If Celia was summoned, why was she afraid of dying in strip #603?

[Faleldir]

We really need a FAQ thread here.

[Threeshades]

As far as i recall an outsider slain on the material plane cannot return to it within the next 100 years. So that would make it quite difficult for her to see roy again before he kicks the bucket (for real)

[King of Nowhere]

It is possible that oots is using some houseruling. After all, as Haley said when dealing with the prisoner dilemma with Sabine, they keep changing how it works.
It is also possible, since they keep changing it, that Celia didn't knew; maybe nothing bad happened to her, but she figured differently

[Sanguine]

As far as i recall an outsider slain on the material plane cannot return to it within the next 100 years. So that would make it quite difficult for her to see roy again before he kicks the bucket (for real)

But when something that was summoned dies instead of actually dieing they return to there plane of Origin at full hit points.

[Alteran]

It's possible that the talisman had a Conjuration (Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling)) effect instead of Conjuration (Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)). The two would easily be confused by someone who didn't know the specifics of magic, like Celia (who didn't know the particulars of how epic magic works). It's possible that one or both is allowed. A called creature can die, unlike a summoned one.

[Threeshades]

But when something that was summoned dies instead of actually dieing they return to there plane of Origin at full hit points.

I know that, but they are not allowed to return to the material plane for a century. Maybe it even was that they ae unable to leave their plane of origin at all in the time of that century.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I know that, but they are not allowed to return to the material plane for a century. Maybe it even was that they ae unable to leave their plane of origin at all in the time of that century.I do not recall seeing this anywhere in 3rd or 4th ed. But it could well be that Celia is called as noted, infact it seems likely as there are certain things summoned creatures are not allowed to do.

[Herald Alberich]

It's possible that the talisman had a Conjuration (Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling)) effect instead of Conjuration (Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)). The two would easily be confused by someone who didn't know the specifics of magic, like Celia (who didn't know the particulars of how epic magic works). It's possible that one or both is allowed. A called creature can die, unlike a summoned one.

This makes the most sense to me, except that 1. It's Celia's own talisman, she ought to know how it works, and 2. the description you linked to implies that if she was Called, she should be able to return to her home plane without asking Haley to dismiss her.

Oh, and 3. the Summoning exemption was originally built into Cloister to allow Dorukan to summon Lirian for *ahem* activities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), and she was in the elven forest, not on another plane.

[Random832]

As far as i recall an outsider slain on the material plane cannot return to it within the next 100 years.
I think that's actually specific to fiends - or even to only one type of fiend.


It's possible that the talisman had a Conjuration (Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling)) effect instead of Conjuration (Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)).

A lot of people said that at the time (mainly because it lasted a lot longer than a nonepic Summoning should), but a Calling effect wouldn't need to be dismissed.

[Zevox]

Basically, it looks like Rich isn't sticking strictly to D&D rules when it comes to summoning magic.

Zevox

[Murdim]

... actually no :smallfrown:

(message deleted)

[derfenrirwolv]

A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible

Its possible the booty talisman requires the summoner to be the one to send them back.




Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

[kpenguin]

The effect of the talisman as well as the the effect that can bypass the Cloister has been consistently referred to as a Summoning, which suggests that that is what it is.

Whether or not Summoning works differently in OotSverse is up to debate.

[Kish]

... actually no :smallfrown:

(message deleted)
Sometimes, I wonder if Rich, at this point, deliberately makes slight changes to things like summoning rules just to aggravate the people who are bothered by him not adhering to the letter of the rules.

Celia can blink back to where she was by having Haley dismiss her, and she could have been permanently killed. The strip told us these things. It is my opinion that we should not care more than Rich does about the indicated mismatches with D&D rules; and as it happens, that means "not at all."

