Community Worldbuilding Project [Ishka: Urban and Urbane] [Archive] - Page 4

jagadaishio

2010-04-17, 05:51 PM

On the topic of Magetown.

I know that we had listed a specific Mages' District earlier in the thread; it was supposed to be a foil to the Academy, in that the Academy is where one goes for learning and the Mages' District is where one goes to apply it in practical ways. It was suggested that the Mages' District was where the main portal to the Astral Plane would be located, attached to a MASSIVE interstellar port for flying Astral merchant vessels. This is also the district where there is so much magical run-off that a Great Work can be powered by it.

I find it perfectly reasonable to squish Mage Town and the Mages' District into one district. Magetown would probably be the "lower class" section of the Mages' District - the place where the people with less-marketable magic like sorcery tend to live. The upper class and merchant class would be wizards and other people with controllable, predictable magic. I could see definite discrimination between the rich parts of the district and the poor part, perhaps even gangs of rich wizard and artificer kids throwing down versus gangs of sorcerers and warlocks.

The question, then, is what the official name of the district would be. I think that the Mages' District makes the most sense because of how basic it is. It would, however, be called Magetown to the point that nobody would call it the Mages' District in anything but the stuffiest of dialogues. It's like one of those universities that's only ever referred to by its initials. So, Magetown (the Mages' District to those fat, dry asses in Mithral Heights) would be set up in three tiered rings. Starting in the center, the first ring would be the merchant area, with the Astral Plaza at the center. The next ring out would be where the richer people tend to live, mostly Wizards and Artificers. The third ring would be where the lower class tends to live, with sorcerers and warlocks.

This would add some new slang to the city. Specifically, it would provide a descriptor for a particular mage. In the same way that a person's level of dryness or wetness denotes their wealth or poverty, a mage's circle would tell people a lot about his traditions, method, and expected income. A third-circle mage is probably a sorcerer or a warlock - people who don't have many tricks, but can repeat them often. They're expected to be rather poor, and people called a third-ring mage when you're a second- or first-ring mage is a significant insult. A second-circle mage is a mage with a marketable talent. These are wizards and artificers that one would expect to own a shop somewhere selling potions and services.

A first-circle mage is more of an achieved title than an inherent mark. A first-circle mage is anyone with arcane ability who becomes an adventurer, who "crosses through the first ring." Be they a plane-hopping gatekeeper, a member of the elemental guard, or a corsair who plies the Astral currents on his own vessel, a first-circle mage is one who finds owning a successful shop dissatisfying and therefore goes adventuring. A third-circle gang probably sees low-rank individuals brown-nosing to their leaders by saying something like, "He's a real first-circle kind of guy, you know?"

Being a first-circle mage is a mixed basket. It's a lot like being a rock star. Sure, people are going to want stories, and they'll buy you free drinks. Professionals tend not to take you seriously, though, when it comes to "serious" business. After all, what could you know about balancing an inventory or negotiating a trade? While everyone growing up in Magetown wants to be one when they're little, most would rather be a second-circle mage by the time they've grown up.

The Anarresti

2010-04-17, 08:40 PM

That sounds really good. The third circle would be the largest one, however. Consider Ishka: the large majority of people with poorly-understood powers (Sorcerers, Warlocks, Harrowed, etc) would live here. Teenage runaways and families with sorcerous blood to the umpteenth generation. The population of wizards and other applied magicians would be split between those at the University (would would live in the District) and those who are merchants. The one objection I have is that I doubt adventuring magicians would have their own district. It's not like "Adventurer" is an accepted profession: the captain of a pirate ship, an Occult Investigator, a University Field Archeologist (think Indiana Jones) would all be adventurers, but they would all come from different social strata, have different reasons for adventuring, live in different districts, and everything else.
And the reason I put up Magetown is because the Magician's ghetto seems to be totally different than the magical shop district, poor and residential rather than rich and mercantile. It's not like Ishka is a planned city, where everything follows a logical pattern and is laid out with precisely one district for everything.
Also, a wizard would rarely join a gang: by the time they had mastered the simplest of spells, they would be at least in their early thirties, too old for street gangs.
EDIT: Scratch what I strikethroughed. In retrospect, you're probably right: although adventurers would be from different social strata and motivations, they would share a similar mindset, and so would flock to the same bars, to the same apartment complexes, etc.

Erutaron

2010-04-17, 09:04 PM

I'm glad you all enjoyed my quick sketch of Ishka, I just threw that together quickly. One thing i'm trying to work on right now is definitive map.

I was wondering if you all could do a quick sketch of your imaginings and sending them to me, and then I can blend them all together.

And to clarify on the dimensions of Ishka is 500mi long, canyon is 5-10mi wide (with variations of course), city extends 20-30mi either side of the canyon. The only thing left is the size of the lake, has this been nailed down?

oh right..

[email protected]

Renrik

2010-04-17, 09:27 PM

^ I'm an abysmal artist, so I won't.

On the topic of Magetown, messing with a gang of warlocks is a bad idea if you're a caster with a limited number of spells per day. If they outlast the first spells you throw at them, and you run out, they can batter you with their blast for a long time.

erictheredd

2010-04-17, 10:10 PM

how do I send a picture?

Arathnos

2010-04-17, 10:33 PM

On the topic of Magetown, messing with a gang of warlocks is a bad idea if you're a caster with a limited number of spells per day. If they outlast the first spells you throw at them, and you run out, they can batter you with their blast for a long time.

Messing with a gang of Warlocks IS a bad idea, but a snobby upper class wizard's son might not know enough to think that far ahead. He views his powers as superior. He has true magic, warlocks have corrupt, dirty fiend blood.

The Anarresti

2010-04-17, 11:12 PM

I can imagine a group of sorcerers sneaking on the Univerisity campus and arcane locking all the doors in the dorm.

jagadaishio

2010-04-17, 11:18 PM

I actually didn't mean to imply that the first-circle mages would congregate to a certain circle of the district. While secon- and third-circle mages tend to live in their respective circles, the first-circle mages are only called that because the portal to the Astral Plane is the centerpiece of the first circle, aka the market neighborhood. Nobody really lives in the first circle. It's a place that travelers pass through and people open shop in. The fact that it has the highest concentration of inns in Magetown are the closest thing to justification for saying that's where the first-circle mages live. No, the thing that groups them together is the fact that they don't settle down. Instead, they're Astral pirates, explorers, adventurers, and other Indiana Jones types.

As for the population of Magetown, I expect that there would be easily twice as many people in the third circle as the second. It just makes sense that there would be more untrained sorcerers than there would be people who have magical talent AND got training for it as a wizard AND decided to sell it in Magetown. That said, I think that the second circle would have easily twice the wealth of the third circle with easily-marketable libraries of spells and magic items. As such, the average second-circle mage is four times as wealthy as the average third-circle mage, given that there is twice as much wealth concentrated into half as many people.

All this said, a mage's circle would come up in conversation about as much as whether someone is a blue or white collar worker. It's something that's usually tacitly understood when the mage describes their talent that most people won't even comment on it. It's not impolite, it's just unnecessary. Mage circles tend to be used in politics more than anywhere else, whether petitioning for third-circle rights or trying to get favorable taxes for second-circle workers.

"I grew up in a third-circle family but managed to save up enough to go to the academy," tells a person that this person is a second circle mage without them ever saying it. It doesn't bear explanation. If he then continues with, "After graduating I hopped the gate and signed up on the first Gith ship I found," that tells a person that he's a first-circle mage, again without bothering to use the tag. So, these are widely understood terms for types of mages, but they don't come up in normal conversation with nearly the frequency of a person's dryness. Just like a person's professional collar colour in modern society.

I can't help but imagine a street fight starting when a wizard's kid calls a young sorcerer a "wet-ass third-circle dragon-blood." This brings me to another point. Given that sorcerers traditionally trace their bloodline to dragons, do we see any connection between the Draconic Heritage Collective and third-circle mages? Any suggestion that sorcerers "go back" there?

On the topic of the Draconic Heritage Collective, given that kobold clans tend to serve one dragon or one bloodline of dragons for centuries and the fact that most kobolds in the city are descended from the first attendants of the twins, is there a preponderance of names featuring red and gold among the kobolds? Names like Auron Rue, Crimson Gold, or Aux Fyrbyrg? If there are, would you see surnames evoking red, gold, fire, the sun, and blood more frequently among sorcerers than other human social niches?

