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Xefas
2009-08-03, 12:40 AM
Recently, I got to play in a game (finally! a break from DMing) which will continue on a random and possibly infrequent schedule henceforth. The PCs are level 6 at the moment. All books are allowed.

My character is a Human Vow of Poverty Druid with a Leopard companion, who wildshapes into a Lion and uses Natural Spell to heal and buff the party (all my 1st and 3rd level slots are healing, and my 2nd level ones are spent on buff spells I give the other players).

The other PC that is important in this situation is a Human Dual-Wielding Warblade who specializes in Tiger Claw and White Raven maneuvers, and is planning on going into Bloodclaw Master at least up to level 2 to get Superior Two-Weapon Fighting. Her favorite tactics are using Leading the Charge and Battle Leader's Charge to open the battle with +16 damage on her first attack, and then on the next round go into Punishing Stance to either Full Attack or Sudden Leap Full Attack.

She uses Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to dual-wield two Large Longswords (basically Greatswords).

The other players that my questions do not concern are a Warlock, Sorcerer, and Rogue.

With that information out of the way, my question involves a realization I and the Warblade player had after our last session. I stay in Lion Form for the majority of the day, which is Large sized. Both of us like to charge (her for her maneuvers and me for pouncing). I'm Neutral Good and she's Chaotic Neutral, though she seems receptive to my characters attempts to bring her to the Chaotic Good side.

She could use me like a mount, right? Sexual innuendo aside, that sounds kind of badass. Well-meaning savage barbarian with enormous swords riding into battle on the back of Lion Jesus (Aslan? We made that realization too. I spent the majority of the non-combat portion of the session healing the sick, making crops grow, reforming the corrupt, handing out magically created food and water, and generally being a selfless dude, all without monetary or mechanical gain much to the chagrin of our Warlock and Rogue).

My first question is, what are some weird rule areas I need to be aware of? For instance, if I spend my turn charging, does she count as having charged (to get the bonus damage for Leading the Charge, for instance)? After all, if you're riding a horse, and want to charge with your lance, the horse is the one charging in the first place, right?

Does that mean that if I charge, and she counts as having charged, that she is now adjacent to the enemy, but has taken no actions, so she can full attack with the charge bonus?

How does stuff like the Mounted Combat feat work on me?

And my second question is, what are some good feats, prestige classes, spells, maneuvers, and magic (or mundane) items (and/or other stuff) for either of us to pick up to make this combo better?

Coidzor
2009-08-03, 12:55 AM
I believe it pretty much requires an exotic saddle unless you wanna take the penalties of riding bareback, but yeah, as long as you're able to carry him without being encumbered in your wildshaped form.

Hmm, there were some rules I came across from the WOTC site about mounts and riding on an intelligent mount.

Basically either one of you is going to have to delay so that you can share slots for actions or you'll run the risk of acting at opposite ends of the round which can make coordination.... difficult.

1. Yes, mounted combat would allow your warblade to attempt to negate any hits which beat your AC by replacing it with their Ride Check DC. Which means he kinda needs ranks in Ride for that to be worth it other than for other shenanigans it sets up.

You are the mount. So, if you are moving on your own, he does not have to spend an action to control or direct you at all, so he retains his full action if you act before him in the round.

He can ready an action to participate in the charge if you charge at an opponent though, I believe, so that's one thing you can do to coordinate.

2. Those clips which let you continue to gain the benefits of your magic items while wildshaped, wild shaping armor. Barding if you really spend a long time as the single-kind of wild-shaped creature...

An enchanted saddle which either beefs up your attack or whatevskies would also be nice, since he's going to be riding you.

Is Feat Retraining an option?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 12:57 AM
My character is a Human Vow of Poverty Druid

...

She uses Monkey Grip and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting to dual-wield two Large Longswords (basically Greatswords).

Everything about these feat choices is wrong.

ColdSepp
2009-08-03, 12:58 AM
Everything about these feat choices is wrong.

Indeed. But that isn't the point of this thread.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-03, 01:34 AM
Everything about these feat choices is wrong.

To be fair, Druid is the class hurt the least hard by the Vow.