[Random832]

There are clearly differences in planar travel between this setting and "vanilla" - the fact that fiends, at least, appear to have an at-will plane shift ability (that makes a portal rather than just poofing them like when we've seen clerics use plane shift) between their home plane and Material, is another instance of this

[FlawedParadigm]

Frankly, it's Rich's world. If he wants to declare that strips that include rain in the last month of the year drop gummi bears instead of rain, that's how his world works. If he says someone has to tap dance for an hour before casting Imprisonment, well, then that's how it works. If we see a character in the strip who's a Weaponmaster devoted to umbrellas, and those umbrellas have a natural ability to lower spell resistance two points when they strike an enemy, then that's just the way it is.

So long as he remains more-or-less *internally* consistent, it really doesn't matter what he does in regards to the normal rules. It's his world. He can have Pun-Pun show up and lose life or death battle to the dirt farmer's wife, if he wants. :op

[GSFB]

There are two kinds of summoning. There is the Summon Monster series of spells. A monster summoned with one of these, if slain, returns to its home plane essentially unharmed. However, this is not what brough Celia in, because these spells are limited duration and would have already expired.

Then there is the general use of the word "summoning" to indicate bringing a creature from one place to your location. This could be done with any other number of spells or effects, such as a Gate spell, some sort of reverse-teleportation effect, or any number of homebrewed means.

My guess is that since the effect did not expire, it is not related to a Summon Monster spell. Therefore, Celia is likely not in a situation where, if slain, she simply reverts back to her native plane. She is probably more likely actually shifting in totatilty from one location to another, so if killed she is actually killed. She is probably free to "leave" at any time, but since the talisman brought her from another plane, she would need some form of planar travel to return. Apparently, the necessary planar travel is built in to the talisman, and it is up to the person who activated it to trigger the return.

Note - this is not a smart design. A better design would have allowed Celia to return on her own whenever she wanted to. However, as we know, there are mitigating costs associated with crafting magic items. The wizard who made it for her (probably Dorukon, but I am sure if this has ever been mentioned) probably skimped on features in order to save XP costs.

[Faleldir]

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Everything in the strip happens "because Rich says so"! Some things also happen because they make sense. They can make sense because of the RAW, or because of characterization, or dramatic necessity, or for the sake of a single joke, or any other reason, but "just because" is a very rare reason in any well-written fiction. How stupid do you think I am?

[Red XIV]

It's possible that the talisman had a Conjuration (Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling)) effect instead of Conjuration (Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)). The two would easily be confused by someone who didn't know the specifics of magic, like Celia (who didn't know the particulars of how epic magic works). It's possible that one or both is allowed. A called creature can die, unlike a summoned one.
How many times must it be specifically referred to as Summoning in the comic before people will give up on the notion that it was actually Calling? Summoning is the only non-Epic magic that can get through Cloister. Not Calling, Summoning. Celia's talisman brought her through the Cloister barrier, and thus it must be Summoning. Like she refers to it as being.

And Celia is a magic-user herself. She may be ignorant about humans' abilities (since they lack a Monster Manual entry for her to look up), but she's not ignorant about magic. She's unaware of one specific rule on Epic magic, but most non-Epic characters probably don't know that much about Epic rules. They do, however, tend to understand their own abilities fairly well. I'm quite sure that Celia knows the difference between Summoning and Calling. Hell, she probably made the talisman herself.

[Zeful]

I know that, but they are not allowed to return to the material plane for a century. Maybe it even was that they are unable to leave their plane of origin at all in the time of that century.

I'm pretty sure that's a rule from 2nd Edition, and was only limited to fiends, though I don't own the fiendish codices, where such information would be held.

[Kami2awa]

Somewhere, though I can't find it in the SRD, there is a variant rule that summoning brings a specific individual creature; if it's killed, it's killed. This really reduces the power of summoners, but on the other hand it means that the summoned creature can be a running NPC in its own right. It would make sense for the talisman to work this way, because it's keyed to specifically bring Celia, not a random sylph.

