Question about the Sapphire Guard

[Newspaper]

I was just rereading the comics and was looking over the battle between the Sapphire Guard and Xykon (comics 447 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) and 448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)) and I noticed that several members of the guard don't appear to be Paladins. Does anyone know if the guard is only comprised of Paladins and multiclassed Paladins (I know O-chul is a Fighter/Paladin) or are there some members that aren't Paladins? If so would they be considered 'Paladins' as a social class?

[Optimystik]

The Guard itself likely consisted of only Paladins, and Hinjo merely stationed some casters up there as support. Notice that when Soon activates his Martyrdom effect, only paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) are raised. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) It would also fit in with Soon's belief in the supremacy of the paladin class.

[Moogleking]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't higher level paladins gain access to Clerical magic? Maybe they're just paladins which decided to focus on it.

[Optimystik]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't higher level paladins gain access to Clerical magic? Maybe they're just paladins which decided to focus on it.

No, they have their own spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/paladinSpells.htm), separate from a cleric's. I don't know of any paladin spells that let them fly/levitate.

[V'icternus]

Maybe they were clerics/wizards/whatever before becoming paladins? Both the Paladin's of the Saphire guard that we've been given a history of multiclassed into it from something else. (Miko - Monk, O-Chul - Fighter)

Or, you know... could be anything, really.

[Snake-Aes]

The ones flying? Hardly paladins. Or were any of those shown on the deathless scene?

[BatRobin]

Ok, I'll start my post by saying you're wrong.

It wasn't Sapphire Guard VS Xykon. If it was, the battle would've been about 8 strips long. It was most of Azure City VS Xykon. The rest dropped out, converted like Tsukiko, or...well, Iunno anything else.


NO, I repeat NO, Sapphire Guard paladins were on the walls aside from Hinjo and Sangwaan (if she was Paladin/Cleric). They were ALL in the Throne Room, and my 8-9 strips theory would definetly be right when you see the small-ness of the Guard.

Take the V scene, for example. It was hir, a bunch of soldiers (not paladins), and a Cleric (or Fighter, not sure) for their leader.


I'm not trying to sound mean, just saying that maybe 3 Sapphire's were in the wall defense.

[Optimystik]

Maybe they were clerics/wizards/whatever before becoming paladins? Both the Paladin's of the Saphire guard that we've been given a history of multiclassed into it from something else. (Miko - Monk, O-Chul - Fighter)

Or, you know... could be anything, really.

A paladin/wizard or even paladin/cleric would be an inordinately inefficient multiclass combination without some kind of prestige class in there, but it's not impossible. However, in my previous post I pointed out that none of the robe-wearers were raised by Soon during his martyrdom effect; this indicates that they had no paladin levels.


Ok, I'll start my post by saying you're wrong.

Who?

[BatRobin]

A paladin/wizard or even paladin/cleric would be an inordinately inefficient multiclass combination without some kind of prestige class in there, but it's not impossible. However, in my previous post I pointed out that none of the robe-wearers were raised by Soon during his martyrdom effect; this indicates that they had no paladin levels.

Actually, they probably were paladins and were just being raised at different off-screen times. Between panels, more and more were raised, so it's not totally unlikely. Look at the 'alive' shot of the paladins and the 'ghost' shot of them. There seems to be about the same amount. Then again, you're most likely right, but i don't see why anyone who wasn't a Paladin or multiclassed from one, could be in there with the Sapphire Guard, unless there weren't enough Paladin/Clerics.

[Newspaper]

Ok, I'll start my post by saying you're wrong.

It wasn't Sapphire Guard VS Xykon. If it was, the battle would've been about 8 strips long. It was most of Azure City VS Xykon. The rest dropped out, converted like Tsukiko, or...well, Iunno anything else.


NO, I repeat NO, Sapphire Guard paladins were on the walls aside from Hinjo and Sangwaan (if she was Paladin/Cleric). They were ALL in the Throne Room, and my 8-9 strips theory would definetly be right when you see the small-ness of the Guard.

Take the V scene, for example. It was hir, a bunch of soldiers (not paladins), and a Cleric (or Fighter, not sure) for their leader.


I'm not trying to sound mean, just saying that maybe 3 Sapphire's were in the wall defense.

