sith vs jedi confusion

[reorith]

if the sith only have a master and an apprentice and the jedi have a whole council with more than two members, how come they couldn't use their superior numbers to smack the sith down?

[Dhavaer]

Two reasons. First, generally 1 Sith > 1 Jedi. Two, the Sith are really good at hiding.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Yeah, the Sith honed their hiding over about 1000 years since the Great Sith wars wiped them out.

Also - clones. Remember that most of the Jedi don't get to face the Sith.

[Pagz]

The sith are crazy, tracking the two down would be too hard

swarming a massivly good sith with a whole bunch of jedi probably isnt a good thing, as its been said, a sith is a lot better then a jedi (usually)

One thing that interests me is that the darkside is stronger with fewer members, while the "good" side of the force gets stronger with more members, wonder if thats a reason?

[Xerillum]

meh, the sith can use their powers any way they want. the're more powerful than the jedi, I mean, a Sith Lord can take out at least a whole room of jedis.

[Saithis Bladewing]

meh, the sith can use their powers any way they want. the're more powerful than the jedi, I mean, a Sith Lord can take out at least a whole room of jedis.


Depends on the Jedi.

[Jibar]

Also, a Jedi Master could bring down a whole room of Sith.

But this all depends, is it force powers or lightsaber?
Vader vs Obi Wan (Episode 3) shows they are about equal. Both of them now being the best lightsaber wielders.
But force powers is where it heats up... the Sith go offensive, and the Jedi defensive. Sidious vs Yoda...Sidious won due to a lucky shot really...

[Closet_Skeleton]

They didn't originaly have a rule of two, but they got their asses kicked anway so they thought they might as well stop bothering to train worthless grunt sith and hid in a hut. In the Galactic Empire Era, why didn't the Sith use their massive numbers to smack the Jedi down? They thought they had, it's the same for the massive Jedi order v.s. the Sith.

[DEMONhunter]

Also, a Jedi Master could bring down a whole room of Sith.

But this all depends, is it force powers or lightsaber?
Vader vs Obi Wan (Episode 3) shows they are about equal. Both of them now being the best lightsaber wielders.
Vader was just an apprentice then, and was defeated by his own over-confidence (the somersault over obi-wan's head). Yet still he was a match for his Jedi opponent.

[Jibar]

I agree with Anakin. (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=150)

[Big_Red_Bird]

The sith don't need numbers. One sith lord, with a rotating apprentice, plus a couple of years of politics, equals a hell of a lot of dead jedi.

[Gralamin]

Also, a Jedi Master could bring down a whole room of Sith.

But this all depends, is it force powers or lightsaber?
Vader vs Obi Wan (Episode 3) shows they are about equal. Both of them now being the best lightsaber wielders.
But force powers is where it heats up... the Sith go offensive, and the Jedi defensive. Sidious vs Yoda...Sidious won due to a lucky shot really...
Well before Anakin killed Windu, Windu had his super Vaapad style of lightsabers which would of easily beaten Anakin in a fair fight (read: not a surprise attack)

[Lesol]

Sith Master 1 and apprentice.
Apprentice learns enough to strike down Master 1 and becomes Master 2, taking on a new apprentice.
Sith Master 2 and apprentice.
Apprentice learns enough to strike down Master 2 and becomes Master 3, taking on a new apprentice.
Sith Master 3 and apprentice.
Apprentice learns enough to strike down Master 3 and becomes Master 4, taking on a new apprentice.

Survival of the fitest.

[Spuddly]

Actually, you're all wrong.

It depends on who's writing the story.

[Shadow_of_Light]

I agree with Anakin. (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=150)

*laughs!* Thank you. :D

[Harnryd]

I figured I could be both unoriginal and off-topic at once by posting this link:
http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/darth-tragedy/default.php

[Lord Iames Osari]

Two reasons. First, generally 1 Sith > 1 Jedi. Two, the Sith are really good at hiding.

I don't think it's true that Sith are inherently more powerful than Jedi. It's just that most of the time, the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi they are fighting. Like, most Sith have CRs in the 16-20 range, whereas most Jedi have CRs in the 5-15 range. A Jedi of CR 20 vs. a Sith of CR 20 is going to be a pretty even fight - witness Yoda vs. Palpatine in Episode III.