[Querzis]

So lets see: a Calling spell make no sense because she woudnt need Haley to dismiss her and a Summoning spells make no sense because absolutely no summonning spells last that freaking long.

So can we just agree that Rich very often change the rules and that its pretty stupid to still assume even after he changed the rules so many freaking times that absolutely everything that happen in the comic is in a D&D book somewhere?

You know whats really only rule in D&D? You can make your own rules and create your own stuff. Rich does that but it seems like there arent lots of DM who do that judging by some post on these forums.

[lord_khaine]

How many times must it be specifically referred to as Summoning in the comic before people will give up on the notion that it was actually Calling? Summoning is the only non-Epic magic that can get through Cloister. Not Calling, Summoning. Celia's talisman brought her through the Cloister barrier, and thus it must be Summoning. Like she refers to it as being.

And Celia is a magic-user herself. She may be ignorant about humans' abilities (since they lack a Monster Manual entry for her to look up), but she's not ignorant about magic. She's unaware of one specific rule on Epic magic, but most non-Epic characters probably don't know that much about Epic rules. They do, however, tend to understand their own abilities fairly well. I'm quite sure that Celia knows the difference between Summoning and Calling. Hell, she probably made the talisman herself.

And how many times do you need the workings of summoning and calling explained, before you finaly get that though it might be called a summoning, then by D&D terms it was actualy a calling.

Also, the part about the cloister effect being open to summoning effects comes from Celia, if she herself dont understand the difference between a summoning and a calling, then we really cant take her words as evidence of anything.

Actualy, i think the most likely explanation is that in the OOTS world the difference between calling and summoning is very tecnical, so only wizards bother with it, everyone else just call both types of magic summoning.

[FlawedParadigm]

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Everything in the strip happens "because Rich says so"! Some things also happen because they make sense. They can make sense because of the RAW, or because of characterization, or dramatic necessity, or for the sake of a single joke, or any other reason, but "just because" is a very rare reason in any well-written fiction.

You're welcome, but it must not be terribly obvious. Threads like this pop up every two or three strips, and every single time it needs to be explained to someone. I've seen it done well over a hundred times now, possibly into the two hundreds. Any time Rich mentions anything at all that references anything which might possibly be interpreted as something that showed up in a rulebook, or uses a word that shows up in a D&D glossary, whether or not he was using it in the context the glossary does, or mentions any spell/power/ability, and his mentioning of it even - in any way - does so much as suggest it might not function EXACTLY WORD FOR WORD how book whichever says it does, someone throws a hissy about it.

I remember, for example, the Control Weather argument (which led to some kind of celestial in the next strip telling Thor the spell couldn't do what it had just done, and Thor basically telling him to get stuffed), the poison arrow argument (where, two or three strips later, Rich illustrated - probably with some grumbling - exactly how and why the arrow meant to kill Hinjo missed Roy, V, Miko, or anyone else within a mile or two it could have possibly struck), and oh goodness all the kvetching about Forcecage (leading to the throwaway joke of Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage).

The point is, whether or not the reason is "just because", unless the reason becomes an actual plot point, it isn't all that relevant, and still people hound Rich mercilessly over every little ultra-nitpicky detail. I'm sure once in a great while, every 100-200 strips or so, all this nitpicking actually causes Rich to see something he let slip, and he's thankful for it, and it improves the comic. The rest of the time, it's like listening to the five year old in your back seat uselessly chanting "Are we there yet?" (I can only guess what they did before cars, when travel took even longer.)

Basically, sit back and enjoy the ride and all will be explained in good time if it's actually important, or if it bothers you that much, stop reading and it will stop bothering you. Or wait for the print versions, which usually come with those kind of nitpicks pre-solved or packaged with an answer.


How stupid do you think I am?

Don't flamebait people like that, please. You know there's no safe way for anyone to answer that and it's just begging for trouble.

[rewinn]

...it's like listening to the five year old in your back seat uselessly chanting "Are we there yet?" (I can only guess what they did before cars, when travel took even longer.)


