Firearms and D&D 4th Edition

[Kaiser Omnik]

Are there stats for the arquebus or the musket in any of the 4th edition books?

[Tengu_temp]

Nope. You can use the stats of Superior Crossbow, if you ask me.

[Mando Knight]

I'd use Heavy Crossbow for an Arquebus, actually. Early firearms aren't as accurate as the Superior Crossbow would be, which seems to be a sniper crossbow.

One idea for modification: bump it to Superior, give it d12 damage, either High Crit or Brutal 2, and give it a rather short range.

[DragonBaneDM]

OO!!! Oo! I have stuff!!!! I was just so excited I posted this before I got said stuff!

HOLD ON I'LL BE RIGHT BACK!!!!

[DragonBaneDM]

Here you go I hope you can use this homebrew stuff my DM came up with!!!

Pertinent information:

Clip: After making an attack with a weapon with the clip property, roll the indicated die; if you roll a 1, the weapon is out of ammo and must be reloaded. Weapons with the clip property will always also have the load property, but you do not need to reload them until you roll a 1 on your clip die after an attack. You only roll the die once per attack power, after the power is completely done.

Spread: Whenever you make a ranged attack with a spread weapon and the attack has only a single target, if the attack hits then every creature adjacent to the target takes 1[W] damage.

Unreliable: When making an attack roll with an unreliable weapon, if your natural d20 roll (before applying modifiers) is equal to or lower than the unreliable value given for the weapon, the weapon jams. You may not make any more attacks with the weapon again until you’ve spent a standard action clearing it. A weapon jamming does not prevent any portion of a given power from working, so for example if a power has a secondary attack and you jam while rolling for the primary attack you still get to make the secondary attack. In essence, the jamming doesn’t happen until after the attack is completely done. If you roll a jam but the attack would otherwise hit, it still hits as normal.

Revolver
Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d8
Range - 15/30
Price - 35 gp
Weight - 2 lbs
Properties -
Clip d6
Unreliable 2
Load Minor

Shotgun
Type - Military Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +2
Damage - 2d4
Range - 5/10
Price - 45 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d8
Unreliable 3
Load Move
Spread

Rifle
Type - Military Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d10
Range - 20/40
Price - 50 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d10
Unreliable 3
Load Move

Magnum
Type - Superior Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d10
Range - 15/30
Price - 75 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d8
Unreliable 3
Load Move
High Crit
Brutal 1

Assault Rifle
Type - Superior Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +2
Damage - 1d10
Range - 10/20
Price - 125 gp
Weight - 12 lbs
Properties -
Clip d12
Unreliable 3
Load Move
Spread
Brutal 1

Sniper Rifle
Type - Superior Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d12
Range - 25/50
Price - 150 gp
Weight - 10 lbs
Properties -
Clip d10
Unreliable 3
Load Standard
Brutal 1

New Items:

Ammunition: Self-explanatory

Speed Loader: Can be loaded ahead of time, in order to load a Revolver as a free action, or a Magnum as a minor action once per encounter. This increases the unreliable value by 2 for the remainder of the encounter.

New Feats:

Heroic:

Conservative Shot -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Once per encounter, when you roll a 1 on a clip die, you can reroll that die. You can also spend an action point to reroll a clip die.

Paragon:

Deadeye -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Ignore the range penalty for using a sniper rifle at long range. The sniper rifle gains the high crit property. The magnum gains the property brutal 2.

Rapid Reload-
Requirements: Weapon Procifiency (Ironbows), Dex 15
Effects: For the purpose of reloading ironbows, you can spend a minor action as though it were a move action and you can spend a move action as though it were a standard action.

Epic:

Gunsmith -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Decrease all ironbow unreliable values by 1.

Ironbow Mastery -
Requirements: Str 17, Dex 21
Effects: When you make a ranged weapon attack with an ironbow, you can score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.

Now, the thing is that he doesn't know I'm giving this to you...

Luckily he's playing in one of my campaigns, eh?

[Ninetail]

I've got some homebrew stats (http://abutterflydreaming.com/2008/12/04/white-knights-and-black-powder/) I use for my campaign.

[Blackfang108]

Here you go I hope you can use this homebrew stuff my DM came up with!!!

Pertinent information:

Clip: After making an attack with a weapon with the clip property, roll the indicated die; if you roll a 1, the weapon is out of ammo and must be reloaded. Weapons with the clip property will always also have the load property, but you do not need to reload them until you roll a 1 on your clip die after an attack. You only roll the die once per attack power, after the power is completely done.