Amiel

2010-04-17, 11:24 PM

The Anarresti

2010-04-17, 11:45 PM

I like the idea of surnames about different sorcerer heritage, based on dragon descent, but remember that the "blood of dragons" theory is only ONE theory as to how the sorcerers inherited their power. Maybe most of the sorcerer's gangs divvy themselves up based on where they believe their heritage came from. I.E. One who trace back to genie from the plane of water, others who trace to gold dragons, fey, further outsiders. Maybe they even learn common languages: for example, a gang of sorcerers who believe they are descended from Efreeti (and thus tend toward shock-and-awe tactics and fire-based spells) all speak Ignan among themselves.
I would say that the draconic beings of the Dragon Heritage Collective wouldn't be too warm to the idea of hairy, smelly, hot-blooded mammals crowding up the place demanding partnership. Even if a few sorcerers want to "return," they wouldn't be accepted. Besides, only those who trace their powers back to Gold or Red dragons would want to "go back," unless a significant portion of other dragons are represented.
List of important sorcerer gangs to be posted shortly...

The Anarresti

2010-04-17, 11:47 PM

@Amiel: I'd think that the denizens of the Necropolis would be very skeptical of any high-profile necromancer with armies of mindless zombies.

BRC

2010-04-18, 12:03 AM

Vellatrix Bellatrix is incredibly ancient, even by elven standards. Despite her immense age, she maintains the slim, trim trappings of youth. Incessantly creative and inventive, she has replaced her hands with gloves of force that float with no attached wrists.

She is a necromancer; far from conveying and cultivating a fearsome reputation, she hires out her tireless force of undead as a creative tool; they are used to build and rebuild, endlessly maintaining aspects of the city.

She has become exceedingly rich, but still chooses to live in non-opulence; the majority of her money going to charity and guardian sigils and arcana that protect her dwelling as well as an enclosed gauntlet.
So, I take it you're suggesting the a character that might exist in Ishka?

What do you mean by "Maintaining aspects of the City", because that sounds like what the Streetbuilders do.

The Streetbuilders by the way have a rule against using mindless undead or constructs (Though they might sub-contract some for very big jobs), for a variety of reasons.
1) The Streetbuilder's job is in large made possible by the fact that everybody likes them. They're the hard working boys in gray, just doing a job and keeping the city from falling down. If their work is done by mindless undead, it ruins that image.
2) The Streetbuilders are one of the biggest employers in the city. If they started replacing paid workers with mindless undead and constructs, BIG problems would emerge.
3) Mindless undead and constructs can be taken over or sabotaged much easier than normal workers.
4) In many cases, Streetbuilder jobs simply couldn't BE Done by mindless workers. Mindless Workers may know how to dig a mine, or build a wall, because those are simple, repetitive tasks. Replacing a pillar, shoring up a load bearing wall, seeing exactly what's wrong. All these require a mind. Not an especially bright mind in many cases, but a mind nonetheless.

Plus, Mindless Constructs are expensive, and Mindless Undead are infrequently used in the city outside of certain very limited areas. It's very difficult for mindless undead to navigate around the city. People don't like them, and penalties tend to be light for destroying them. Goats or dogs might eat them as they walk along, ect.

jagadaishio

2010-04-18, 12:38 AM

BRC

2010-04-18, 12:46 AM

Mindless undead make great farming implements, though. A single experienced farmer could use a horde to work a dozen times more efficiently, though the need for the farmer is still there. That said, we've already addressed the issue of mindless labor in Galdren in previous pages.
Yeah, but for most Ishkans Galdren is out of sight out of mind. They probably know much of their food is grown by hordes of mindless undead tilling fields, but they don't really think about that. Seeing a horde of undead walking past you're doors on their way to do a job that could be done by your neighbors is a different matter altogether.

Also, something I've been thinking about, concerning the Saints and their place in the city. Specifically Saint Baltin, best known for leading the Crusade against the necropolis during the Plague, believing the undead to be responsible for it.

Now, historically, Baltin's a tricky subject. His work in keeping the city secure for the most part and protecting Merkeil's healers as they ventured into infected districts is frequently talked about. The Crusade however, is not. In modern Ishka, the Crusade is something of an awkward subject. There is significant anti-undead sentiment in the city, but rarely is it to the point of wanting to have the necropolis stormed and having all it's inhabitants killed, which was pretty much the Crusade's stated goal. It dosn't help that Merkeil, who was around at the same time, and is pretty much considered a great guy by everybody, didn't exactly speak out against Baltin's efforts.
Baltin's position within the Ishkan pantheon is a "Saint of Justice", contrasted with the Ravens, who are more a Saint of Law. There is a crucial difference.

Baltin's Justice is a violent, karmatic, hands-on justice, as opposed to the cold calculation of the Raven's laws. You send a prayer to Baltin when you wish ill on somebody who wronged you, or when you are going to fight (Not necessarily violently) for some just cause. Contrast with his rival Kenrik, the saint of Protection.

Baltin's worship tends to be popular with street level police officers, people who make alot of gut judgments and expect to get their hands dirty. Baltin's place as a warrior-saint works well with their profession.

By contrast, Investigators tend to worship the Raven when they feel religious. The Raven fits better with the cold, methodical nature of their jobs. They also, too frequently in their jobs, come across the difference between "Wrong" and "Illegal".
Baltin is all about Justice being enacted, which is good if you see a mugging in progress, but bad when you're looking for a murderer. Baltin's worshipers tend to be a little too eager to declare people guilty. They want to see Justice done, which means that once they convince themselves of a suspect's guilt, they tend to focus on finding that person guilty rather than analyzing all the facts. Raven worshipers on the other hand tend to be much more focused on analyzing ALL the facts of the situation, which takes longer, but is more certain, hence, better for investigators, worse for watchmen on the street.

There is one theory, known as the Final Trial, that is common amongst Ishkan Theologians. This theory holds that, when a person's soul passes on for good (coming back as undead dosn't count), three saints appear to decide where the Soul ends up. Baltin acts as a Prosecutor in this trial, arguing in favor of punishing the soul for their wrongdoings. Kenrik acts as the Defense, arguing in favor of clemecy for the Soul, of sending them to a good afterlife. The Raven sits as Judge and Jury. Impartially hearing the arguments and sending the soul on.

Owrtho

2010-04-18, 01:10 AM

I'd also note that as a distinction between Law and Justice, the Raven is often seen as more the letter of the law, while Baltin would be the spirit of the law. Thus a loop hole that the Raven wouldn't care about as it technically breaks no laws would be an issue with Baltin if it goes against what the laws stand for (though this is much less common than the reverse issue occurring).

As for the Final Trial theory, while it has a fair amount of support, those that don't believe in it often try using the Raven being the judge as the weak link in it. Saying such things as no person could uphold all the laws and rules well enough to make it through judgment by the Ravens. Supporters argue against this by stating that as the Raven represents law, it only applies the rules that were applied to the person at the time of any given action (as is the rule wasn't around at the time or didn't exist in that area you weren't breaking it). They also point out that it likely is incremental, and there is a certain threshold that one must stay within (similar to Egyptian mythology in which you soul was weighed against a feather). It is also thought by some that some unknown set of rules and laws is used in this trial.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-04-18, 01:17 AM

With the Final Trial theory, it's generally accepted that the Raven is not judging you necessarily based on the laws of the city or your district, but on some law like "Good people get rewards in the afterlife. Bad people get punishment", or some other set of Laws. The point is that Baltin and Kenrik argue over your soul's fate, the Raven exists as an impartial judge.

Edit: A proverb describing the different Attitudes of the three saints associated with police, Kenrik (Protection), Baltin (Justice), The Stone Raven (Law).

The Three Saints are walking down the street when they see a man being mugged. The mugger runs away when he sees the Saints coming.
Kenrik goes to the victim and makes sure he's okay, attempting to minimize the damage of the mugger's assault.
Baltin pursues the mugger in order to make sure he's punished for his crimes.
The Raven asks witnesses what happened, to ascertain exactly what laws were broken and how.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-18, 08:59 AM

Listen children, to the wisdom of the Saints.

The three saints of protection, law and justice each saw a mugger accosting a man whilst they were alive. Victoria, I believe you were mugged yesterday by a man after your rat-on-a-stick. In each case the mugger took the man's money and ran.

The first saint, the Raven, showed no emotion. As the saint of law and impassionate justice, he used his divine power to capture both the victim and the villain within a prison of force. Using his powers he found the truth, imprisoned the mugger deep within the ground, and returned the man's money to him.