[Were-Sandwich]

Well before Anakin killed Windu, Windu had his super Vaapad style of lightsabers which would of easily beaten Anakin in a fair fight (read: not a surprise attack

What is Vaapad. I keep hearing about it, what the hell is it?

[Tanking_101]

So yeah I'm kinda thinkin' that Jedi are just as powerful as sith, but sith don't hold anything back. So therefore while not being more powerful they do have more powers.

[Kriel]

What is Vaapad. I keep hearing about it, what the hell is it?

It's a very rare style of lightsaber combat mastered by only a few Jedi throughout history. Basically it revolves around focusing all your negative emotions, i.e. hatred, rage, etc. into your fighting but without giving into them. It also requires mastery of all the other forms of lightsaber combat.

[Vaynor]

if the sith only have a master and an apprentice and the jedi have a whole council with more than two members, how come they couldn't use their superior numbers to smack the sith down?
"You underestimate the powers of the Dark Side."
*choo chh, choo chhh*

[Sophistemon]

I figured I could be both unoriginal and off-topic at once by posting this link:
http://www.i-mockery.com/minimocks/darth-tragedy/default.php

Hey, I can be unoriginal too (http://vadercoaster.ytmnd.com/)!

[bartak_the_healer]

It all depends on the style and experience see Episode I Darth Maul vs. Qui-gan and Obi-Wan. Also see Episode III Count Dooku vs. Obi-Wan and Anakin.
In these cases the more experienced Jedi are taken out of the fight and the less experienced ones take over to kill the sith lord.

[tis_tom]

Ohohoh! Something I actually know something about!

The force is sort of like a weighing scale, in essence the more good you do with the force, the more evil is needed to be created in order to balance out this order. People seem to like the idea that the force is some sort of benign power, but it's pretty much indifferent.

The reason two sith lords are able to defeat many many more jedi in combat is simply because if you have a council of 100+ jedi all doing good with the force at the same time, the two sith lords have equal power to these 100+ jedi, it's the universes way of keeping things 'equal' as it were.

What's more even if you include this heightened amount of power a Sith lord is able to gain through this balance, it is much easier to generate power off of your own hatred and malevolence, because this naturally occurs. People have to actually work hard to combat many of their selfish natural urges, so naturally while indeed there are several jedi masters who're in complete control, many fail (and thus are not able to go beyond the power which a Sith Lord can gain)

And lastly, it's very easy to track down a jedi in a place where there are hundreds, especially as they're pro-active. But it's almost impossible to find two in all the planets, especially if they want to remain hidden.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Ohohoh! Something I actually know something about!

The force is sort of like a weighing scale, in essence the more good you do with the force, the more evil is needed to be created in order to balance out this order. People seem to like the idea that the force is some sort of benign power, but it's pretty much indifferent.

The reason two sith lords are able to defeat many many more jedi in combat is simply because if you have a council of 100+ jedi all doing good with the force at the same time, the two sith lords have equal power to these 100+ jedi, it's the universes way of keeping things 'equal' as it were.

...snip...

That seems like a good explanation... but is it canon? Where is this written / said / explained, and who by?

[tis_tom]

... if you could see the amount of starwars garbage I own or have access to you'd only want to cry. lol I picked that stuff up though mainly from starwars books, I kinda didn't quite explain it right but that's it simply put (just because there are other force users besides jedi and sith which I didn't want to go into)

[noweezernoworld]

I don't think it's true that Sith are inherently more powerful than Jedi. It's just that most of the time, the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi they are fighting. Like, most Sith have CRs in the 16-20 range, whereas most Jedi have CRs in the 5-15 range. A Jedi of CR 20 vs. a Sith of CR 20 is going to be a pretty even fight - witness Yoda vs. Palpatine in Episode III.

Because the Jedi pump out new Jedi apprectices all the time who have to make a huge effort to get anywhere, it's much easier for the Sith to take the easy path and gain immense power. Considering that most Jedi, like you said, are nowhere near as strong as a Sith is how they are able to defeat so many Jedi. It's just not that hard.

[Democratus]

The answer is very simple.

Jedi and sith are exactly as strong or weak as the writer needs them to be for the fulfillment of the plot.