Spread: Whenever you make a ranged attack with a spread weapon and the attack has only a single target, if the attack hits then every creature adjacent to the target takes 1[W] damage.

Unreliable: When making an attack roll with an unreliable weapon, if your natural d20 roll (before applying modifiers) is equal to or lower than the unreliable value given for the weapon, the weapon jams. You may not make any more attacks with the weapon again until you’ve spent a standard action clearing it. A weapon jamming does not prevent any portion of a given power from working, so for example if a power has a secondary attack and you jam while rolling for the primary attack you still get to make the secondary attack. In essence, the jamming doesn’t happen until after the attack is completely done. If you roll a jam but the attack would otherwise hit, it still hits as normal.

Revolver
Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d8
Range - 15/30
Price - 35 gp
Weight - 2 lbs
Properties -
Clip d6
Unreliable 2
Load Minor

Shotgun
Type - Military Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +2
Damage - 2d4
Range - 5/10
Price - 45 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d8
Unreliable 3
Load Move
Spread

Rifle
Type - Military Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d10
Range - 20/40
Price - 50 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d10
Unreliable 3
Load Move

Magnum
Type - Superior Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d10
Range - 15/30
Price - 75 gp
Weight - 7 lbs
Properties -
Clip d8
Unreliable 3
Load Move
High Crit
Brutal 1

Assault Rifle
Type - Superior Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +2
Damage - 1d10
Range - 10/20
Price - 125 gp
Weight - 12 lbs
Properties -
Clip d12
Unreliable 3
Load Move
Spread
Brutal 1

Sniper Rifle
Type - Superior Ranged, Two-Handed
Group - Ironbow
Proficiency - +3
Damage - 1d12
Range - 25/50
Price - 150 gp
Weight - 10 lbs
Properties -
Clip d10
Unreliable 3
Load Standard
Brutal 1

New Items:

Ammunition: Self-explanatory

Speed Loader: Can be loaded ahead of time, in order to load a Revolver as a free action, or a Magnum as a minor action once per encounter. This increases the unreliable value by 2 for the remainder of the encounter.

New Feats:

Heroic:

Conservative Shot -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Once per encounter, when you roll a 1 on a clip die, you can reroll that die. You can also spend an action point to reroll a clip die.

Paragon:

Deadeye -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Ignore the range penalty for using a sniper rifle at long range. The sniper rifle gains the high crit property. The magnum gains the property brutal 2.

Rapid Reload-
Requirements: Weapon Procifiency (Ironbows), Dex 15
Effects: For the purpose of reloading ironbows, you can spend a minor action as though it were a move action and you can spend a move action as though it were a standard action.

Epic:

Gunsmith -
Requirements: Weapon Proficiency (Ironbows)
Effects: Decrease all ironbow unreliable values by 1.

Ironbow Mastery -
Requirements: Str 17, Dex 21
Effects: When you make a ranged weapon attack with an ironbow, you can score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.

Now, the thing is that he doesn't know I'm giving this to you...

Luckily he's playing in one of my campaigns, eh?

Awesomesauce.

[Tengu_temp]

In my steampunkish game, I went with a lazy solution and simply replaced different types of crossbows with guns. Hand crossbow is a pistol, crossbow is a rifle, repeating crossbow is a semiautomatic rifle and superior crossbow is a superior rifle. Like a custom elephant gun in case of one of my players.

[Burley]

Awesomesauce.

I don't agree with your statement, Blackfang.
The point of 4e is to not penalize players for silly reasons. Using a gun for flavor should not impose 3 different types of penalties, some of which make no sense. (Why would a clip be expended after firing once and rolling bad, or be infinite if you don't?)

Really, just use bows and crossbows, and reflavor them. Mechanically, the above mentions "ironbows" are crippling. A player would be fed up with his character after the first jam. (Loss of a standard action is infuriating in play.)

[Blacky the Blackball]

Using bows and crossbows reflavoured works for me.

Plus it turns archer-rangers into awesome gunslingers...

[hamishspence]

Rogues with Two Fisted Shooter feat from Martial power- hand crossbow becomes off-hand weapon that can be reloaded as a free action.

Refluff the handcrossbow as the pistol and we have another gunslinger.

[Hal]

As an addendum to the OP's question, would you homebrew separate enchantments for firearms or simply use the ranged weapon enchantments? If the former, what kind of ideas would you use?

[Artanis]

And if you want a firearm with a clip, there's always the Repeating Crossbow from AV to base stuff on.