Xefas
2009-08-03, 01:49 AM
Is Feat Retraining an option?

Thank you for the input :smallsmile:

As for this question, yes, I believe so. We were already planning on having the Warblade trade in her Weapon Focus for Mounted Combat or something else.

I'm not really willing to trade in Vow of Poverty or Natural Spell, however. They're what make my character who he is - which is incidentally the character I want to play. Even if there's a more optimal choice out there.

Although, if you think there's a mechanically superior way to represent Lion Jesus, I'd be willing to hear it.

Same goes for the Warblade's Two Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. She didn't do that because she thought it was mechanically good - quite the opposite, she knew it was mechanically inferior. However, that's the character she wants to play, and has fun playing, and that's the most important thing of all.

I do also have the Natural Bond feat, which increases my effective druid level with my Leopard companion by 3 (since it already had a -3 from being an advanced companion, this evens it out to equal to my character level). I'd be willing to trade that out for something.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 01:54 AM
I'm not really willing to trade in Vow of Poverty or Natural Spell, however. They're what make my character who he is - which is incidentally the character I want to play. Even if there's a more optimal choice out there.


Can't wear a saddle if you have VoP.

ColdSepp
2009-08-03, 01:55 AM
But... you can get Strongarm Bracers that are even better then Monkey Grip for 6000 GP....

Xefas
2009-08-03, 02:00 AM
Can't wear a saddle if you have VoP.

That's not really necessary, though, is it? It's only a -5 penalty on ride checks.

I'll talk to my DM and see if he'll let me wear a saddle that's bought and owned by the warblade, as it gives me no actual bonus or benefit (only the Warblade has to make ride checks, afterall).

Dunno if he'll say yes or no. Probably a 50/50 chance. I can use the fact that I'm allowed to wear clothes in human form, which give me no bonus or benefit, as some justification.


But... you can get Strongarm Bracers that are even better then Monkey Grip for 6000 GP....

Mmmm...I'd actually forgotten about that item. Next time the Warblade has 6,000gp, I'll tell her about it. If we can find one in the world to buy, I suppose Monkey Grip is free to be retrained.

Skorj
2009-08-03, 02:26 AM
Everything about these feat choices is wrong.

Only from a CharOp point of view. The character(s) concept rocks so hard it should get Earthquake as a free SLA. :smallbiggrin: Riding a druid: I love it.

mistformsquirrl
2009-08-03, 07:37 AM
... this is a fantastic (and crazy) idea. <^_^> I like!

I'd assume if the saddle were owned by the Warblade it'd be fine. It's not like someone temporarily letting you borrow something causes you to lose your VoP after all right?

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 08:22 AM
Can't wear a saddle if you have VoP.

If the warblade owns the saddle, its ok to use.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-03, 08:29 AM
If the warblade owns the saddle, its ok to use.

I second this.

OOT:

Do the bracers and monkey grip stack?

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-03, 08:29 AM
Monkey Grip doesn't work for weapons held in your off-hand.

Eldariel
2009-08-03, 08:32 AM
Only from a CharOp point of view. The character(s) concept rocks so hard it should get Earthquake as a free SLA. :smallbiggrin: Riding a druid: I love it.

Yeah, but those feats have nothing to do with it :smalltongue: In fact, she'd REALLY want Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge if going this road. But yah, Druids are awesome mounts (well, they're awesome anything but yeah) - one of my favourite options to get with Leadership if going for a Mount (Mount that heals and buffs itself and you and gains progressively more awesome forms? Oh, and another "Cohort" in AC? Noice.).

JeenLeen
2009-08-03, 12:43 PM
I'd assume if the saddle were owned by the Warblade it'd be fine. It's not like someone temporarily letting you borrow something causes you to lose your VoP after all right?

I think it does. A VoP can be feed a potion or have a wand used on them, but they can't borrow and wear a Cloak of Charisma. I think that example is from BoED.
I know there's Battle Briddle from Magic Item Compendium, which goes on a mount's face slot. It gives the rider +5 Ride and Mounted Combat, but it is a magic item on the mount. You might be able to wear a mundane non-magical it's iffy grounds, I would think.