The second saint, Baltin, was outraged. He cared not for the victim, and ran after the mugger. His divine power swept him along at great speed, his sword glowed with holy light as he cleaved through the skull of the offender. The money was destroyed in the process, but Baltin ripped his own purse open to compensate.

The third saint, Kenrik, was concerned. He ignored the mugger, and used his holy powers to heal and tend to the victim. He took him under his wing for a night and a day, and as the man left the saint's house, he found money of the exact amount he lost lying outside, on the pavement

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-18, 09:38 AM

Prerequisites:
Spells: Detect Magic
Skills: Spellcraft 8, Sense Motive 4

HD: d4
Skills: Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Decipher Script, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge The Planes, Spellcraft, Disable Device, Gather Information
Skill points per level: 2 + int modifier

The Occult Investigator
{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spells per Day

1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Improved Detection, Occult Investigation | -

2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Spell Trace | +1 of existing class

3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Caster Tracking | +1 of existing class

4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Rewind Spells | +1 of existing class

5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Perceive the Guilty | +1 of existing class [/table]

Occult Investigation: The O.I gains Detect Magic as an at-will spell-like ability, taking a standard action to cast. In addition, he can spontaneously cast the following spells by sacrificing an appropriate spell slotl:

Read Magic costs no spell slots to cast.

Detect Undead costs a 0-level spell slot.

Locate Object and See Invisibility cost a first level spell slot.

Arcane Sight costs a second level spell slot.

Detect Scrying,Scrying and Arcane Eye cost third-level spell slots.

Analyze Dweomer and True Seeing cost fifth level spell slots.

Greater Arcane Sight and Greater Scrying cost sixth level spell slots.

Discern Location costs a seventh level spell slot.

Improved Detection: When the OI gains a level, he may have one of the following alterations permanently affecting his Detect Magic spell. If the alteration involves the use of a spell level, he can still cast Detect Magic at will without the alteration. The OI can choose from:
Increase range by 10ft.
Skipping one round of concentration per casting, but behaving as if he had concentrated for that round.
Spellcraft check to determine class of caster, DC=15+half caster level.
Spellcraft check to determine spell, as if seeing it being cast. This makes Detect Magic cost a first level spell slot.
Two cones of half the normal length in two directions at once.

Spell Trace: If you identify the location and aura of a spell using Detect Magic, and later use Detect Magic on the creature that cast it, you can make a Spellcraft check (DC 15+half caster level) to recognise that creature of the caster of that spell. If the aura of the spell has already faded, you can not use this ability.

Caster Tracking: If you have Detect Magic active you can make Spellcraft checks instead of survival checks when tracking a creature who has cast a spell who's aura has not yet faded.

Rewind Spells: When touching a target, once per day per OI level you can see a number of spells that the subject has cast within the last (OI level) weeks equal to your intelligence modifier x your OI level. You see the most recent spells first.

Perceive the Guilty: If you have detected a spell they cast using Detect Magic, you have firsthand knowledge and a possession of a creature for the purposes of scrying spells and similar effects.

Silverscale

2010-04-18, 02:32 PM

Prerequisites:
Spells: Detect Magic
Skills: Spellcraft 8
Special: Must be a member of the Municipal Investigators

HD: d4
Skills: as wizard
Skill points per level: as wizard

The Occult Investigator
{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spells per Day

1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Improved Detection | +1 of existing class

2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Spell Trace | +1 of existing class

3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Caster Tracking | +1 of existing class

4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Rewind Spells | +1 of existing class

5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Perceive the Guilty | +1 of existing class [/table]

Improved Detection: When the OI gains a level, he may have one of the following alterations permanently affecting his Detect Magic spell. If the alteration involves an increase of level, he can still cast Detect Magic as a cantrip without the alteration. The OI can choose from:
Increase range by 10ft.
Skipping one round of concentration per casting, but behaving as if he had concentrated for that round.
Spellcraft check to determine class of caster, DC=15+half caster level.
Spellcraft check to determine spell, as if seeing it being cast. This makes Detect Magic a first level spell.
Two cones of half the normal length in two directions at once.
Cause yourself to be permanently affected by a Detect Magic spell without any of the benefits bestowed by being an OI. This permanently takes up a 3rd-level spell slot. To gain the benefits you have by virtue of being an OI you have to cast the spell as normal.

Spell Trace: If you identify the location and aura of a spell using Detect Magic, and later use Detect Magic on the creature that cast it, you can make a Spellcraft check (DC 15+half caster level) to recognise that creature of the caster of that spell. If the aura of the spell has already faded, you can not use this ability.

Caster Tracking: If you have Detect Magic active you can make Spellcraft checks instead of survival checks when tracking a creature who has cast a spell who's aura has not yet faded.

Rewind Spells: When touching a target, once per day per OI level you can see a number of spells that the subject has cast within the last (OI level) weeks equal to your intelligence modifier x your OI level. You see the most recent spells first.

Perceive the Guilty: If you have detected a spell they cast using Detect Magic, you have firsthand knowledge and a possession of a creature for the purposes of scrying spells and similar effects.

With all the things that use Detect Magic they would all have to be running around with wands of Detect Magic unless you give them Detect Magic as an At-Will. Also you haven't listed what skills they get as class skills which should definately include Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Decipher Script, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge The Planes, of course Spell Craft, maybe also Forgery, and Disable Device, and Gather Information I guess would be a good one too.

Also I know they are "Magic Investigators" but is Detect Magic their only shtick?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-18, 02:56 PM

Detect Magic is not their only 'schtik', they retain full spell-casting, remember? Skills edited to include suggestions, but I think that with all that spell-casting, too many skill points is overpowered.

BRC

2010-04-18, 03:14 PM

With all the things that use Detect Magic they would all have to be running around with wands of Detect Magic unless you give them Detect Magic as an At-Will. Also you haven't listed what skills they get as class skills which should definately include Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Decipher Script, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge The Planes, of course Spell Craft, maybe also Forgery, and Disable Device, and Gather Information I guess would be a good one too.

Also I know they are "Magic Investigators" but is Detect Magic their only shtick?
I actually love the way TLS has built the class. I'd drop the "Must be part of MI" requirement. The vast majority of Occult Investigators are MI, but there are some freelancers out there.

Detect magic is their Shtichk, because it's their job to investigate magically-related crimes. They're not just "Investigators who use Magic", they are people who Investigate Magic. They tell you that this explosion was a Fireball spell, that it was cast by an 8th level wizard, and (If you look at the way the edge becomes much sharper over on this side, see the caster's subconcious magicbabble magibabble) you can tell he very much didn't want to hit something that was here.

Silverscale

2010-04-18, 05:30 PM

I would still give them Detect Magic as an At-Will

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-19, 01:06 AM

O.K, if you know best about what abilities they should have, when should they get at-will detect magic, and what should it replace? Perhaps at first level, replacing their first spell progression? You tell me.

Also, while we're E.A.C.Hing, can anybody come up with more Detect Magic modifiers for the first-level ability? I've got some, but not enough to give a real choice.

Silverscale

2010-04-19, 07:56 AM

O.K, if you know best about what abilities they should have, when should they get at-will detect magic, and what should it replace? Perhaps at first level, replacing their first spell progression? You tell me.I never claimed to know best about anything. It just seems to me that a PRC that uses Detect Magic as much as The Occult Investigator does should have it as an At-Will and your suggestion of replacing the first level of spell-progression with it is a good one, that still gives them 4 out of 5 levels of spell progression as they take this PRC.

erictheredd

2010-04-19, 09:24 AM

A couple of thoughts about detect magic and the OI:

1) one 1st level ability allows a permenant detect magic effect for the price of a third level spell (presumedly cast in the morning)--basically an at will effect.

2) these are 3e numbers (sorry, that's all I have) but to make an item that has a permenant detect magic effect (admittedly with a caster level of one) costs 1,000 gp (2,000*spell level*caster level), which is not prohibitive for someone with that many levels)

3) what else will the 0-level slots be used for?

That being said, I think the first level "bonus ability" should be availible more than once. additional abilities could include a +2 to spellcraft checks made for detect magic, a spellcraft check to determine if the spell was cast by a caster or a magic item, or an ability that determines power level more clearly.