Umm... actually I wasn't referring to the whole war just the battle between Xykon and the Sapphire Guard inside the throne room. I'm sorry if you got confused but it's nice to see that you care. :smallsmile:

[Optimystik]

Actually, they probably were paladins and were just being raised at different off-screen times. Between panels, more and more were raised, so it's not totally unlikely. Look at the 'alive' shot of the paladins and the 'ghost' shot of them. There seems to be about the same amount. Then again, you're most likely right, but i don't see why anyone who wasn't a Paladin or multiclassed from one, could be in there with the Sapphire Guard, unless there weren't enough Paladin/Clerics.

Whereas I don't see why they couldn't. Just because the casters can't be raised along with the paladins doesn't mean they can't be useful in the battle while alive. (Well, they weren't, but nobody could have predicted Xykon's trick; even Redcloak didn't think it would work.)

The fact remains that there are no caster ghosts among the martyrs.

[factotum]

The Guard itself likely consisted of only Paladins, and Hinjo merely stationed some casters up there as support.

Hinjo explicitly states that he only stationed paladins of the Sapphire Guard in the throne room in the same strip (#449) that you linked to. Therefore, the casters you see are still paladins of the Sapphire Guard, which means that either they're multiclassed, or else "paladin" is a courtesy title as well as a class title (much in the same way as "samurai" is for Miko).

[MReav]

Hinjo expressly states that only paladins were stationed in the Throne Room. I'm guessing they weren't in screen, but you'll note the black haired girl that doesn't seem to be wearing any armor in the top center (looking like a Monk).

I'm thinking a large portion of the top Sapphire Guard (not the newbies on the wall or out on official errands) were multiclassed paladins.

[Optimystik]

Hinjo explicitly states that he only stationed paladins of the Sapphire Guard in the throne room in the same strip (#449) that you linked to. Therefore, the casters you see are still paladins of the Sapphire Guard, which means that either they're multiclassed, or else "paladin" is a courtesy title as well as a class title (much in the same way as "samurai" is for Miko).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

"He returned to Azure City and selected the noblest samurai to join him as his paladins. He named his fighting force the Sapphire Guard."

Before that: "Your magic can be dispelled or disrupted. Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable."

Heavily suggesting that only paladins were raised by his Martyrdom.

[V'icternus]

Maybe only NPC's with a certain ammount of levels in Paladin could be raised, but you only need one level in it to be part of the Sapphire Guard?

[veti]

Okay, so re-reading that scene now, I'm wondering - why does O-Chul make his dash for the Gate?

He, and two other paladins, have Xykon down, and there's at least one living caster who's made her Will save. If they all started whaling on the prone lich, wouldn't they have a realistic chance to stop him from ever getting up long enough to cast another spell...?

When O-Chul realises the Symbol of Insanity trick, he leaves Xykon and makes a beeline for the Gate. But all the SoI has done is kill off most of the Sapphire Guard, which is exactly what they had planned to happen. From the Guards' point of view, everything's going completely on schedule at that point.

So why try to destroy the Gate at all? Did Xykon make a closet "Suggestion", or is that what a +30 Bluff skill does for you?

[factotum]

Okay, so re-reading that scene now, I'm wondering - why does O-Chul make his dash for the Gate?

He, and two other paladins, have Xykon down, and there's at least one living caster who's made her Will save. If they all started whaling on the prone lich, wouldn't they have a realistic chance to stop him from ever getting up long enough to cast another spell...?


Well, eventually Xykon would make his Concentration check...we only saw ONE spell fizzle, and he's epic level; remember how surprised he was that the apparently epic V managed to fail a Concentration check so easily? Meanwhile you have a whole room full of insane paladins trying to kill you from behind, and you're not doing enough damage to Xykon to slow him down much anyway thanks to his Damage Reduction. Staying anywhere near Xykon once you've lost 90% of your force is a recipe for disaster, and O-Chul knew it.

[MReav]

Okay, so re-reading that scene now, I'm wondering - why does O-Chul make his dash for the Gate?

He, and two other paladins, have Xykon down, and there's at least one living caster who's made her Will save. If they all started whaling on the prone lich, wouldn't they have a realistic chance to stop him from ever getting up long enough to cast another spell...?