Can VoP own weapons that cost gp but are non-masterwork? If so, that gives a good argument for an exotic saddle.

Amiria
2009-08-03, 12:57 PM
Can VoP own weapons that cost gp but are non-masterwork? If so, that gives a good argument for an exotic saddle.

Yes, VoP-people can own non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapons.

What's the most expensive simple weapon ? Heavy Crossbow .... but Light Crossbow is worth more gp per pound. Get as much as you can carry ... for profit ?! :smalltongue: Sorry, my mind was wandering.

Douglas
2009-08-03, 01:04 PM
I can just imagine a community of munchkin VoP characters using light crossbows as currency...:smallbiggrin:

I'd say any saddle that is clearly the Warblade's property and directly benefits only him should be legal. Indirect benefits to the Druid, such as a boost to the Warblade's Ride skill translating into increased AC for the Druid through the Warblade's Mounted Combat feat, don't count any more than custom gloves for the Warblade that do the same thing would.

Yuki Akuma
2009-08-03, 03:41 PM
Yes, VoP-people can own non-magical, non-masterwork simple weapons.

A single non-magical, non-masterwork weapon, in fact.

Yes, just one. And technically, if you bought a crossbow, you wouldn't be allowed to own ammunition, so better go with a sling and eat the penalty for slinging rocks.

ocato
2009-08-03, 04:01 PM
This vaguely reminds me of someone who once tried to con a DM into allowing him to get a druid cohort as his 5th level paladin mount. Not that the OP and his friend are doing anything wrong or munchkin-y. In fact, I wholeheartedly approve, even if both characters take toughness, weapon focus, and skill focus (basket-weaving), this is still a great idea.

Platinius
2009-08-03, 04:20 PM
I officially declare you AWESOME! nd I wouldn't worry too much your DM's choice, I am certain he'll go for the Rule of Cool

woodenbandman
2009-08-03, 04:28 PM
I second this.

OOT:

Do the bracers and monkey grip stack?


No. I'm away from books so I can't really recall the rationalization in this but I'm quite sure that this is the case. I've seen it explained and it made perfect sense to me, but for the life of me I can't remember the actual logic.

ColdSepp
2009-08-03, 04:31 PM
No. I'm away from books so I can't really recall the rationalization in this but I'm quite sure that this is the case. I've seen it explained and it made perfect sense to me, but for the life of me I can't remember the actual logic.

They do not stack, nor do they stack with Powerful Build. However, they would stack with Expansion or Enlarge Person.

Eldariel
2009-08-03, 04:37 PM
No. I'm away from books so I can't really recall the rationalization in this but I'm quite sure that this is the case. I've seen it explained and it made perfect sense to me, but for the life of me I can't remember the actual logic.

It's very simple: Neither increases your actual size. Both just allow you to wield weapons one category larger than you without the normal "it's one step heavier to wield"-restriction. Neither increases the category of weapon you can wield by one step.

So there's really no stacking possible; both say you can wield one step larger weapons and having that told to you twice doesn't mystically change one to say "you can wield two categories larger weapons". It's not even a question of stacking. They just state you can wield one category larger weapons so that's all they do regardless of how many such effects you have affecting you.

Amiria
2009-08-03, 04:42 PM
A single non-magical, non-masterwork weapon, in fact.

Yes, just one. And technically, if you bought a crossbow, you wouldn't be allowed to own ammunition, so better go with a sling and eat the penalty for slinging rocks.

Wrong, you can have more than one.


[...] You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. [...]

Emphasis mine. The half sentence about the single quarterstaff is just an example, just fluff, maybe RAI (who knows ?) but surely not RAW.

Jayabalard
2009-08-03, 05:11 PM
Monkey Grip doesn't work for weapons held in your off-hand.unless, of course, the DM has ruled otherwise... which seems to be the case.

lord_khaine
2009-08-03, 05:27 PM
I agree, the combo rocks pretty hard, and it should be possible to argue that the saddel is a sort of clothes.
At least using a saddel would not go against the RAI, imo.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-04, 02:40 AM
Thank you for the answers (and sorry for the OOT, OP :smallwink:)

Coidzor
2009-08-04, 04:59 AM
Here's pertinent information on the riding mechanics of it.