Silverscale

2010-04-19, 10:11 AM

1) one 1st level ability allows a permenant detect magic effect for the price of a third level spell (presumedly cast in the morning)--basically an at will effect.Yes but you still have to cast Detect Magis to use any of the OI abilities

2) these are 3e numbers (sorry, that's all I have) but to make an item that has a permenant detect magic effect (admittedly with a caster level of one) costs 1,000 gp (2,000*spell level*caster level), which is not prohibitive for someone with that many levels)Ok, so M.I. hands out an "Amulet of the Occult" to all their OI and Freelancers can buy one for themselves fairly easily

3) what else will the 0-level slots be used for?Uhhh.... there are lots of useful ways to use cantrips and you only get 4-6 of them a day depending on you caster class.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-19, 11:45 AM

I'm sorry about:

O.K, if you know best about what abilities they should have, when should they get at-will detect magic, and what should it replace? Perhaps at first level, replacing their first spell progression? You tell me.

I was feeling unreasonably irritable. Still, whilst on the subject, let's have a vote. At-Will Detect Magic at first level in return for spellcasting, or not?

BRC

2010-04-19, 11:51 AM

Maybe let them prepare Detect Magic Twice for every spell slot they use, though that only works for Wizards.

BRC

2010-04-19, 11:06 PM

Ishka? On the second page?
NEVAR, give me 5 cc's of Graveyard Shift STAT!

The second thug was smarter than the first, he had drawn his weapon and hung back to size up the situation while his buddy rushed straight in with a stab to the gut.
Gordon didn’t bother to block, he wasn’t using those organs anymore anyway. The thug’s face turned from a triumphant grin to confusion as he realized Gordon wasn’t reacting the way a human would to a knife in his chest. A quick blow to the inside of the Thug’s elbow caused him to drop the knife. A knee to the groin caused him to drop altogether. Behind him he heard a pinging noise as Oliver hypnotized the two thugs behind them. The final thug made to run when a calm voice spoke from the next room.
“That will be enough boys”.
“But Boss, they’re Munnies!”
“I know, and if they were there to arrest me there would be more of ‘em and they would have done a louder job of declaring themselves before kicking your asses. They KNOW I’ve got Darhum and Coop on retainer, if they wanted to get me, they wouldn’t do ANYTHING that could be considered an irregularity. Who is it anyway?”
Gordon gave the thug on the ground another kick.
“It’s Me Frankie”.
The voice boomed out in laughter.
“GORDON TORDLEY! Come in, bring your friend.”
The two detectives entered the pubs back room, and the presence of Frank Lakree. Gordon took a moment to remind himself what Frankie looked like. Half Orc, Half Devil, Slightly overweight, with reddish skin and small horns; he was smoking a foul smelling cigar and wearing a cheap suit. A pair of goons that looks significantly more dangerous than those in the front room stood unobtrusively behind him. He was sitting at a desk cluttered with papers which he, almost absentmindedly moved out of sight.
Any MI in the city would have loved to get their hands on those papers. Those papers tracked the earnings and movements of some of the countless small time crooks who formed the backbone of the Cutthroat Alliance. Black Marketeers, smugglers, muggers, pickpockets, safehouse operators. Countless people who break the law to put food on the table .Somehow, they all reported back to Frankie Lakree. Frankie may not look like much, but under that battered bowler hat resided one of the sharpest criminal minds in the city. Everybody knew Frankie was up to his waist in the Alliance, but you’d be hard pressed to prove it. MI had tried plenty of times, but Frankie always walked. A tangled web of finances and connections combined with crafty legal counsel saw to that. Nowadays, MI simply didn’t bother.
“Well Well Well, Gordon Tordley. How long has it been since you tried to send me to the Vault?”
“Three Years.” Gordon bit his tongue at the memory. MI’s had gone in through a neighboring house to cut off Frankie’s escape route, somehow his Attorney had used that to invalidate the arrest. Also, half of MI’s witnesses developed sudden amnesia.
“Has it been that long. Seems like almost yesterday”.
“Cut it out Frankie. You’re a criminal scumbag, and to be perfectly honest, I don’t want to be in the same room as you any longer than I have to.”
Frankie’s tone became deadly serious. An ash dropped from the cigar.
“Fine. But how about you drop the Scary MI routine, if you could do anything to me, you would have already. The fact that you’re here without a warrant in your hands and loads of backup means you need a favor, and you’re desperate enough to ask a, how did you put it, “Criminal Scumbag” for help. The jovial tone returned “So tell me boys, what can ‘ol Frankie do for ya?”
Gordon sighed, defeated, and slumped down in one of the chairs. Oliver apparently did not want to suffer the indignities of trying to sit in a chair built for somebody twice his size and remained standing.
“A couple days ago a box full of important documents” Gordon had no desire to tell Frankie exactly what documents, “were stolen from the secure vault of the Gilded Bank. The Safecracker was killed, and we believe the documents are in the hands of somebody going by Bloody Jack.”
“Yes, and?”
“We need those documents back, and we need Bloody Jack, and we need both of them as soon as possible.”
The room stayed silent for almost a minute after that. Frankie finished his cigar and ate the stub.
“Why?”
“I don’t need to tell you why we need those documents.”
“No, not that. Why do you think I will help you. It sounds like one of my pals outsmarted you, so now you’re asking me to sell out a fellow legitimate businessman. It sounds like I have absolutely no reason to help you find you’re lost papers.”
Gordon held his breath and got ready to lie. “If these document’s aren’t found soon, we will be forced to declare a full scale manhunt, you know what that means. MI’s everywhere, asking annoying questions, making annoying arrests, disrupting business.”
Frankie Laughed.
“Really, you don’t have anything do you. Oh, I don’t doubt that you could make my life difficult in a thousand ways. But a dragnet like that requires lots of planning and coordination. It will take too long to get together, and you want this box back now. So, if empty threats are all you have-“
“We have your brother”. Oliver responded in the steady voice of one who very much regrets what they are doing, but would regret showing it even more.
This made Frankie look up.
“What?”
“Vincent Lakree, he was working as muscle for some thieves working in Magetown, mainly targeting magic items. I was called in to consult on the case. You help us get Jack and the Box, and I suddenly find that he was under magical compulsion the entire time, which keeps him out of the Vault”.
Gordon was Stunned. Oliver was suggesting tampering with evidence. Intentionally giving a false result in an investigation. Okay, so it was worth it to let an idiot thug like Vince Lakree out in order to secure those documents, and it wasn’t like they were entirely within the law trying to make a deal with Frankie in the first place, but still, they swore Oaths against this sort of thing. The Gnome was keeping a straight face, but Oliver could tell that he was hating this with every fiber of his being.
Frankie took a second to compose himself, and took a long draw on his cigar. “Alright Little Man. Let’s say you can get my dear long-lost brother off the hook, let me take him back into the fold. If you can do that, I might be able to get my hands on Jack and his little acquisition. But I want Vince cleared before the week is out. Do we have a deal?”
“We. Do.”
“Good, now get out of my place. I’ve got work to do, and you’re scaring my friends away”.
Without a word (unless you could mumbled profanity) the two detectives left the room. On the way out Gordon pulled the knife out of his chest and handed it back to the, still somewhat stunned, thug.
“You dropped this.”

Owrtho

2010-04-20, 12:51 AM

Good work as usual. I was beginning to go into withdrawal there. Keep up the good work.

Owrtho

Silverscale

2010-04-20, 09:15 AM

Ishka? On the second page?What are you refering to??????

Graveyard ShiftAwesome as ever.

Renrik

2010-04-20, 09:42 AM

He's referring to the fact that this thread got on the second page of the Homebrew subforum.

Silverscale

2010-04-20, 01:19 PM

To draw a resonably accurate map of Ishka on graph paper where each 1/4" Square is equal to 1 square mile, you would need 36 sheets of graph paper layed out in 3 columns of 12 sheets with the pages layed out lenght-wise in the columns or 12x11" by 3x8.5" That's a big map that would probably take up all the free space inmy room to draw.

Therefore I have resolved to draw a map of Ishka where each square of the graph paper is equal to 4 square miles or the lenght of one side of one square is 2 miles.....this lets me reduse the number of sheets to just 12 in 2 columns of 6 again length-wise or 6x11" by 2x8.5".

It's gonnna take me a while to get this map done but when I do I will do my best to get a photo of it up on the forum. It will naturally be a top down view of the city and will therefore only include the top layer and the edges of layers as they meet up with the ocean in The Port District.

If anyone has strong ideas of where certain things are PM them to me, otherwise I have an idea of where some things are and others will probably fall into place as I draw everything out.

The Anarresti

2010-04-20, 07:12 PM

Graveyard Shift: The best one yet. Gordon is B.A. "You dropped this." Best. line. Ever.
And I absolutely adore Frankie. I can see him so clearly: a stout little creature, orc and devil traits meshing to make a whole creature, smoking a smelly stogy and grinning with a mouth full of fangs.

jagadaishio

2010-04-20, 11:58 PM

I'm loving it too. I could feel the bored spite dripping from Gordon's voice.