When O-Chul realises the Symbol of Insanity trick, he leaves Xykon and makes a beeline for the Gate. But all the SoI has done is kill off most of the Sapphire Guard, which is exactly what they had planned to happen. From the Guards' point of view, everything's going completely on schedule at that point.

So why try to destroy the Gate at all? Did Xykon make a closet "Suggestion", or is that what a +30 Bluff skill does for you?

Only members of the royal family knew about the Ghost Martyrs. And there was only so long they could distract Xykon, since they have far fewer Smite Evils than Xykon has high level spells, and none of them were using blunt weapons so Xykon's DR would come into play big time.

[hamishspence]

I thought that, as ghosts (deathless?), they were making touch attacks- which aren't normal weapons and so ignore DR.

[Optimystik]

So why try to destroy the Gate at all? Did Xykon make a closet "Suggestion", or is that what a +30 Bluff skill does for you?

O-Chul made a tactical decision. Sure they made Xykon fizzle a 9th level spell, but that doesn't mean they prevented him from casting completely. One ghostform or flight to the ceiling would be enough to let him cast with impunity.


Only members of the royal family knew about the Ghost Martyrs. And there was only so long they could distract Xykon, since they have far fewer Smite Evils than Xykon has high level spells, and none of them were using blunt weapons so Xykon's DR would come into play big time.

Their weapons were neither slashing nor blunt - the "swords" were just ectoscopic projections of themselves. Notice that as the ghosts rise up, the real swords are left with the corpses.

As hamish said, they were making touch attacks, and they were likely doing positive energy damage to Xykon. Big daddy Soon was doing a buttload of such.

[MReav]

Their weapons were neither slashing nor blunt - the "swords" were just ectoscopic projections of themselves. Notice that as the ghosts rise up, the real swords are left with the corpses.

I was referring to when they were still alive. The living Paladins could not beat Xykon since once their Smites run out, they're going to slam into that DR and hard. At that point, if they didn't go for the Sapphire, he could have killed them with his touch attacks (even without the paralysis), and I doubt they would have knocked off more than a quarter of his total HP.

[Bibliomancer]

This was something that bugged me about the comic. Why didn't they equip the paladins with maces and have them use bless weapon spells to overcome the DR? Even if their other weapons were enchanted, the ability to overcome DR would outweigh a +2 or even +3 bonus to hit, easily. They knew that they would be fighting a lich. Were they really that inflexible?

[Optimystik]

I was referring to when they were still alive. The living Paladins could not beat Xykon since once their Smites run out, they're going to slam into that DR and hard. At that point, if they didn't go for the Sapphire, he could have killed them with his touch attacks (even without the paralysis), and I doubt they would have knocked off more than a quarter of his total HP.

Ah, my mistake. Yes, O-Chul running for the gem was the most logical move.


Were they really that inflexible?

This is Soon's personal club we're talking about; I'd say yes. It's clear that the Scribble found him at least to be infuriatingly obstinate, and it's a trait he's likely to have passed on to his paladins.

[Jagos]

This was something that bugged me about the comic. Why didn't they equip the paladins with maces and have them use bless weapon spells to overcome the DR? Even if their other weapons were enchanted, the ability to overcome DR would outweigh a +2 or even +3 bonus to hit, easily. They knew that they would be fighting a lich. Were they really that inflexible?

More than likely, time was an issue.

Think about how it's similar to equipping the Bandit force as Haley suggested.

The economic cost of so many Bless Waters (and so few clerics from what it looks like) says that they did the best with the time they had already. Factor in all of the things that dropped morale and they don't really have much to work with.

[Thanatosia]

A paladin/wizard or even paladin/cleric would be an inordinately inefficient multiclass combination without some kind of prestige class in there.
Some of the Robed ones could be Sorcerors with a Token Paladin Level. I've known several min-maxers who have given their sorcs a Paladin level (maybe it was 2) in order to convert their high cha scores into three-way saving throw bonuses, various immunities and protections vs fear and diseases, and pick up a bunch of weapon and armor proficiencies (useful with extensive use of still spells).

[veti]

They knew that they would be fighting a lich. Were they really that inflexible?

