Binders at the least. Though it's a shaky slope if applied this way there is something I like about the idea of a man who's unnatural heritage grant him greater power when making occult pacts with equally unnatural. But that is entirely a fluff stance on my part.

Bloodline levels are not class levels. They count as class levels whenever you would need to count the number of class levels of a given class.

Again using the Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Sword Sage 1/ Bloodline 3 example, from the ToB:


If you are a multiclass martial adept [sic] determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes

Initiator level is an ability dependent on class level, and thus bloodlines will count towards that total. So for your Warblade side, you count as a level 4 Warblade for determining the first part of that formula.

But when you want to count up the total levels you have in other classes, the answer is 2 because bloodline levels are not levels in a class and thus it only sees the Swordsage and Crusader levels.

So the final result is 5.

[Wings of Peace]

Bloodline levels are not class levels. They count as class levels whenever you would need to count the number of class levels of a given class.

Again using the Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Sword Sage 1/ Bloodline 3 example, from the ToB:



Initiator level is an ability dependent on class level, and thus bloodlines will count towards that total. So for your Warblade side, you count as a level 4 Warblade for determining the first part of that formula.

But when you want to count up the total levels you have in other classes, the answer is 2 because bloodline levels are not levels in a class and thus it only sees the Swordsage and Crusader levels.

So the final result is 5.

Except that Bloodlines apply to -all- classes in the case of multi-class characters. So a Crusader 1/Sword Sage 1/Warblade 1/Bloodline 3 would count for any particular of the three as a X4+(Y4+Z4)/2

So for example Crusader 1/Sword Sage 1/Warblade 1/Bloodline 3 would initiate for Crusader at an IL of 8. 4+(4+4)/2 = 4+4 = 8

[HamHam]

Except that Bloodlines apply to -all- classes in the case of multi-class characters.

For the purpose of abilities of those classes dependent on class level. Not any and every measure of how many class levels you have.

By your logic, this character has an ECL of 12 because he has three levels in three classes and 3 bloodline levels.

[Wings of Peace]

For the purpose of abilities of those classes dependent on class level. Not any and every measure of how many class levels you have.

By your logic, this character has an ECL of 12 because he has three levels in three classes and 3 bloodline levels.

No that is not my logic. ECL is an entirely different matter altogether and I would need you to explain to me where you are drawing that conclusion. All that Bloodlines do is advance abilities that are dependent on class level. The quote I cited early even mentioned Caster Level. What mechanically is occurring here is no different from caster level except that mechanically multiple Initiating classes stack while Caster Level classes do not.

[HamHam]

No that is not my logic. ECL is an entirely different matter altogether and I would need you to explain to me where you are drawing that conclusion. All that Bloodlines do is advance abilities that are dependent on class level. The quote I cited early even mentioned Caster Level. What mechanically is occurring here is no different from caster level except that mechanically multiple Initiating classes stack while Caster Level classes do not.

Initiating classes don't stack. For any given initiator level, levels in other classes count for half. A bloodline is not a class, and thus does not count. The specific bonus of the bloodline level (that it adds toward class level dependent abilities) will apply to your levels in the initiator class. And that's it.

[Wings of Peace]

Initiating classes don't stack. For any given initiator level, levels in other classes count for half. A bloodline is not a class, and thus does not count. The specific bonus of the bloodline level (that it adds toward class level dependent abilities) will apply to your levels in the initiator class. And that's it.

I posted this quote earlier so I am mildly unhappy I need to repost it as that means you did not read one of my central arguments before responding unless I have misinterpreted what you are saying.

From Tome of Battle:


For example, a 7th-level crusader/5th-level swordsage
has an initiator level of 9th for determining the highestlevel
maneuvers he can take as a crusader. As a result, he
can take 5th-level crusader maneuvers. As a swordsage, his
initiator level is 8th, allowing him to take 4th-level swordsage
maneuvers.
This process applies to all of a character’s levels, whether
they are in martial adept classes or other classes.

That is taken from the chapter of Tome of Battle that deals explicitly with Initiator level. I think it is very safe to take this as meaning that while the rate of stacking is not 1:1 initiator classes do still stack their levels together for determining what they can and cannot learn.