Rules of the Game: Mounts: 1-5

Part one (basics, spaces, moving while mounted) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a)

Part two (AoOs, unruly/aggressive mounts[YOU]) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a)

Part three (standard actions while mounted) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a)

Part four (actions while mounted continued) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a)


Part five(Intelligent mounts[that is, you], Mounted feats) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a)

Haven't seen charges mentioned yet as to whether it counts as the rider having charged... but I'm going to assume so, so long as the attack is used.

Frosty
2009-08-04, 11:59 AM
I believe it pretty much requires an exotic saddle unless you wanna take the penalties of riding bareback

Remember girls, never ride a male bareback!

tbarrie
2009-08-04, 12:34 PM
I think it does. A VoP can be [fed] a potion or have a wand used on them, but they can't borrow and wear a Cloak of Charisma. I think that example is from BoED.

But a Cloak of Charisma benefits the person wearing it. The saddle is there for the rider's benefit, not the mount's.

Plus, the saddle is non-magical. Surely a character with Vow of Poverty is allowed to wear mundane clothing? As long as the saddle in question isn't needlessly ornate or anything, I can't imagine many DMs would have a problem with it.

Coidzor
2009-08-04, 12:48 PM
Is there a hardcoded GP limit for the value of what is worn/carried or is it just no-masterwork, no magic and having to sacrifice the majority of any valuables one comes into contact with?

Deepblue706
2009-08-04, 02:07 PM
That's not really necessary, though, is it? It's only a -5 penalty on ride checks.

I thought Warblades don't have Ride as a class skill. Won't this actually be rather bad for them?

Riffington
2009-08-04, 02:25 PM
But a Cloak of Charisma benefits the person wearing it. The saddle is there for the rider's benefit, not the mount's.


This. The rule on Vow of Poverty is not that you can't be in physical contact with valuable things (being shot with a magic arrow doesn't make you lose your powers) but that you can't be the one who owns/uses them. The rider owns/uses the saddle, not the mount.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 02:34 PM
This. The rule on Vow of Poverty is not that you can't be in physical contact with valuable things (being shot with a magic arrow doesn't make you lose your powers) but that you can't be the one who owns/uses them. The rider owns/uses the saddle, not the mount.

You can actually use them. It says you can take potions from teammates and borrow expensive focuses from other wizards.

Krazddndfreek
2009-08-04, 02:49 PM
I thought Warblades don't have Ride as a class skill. Won't this actually be rather bad for them?

Doesn't matter, all the Warblade will be doing is trying to stay on. That's DC 5 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ride)

Jothki
2009-08-04, 02:58 PM
Part two (AoOs, unruly/aggressive mounts[YOU]) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a)

The aggressive mount rules appear to be for mounts that aren't trained to coordinate with their rider, and will attack as if they have no rider if the rider can't control them. Whether the druid is "trained" may be questionable depending on how long they've been attempting this, but they're at least trying to coordinate.

Coidzor
2009-08-04, 06:35 PM
The aggressive mount rules appear to be for mounts that aren't trained to coordinate with their rider, and will attack as if they have no rider if the rider can't control them. Whether the druid is "trained" may be questionable depending on how long they've been attempting this, but they're at least trying to coordinate.

Indeed. I was mainly referencing it for completeness's sake and this bit here.
Riding Along with an Aggressive Mount: If your mount isn't trained for war but chooses to fight with you aboard, you can just give the mount its head. You and your mount make separate initiative rolls. Because there are some full-round actions you cannot perform while your mount moves (see Parts Three and Four), you must delay until after your mount's turn to use such actions if your mount's turn in the initiative order comes before your own turn comes. Even then your mount's movements could keep you from performing your intended action.

When it's finally your turn to act, you must succeed on a DC 10 Ride check to adjust your actions to fit your mount's uncontrolled movements. The check is a move action for you, but it does not provoke attacks of opportunity. (You're looking after yourself, not your mount.) If you fail, your mount's movements keep you from taking any actions this round. If you succeed, you can use a standard action. Just remember that you're allowing your mount to take you where it will, so your options might prove limited.