Correction: we know, with 20/20 hindsight, that they were to fight a lich. But that's not what anyone expected to happen at the time. They thought they'd be fighting an army of hobgoblins, plus magical and undead support. Very different proposition.

Xykon personally making a beeline for the throne room? - took everyone by surprise. Even Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html).

[Thanatosia]

Correction: we know, with 20/20 hindsight, that they were to fight a lich. But that's not what anyone expected to happen at the time. They thought they'd be fighting an army of hobgoblins, plus magical and undead support. Very different proposition.

Xykon personally making a beeline for the throne room? - took everyone by surprise. Even Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html).
Agreed. I don't think the Sapphire Guard realized what a badass Xykon was, they knew a Lich was coming, but I don't think they knew he was epic-leveled and so far above everything else in the evil army and that he represented such a disproportionate threat compaired to the rest of the forces decending on the city.

Remember, at this point they were still working off the knowledge that Roy more or less single handedly trounced him once (nevermind that he did it through a lucky circumstance with the gate-zapper in durokars dungeon near at hand) and Roy Lept up to engage Xykon in single combat thinking the Lich was in his Level range approximately.

But even if they did know what a threat Xykon was, I dont think it would have changed anything.... they were never realy there to stop a serious threat to the Sapphire Throne alive, that hope rested on Roy's Party.... they were knowingly put there as Reinforcements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) to the Ghost Martyrs, and the plan was for them to die. Any threat they could have overcome alive would have been well within the CR capabilities of the OOTS to handle, so any threat strong enough to make it to them, was a threat they had to sacrifice to in order to defend against.

[Malphemism]

It's entirely plausible that the Guard's spellcasters were all multiclassed paladins (with the sacred 2 level paladin dip). Sure, two lost caster levels is a bad deal for a wizard or cleric. But multiclassing to wizard/cleric is frequently a good deal for a beatstick!

Paladin synergizes well with Sorcerer. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is all kinds of awesome: BAB 16, the potential for 9th level spells, solid HP. And its a class combination that makes pretty total fluff sense for a Sapphire. Even more vanilla is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2, which is also BAB 16 but 8th level spells.

With Devoted Performer, Paladins make amazing Sublime Chords at Paladin 2/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 1/Eldritch Knight X. Take the right feats, and you can even add CHA to hit while dual wielding your katana/wakizashi. Somehow the Guard didn't seem hip enough for that, but that could just be Miko ruining their rep for me.

Multiclassed divine paladins don't even need prestige classes. Paladin 2/Favored Soul X gives you a "cleric" who usually makes reflex saves and would have laughed off that Symbol (for extra win, dip into Divine Oracle). Even Paladin 2/Cleric X can be justified on a build with Divine Metamagic/Divine Might and Intuitive Attack-- it's a suboptimal cleric but an amazing paladin. If you do mix in prestige classes, you can do cheesy stuff like Paladin 8/Divine Crusader 4/Dip (Church Inquisitor 4, Contemplative 2, Divine Oracle 2).

Of course, none of that is pertinent to whether they were Martyred... but it occurs to me that real spellcasters have Contingencied Teleports/Planeshifts to distant temples with prepaid true rez policies. That could be why we don't see any of them-- maybe they're already out of the area of effect! (Ignore the pile of corpses, please)

[factotum]

That grab-bag of multiclassing you're listing is way beyond the paladins in that throne room. We know that Miko, at around level 16, was the most powerful paladin in the Guard; even reduced to Fighter Without Bonus Feats she handily trounced Hinjo, the second most powerful paladin. Anyone in the throne room had to be lower level than that, so we're talking around level 11 max; nowhere near the level 20 you've got most of your selections at!

[Optimystik]

Some of the Robed ones could be Sorcerors with a Token Paladin Level. I've known several min-maxers who have given their sorcs a Paladin level (maybe it was 2) in order to convert their high cha scores into three-way saving throw bonuses, various immunities and protections vs fear and diseases, and pick up a bunch of weapon and armor proficiencies (useful with extensive use of still spells).