[Swordguy]

I don't agree with your statement, Blackfang.
The point of 4e is to not penalize players for silly reasons. Using a gun for flavor should not impose 3 different types of penalties, some of which make no sense. (Why would a clip be expended after firing once and rolling bad, or be infinite if you don't?)

Really, just use bows and crossbows, and reflavor them. Mechanically, the above mentions "ironbows" are crippling. A player would be fed up with his character after the first jam. (Loss of a standard action is infuriating in play.)


I disagree that they're "crippling". Certainly, the clip mechanic is awkward (why you wouldn't just track the number of rounds the weapon holds is beyond me), but firearms in D&D should be unreliable. That's always been the paradigm of firearms within a fantasy setting, they hit really hard, but they have slow loading times and jam a lot. It's a tradeoff.

I'd base period firearms off of bows as well - the idea of the gunslinger-Ranger is pretty damn cool. Each gun subtracts one from the listed bow accuracy bonus, adds two dice steps to damage (d6 becomes d10), takes a standard action to reload (with a feat or class ability that reduces it to a move action somewhere in there) the magazine or single-shot, and gains Brutal 1, and gains the Unreliable quality as described above (generally, all single-shot guns would have Unreliable 1, while multishot weapons have Unreliable 2, and any automatic weapons have Unreliable 3). Last, and most importantly, they target Reflex Defense, not Armor Class.

So a Period muzzle-loading pistol, based off the hand crossbow, would look like this:

Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Firearm (Bow)
Proficiency - +1
Damage - 1d8
Range - 10/20
Price - ??? gp (appropriate to your campaign setting)
Weight - 3 lbs
Properties - Brutal 1, targets REF
Shots - 1
Unreliable 1
Load - Standard action

While a primitive revolver might look like this (based off a repeating crossbow):
Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Firearm (bow)
Proficiency - +1
Damage - 1d10
Range - 10/20
Price - ??? gp (appropriate to your campaign setting)
Weight - 2 lbs
Properties - Brutal 1, targets REF
Shots - 6
Unreliable - 2
Load Standard (speedloader reduces to move)




Modern firearms work the same way, except have no penalty to accuracy, their Unreliable quality is dropped to 1 in all cases and they gain Brutal 2 (if described as a "Magnum" round they also gain a further -1 to Accuracy, but gain High Crit). Of course, this isn't balanced at all, but modern firearms are objectively better than period ranged weaponry. There is no tradeoff here.

[Gralamin]

I disagree that they're "crippling". Certainly, the clip mechanic is awkward (why you wouldn't just track the number of rounds the weapon holds is beyond me), but firearms in D&D should be unreliable. That's always been the paradigm of firearms within a fantasy setting, they hit really hard, but they have slow loading times and jam a lot. It's a tradeoff.

I'd base period firearms off of bows as well - the idea of the gunslinger-Ranger is pretty damn cool. Each gun subtracts one from the listed bow accuracy bonus, adds two dice steps to damage (d6 becomes d10), takes a standard action to reload (with a feat or class ability that reduces it to a move action somewhere in there) the magazine or single-shot, and gains Brutal 1, and gains the Unreliable quality as described above (generally, all single-shot guns would have Unreliable 1, while multishot weapons have Unreliable 2, and any automatic weapons have Unreliable 3). Last, and most importantly, they target Reflex Defense, not Armor Class.

So a Period muzzle-loading pistol, based off the hand crossbow, would look like this:

Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Firearm (Bow)
Proficiency - +1
Damage - 1d8
Range - 10/20
Price - ??? gp (appropriate to your campaign setting)
Weight - 3 lbs
Properties - Brutal 1, targets REF
Shots - 1
Unreliable 1
Load - Standard action

While a primitive revolver might look like this (based off a repeating crossbow):
Type - Military Ranged, One-Handed
Group - Firearm (bow)
Proficiency - +1
Damage - 1d10
Range - 10/20
Price - ??? gp (appropriate to your campaign setting)
Weight - 2 lbs
Properties - Brutal 1, targets REF
Shots - 6
Unreliable - 2
Load Standard (speedloader reduces to move)




Modern firearms work the same way, except have no penalty to accuracy, their Unreliable quality is dropped to 1 in all cases and they gain Brutal 2 (if described as a "Magnum" round they also gain a further -1 to Accuracy, but gain High Crit). Of course, this isn't balanced at all, but modern firearms are objectively better than period ranged weaponry. There is no tradeoff here.