There is one thing I want to note about the map of the city. Some borders will have to be vague because there are areas with vertically diagonal borders. There are places where it's one district on one level, but to still be in the same district in the next level up, you need to be twenty feet westward. This is especially true in the steamworks, which are almost always as close to the bottom of the canyon as possible, to have access to the river for cheap barges, water, and dumping ground for scap. There are some steamworks (ones on the smaller side) that don't have any presence on the top layer of where they are.

Which landmarks are you going to mark, aside from the borders of the districts? Mithral Tower, the various Great Works, probably. Anywhere else with a write-up in the POIs. Are you going to mark the locations of all of the Stations?

Would maps in Ishka be packets? Maybe holographic affairs? Not all layers are the same height or an even height, so even if they had a good method for layered mapping, that would mess it up too. Would they have just largely given up on maps as a lost cause and started memorizing locations the way that people without written languages memorize verbalized documents?

I would love to see a party march into a crime lord's base, steal his papers, fight their way out, hand the papers and the lord over to MI, and be arrested for burglarizing, assaulting, and kidnapping a powerful member of the community. MI would probably treat them like trash, too, since they would have ruined months of work spying on and gathering evidence on the scumbag, who would now have a layer of armor against juries for at least a year. They might even end up on a convict labor squad, sent by the Streetbuilders into the most dangerous areas of the city for emergency repair - the squads they expect the things they're repairing to collapse on them.

As for the OI, I would just give them at will detect magic. It's not an overpowered ability, and it's thematically appropriate. It would also still cost them the action required to cast it, after all, it's at will, not always on. I don't think anything needs to be removed to add that in. As I see it, it's a deal-maker, making it the icing that would make it a wonderful little prestige class, not a deal-breaker that would leave it broken or overpowered.

As for those first level modifiers, how about instead of requiring the spell to be a higher level, you just need to spend a spell of that level to activate that effect on your (at will) detect magic? That would keep the balance that the spell levels were intended, I assume, to provide. If you do that, you could have other divination effects as modifiers. The trick would be making them cost a spell of a slot one level lower than the level of spell they are. After all, detect magic already has to be active to use the effect. If you needed detect magic active AND had to sacrifice a slot of the same level (or even higher, saints forbid), you would be better off just casting such a spell.

Maybe Read Magic which is active as part of your Detect Magic at no cost.

Detect Undead or Identify for the cost of a 0-level spell. Identify could cost a first level spell if it didn't have a material cost when used in this way.

Locate Object or See Invisibility for the cost of a first level spell.

Arcane Sight for the cost of a second.

Detect Scrying could work for the cost of a third level spell, but Scrying and Arcane Eye would be great (and I think thematically appropriate) for that cost too.

Analyze Dweomer and True Seeing are both sixth level, and could cost a fifth level spell. Analyze Dweomer might cost a sixth if you forfeit the need for the focus. Legend Lore might be good too, but that's iffy.

Arcane Sight, Greater should cost a sixth level spell, and if you put the Scrying of earlier on the list, so too should there be Scrying, Greater for the cost of a sixth as well.

Discern Location is the only spell I could really see costing a seventh level spell.

And those are the features I think that an OI should have access to, and what it would cost him to activate them while Detect Magic is up and running. They would have to be cost as normal without having Detect Magic on, though. It would just grease the wheels.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-21, 01:06 AM

Actually, to be honest, I think that with all those new features the O.I would have to lose the first-level spellcasting. They're basically getting spontaneous spellcasting, if they're a wizard/cleric, and learning a whole additional kaboodle of spells if they're a sorcerer (I can't see druids or bards liking this PrC, too many class features to be missed). Other PrCs have lost it for less. Otherwise, I think that's a good idea, and I'll be copying it in right away.

Erutaron

2010-04-21, 01:45 AM

I thought I might as well post here first...

Would anyone be interested in an Ishka PbP game?

I'll post details and start a recruiting thread, but I wanted you all to have a guaranteed spot if you're interested.

Wulfang

2010-04-21, 05:21 AM

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 06:33 AM

There is one thing I want to note about the map of the city. Some borders will have to be vague because there are areas with vertically diagonal borders. There are places where it's one district on one level, but to still be in the same district in the next level up, you need to be twenty feet westward. This is especially true in the steamworks, which are almost always as close to the bottom of the canyon as possible, to have access to the river for cheap barges, water, and dumping ground for scap. There are some steamworks (ones on the smaller side) that don't have any presence on the top layer of where they are.

Which landmarks are you going to mark, aside from the borders of the districts? Mithral Tower, the various Great Works, probably. Anywhere else with a write-up in the POIs. Are you going to mark the locations of all of the Stations?As I said it will really only be a map of the top layer, although I think I will make dotted outlines of at least a few caves to indicate places like Hedon an The Drow Citadel. I don't think on a map of this scale, it would be a good idea to try and mare all of the stations, even just the ones on the top layer, so I'll just note where the major ones are. I'm going to flip back through the thread to find as many POI's as I can to mark down including but not limited to The Boulevard, The Millenium Tree, The Great Lantern, Mithral Tower, etc.

Would maps in Ishka be packets? Maybe holographic affairs? Not all layers are the same height or an even height, so even if they had a good method for layered mapping, that would mess it up too. Would they have just largely given up on maps as a lost cause and started memorizing locations the way that people without written languages memorize verbalized documents?For the most part people just memorize where they live/work/frequently shop, however I think there would be a good market for a device that creates a miniature 3D-Holographic map centered on you that you can zoom in and out of to get more or less detail of your surroundings. This would allow people to travel into unfamiliar territory and still be able to find their way around.

As for a map of the whole city. There are a few copies of The Great Map, one is housed in the center of The Council Room in Primordium, one is at The University, another is in the Central Hall of Customs and Immigration, possibly a couple others, I can't think at the moment where though. These keep an accurate holographic map of Ishka at all times (ie. if something is collapsing you can watch it collapse using The Great Map) When not being manipulated to show a specific part of the city, The Great Map shows a scaled down model of the entire city. The Great Map does not display creatures as that would be both exceedingly difficult and an invasion of privacy. It does display things such as clouds, smoke, and fire. Sorry this isn't a very good write up but I have to get ready for work. Hopefully you get the general idea.

erictheredd

2010-04-21, 09:07 AM

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 09:49 AM

just a thought on the map: I made a similar map, and realized : canyons have branches and forks! there would still be main canyon, but the side forks with definitely get filled. One thought I had was putting large, areas dominated by one race up a canyon. for example, the goblin town, the Dark Army, and the Dragon collective. perhaps the necropolis, though I personally put it at a crazy intersection that split the commons in two (along with a bunch of other stuff).My plan is to lay out a measured piece of string for the main canyon and your idea of smaller branched is a good one so I'll add in a few of those too. I've already got the 12 sheets of graph paper tapped together, I'll start working on it when I get home tonight.

a note with maps: it doesn't matter that much because transportation is done by station, and two areas 20 miles away may be much harder to get to than many areas 200 miles away because of station routes.Of course maps matter. Would you try and get around Manhatten without a map? No yet Subways are just as prevelant there as Stations are in Ishka. Besides, thought they are the main method of travel throughout the city, they are by no means the only method......The Boulevard, Inter-city Gates, etc....

Actually that brings up another question....We have at least one Skyport in Mithral Heights for International/Interplanar Travel, are there any smaller airships that travel throughout the city? I can definatly see a case for Mid-sized transport ships carrying goods to and from The Market District.

BRC

2010-04-21, 10:09 AM

As I said it will really only be a map of the top layer, although I think I will make dotted outlines of at least a few caves to indicate places like Hedon an The Drow Citadel. I don't think on a map of this scale, it would be a good idea to try and mare all of the stations, even just the ones on the top layer, so I'll just note where the major ones are. I'm going to flip back through the thread to find as many POI's as I can to mark down including but not limited to The Boulevard, The Millenium Tree, The Great Lantern, Mithral Tower, etc.

For the most part people just memorize where they live/work/frequently shop, however I think there would be a good market for a device that creates a miniature 3D-Holographic map centered on you that you can zoom in and out of to get more or less detail of your surroundings. This would allow people to travel into unfamiliar territory and still be able to find their way around.