This is possible, and I admit I didn't consider sorcerers. It was 1 level in 3.0, and became 2 in 3.5 when Divine Grace was moved further down the Paladin feature list. However, doing so doesn't pay off until level 20, when you have 9th level spells and the paladin bonuses. Until then, your sorcerer is a whopping 2 whole spell levels behind a single-class wizard. (Paladin 2/Sorc 3 vs. Wizard 5.) You're also giving up precious Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft ranks if you do it early. It may not be as bad a combination as a paladin/wizard, but it's still not something they should be doing that early on, so I stand by my inefficiency statement.

But the most important point remains unanswered; namely that Soon didn't raise any of the robe-wearing casters when he did his martyrdom. They could have been raised off-panel, but wouldn't Rich have put even one in the splash frame of awesome? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) In addition, we see TWO robed casters explicitly having no spirits rise out of them in that same strip - A cleric in panel 6, bottom right corner, and another caster in panel 8 on top of the corpse pile.

So I ask again: if they had paladin levels, why did Soon not raise them?

[MReav]

So I ask again: if they had paladin levels, why did Soon not raise them?

They might have been raised off screen and kept offscreen.

[Optimystik]

They might have been raised off screen and kept offscreen.

If they were raised offscreen, it was done after the other paladins, because in the two panels I pointed out we see no spirits rising from the robed bodies. If Rich had wanted to draw the spell affecting them, he would have; I maintain they are not paladins.

[MReav]

If they were raised offscreen, it was done after the other paladins, because in the two panels I pointed out we see no spirits rising from the robed bodies. If Rich had wanted to draw the spell affecting them, he would have; I maintain they are not paladins.

Alternatively, they were done before the other paladins, since they were on the edge of the death area closest to Soon. I mean, we don't see Pendant Girl's ghost either at any point (leftmost corpse). Should I assume she didn't get raised either?

[Optimystik]

Alternatively, they were done before the other paladins, since they were on the edge of the death area closest to Soon. I mean, we don't see Pendant Girl's ghost either at any point (leftmost corpse). Should I assume she didn't get raised either?

Pendant girl? The only characters I saw with pendants were the clerics, the pendants in question being their holy symbols. So yes, we wouldn't see her corpse, because Soon didn't raise the clerics, only the paladins. Or are you referring to someone I didn't see? :smallconfused:

[MReav]

Pendant girl? The only characters I saw with pendants were the clerics, the pendants in question being their holy symbols. So yes, we wouldn't see her corpse, because Soon didn't raise the clerics, only the paladins. Or are you referring to someone I didn't see? :smallconfused:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html, the girl on the far left, she's in paladin armour.

[Optimystik]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html, the girl on the far left, she's in paladin armour.

Ah! I see now. There are two easy possibilities here:

1) She is one of the obscured paladins in Soon's splash panel. (There is a female behind his speech bubble that I can't make out clearly, and several at the top of the screen with rounded bottoms but no visible top half.) Note that a robe-wearing ghost would still be easy to pick out in these circumstances, but we don't see any.

2) She's a cleric. They CAN wear armor, after all, and the pendant could be a holy symbol. That would explain why her ghost isn't visible anywhere; she was left dead with the others.

Either way, her seeming absence proves nothing either way. We know all the paladins were raised, but we still see no other classes getting this treatment in the scene. If you find a robed ghost, please point it out to me.

[MReav]

Can I point out an armourless one instead?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

[Optimystik]

Can I point out an armourless one instead?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

She is clearly a paladin, as no cleric, sorcerer or otherwise would be wielding a katana. Possibly, she's a paladin/monk like Miko that went the armorless route; or a paladin/rogue wearing blue leather. She is also depicted in the splash panel of Soon's battle cry.

[V'icternus]

My votes still casted for "They're all paladins, but the ones that were raised had (for example) at least two levels of Paladin (or some other level ammount)".

[Optimystik]

My votes still casted for "They're all paladins, but the ones that were raised had (for example) at least two levels of Paladin (or some other level ammount)".

That's certainly possible, if a bit arbitrary.

[Aaron]

If you find a robed ghost, please point it out to me.


How about comic 459, in the last three panels? (can't do links right now)

[Optimystik]

How about comic 459, in the last three panels? (can't do links right now)

That's a cloak (with cowl), not a robe, similar to what Miko wore in her first appearance, and Belkar's disguise. Soon rose no casters.