I'd agree with most of this, but making it attack reflex instead actually makes the gun slightly more accurate then a normal bow. I'd instead go with a full writeup that looks like:


In some settings, characters may use the following Firearm weapons. A class normally proficient with bows may substitute their bow proficiency for Firearm Proficiency. In addition, a few classes, particularly the Artificer and Rogue, may trade Crossbow proficiency for Firearm proficiency. For the purposes of all feats, powers, and effects, a Firearm counts as a bow or a crossbow, depending on which proficiencies you gave up to gain Firearm Proficiency.
((Note: This is basically the way I'd handle allowing classes to use Firearm's in a really lazy quick way))

Firearms: Weapons and Properties
Firearms are best stated out as weapons, and have some unique properties.
((Autofire weapons I'm not sure how to do, but I'm thinking of either stealing the mechanics from Saga, or basically saying that autofire weapons are minor magic items with an at-will power))

Clip Size: A weapon with this keyword has more then one shot before needing to be reloaded. As long as the weapon has ammunition in its clip, the weapon is treated as load free. The number of shots in the clip is noted after the keyword by a number.

Penetrating: A weapon with this keyword ignores any damage resistance that applies to the attack if its less then the number indicated. For example, a Penetrating 5 weapon would ignore any resistance of 5 or less that apply to the weapon.

Unreliable: When making an attack roll with an unreliable weapon, if your natural d20 roll (before applying modifiers) is equal to or lower than the unreliable value given for the weapon, the weapon jams after the power is resolved. You may not make any more attacks with the weapon again until you've spent a standard action clearing it. A reroll effect will not cause the weapon not to jam, but a reroll will never cause a jam.

Military Ranged One-Handed Weapons
{table="head"]Weapon|Prof.|Damage|Range|Price|Weight|Group|Prope rties
Muzzle-Loading Pistol|+1|1d8|10/20|By Campaign Setting|3 lbs|Firearm|Brutal 1, Load standard, Penetrating 2, Unreliable 1
Revolver|+1|1d10|10/20|By Campaign Setting|2 lbs|Firearm|Brutal 1, Clip Size 6, Load standard, Penetrating 2, Unreliable 2[/table]

[mikeejimbo]

There's a gunslinger in one of the campaigns I'm in. He just uses re-flavored crossbows, as well.

[Swordguy]

I'd agree with most of this, but making it attack reflex instead actually makes the gun slightly more accurate then a normal bow.

Nice writeup. My question would be is attacking Reflex more accurate than attacking the target without the target getting the AC bonus for his worn armor? Firearms are most like ranged touch attacks; armor doesn't help, thus I figured that targeting Reflex would be the correct response.

Have a better idea to produce a similar effect?

[Gralamin]

Nice writeup. My question would be is attacking Reflex more accurate than attacking the target without the target getting the AC bonus for his worn armor? Firearms are most like ranged touch attacks; armor doesn't help, thus I figured that targeting Reflex would be the correct response.

Have a better idea to produce a similar effect?

Giving all guns a proficiency bonus of +0 and attacking Reflex would work for approximentaly the same accuracy, and having a proficiency penalty would make them less accurate. The basic point is that Reflex is usually 2 to 3 below AC (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html) and so having any sort of proficiency bonus against it actually makes you more accurate, which I assume is not your goal.

[holywhippet]

Nice writeup. My question would be is attacking Reflex more accurate than attacking the target without the target getting the AC bonus for his worn armor? Firearms are most like ranged touch attacks; armor doesn't help, thus I figured that targeting Reflex would be the correct response.

Have a better idea to produce a similar effect?

I don't entirely agree. When firearms were introduced to European warfare there was, for a while, an arms race with gun makers trying to make weapons with better penetration and armor makers trying to make armor able to block bullets. The term bulletproof was actually coined at that time.

Reflex saves against bullets would be really tricky - projectile weapons in general are moving too fast for a normal person to evade. At best you can keep moving around and hope the person aiming can't draw a bead on you.

[Tiki Snakes]

Plus if you're talking muskets and so on of that kind of technological level, it's quite possible for the armour to be no worse against the bullet than an arrow. Not to mention that'd probably interact weirdly with the way attacks and powers work.

I like the idea of unreliable, and clips and so on, however. After all, I always heard that it was the simplicity of guns that let them win out over bows, rather than any immediate damage advantage. It was just easier to train up normal people to be semi decent with a rifle than with a bow. Everything else came later, really.