As for a map of the whole city. There are a few copies of The Great Map, one is housed in the center of The Council Room in Primordium, one is at The University, another is in the Central Hall of Customs and Immigration, possibly a couple others, I can't think at the moment where though. These keep an accurate holographic map of Ishka at all times (ie. if something is collapsing you can watch it collapse using The Great Map) When not being manipulated to show a specific part of the city, The Great Map shows a scaled down model of the entire city. The Great Map does not display creatures as that would be both exceedingly difficult and an invasion of privacy. It does display things such as clouds, smoke, and fire. Sorry this isn't a very good write up but I have to get ready for work. Hopefully you get the general idea.
Streetbuilders would need copies of the Great Map.

Really, I imagine most maps are only for a limited area, or are rather generalized. Hence the social customs behind asking for directions. Most Ishkans probably don't even own a city map, instead they know, generally, where things are. They start at a Station or Landmark, and ask for directions in order to get where they're going.

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 12:14 PM

Streetbuilders would need copies of the Great Map.Yeah there is a copy of The Great Map at the Streetbuilders Headquarters also at MI Headquarters, really any organization big enough, that would have a need for a map of the whole city has one at their Headquarters. However the device that generates the whole-city map is too big and too expensive to make it portable which is where the smaller maps come in.

Really, I imagine most maps are only for a limited area, or are rather generalized. Hence the social customs behind asking for directions. Most Ishkans probably don't even own a city map, instead they know, generally, where things are. They start at a Station or Landmark, and ask for directions in order to get where they're going.Exactly.....how many New Yorkers do you think own a map of New York City? Not very many unless they just use it for reference or have a tendancy to go into areas they are not as familiar with. However, every tourist that goes to NYC probably buys at least one map before they try to navigate their way around and in NYC you see the same custom of asking for directions when you get lost.....granted people might not be as nice when you ask directions but that doesn't stop people from asking.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 01:15 PM

Streetbuilders would need copies of the Great Map.

Really, I imagine most maps are only for a limited area, or are rather generalized. Hence the social customs behind asking for directions. Most Ishkans probably don't even own a city map, instead they know, generally, where things are. They start at a Station or Landmark, and ask for directions in order to get where they're going.
this is spot on part of this would be that paper maps would be near impossible, but i still think the holomaps would be a good idea they would be fairly cheap to an adventurer but to the average Ishkan one would be a massive luxury.
i am thinking something like.

lesser holomap
this small metal cube has a crystal disk on the top and runic circles on each of the fore sides. when the command word is spoken the device projects a, 1.5 foot cubic, 3 dimensional, translucence map of the portion of the great city of Ishka located on the material plain. This image covers all of Ishka stretching from the heights of the mithral tower, to the depths of (insert name of drow city here), all the way out to the farthest reaches of the Galdren, and from the lake to the sea. This image is centered on the cube if the cube is in the city or the main gate for customs and immigration if it is not on the material plain or within the boundary's of the city.
The device is controlled by spinning a digit along the ruin circles on the sides of the item. One circle zooms the image in or out, the next moves the image up or down river, another moves the map up or down vertically and the last moves the image orthogonally relative to the river each map contains an exact copy of the material plain portion of the great map at the moment it was created or the holomap it was copied from(see below). The user of a holomap may cast arcane mark on the holomap to place up to the equivalent of 1 page of text of notes on the map these notes can be deactivated by a second command word by the user.
all of the commands and instructions are traditionally inscribed on the base of the cube in Ishkan.
weight 1lb
Requirements(Cl 5 find the path, special must have access to a lesser
holomap holomap,or one of The Great Maps price 200gp cost 100gp ?25xp? )

also take a look at these pleas

least holomap
a least holomap contans a vivid static image of a section of Ishka,in the same format as any other holomap, a least holomap and looks like a large iron coin with a crystal on one side, the command words and a description of the location are traditionaly inscribed on the back.
weight 0.25lb
Requirements(CL 1 arcane mark, special must have access to a minor holomap, leser holomap, holomap,or one of The Great Maps price 10gp cost 5gp ?1xp? )

minor holomap
a minor holomap functions like a least holomap except as noted below
a minor holomap has a third command word, capture, when the minor holomap is placed next to another active holomap and the capture command spoken the minor holomap changes its stored image to match the other holomap.
Requirements(CL 2 arcane mark, special must have acses to a minor holomap, leser holomap, holomap,or one of The Great Maps price 50gp cost 25gp ?5xp? )

holomap
a holomap functions like a lesser holomap except where noted below.
A holomap also covers all of the permanent portals and station routs in Ishka as well as the extensions of the city that are located on other plains. Other plains are selected by a command word located on the base of the device followed by the plains name.
weight 1lb
Requirements(Cl 10 find the path plain shift,, special must have acses to a holomap,or one of The Great Maps price 500gp cost 250gp ?55xp? )

what i am thinking is is that the maps are not so much not bought for lack of utility as they are for shear cost. On the least holoMap it would be good to "screen capture" any of the other holomaps, or as souvenirs for tourists, like a map of mithral tower or the lake district or even the great tree whatever its called, think snow globe. also if you knew about and captured a major collapse ether on another map and transferred it or just took it straight of the great map, might sell well in some circles.

BRC

2010-04-21, 02:08 PM

Yeah there is a copy of The Great Map at the Streetbuilders Headquarters also at MI Headquarters, really any organization big enough, that would have a need for a map of the whole city has one at their Headquarters. However the device that generates the whole-city map is too big and too expensive to make it portable which is where the smaller maps come in.

Exactly.....how many New Yorkers do you think own a map of New York City? Not very many unless they just use it for reference or have a tendancy to go into areas they are not as familiar with. However, every tourist that goes to NYC probably buys at least one map before they try to navigate their way around and in NYC you see the same custom of asking for directions when you get lost.....granted people might not be as nice when you ask directions but that doesn't stop people from asking.
All the big Municipal Organizations would have one. Some of them are modified.

The Streetbuilders actually have several. One at their main office in Primordium, and one at each of their major regional offices. Their Maps are modified to show the structural makeup of the city, with it's supports highlighted and colored by strength. For some bigger supports, the map can also show when it was last repaired.
Firefighter's have ones that are hooked up to the Great Fountain to detect large fires.

The Gatekeepers have ones that can be modified by operators to show the location of Gates, as well as the position and strength of gate raiders.

Actually, Idea!

Location(s) of Interest
Municipal Compounds
Scattered around the City are a series of blocky structures known as Municipal Compounds. Each one of these Compounds has a Gate linking back to the Primordium.
These Compounds are uniform, each contains the same structures.

A small barracks of Gatekeepers.
A Small MI local office.
An Entrance to the Warehouse (as described forever ago in this thread).
A Streetbuilder's office, containing information showing where local supports are located, the type of support, an estimate of how much weight it is supporting, and the last time it was inspected, repaired, or replaced.
A Streetbuilder stockroom, containing some supplies and tools.
A Firefighter's Substation, containing a couple suits of armor.
An all purpose barracks and canteen.

Few operations are actually run out of these local offices. They are used primarily as staging areas to quickly deploy personnel and coordinate everything from routine Streetbuilder investigations to Gatekeeper defenses.

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 02:08 PM

BRC

2010-04-21, 02:09 PM

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 02:15 PM

The Streetbuilder, Gatekeeper, and Firefighter maps are static images, but they can be modified by a trained operator to show relevant information (Such as the reported location of gate raiders). And even then, the map itself dosn't change, they merely add some extra stuff.

Are you talking about the Great Maps they have in their headquarters or the ones they carry around with them on mossions? I don't see any reason that they would not want a continuously updating Great Map in their Headquarters, especially the Fierfighters since it would be a way to keep an eye out for fires that need putting out.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 02:30 PM

Just to veryify, all but The Great Map should be static images, yes you can zoom, pan, rotate, them but they do not continuously update themselves the way The Great Maps do. They are only as accurate as they were at the time of their creation, the same way an old paper map may give you a fairly good idea of where things are but certain boundries/roads/etc may have changed.

I'm pretty sure that's how you said they should work but your description of the Least Holomap confused me a little bit.

exactly what i was saying. Only the Great Maps should update in real time all the others are static there may even be very old historic ones in the streetbuilders hq and the museum for reference.

a Least Holomap only stores a static image in the same form as all the other holomaps no zoom or pan and can only be rotated by the rotating the device
and they are coin shaped just because I thought that would look cool and they don't need control surfaces.

as fore The Great Maps they should all be dynamic because otherwise they are just like a normal holomap only immobile.
also what do you think of adding silent image as a requirement?
or any more apropriate spells /spell combos?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-21, 02:35 PM

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 02:39 PM

BRC

2010-04-21, 02:42 PM

I just had a thought what if there was one master Great Map that all the oter great maps link to in real time and The Great Map not only tracks structures and permanent portals as stabilized by the portal item mentioned ages ago but tracks every creature and temporary portal in Ishka? obviously this is one of the great works and cant possibly feed all of its info even to the lesser great maps. or is all this to much skrying power in Ishka?
Yeah, that's WAY too much power, even for a city like this.