[HamHam]

I posted this quote earlier so I am mildly unhappy I need to repost it as that means you did not read one of my central arguments before responding unless I have misinterpreted what you are saying.

That is taken from the chapter of Tome of Battle that deals explicitly with Initiator level. I think it is very safe to take this as meaning that while the rate of stacking is not 1:1 initiator classes do still stack their levels together for determining what they can and cannot learn.

No, it means that your levels in other classes count half for determining your initiator level in a specific class. Just like it explains in the paragraph before that one.

[Wings of Peace]

No, it means that your levels in other classes count half for determining your initiator level in a specific class. Just like it explains in the paragraph before that one.

The example given shows two -Initiating- classes multiclassed together. Rounded down and divided by two they are adding to each other's Initiating levels for learning maneuvers. Notably in that example both classes of the character gain the ability to take higher level maneuvers than they could before. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on right now.

[Sucrose]

I posted this quote earlier so I am mildly unhappy I need to repost it as that means you did not read one of my central arguments before responding unless I have misinterpreted what you are saying.

From Tome of Battle:



That is taken from the chapter of Tome of Battle that deals explicitly with Initiator level. I think it is very safe to take this as meaning that while the rate of stacking is not 1:1 initiator classes do still stack their levels together for determining what they can and cannot learn.

He did not misread; I'd go so far as to say that you have. Levels from other initiator classes stack no more than levels in noninitiator classes. Thus, it is class level, and not initiator level, in your other initiator classes, which determines what you add to initiator level. Since bloodline levels are explicitly not level in your classes, but a weird nonlevel, you add them to your initiator level, do not get to add them to the class level you use to determine the bonus gotten from your other classes.

Thus, the initiator level that your hypothetical 6th level character has in each of his initiating classes is 1(class level)+3(bloodline)+0.5(other class 1)+0.5(other class 2)=5.

[Wings of Peace]

He did not misread; I'd go so far as to say that you have. Levels from other initiator classes stack no more than levels in noninitiator classes. Thus, it is class level, and not initiator level, in your other initiator classes, which determines what you add to initiator level. Since bloodline levels are explicitly not level in your classes, but a weird nonlevel, you add them to your initiator level, do not get to add them to the class level you use to determine the bonus gotten from your other classes.

Thus, the initiator level that your hypothetical 6th level character has in each of his initiating classes is 1(class level)+3(bloodline)+0.5(other class 1)+0.5(other class 2)=5.

If the Initiator level does not matter but rather only the characters class levels when determining his Initiator level then I do not see how that weakens my point. If anything that would strengthen my point as this would mean the SRD Text:


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels

and


If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

would argue that any class gains the bonus of Bloodlines to IL. If IL is based only on class levels and Bloodlines apply a +3 to all class levels for the purpose of abilities dependent on class levels then any 1 level dip would qualify for the purpose of Initiator Level as an additional +4 levels or +2 IL. What it sounds to me that we are disagreeing on is how Bloodlines distribute themselves among a multi-class character when determining his IL.

In my interpretation the Bloodline +3 to class level bonus applies to every class. Thus for multiclassing purposes a Initiator A+Dip B+Dip C+Dip D+Bloodline 3 would apply his Bloodline bonus to each of the dips as well in accordance with the second SRD quote. For purposes of IL this would as I said earlier mean a +2 to IL per dip and an additional +3 IL to the base initiator. This does not raise the character ECL in any way only his EIL as his EIL is based on total class levels it seems (I was mistaken on this before you are correct however it does not necessarily nullify my point.)

[HamHam]

No. That second quote about bloodlines does not mean what you think it means. It just means that all classes you have will count bloodlines as levels in that class for determining that classes abilities. It does not mean that they count the bloodlines as levels in that class and then counts them again as levels in every other class you have.

You are wrong by RAW, RAI, and any sane DM will punt you out the door for even suggesting this.

[Demons_eye]

I wouldn't I read it same as he does.