[Don the Bastard]

The third party sourcebook, Quintessential Fighter, has rules for firearms in 4th edition.

[VirOath]

Plus if you're talking muskets and so on of that kind of technological level, it's quite possible for the armour to be no worse against the bullet than an arrow. Not to mention that'd probably interact weirdly with the way attacks and powers work.

I like the idea of unreliable, and clips and so on, however. After all, I always heard that it was the simplicity of guns that let them win out over bows, rather than any immediate damage advantage. It was just easier to train up normal people to be semi decent with a rifle than with a bow. Everything else came later, really.

This.

Bowmen were originally hunters, they weren't used or planned as part of a normal defense. Then someone found out how good a longbow is against armor, and how accurate it can be.

Problem, it was a weapon of peasants. They would teach their children it's use, often holding festivals and contests with them. After about being 15 or so, they would be good enough to reliably hit in basic hunting situations. They would continue to train with them, unless they had started in another profession.

It took a lifetime to train.

Then comes in the Crossbow. Basically a bow on a stock with a strong pull. Though far less accurate, and with a shorter range, you could give one to an untrained peasant and tell them to point and shoot with somewhat effective results. One on One with a Bowman, it would lose, but Crossbows were limited only by the people strong enough to draw the string (Which was easier than a bow, since it was designed to allow the strength in the body to be used, not just the arms) instead of training.

So the Crossbow ended up effectively replacing the bowman. Though it was longer to fire, less accurate with a shorter range, and often trying to hit a moving target, you could field them in mass to create walls of bolts, to the point that accuracy meant nothing.

Other variations cropped up, like the Belly-Bow, but it was the advent of gunpowder that brought the biggest change. Guns took the concept to the next stage.

Even to this day, gun training is little more than point and shoot. Bows have even advanced alongside guns, but still aren't considered a viable military option due to the time it takes to properly train someone in it.

[Aron Times]

I agree that refluffing bows and crossbows into guns is the simplest way to add guns to 4E.

But why stop there? You can go all the way and refluff implements into specialized guns, with the wielder's powers as special ammunition and basic attacks as normal ammunition.

In fact, we're already halfway there. Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast, being basic attacks, have taken the place of the crossbow from 3.5. A 4E wand, for example, has more in common with a modern firearm (bullets = Magic Missile) than its 3.5 counterpart.

You can also go the technomagical route by requiring implement/guns to drain magical power from their wielders. This keeps just anyone from using any implement without training.

[Tiki Snakes]

I agree that refluffing bows and crossbows into guns is the simplest way to add guns to 4E.

But why stop there? You can go all the way and refluff implements into specialized guns, with the wielder's powers as special ammunition and basic attacks as normal ammunition.

In fact, we're already halfway there. Magic Missile and Eldritch Blast, being basic attacks, have taken the place of the crossbow from 3.5. A 4E wand, for example, has more in common with a modern firearm (bullets = Magic Missile) than its 3.5 counterpart.

You can also go the technomagical route by requiring implement/guns to drain magical power from their wielders. This keeps just anyone from using any implement without training.

This post, and it's ideas, are thoroughly deranged and kind of wrong.
I like them though. Could tack on quite nicely to a 4th ed planetscape thing. heh. :)

After all, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[edit] Aaaaw. d'aaaaaaaw. My little adoptable thingy that I've been idly poking for a month or two just hatched. So cute. >_> Don't mind me. Carry on.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Our DM was planning on creating some flintlock firearms that were more like wondrous items than weapons. They had an encounter power "shoot" ability, which represents the whole "pirates carrying lots of pistols" thing, and the long reload time. I believe the attack roll was something like 1/2 lvl + dex + 2 (ups to 4 at paragon, 6 at epic) vs reflex, and the damage was quite nasty.

One problem I find with firearms in pencil and paper RPGs is that the damage they do is seldom enough to justify the risks involved, like misfires, having to carry ammo, powder being spoiled by poor weather or water, etc. It seems to me that PCs in D&D would be exactly the kind of people who could afford to devote their lives to bow training, getting really good with that weapon.

[Yahzi]

Bows have even advanced alongside guns, but still aren't considered a viable military option due to the time it takes to properly train someone in it.
One thing people always forget about guns is that, unlike bows or crossbows, they scale easily.

In real life, this doesn't matter that much. A .50 cal musket ball is big enough to kill pretty much anything you need to kill around here.