[Thanatosia]

But the most important point remains unanswered; namely that Soon didn't raise any of the robe-wearing casters when he did his martyrdom. They could have been raised off-panel, but wouldn't Rich have put even one in the splash frame of awesome?
The simple answer may just be that you are not looking at the Splash Frame of Awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) close enough IMO.

Look Directly above Soon's Head, above the part of his hair. You can clearly see the cowl of a blue-robed Paladin standing directly behind Soon. There is another one wearing a White Cowl just to the left of his sword, visable between Soon's 2 speach bubbles. There is a third cowl-wearing violetish robed figure just behind Soon's Boots. Now, the cowl-robed ones are not the ones we see flying in throne room, but there are only 2 of those total that we can see, and all we'd have to go by to identify them would be their faces, since we dont get a clear look at the full body of most of the paladins in the splash page, all we would see of their robes would be indisinguishable from blue armor/clothes.

I can say that several of the paladins do seem to be wearing cloth, because they lack the plate shoulderpads that seems to distinguish the armored ones - cloth vs plate can be hard to identify in a stick figure drawing without tell-tales like the shoulderplates.

Finaly, It does however look to me like the paladin we see on the far far right edge of the panel, just barely poking into it, is wearing a white blind-fold, similar to the blue one the oracle wore. It could possibly be a visor or some kind, but if so its unlike any other visor helm we'd seen anywhere because the side of the paladins face is shown exposed.

[Armitage]

Finaly, It does however look to me like the paladin we see on the far far right edge of the panel, just barely poking into it, is wearing a white blind-fold, similar to the blue one the oracle wore. It could possibly be a visor or some kind, but if so its unlike any other visor helm we'd seen anywhere because the side of the paladins face is shown exposed.
Actually, It looks just like the visor we see three persons left of him or one left, two above.
One can even see the "horns" thingy above the visor.

[Optimystik]

The simple answer may just be that you are not looking at the Splash Frame of Awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) close enough IMO.

Look Directly above Soon's Head, above the part of his hair. You can clearly see the cowl of a blue-robed Paladin standing directly behind Soon. There is another one wearing a White Cowl just to the left of his sword, visable between Soon's 2 speach bubbles. There is a third cowl-wearing violetish robed figure just behind Soon's Boots. Now, the cowl-robed ones are not the ones we see flying in throne room, but there are only 2 of those total that we can see, and all we'd have to go by to identify them would be their faces, since we dont get a clear look at the full body of most of the paladins in the splash page, all we would see of their robes would be indisinguishable from blue armor/clothes.

You responded to your own point. All the cowls you pointed out belong to cloaked paladins, not robed casters. The casters in the throne room aren't wearing cowls, and while alive they are either flying above the room, have magical energy around their hands, or both. None of those individuals were raised, which was my point.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it; it's just a strong indication that the individuals left dead weren't paladins. As for off-panel raising, Redcloak poofed every single ghost in the room except Soon, and we still didn't see one. Even if they were raised off-panel, they would have had to come on panel eventually. The Giant left them out on purpose, because they weren't paladins.


I can say that several of the paladins do seem to be wearing cloth, because they lack the plate shoulderpads that seems to distinguish the armored ones - cloth vs plate can be hard to identify in a stick figure drawing without tell-tales like the shoulderplates.

Yes, but caster robes are easily distinguishable from armor in OotS. None of the ghosts are wearing them.


Finaly, It does however look to me like the paladin we see on the far far right edge of the panel, just barely poking into it, is wearing a white blind-fold like the oracle did.

That guy is wearing a helm with a visor - see the horns on his brow poking above what you thought was a blindfold? He's a paladin too. A paladin wearing a blue version of this helmet is on the far left on panel 7 of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) standing behind the cleric.

[Moogleking]

So I ask again: if they had paladin levels, why did Soon not raise them?

While I agree with you, I should point out that the hooded paladin/whatever does not get raised on panel and is seen as a ghost later on.

[Bibliomancer]

More than likely, time was an issue.

Think about how it's similar to equipping the Bandit force as Haley suggested.

The economic cost of so many Bless Waters (and so few clerics from what it looks like) says that they did the best with the time they had already. Factor in all of the things that dropped morale and they don't really have much to work with.

Bless Weapon is a paladin spell, 1st level. Any 4th level paladin can cast it. It would still have been logical.