The second half is a bit more questionable, since while the druid probably isn't used to carrying a rider, they're not being careless about 'em, either, probably.

Deepblue706
2009-08-05, 12:21 AM
Doesn't matter, all the Warblade will be doing is trying to stay on. That's DC 5 (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ride)

So if he has a 16 DEX (enough for TWF but I don't believe significantly more was suggested) and an armor check penalty of -2, I believe that's a 40% chance of him falling off when he's struck in combat, since a -5 to your +1 is a -4 on a DC 5 check.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-05, 12:46 AM
So if he has a 16 DEX (enough for TWF but I don't believe significantly more was suggested) and an armor check penalty of -2, I believe that's a 40% chance of him falling off when he's struck in combat, since a -5 to your +1 is a -4 on a DC 5 check.

They aren't prohibited from taking cross-class skills... A dex of 16 is a +3, take a -2 from armor, and you get a +1. So, 4 ranks in a cross-class skill can be obtained at level 5. Easily do-able. Or, if you want to not fail even when struck in combat, you need 9 ranks, which can be done by level 15.

Deepblue706
2009-08-05, 12:51 AM
They aren't prohibited from taking cross-class skills... A dex of 16 is a +3, take a -5 from armor, and you get a -2. So, 6 ranks in a cross-class skill can be obtained at level 9. Easily do-able.

Didn't say it was impossible. It's just that it's more of an investment they have to make for this gimmick.

Xefas
2009-08-05, 05:51 PM
Thank you all for the input, especially Coidzor with his links to the Rules of the Game stuff about Mounts, which was very helpful.

Last night we had another session, and the DM was fine with us having a saddle.

The rogue had been getting fed up with being the least useful character in the party (by a loooong shot), and asked the DM to let him change his character around. The DM agreed, and also let the rest of the players (including me and the Warblade) to do a little tweaking as well.

I introduced the rogue to the Tome of Battle, which he instantly loved, making his dude a Swordsage specialized heavily in Shadow Hand with a little of the less flashy Desert Wind and Diamond Mind. He's much happier now that he's up with the rest of the party in power.

But, more to the point of the thread, the Warblade finagled some Magic Items to get the Strongarm Bracers, and dumped Monkey Grip and Weapon Focus to get Mounted Combat and Ride-by-Attack (leading up to Spirited Charge next time she gets a feat).

I'm really liking this DM, as he does seem to allow the Rule of Cool when appropriate.

For instance, we were fighting a Harpy Archer (CR 11) in a forested area. The trees in said forest were, however, Sandbox trees (also known as Monkey No Climb Trees, google image one of those), and thus covered in sharp spikes all the way up.

The Sorcerer and the Warlock were doing okay (Fireballing and Baleful Utterancing the thing's straps holding the quivers, respectively), but I was in Lion form, out of Wild Shapes for the day, and the Warblade and Swordsage had no ranged weapon (other than Shadow Garrote, which the Swordsage could only use so often).

So, we had the Swordsage Shadow Jaunt up to a branch (past the spikes) near the Harpy. With the Warblade riding me, I ran/climbed straight up the tree (all the trees in the area were on fire, by the way, due to the Sorcerer's fireballs), taking piercing and fire damage as I went. As we got up high enough, I made a jump check towards the Harpy, bounding off the tree, as the Warblade made a jump check off of me in mid air, and the Swordsage jumped off the branch, ran along me in mid air, jumped onto the back of the Warblade, and both of them grabbed at and attacked the Harpy.

We all took some bad falling damage, but it was epic at the time.

Right now I'm looking into ways to speak with the party while Wildshaped into a Lion (other than casting Speak With Animals every time I need to say something :smallannoyed:).

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-05, 06:43 PM
Grab some hands of man from Savage Species, and learn drow sign language?

...Oh. Right. VoP...

EmperorSarda
2009-08-05, 07:08 PM
Right now I'm looking into ways to speak with the party while Wildshaped into a Lion (other than casting Speak With Animals every time I need to say something :smallannoyed:).

Write on the ground with your paws?