But in D&D, where armored monsters the size of houses are common, with enough HPs to take a lickin' and keep on tickin', guns would be even more useful than they were here. Heroes would carry around small cannons, with 1 or 2 inch bores, that did 10d6 damage. Basically, a gun does as much damage as you want it to do, providing you're willing to pay for the powder and carry the weight.

Even in the middle ages, they managed to make a cannon that could fire a 1-ton ball a mile or two. Nothing made of flesh and blood could survive a hit from that.

[Mando Knight]

But in D&D, where armored monsters the size of houses are common, with enough HPs to take a lickin' and keep on tickin', guns would be even more useful than they were here. Heroes would carry around small cannons, with 1 or 2 inch bores, that did 10d6 damage. Basically, a gun does as much damage as you want it to do, providing you're willing to pay for the powder and carry the weight.

Actually, they probably wouldn't, knowing what the most used oversized armored monsters are. A cannon can break through a castle easily, yes, but it's stuck where it is. A dragon is not. You can't use a team of ballistics experts to take aim at the dragon and fire off a shot every few minutes, because the dragon moves fast enough that you might miss with the first shot assuming you get the cannon set up, and has sufficient means to destroy or disrupt the cannon before you can fire it again.

[Blacky the Blackball]

When fighting a dragon, the last thing I'd want to be doing is carrying lots of highly explosive gunpowder about my person...

[Beleriphon]

http://polyhedral.wordpress.com/black-powder-weapons/

Give that a whirl. I like it a great deal.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, they probably wouldn't, knowing what the most used oversized armored monsters are. A cannon can break through a castle easily, yes, but it's stuck where it is. A dragon is not. You can't use a team of ballistics experts to take aim at the dragon and fire off a shot every few minutes, because the dragon moves fast enough that you might miss with the first shot assuming you get the cannon set up, and has sufficient means to destroy or disrupt the cannon before you can fire it again.

I agree entirely.

HOWEVER, i do thoroughly enjoy the idea of a (probably very martial) character whose main schtick is that they use guns, but specifically, mainly, a really, really big masterwork dwarven-crafted uber-musket. A BFM. It's such a rock and roll concept, it's great. A gun-totting version of the whole Black Swordsman thing Guts from Berserk has going on.

"Ha ha, look at the size of that thing! You stupid human, how could you possibly hope to aim that collosal gun of yours, let alone hope to hit anything with it?! Hahaha!"
*quickdraws the sawn-off man-portable cannon*
"My gun is not accurate, it doesn't even have great range. The secret is, it doesn't need it. It's barely directed destructive power simply smashes anything that gets in the way to splinters, as you're about to find out!"

Amusingly enough, Guts does end up with a cannon in the place of one of his hands, so it's really not a huge leap...

[Blackfang108]

I don't agree with your statement, Blackfang.

Ouch. I'm hurt. Someone disagrees with me. That's never happened to me before. Alas, farewell cruel world.
/Deadpan.

OK. no problem here. I think it's nifty you don't. Moving along.:smallbiggrin:

[BillyJimBoBob]

I don't agree with your statement, Blackfang.
The point of 4e is to not penalize players for silly reasons. Using a gun for flavor should not impose 3 different types of penalties, some of which make no sense. (Why would a clip be expended after firing once and rolling bad, or be infinite if you don't?)

Really, just use bows and crossbows, and reflavor them. Mechanically, the above mentions "ironbows" are crippling. A player would be fed up with his character after the first jam. (Loss of a standard action is infuriating in play.)I would prefer to treat guns in a different manner, making them more quirky and special or perhaps even 'steampunkish' than as mainstream as a simple bow/crossbow reflavoring would model.

Consider charging a Feat or something (Engineering, or Tinker, or Mad Scientist, or whatever), and making up an Encounter Power to represent guns. Something like (I'm AFB, so please forgive any incorrect or excluded keywords):

Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity Vs. Reflex
Hit: 2D6
Effect: All creatures within Close Blast 1 of you save or are Dazed until the end of your next turn. Save ends.
Miss: Effect still takes place.


Ok, not perfect but I knocked it together fast. This represents a dragoon type (early pistol) weapon reasonably well. It has a decent amount of damage and a decent effective range, and the shock and awe of the report and smoke upon firing it may briefly stun nearby creatures. The owner is expecting the report and smoke and so is prepared and can not be stunned by it. By limiting it to an Encounter use it also models the quirky nature of unreliable, easily jammed, and long reloading time early firearms.

It would be easy enough to create separate Powers to represent a blunderbuss (Burst 1 to represent shot) or a musket (longer range).