Can you imagine Climbing the Celestial Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) with a five-year-old?

[Foryn Gilnith]

stop reading and it will stop bothering you.

I'd say the same to the people getting tired of the nitpicking. It's unreasonable to expect it to stop, confronting people won't help anything, and it's not entirely useless. Without concrete information on the narrative world, people use the closest analogue. Asking "If Celia was summoned, why was she afraid of dying in strip #603?" isn't a hissy fit, it's discussion about the author's creation; and it seems an overreaction to characterize the questioners as incessant whiners. Live and let live.

[FlawedParadigm]

Can you imagine Climbing the Celestial Mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) with a five-year-old?

Clearly impossible. That could only happen in the deepest layers of the Abyss.

[Herald Alberich]

I'd say the same to the people getting tired of the nitpicking. It's unreasonable to expect it to stop, confronting people won't help anything, and it's not entirely useless. Without concrete information on the narrative world, people use the closest analogue. Asking "If Celia was summoned, why was she afraid of dying in strip #603?" isn't a hissy fit, it's discussion about the author's creation; and it seems an overreaction to characterize the questioners as incessant whiners. Live and let live.

I was about to say the same. We're all aware that it's Rich's world and he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as it's internally consistent. One of those consistent rules is that the world operates, however loosely, on D&D rules, so whenever it breaks from them, people are going to wonder exactly in what way and by how much.

This isn't like when Sabine was revealed as a succubus, and everyone said "oh, I guess succubi have Plane Shift in this 'verse." That was a simple explanation: one additional spell-like ability. In this case, we have an effect referred to as summoning, that doesn't match up with what we know of the term, so we're trying to figure out what the differences are. The possibilities are myriad.

[Liwen]

I was about to say the same. We're all aware that it's Rich's world and he can do whatever he wants with it, as long as it's internally consistent. One of those consistent rules is that the world operates, however loosely, on D&D rules, so whenever it breaks from them, people are going to wonder exactly in what way and by how much.

This isn't like when Sabine was revealed as a succubus, and everyone said "oh, I guess succubi have Plane Shift in this 'verse." That was a simple explanation: one additional spell-like ability. In this case, we have an effect referred to as summoning, that doesn't match up with what we know of the term, so we're trying to figure out what the differences are. The possibilities are myriad.

It's only now, as I read this your post, that I realize we now know what type of fiendish creature Sabine is... It has been so long since I started wondering about this I actually forgot it was a mystery yet to be resolved.

[veti]

Why is everyone and her dog ignoring the blindingly obvious?

Dying hurts. Even if you can pop back straight away, the process of having your hit points reduced to minus ten is not a pleasant experience. Makes perfect sense to avoid it as far as possible.

Okay, so she wanted Haley to know she couldn't be raised. I'm reading that as part of her being appalled at how casually Haley was taking this violence thing.

[Forealms]

As far as i recall an outsider slain on the material plane cannot return to it within the next 100 years. So that would make it quite difficult for her to see roy again before he kicks the bucket (for real)

These (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) seemed to die pretty effectively.

[Optimystik]

And how many times do you need the workings of summoning and calling explained, before you finaly get that though it might be called a summoning, then by D&D terms it was actualy a calling.

Also, the part about the cloister effect being open to summoning effects comes from Celia, if she herself dont understand the difference between a summoning and a calling, then we really cant take her words as evidence of anything.

Actualy, i think the most likely explanation is that in the OOTS world the difference between calling and summoning is very tecnical, so only wizards bother with it, everyone else just call both types of magic summoning.

THANK YOU. Someone got it.

Occam's Razor: the people calling it "summoning" either don't know or don't care about the difference between summoning and calling.

Booty Talisman is clearly a calling effect. Duration instantaneous, outsider can die. End of story.