[Saithis Bladewing]

It's a very rare style of lightsaber combat mastered by only a few Jedi throughout history. Basically it revolves around focusing all your negative emotions, i.e. hatred, rage, etc. into your fighting but without giving into them. It also requires mastery of all the other forms of lightsaber combat.

It doesn't REQUIRE mastery of ALL other forms, but you'll never really master it if you haven't mastered at least a few of the other forms. Also, I'd just like to point out that Vaapad is not so much a style of its own, more its a refinement of the original Form VII lightsaber style of Juyo, which was actually in common use during earlier years of the Old Republic.



There's also the fact that the Jedi rarely travel in huge groups. The Sith never directly attack the Jedi Temple unless they have lots of numbers. When they go into battle, they usually pick out the small traveling groups of Jedi.

So, for example, rather than go and attack the Jedi where they are strong and get overwhelmed by sheer numbers (even the mightiest Sith can't face down, say, twenty Jedi at once, even if they were just Padawans), they catch the small groups unawares. See Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Maul was about equal in skill with Qui-Gon Jinn, but his fighting style was much better suited for long-term combat, where as Qui-Gon Jinn's style takes a lot more energy to use. Without Obi-Wan's aid, he grew tired and was unable to keep up with Maul's attacks, thus why he died.

Sidious was about equal in skill with Yoda and Windu. Watching the fight, I've also noticed that Sidious appears to use Vaapad, I'm not sure if he studied Windu's style from a distance, or if he was using the original style of Form VII (Juyo) combined with his prescience to predict and imitate Windu's movements. Though, it's actually been suggested (and sounds more likely to me) that Windu was actually imitating Sidious, using his own powers against him.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the original rant. I think I was just trying to point out that the greatest of Sith and the greatest of Jedi are generally of equal skill and power, but that whoever is the least numerous generally uses stealth and care so that they can engage their enemy on equal terms (thus ensuring they cannot be overwhelmed by superior numbers.)

[Zangor]

Also, remember that the Sith master, having just the one apprentice, seeks out the best guy he can. He doesn't choose somebody if he isn't very skilled with the force. The Jedi, on the other hand, take anybody who can use it, whether or not they possess amazingly high ability with it. It's only sensible, therefore, that the average sith will beat the average Jedi. If the sith went to recruiting mass numbers, the average sith and average jedi would be about equal.

[TheThan]

I look at the light side and the dark side as two sides of a scale. The force is constantly trying to balance itself out. During the old republic the Jedi were in greater numbers, they did a lot of good all across the galaxy. So the scale tipped in their favor. But Anakin and the emperor wiped out the Jedi and did a lot of evil. This tipped the scales back the other direction. So they now had the scales in their favor. But when Luke turned Vader back to the good side, and the emperor was killed, they began to tip the balance again. but it would take a lot of work to bring the force back into balance.

[Dudukain]

Think about it. One-on-one teaching = Better. Jedi are, for lack of a better term, mass-produced, whereas Sith are hand-made. A jedi is a toyota, which takes 11 hours to assemble. A Sith is a rolls-royce, which takes 6 months to assemble. A sith can easily slaughter many, many Jedi before he is taken down. Look at Dooku or Maul, both of whom took two Jedi to take down, and in both instances one was injured or killed.


Why am I comparing Lightsaber-wielding, Force-slinging, zen-spewing, combat and philosphical machines to cars?

[Saithis Bladewing]

I don't know, but I'd like to point out that such was only true during the time of Darth Bane's rule of two. During times such as, say, Knights of the Old Republic, Sith were being mass-produced too. And, as I always quote, it depends on the Jedi who's fighting. ;)

[Caillach]

I don't know, but I'd like to point out that such was only true during the time of Darth Bane's rule of two. During times such as, say, Knights of the Old Republic, Sith were being mass-produced too. And, as I always quote, it depends on the Jedi who's fighting. ;)

Yurp. It depends on you timeline and story.

If talking about just the movies, Jedi are limited by politics, the Sith control politics. With the Sith in control of "the people" the Jedi are pretty well screwed, untill too late.

The Jedi master emotions, the Sith manipulate them. An unexperienced Jedi can easily be taken down by a sith, because the Sith can manipulate the emotions not yet mastered. However if faceing a experienced Jedi the Sith will have no advantage in that sense.