The Gatekeeper's maps don't detect temporary portals, the Gatekeepers hear about one, and an Operator marks it on the map.

Tracking the location of every individual creature in Ishka would be WAY too much, and besides, the city is so crowded, it would either be useless as groups just merged together, causing the entire map to be flooded with "THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE" markers, or so scaled down that you couldn't see individuals.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 02:47 PM

@TheLonelyScribe
The post office is great idea. They should also have foot mail for a much lower price its not relay by foot its just not teleported straight to your door step. Normally a carer teleports to a call then walks the rest to a local station for dispersal.
the three sisters need some work but have potential.
Ariel Sheen win description has room for improvement but still win.

mind beetles, defiantly not sewers.

@BRC

Gatekeeper ok defiantly no random portal.

the entire map to be flooded with "THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE" markers, or so scaled down that you couldn't see individuals.

that was kind of the point this function would be nearly useless but very cool.

but i thought that was to much any way just thought id throw it out there.

instead what if the main great map can not only move around but can also rewind to show the city at any earlier time in its development

also i was thinking the image projected by all the not great maps would be like a foot and a half cubed and for the normal great maps i am thinking like 5 feet at least, but what if the hypothetical main great map is not a projector but a room that if you wanted to you could "walk" anywhere in the city?

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 05:07 PM

Just some stuff that has been brewing in my mind for a while:

Organisation: The Citywide Post Office Association
As the name suggests, these are the people in charge of the teleporting letters around Ishka and beyond. Their customers are usually too poor to afford those swanky magical telephones, but not so poor that they can't afford the fairly high prices of postage. They are usually taken little notice of, but this works to their advantage, as some people will pay a lot to have a peek at someone's mail...

People of Interest: The 3 Siblings
These 3 shape-shifters are infamous workers of Hedon, but they aren't just your average doppelgänger whore. They have famous and powerful psychic abilities, including, but not limited to:
A detect thoughts affect continually active that does not pick up surface thoughts, but penetrates into the deepest and most secret sexual desires of the subject.
A telepathy effect that links them together, allowing instant empathetic correspondence even when on different planes.
Forms that flow continuously as they pick different tones of their customer's deepest desires.

The 3 Siblings are often recommended as a kind of psychological treatment, as there is something deeply stabilising about having your deepest desires fulfilled. They are also in secret correspondence with the alliance, using a special domination ability that can cause someone to kill themselves in order to pick off enemies of their patrons.

Place of Interest: Ariel Sheen
This is an area of shimmering air near the mitral tower. It is well known for it's magic, allowing special boats sold and rented by a nearby store to travel across it, resulting in a romantic and exhilarating diversion for the aristocratic. This, sadly, also has a connection to the alliance, as it is easy to pick someone off in there and simply blame it on their paddling out of the clearly marked boundaries of the zone.

Also, on his first research foray (if I ever get round to it), should Gerald go to the groves, the sewers, or that place where the weird psychic beetles sell memories.

I agree with the above assessment of your ideas, as to where Gerald should go I'ld say ease him into Ishka a bit and send him to one of The Groves, I agree the Sewers wouldn't really work and I think the Psychic Beetles might freak him out if he starts there.

RE The "UBER" Map: As I said and BRC reiterated keeping track of all the creatures in Ishka would be next to useless with the sheer volume of people and as I said before it would be a major invasion of privacy. However the idea that there is an "Uber" map in Primordium that can not only maintain an up-to-date account of Ishka and all it's various planar holdings but show how they looked in the past, but only as far back as it was first created. There is no way it could generate a map of pre-Great Map Ishka

RE The Great Maps:The Device itself takes up at least a 5foot square, the image itself, when not being manipulated, still fills a 10foot cube. When Being Manipulated it can be expanded to fill whatever room is housing the device. Like the "Uber" Map, the Great Maps maintain an up-to-date image of the city including things like clouds, fire, etc. However they do not have the rewind function of the "Uber" Map. As BRC suggested various Great Maps have different functions added to them depending on which HQ they're in.

RE Municiple Compounds: I like them only thing I might add is a Holomap of the local area.

The Anarresti

2010-04-21, 06:41 PM

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 07:05 PM

Well, we already agreed that most of the usual scrying-type spells do not function in Ishka (they pick up static, maybe a faint image, etc.) due to planar instability and constant magical interference, right? That's why the MIs have to do so much legwork and old-fashioned policing instead of just commissioning a bunch of game-breaking divinations. So, how does the Great Map function?

I, personally, am not a fan of the Great Map. Maybe some holographic maps, but not one that constantly updates. People would have to input data to change the map, not the map telling them were everything is. However, I see no problem will pulling old maps out of the database, if we want to go so magitechy. Then again, we already have steamworks and the Stations...

Yes I know scry-type spells don't work very well in Ishka as you said, that's part of the reason that even the "Uber" Map can't show creatures. As to how does it work I say if The Great Lantern can be only 40x40x40 but still provide light to all of Ishka (at least on the Material Plane), and The Great Fountain can help put out fires all over the city, then why can't there be a device which shows a constantly updating image of the city?

Renrik

2010-04-21, 07:11 PM

Place of interest: The Haven/Green Haven/Haven

This complex is a secret home of the Wild. It is not their headquarters- a group as decentralized as the Wild doesn't have a headquarters. Instead, it is a place where the Wild can feel safe from the city, and rest. It is their communal space, their haven.

The Haven is on the border between one of the Groves and a slum area. The houses were abandoned in a fit of plague, gutted by fire, and abandoned, only to become overgrown by the Grove. Now this forgotten corner of the Groves is used by the Wild.

Alternately, Haven is deep in the hunting grounds, protected by and from the beasts that make their home there. The Wild has found a way to pass into the Grounds, and, more disturbingly, pass the monsters without harm (I kind of like this idea- we have little or no reason the players could ever be in the Hunting Grounds right now, and going to the Haven should be a momentous journey).

Alternately, the Haven is at the heart of the Copper Junkyard, where they are the ones who breed the rust monsters to destroy the hated foundries of the city.

These and a dozen other places are rumored to be locations of the Green Haven, but nobody knows which it is, unless they've been there themselves.

Very few people outside of the Wild know of it (indeed, not all of the Wild knows where it is). A few Alliance members have the location, and with a handful of sympathetic Grove-dwellers.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 07:30 PM

RE The "UBER" Map: ... but only as far back as it was first created. There is no way it could generate a map of pre-Great Map Ishka

RE The Great Maps:The Device itself takes up at least a 5foot square, the image itself, when not being manipulated, still fills a 10foot cube. When Being Manipulated it can be expanded to fill whatever room is housing the device. ... including things like clouds, fire, etc. ... Great Maps have different functions added to them depending on which HQ they're in.

RE Municiple Compounds: I like them only thing I might add is a Holomap of the local area.

RE the uber map edited I meant to add that just forgot thank you.
while the distinction is kind of hokey i kind of like having most powerful map called The Great Map and each of the other real time maps be called a great map (like the MI great map in MI KQ), but if someone else has another suggestion i am open fore it. I just relay don't want to change the name of the main map id rather change the ones it feeds and even if we do im not fond of Uber Map. I think the German hurts my sense of Verisimilitude. How a bout The Main Great Map or the Main Map for short or The Root Map?

RE The Great Maps i am not sure that they would keep track o things like fire and clouds. on the one hand they are both phenomena that are in principal already tracked one being water (clearly implied) the other acting as a simple spreading shift in the structural make up.on the other neither is relay a structure.
also on this topic i think only The Main Great map and the one at street builder hq should list materials for every structure and the street builder one is only as good as the records used to be input into it.
Also is it a good idea for all of the great maps to transmit all of there notes to the main great map which would store them and allow you to view them optionally, for example you could over lay the fire fighter comments and the street builder comments to look for any non obvious connection and try and see where a fire started, or what made one particularly bad? you could also overlay MI and Fire fighters when looking for an arsonist. or even watch over time as the street builder assessment of stress on a pillar grows with the city.
Other wise your comments seem spot on.
lastly i concur all the Municiple compounds need a holomap preset to cover there local area.