"The Cloister allows summoning but not calling" is a foolish argument. That's like saying a golem is immune to charms but not compulsions. They are both subsets of the same overarching concept; if one's protection is susceptible to one, the other is assumed. Until we hear Dorukan (or Xykon, or even V) specifically rule out calling, we can't either.

[Red XIV]

And how many times do you need the workings of summoning and calling explained, before you finaly get that though it might be called a summoning, then by D&D terms it was actualy a calling.
Except that it doesn't fit the D&D definition of Calling any better than it does Summoning.


Also, the part about the cloister effect being open to summoning effects comes from Celia, if she herself dont understand the difference between a summoning and a calling, then we really cant take her words as evidence of anything.
You're basing this on nothing but your own unsupported assumption that Celia doesn't know the difference between Summoning and Calling. And there's really only one way for Celia to know the workings of Cloister (which she does, in great detail): Dorukan, the guy who created the spell, had to have told her.


Actualy, i think the most likely explanation is that in the OOTS world the difference between calling and summoning is very tecnical, so only wizards bother with it, everyone else just call both types of magic summoning.
So you think that Wizards make that distinction, but other magic users like Clerics and Sorcerers don't? That's...arbitrary.


THANK YOU. Someone got it.

Occam's Razor: the people calling it "summoning" either don't know or don't care about the difference between summoning and calling.
That's your idea of Occam's razor?

Occam's razor means you make the fewest assumptions possible. Making the massive assumption that an effect that's repeatedly referred to as Summoning and never as Calling is, in fact, Calling rather than Summoning...doesn't qualify.

[Wormwood74]

Surprised only one other person approached this question from a character movitation centric perspective.

Wait. No I'm not.

Seems like most people on the board are more interested in the minutiae of 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 rules than the actual story most of the time. IMHO, the strip is at it's absolute funniest and most entertaining when it is driven by the characters, and not by the rules they operate under.

Back in strip #669 Celia speaks of the afterlife by saying "We don't have one. We just sort of merge back into the plane we're from." I took it to mean that her energy goes back to the plane of air, but that whatever made her Celia, is gone. Almost oblivion, but not quite. Almost like the great circle of life idea. This would give elementals one heck of a reason to avoid death and suffering the way Celia does and abhors.

[Optimystik]

Except that it doesn't fit the D&D definition of Calling any better than it does Summoning.

You missed the part where Called Outsiders can die and summoned ones don't? Or the fact that Callings have no duration, while Summons do?


You're basing this on nothing but your own unsupported assumption that Celia doesn't know the difference between Summoning and Calling. And there's really only one way for Celia to know the workings of Cloister (which she does, in great detail): Dorukan, the guy who created the spell, had to have told her.

But Dorukan doesn't say anything about Calling being barred. And Celia doesn't know everything about Cloister; she doesn't even know why the loophole was left in the spell (though we do.)

And clearly we do have support, because Celia was Called, not Summoned.


Occam's razor means you make the fewest assumptions possible. Making the massive assumption that an effect that's repeatedly referred to as Summoning and never as Calling is, in fact, Calling rather than Summoning...doesn't qualify.

No, I am assuming that the people who call it Summoning are being imprecise rather than inventing some mythical houserule where none is necessary.

Basically, your only support for "it wasn't Calling" is that the characters didn't use that word. Sorry, but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... well, you know.

[hamishspence]

Can Callings be dismissed? If not, it takes more after Summoning in this aspect at least.

[Snake-Aes]

Can Callings be dismissed? If not, it takes more after Summoning in this aspect at least.

Call spells generally allow the trip back, though the mechanics there are unclear. The Called creature is not bound by the spell, so you can't dispel a creature away, and once it is killed, it doesn't "go back to where it was summoned from", it really just dies. Sort of a glorified teleport.

[Optimystik]

Calling spells usually specify "when service is complete" as the condition of release (see Planar Ally and Gate.) Since Haley activated the talisman, it falls to her to say that service has been rendered; at least, that's how I read Celia's request.