This is Soon's personal club we're talking about; I'd say yes. It's clear that the Scribble found him at least to be infuriatingly obstinate, and it's a trait he's likely to have passed on to his paladins.

So...what race were they? According to anything that bothers to talk about humans, they're flexible and adaptable. In races of destiny it specifically states that a human army would change weapons in the face of an undead horde to overcome DR.


Correction: we know, with 20/20 hindsight, that they were to fight a lich. But that's not what anyone expected to happen at the time. They thought they'd be fighting an army of hobgoblins, plus magical and undead support. Very different proposition.

Xykon personally making a beeline for the throne room? - took everyone by surprise. Even Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html).

Actually, Xykon going there was the original plan, except with stealth.

Also, even if they kept their other weapons, how hard would it have been to equip every non-caster with a normal light mace, which costs less than 10 gp?

[Optimystik]

So...what race were they? According to anything that bothers to talk about humans, they're flexible and adaptable. In races of destiny it specifically states that a human army would change weapons in the face of an undead horde to overcome DR.

Change to what? All I saw around the azure fortress were katanas and halberds.


Also, even if they kept their other weapons, how hard would it have been to equip every non-caster with a normal light mace, which costs less than 10 gp?

You're assuming that a normal light mace with bless weapon (+1, min./level) is better than the magical katanas with which they presumably have. One area dispel would leave them up a creek.

[Malphemism]

That grab-bag of multiclassing you're listing is way beyond the paladins in that throne room. We know that Miko, at around level 16, was the most powerful paladin in the Guard; even reduced to Fighter Without Bonus Feats she handily trounced Hinjo, the second most powerful paladin. Anyone in the throne room had to be lower level than that, so we're talking around level 11 max; nowhere near the level 20 you've got most of your selections at!

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that Soon had a bunch of level 20 minions-- I was just presenting full progressions. All of these builds are viable casters by 8, except the Sublime Paladin.


This is possible, and I admit I didn't consider sorcerers. It was 1 level in 3.0, and became 2 in 3.5 when Divine Grace was moved further down the Paladin feature list. However, doing so doesn't pay off until level 20, when you have 9th level spells and the paladin bonuses. Until then, your sorcerer is a whopping 2 whole spell levels behind a single-class wizard. (Paladin 2/Sorc 3 vs. Wizard 5.) You're also giving up precious Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft ranks if you do it early. It may not be as bad a combination as a paladin/wizard, but it's still not something they should be doing that early on, so I stand by my inefficiency statement.

I agree that a Wizard 5 is a much better wizard than a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3. And that until prestige levels (7th), these are flawed characters ("just two more levels of sucking ass!"). But I think you're overly bleak about the pre-20 build. A pure optimizer will never sacrifice spell levels, but by 9th level or so an Abjurant Paladin is a very solid character: he has tremendous saving throws, good hit points (averaging d8 or so), and light armor under his robes. His spells are lower level then a Wizard's, but the abjurations are enhanced with extend, quicken, and other cookies for free, and he can burn slots to enhance his melee fighting. That's at least competitive to becoming an arcane trickster, which typically also gives up 3 caster levels.

A Paladin 2/Favored Soul X has less synergy, but also doesn't have the intermediate period of sucking. Think of it as a Paladin with extra spellcasting oomph instead of a Cleric with better saves, if you want. At level 10, you have level 4 spells: that's 4 levels earlier than your brother paladins. You have a real point about the Sublime Paladin, though; he's just a slightly tough bard until level 11, and that's a real hard sell. Once you get there, though....

The biggest motivator behind these builds is simple role-playing, though. Let's say that you grow up wanting to be in the Sapphire Guard, but are a bard, favored soul, or sorcerer by profession. Well, to get in you have to go through Paladin Basic. A lot of people will turn their noses up at that-- but those that don't will end up with builds like these.


But the most important point remains unanswered; namely that Soon didn't raise any of the robe-wearing casters when he did his martyrdom. So I ask again: if they had paladin levels, why did Soon not raise them?