The Sith's morals are far different from the Jedi. They allow the Sith to cross the borders that a Jedi wouldn't even consider to get the job done. This does not make the Sith more powerfull than the Jedi. It only makes them apear so. Because they don't follow the "rules of the game" (no slaughtering of innocents etc.) the Sith can achieve their goals much faster useing bloodshed and manipulation as an exsample, instead of apealing to the good old Jedi code.

Also, keep in mind that the Jedi rarely plan things. They tipically do not wish to control things, so they just take things as they come, and do the best with what they have. The Sith on the other hand are always plotting and schemeing. You could think of it like an experienced Soldier and an opposeing General. A General plans and controls things (like the Sith), and the Soldier is forced to have his moves determind by what the General chooses to throw at him. However one on one, the general and soldier are pretty equal in killing skill. It is just the way they work that allows one to apear greater than the other.

All and all I would say that The greatest of the Jedi Masters and The Greatest of the Sith are equal in power, and it is just the fact that the Sith "fight Dirty" to achieve power, that makes the Sith seem the masters of events to the common people of a galaxy far far away.

[Old_el_Paso]

There's just two sith, but there are still dark jedi and darkside cult members and sith witches and stuff.

[Saithis Bladewing]

There's just two sith, but there are still dark jedi and darkside cult members and sith witches and stuff.


There are only two Sith who take on the title of DARTH, throughout history there have been hundreds of true dark jedi who take on the name Sith at once.

[Tarnag40k]

well I can end this right now...

Jedi are only as strong as Geogre Lucas allows them to be, the same with the Sith

[Dhavaer]

well I can end this right now...

Jedi are only as strong as Geogre Lucas allows them to be, the same with the Sith


As if that tactic has ever worked in ending a geek argument. We live to argue! No mere reason or logic can stop us!

[Democratus]

well I can end this right now...

Jedi are only as strong as Geogre Lucas allows them to be, the same with the Sith

Yeah. Especially since I made that point a page ago.

I'm reminded of sometihng JMS once said about his series, "Babylon 5". When asked how fast the White Star could fly he answered, "at the speed of Plot".

[Logic]

ok, im going to compare the Jedi and the Sith to the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance (respectively)

Where the Jedi are very numerous (circa Episode 1-3) the Galactic Empire is numerous. (Circa Episode 4-6)

("The sith have not been seen for over a millenia")
Where the Sith are few, the hide. They had time to study their opponents and catch them flat-footed. (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were not prepared for the fighting style of Darth Maul, as his lightsaber had not been seen in quite some time.) and if someone says that a single sith can just walk into a room and slaughter a handful of jedi, why was Obi-Wan able to kill maul, a vastly superior opponet? once again, the victor had surprise on his side.
the Rebellion hides and studies its opponets before striking, hence why it was never really a standing army, but a hit and run terrorist organisation (on a side note, no RTS will ever be accurate when it comes to the Rebelion vs the Empire)

I hope this makes sense to people. if you need clarifications, i think i am smart enough to respond.

[Athanatos]

There are only two Sith who take on the title of DARTH, throughout history there have been hundreds of true dark jedi who take on the name Sith at once.

Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya.

That's three at the same time.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, but that was before the Rule of Two, and only shortly after the creation of the Darth title.

Those three were the fourth, fifth, and six everto take the title of Darth (maybe 5, 6, and 7...did Bastila ever formally add a Darth?) Revan and Malak basically just pulled it out of thin air to say "hey, we're bad guys now." Later Sith Lords just took the title and expanded upon it, Traya being the first to use a pseudonym. It was a new thing, and formal rules weren't estalished as such.

This has been a narrow response from someone just joining the conversation.

[Logic]

Actually, the KOTOR games take place before anyone ever called themselves a Darth, and before the "rule of 2"

Darth Bane was the first (Darth was his first name) and he deemed it appropriate to make it a title along with an ominous name to follow (Sidiuos-Insidious, Tyranous-Tyranny, Maul-Maul, Plageus-Plague)
And the Battle of Ruson was where all But Darth Bane of the Sith were wiped out, and shortly thereafter he created the rules of the Sith that we recognize.