[Sucrose]

If the Initiator level does not matter but rather only the characters class levels when determining his Initiator level then I do not see how that weakens my point. If anything that would strengthen my point as this would mean the SRD Text:



and



would argue that any class gains the bonus of Bloodlines to IL. If IL is based only on class levels and Bloodlines apply a +3 to all class levels for the purpose of abilities dependent on class levels then any 1 level dip would qualify for the purpose of Initiator Level as an additional +4 levels or +2 IL. What it sounds to me that we are disagreeing on is how Bloodlines distribute themselves among a multi-class character when determining his IL.

In my interpretation the Bloodline +3 to class level bonus applies to every class. Thus for multiclassing purposes a Initiator A+Dip B+Dip C+Dip D+Bloodline 3 would apply his Bloodline bonus to each of the dips as well in accordance with the second SRD quote. For purposes of IL this would as I said earlier mean a +2 to IL per dip and an additional +3 IL to the base initiator. This does not raise the character ECL in any way only his EIL as his EIL is based on total class levels it seems (I was mistaken on this before you are correct however it does not necessarily nullify my point.)

Ugh... I think you've actually convinced me. "Character ability based on class levels" could reasonably be taken to include the niche case of initiator level of other classes. I thought that the relevant quote said "class ability," which would argue against your stance, and for mine. So, you're right, I, at least, failed to read enough.

That said, I'm houseruling that if it ever comes up in one of my games.:smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

No. That second quote about bloodlines does not mean what you think it means. It just means that all classes you have will count bloodlines as levels in that class for determining that classes abilities. It does not mean that they count the bloodlines as levels in that class and then counts them again as levels in every other class you have.

You are wrong by RAW, RAI, and any sane DM will punt you out the door for even suggesting this.

I never argued it was correct by RAI or that any DM would allow this to be playable. I do not believe however that the RAW is completely closed either I think we merely have two different interpretations of it. There is no part of the RAW that explicitly denies my reading of it. If anything I would argue that it favors my reading as by RAW.


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels

and


If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

There is no part of the text that explicitly states the Bloodline abilities apply only to each individual class's abilities. If anything the fact it says any "Character" ability I would argue would from a completely literal reading rule in my favor. I believe this is because at the time of writing Bloodlines a mechanic like Initiator level was not present and was not a concern. But I would also accept that reading things exactly as they are written it can be interpreted either way.

[HamHam]

If you want to be literal, initiator level is based on "level in the class" which is not the same thing as "class level". So Bloodlines wouldn't apply at all. Or rather, since they are described as "levels of 'bloodline'" in UA, you would count them for only half.

Also, "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level" so a character with no maneuver granting classes would not count them at all because their initiator level "is equal to 1/2 your character level".

[Wings of Peace]

If you want to be literal, initiator level is based on "level in the class" which is not the same thing as "class level". So Bloodlines wouldn't apply at all. Or rather, since they are described as "levels of 'bloodline'" in UA, you would count them for only half.

Also, "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level" so a character with no maneuver granting classes would not count them at all because their initiator level "is equal to 1/2 your character level".

I would ask you to cite where you are drawing that conclusion from on your first point as by my reading of Tome of Battle they are the same.

To your second point we do not care about Character Level only the character's effective level with regards to abilities (Not to be confused with ECL which ties in with hit dice etc). A Crusader 1/Rogue 1/Bloodline 3 by what I have quotes literally would qualify for all character abilities as a Crusader 4/Rogue 4. Unless you are going to argue that Initiator level is not a character ability that would make his IL 6.

[HamHam]

I would ask you to cite where you are drawing that conclusion from on your first point as by my reading of Tome of Battle they are the same.

Based on what? Common sense would suggest that class levels and levels in a class would be interchangible terms, but you clearly aren't using that in this discussion so provide a rule that says that levels in a class is the same thing as class levels.

[Wings of Peace]

Based on what? Common sense would suggest that class levels and levels in a class would be interchangible terms, but you clearly aren't using that in this discussion so provide a rule that says that levels in a class is the same thing as class levels.

First, I am using literal readings quoted from the rules of which I've seen you post little. Second, I misunderstood what you were saying as I was arguing they were interchangeable terms as well hence why they work with the wording of Bloodlines.