To be raised you have to be willing, and your soul needs to be available for the calling. A 12th level character who is a Paladin 2/Arcane Caster X can have a Contingent Teleport (OMG I'm dead); lower level characters can, too, by forking some gold over for scrolls. Prepaying for a raise somewhere far away from the duty station you might be killed at is very doable. I still think it's plausible that at least some of these guys had been raised elsewhere by the time Soon's martyrdom went off. As Xykon pointed out, any caster worth his salt stays in the game.

I think other theories (offscreen ghosts, minimum paladin level, not actually paladins) are more likely-- but I like mine!

P.S. To toss on some wild speculation: if the Martyrdom brings the fallen back as Einherjar or the equivalent, it may be that they all were brought back, but as iconic paladins in appearance (or even without their non-Paladin levels).

[Optimystik]

I agree that a Wizard 5 is a much better wizard than a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3. And that until prestige levels (7th), these are flawed characters ("just two more levels of sucking ass!"). But I think you're overly bleak about the pre-20 build.
*snip*


Please note I was only referring to pure combinations of base classes. I already allowed for the possibility of a prestige class that would make such a poor combination viable.


To be raised you have to be willing, and your soul needs to be available for the calling. A 12th level character who is a Paladin 2/Arcane Caster X can have a Contingent Teleport (OMG I'm dead). Prepaying for a raise is very doable. I still think it's plausible that at least some of these guys had been raised elsewhere by the time Soon's martyrdom went off. As Xykon pointed out, any caster worth his salt stays in the game.

Their bodies are still in the room, so that would be one heck of a contingency if so. :smallconfused: And assuming they somehow all set up True Resurrection arrangements, their existing corpses would transform into featureless masses of inert flesh.


P.S. To toss on some wild speculation: if the Martyrdom brings the fallen back as Einherjar or the equivalent, it may be that they all were brought back, but as iconic paladins in appearance (or even without their non-Paladin levels).

BoED: Risen Martyrs retain both their class levels and living appearance; they merely get the Deathless template tacked on. I'm not saying Rich lifted this detail wholesale, but he has no reason to turn a dead cleric into a dead paladin either.

[Malphemism]

A) Without at least Eldritch Knight the arcane builds are moderately depressing, yeah. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4+ isn't so bad, but you feel dumber and dumber as you get into the higher levels, get worse and worse at melee, and are looking at the next higher level of Resistance and comparing it to your Divine Grace. Paladin 2/Favored Soul X doesn't need a prestige class, obviously.

B)Well, before I said shush about the bodies.... no reason to let reality get in the way of an otherwise perfectly good theory.

C)Yeah, Risen Martyrs sounds like a shoe-in for the spell. Which still begs your question-- why not also raise the casters?

[Optimystik]

C)Yeah, Risen Martyrs sounds like a shoe-in for the spell. Which still begs your question-- why not also raise the casters?

Oh I know why (paladins get special treatment), my difficulty is convincing others.

Having a solid why for the paladin-bias would be nice too. It's easy to dismiss it as Soon's classism, for which we already have evidence, but it's not like the clerics and arcanists didn't give their all for the cause either. A more palatable explanation is that there is something special about paladins that makes the spell work on them.

[Malphemism]

You know.... we shouldn't rule out cold-blooded efficiency. You top off a paladin/fighter/monk's HP and he's good to go. That's not true of casters; they need their spells, and those might not be reset by the effect. Soon may have assumed that any caster guardians would have used almost all their spells before dying, and raise dead type effects often burn out spell slots in any case. If we assume that the Martyrdom had a limited number of maximum targets, it would make sense to have it raise your beatsticks, and not your empty casters if you could engineer some selective targeting.

[Optimystik]

You know.... we shouldn't rule out cold-blooded efficiency. You top off a paladin/fighter/monk's HP and he's good to go. That's not true of casters; they need their spells, and those might not be reset by the effect. Soon may have assumed that any caster guardians would have used almost all their spells before dying, and raise dead type effects often burn out spell slots in any case. If we assume that the Martyrdom had a limited number of maximum targets, it would make sense to have it raise your beatsticks, and not your empty casters if you could engineer some selective targeting.

Spells or not, they would still be a pain for Xykon and Redcloak. (The ghosts were exclusively using incorporeal, positive-energy touch attacks; even the sorcerers would be hitting fairly regularly.) I agree with you that if there is a numerical limitation of some kind that it would make more sense to get the paladins up and around first, though.