Leaf-Eater dose have a point though, as it stands there are still so many things you could easily find out just by checking any up to date map closely though that is prohibitively time consuming to always check, like the hollow pillar in graveyard shift as a counter to this i propose that there is a low level, long duration days-weeks a level spell, sorc/wis/bard 1 druid/ranger 2, that clouds the image on the Main great map and conceals it withe whatever the caster desires and also can be cast with a semi costly 50-200gp material component to be made permanent i suggest another holomap.
and banks would use this spell to conceal there vault design, though they would have to give a copy of there plans to MI before casting this spell and masking there vault, also even without this alliance portals should not show up on even the Main map, only portals stabilized with the normal portal stabilizers mentioned ages ago show up.

The Anarresti

2010-04-21, 09:02 PM

I would just say that instead of a low-level spell clouding the Great Map, that instead the Great Map just can't show at a very high resolution. The thing is, the Great Map would give a huge advantage to the authorities. Let's say that a certain area is reputed to be the Green Haven:
"Ok, zoom in on this abandoned slum. Does it show signs of recent habitation?"
"Yes."
"Good. Send in the cavalry"

You see? I think one of the whole points of Ishka is that it is such a gigantic, sprawling and ancient city that NO ONE, not even the greatest Diviners of the collage, the head of the council, the Dragons, NO ONE knows where everything is. There is always some forgotten corner, some place to go adventure. It's not logically laid out; it organically grew over time, like most cities do, and it ended up the largest city on thousands of worlds, with over a billion beings living inside.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 09:46 PM

your objection make sense if and only if the great map ect all showed objects, as wrote the map only shows structures ie objects that are secured to the structure of the city, ie bolted down screw in mortared in ect so a hollowed out junk pile is invisible as i a regular junk pile as are all signs of habitation, except buildings, but in Ishka...

and i agree for all the maps less than great high resolution is not an issue, because even if your image was high res you would not be able to use it effectively, because at a 1 to 1 scale you would be nearly blind given the 1-2 foot display size, now for the normal great map this is the best reason i can think to limit display size to a 10 foot cube, then you wold ether get a good idea of the immediate aria or a sketchy view of a wider area, which considering the level of clutter in the streets of Ishka easily obfuscates any funny business.
as for the main map i think im ok with allowing an exhaustive search to track a path through the city. because only one group can do it at a time and there is no information as to where anyone or any thing is if it is not part of a building.
what do you think?

Silverscale

2010-04-21, 09:47 PM

Now we're getting into areas of detail that should be left up to individual DMs. Remember all these "Great Works" are Artifacts. Artifacts are there for DMs to streamline the action of the story, Deus ex Machina. To my mind, while there may be No one that knows where everything is in Ishka that does not mean that The Great Map can't be made to show a fair amount of detail. It would take just as much time to search through an area using The Great Map as it would to send a person/group there to search it IRL. Only the gods have enough time at their disposal to know everything there is to know about Ishka.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-21, 09:52 PM

my point exactly, you need time and if you only use the great map someday you are going to be duped by a lowly level 1 caster, who in person couldn't have hid a thing. but if you use the map and real scouts, then hiding anything becomes a huge problem.

furthermore I think the real block to scriying, aside from teleportation and portals, is the fact that there is such a high population density, so i scriy john smith son of Jeramie Smith, there are at least 10 of those in the city 1 of whom is probably dead and walking. it is nearly impossible to unambiguously describe someone and find the path just goes nuts and overloads with all the choices on this plain alone with out teliportation, it just wasn't built to cope.

on an unrelated topic we realy need names and one line bios for the major players in the city, namely the main council members, the dragons in there temporal not saintly sense, the head of MI, the head of the street Builders, 1 or two alliance bigwigs, the tree, someone important in or to the wild, and example big businessman, someone big in Hedon, any one else?

The Anarresti

2010-04-21, 10:26 PM

I agree with Silverscale that we need to be careful not to go overboard, and remember that our goal in providing detail is to make it easier for DMs, but not so much so that we do their job for them.

Owrtho

2010-04-21, 10:42 PM

I also would expect that the Great Maps would have some issues with Ravenshome. After all, to the best of anyone's knowledge, it just sprung up some time in the long forgotten past. No streetbuilders have done work there for longer than anyone knows. And it isn't uncommon for the layout to change when no one is looking.
I also agree with the not being able to show creatures part.

Owrtho

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-22, 01:20 AM

I'm sorry, but am I the only one finding BLiZme.2 genuinely hard to understand? It's a little thing, but a bit of grammar tidying would make things more pleasant for all of us (especially punctuation, if you do anything, let it be more punctuation). I know your grammar is better that a lot of people's on the internet, but we're used to high standards here.

In other news, I think that the default for the great maps should be that they only show the outsides of buildings (but the DM can change this if they wish), therefore avoiding too much information and/or invasion of privacy. Either that or they have to be manually updated.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-22, 07:19 AM

How do we define outside even roughly when even the streets have buildings built on top of them? everything is kind of inside.

As to my spelling i apologize my spelling is terrible, i know, long story. but i try to reread usually at least twice and if spell-check gets it i try to make sure it is at least a homonym. As to punctuation i will make an effort to work on that,sorry.

back on subject
As to Ravenshome. The statues themselves would never show up on the map's even if they weren't magic(there not anchored to the city just realty heavy). The district would only be obvious to a person on foot and then probably only if they were paying attention, at least at first. Furthermore i think we have also established that the rules pillar in the main plaza is man made, thus easily accounted fore. leaving only the mysterious appearance of there rope ball field. Which may just look like a bunch of buildings wincing out, or the area getting really blurry and then when it clears being a field. Seeing as if we assume the great map is a scrying device (i repeat assuming) there appears to be consensus it can be easily fouled lv1 abjuration, this is well within the Raven's power. Also all ware and tare removal would be so minor as to be invisible. For example, even if you were standing right there i could see, the Ravens activating mending on the cracked sidewalk i am on, and me not even noticing. Maintenance especially with magic is harder to notice than outright repair.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-22, 07:43 AM

Thanks for putting in more punctuation, it makes you a lot more understandable, and some really good ideas become more clear (I don't really care about spelling that much).

I think that having the map be foiled by even the weakest abjuration would be the way to make it make sense. The wild would probably make 'dead zones' all over the city as decoys for their real hiding place, and most people could keep the effect out of their homes if they were rich enough. I can imagine a zero level spell like 'Foil Map', preventing a small area from showing up on the great map for caster level rounds. In this scenario I imagine that Ravenshome would mainly be a misty mass, with a few spots of clarity.

Another way they could make sense is if the divination effect was tied to the dancing lights around the city. That would mean it was constantly updated, but the lights can only see what a scouting party would be able to see. I know it takes a lot of time to search for something on the great maps, but I still think some things should be immune to the divination, if only so that PCs can have a fun time slaying monsters on the way to get some information rather than just sitting around for ages in front of some hologram. In this scenario I imagine that the ravens would sometimes get the lights to avoid a certain area whilst repairs/maintenance/cleaning/building is going on. In this case, creatures would show up, but only when they're in a public space anyway.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-22, 08:37 AM

as for the spell, good name by the way, i think it should be something like this

'Foil Map'
abjuration
sorc/wiz/bard/druid 0
cleric/everyone else 1
components VSM(see below)
duration hours-weeks per level(see below)
target 10 cubic feat per level any shape
range short
this causes the area to appear as a misty indistinct blur on the great map and any maps copied off it while the spell is in effect.
special the spell can be made permanent if a lesser holomap is used as an optional material component.

also
abjuration
confudale Map
sorc/wiz/bard/druid 3-5
components VSM(seebelow)
duration as Foil Map
target as Foil Map
range medium

this spell allows the caster to make the great map see an area in any way the caster chooses limited only by that The Great Map is capable of showing.
special the spell can be made permanent if a holomap is used as an optional material component.

I also like the idea of tying it to the great lantern. I just think that there should also be a way to actively map some where shrouded in darkens, or else the dark neighborhood in the shadow district would never get mapped.
maybe a lvl 1 spell cast at that area that also counters and dispels confudale and foil map?
and as to creatures we determinant earlier that even the great map cant see creatures it can only see buildings and maybe large unattended inanimate objects, but even im not keen on that. So it can see the shape of a bedroom and maybe the bed frame, but probably not even the bed frame.

Silverscale

2010-04-22, 08:39 AM

On an unrelated topic, we really need names and one-line bios for the major players in the city. Namely the main councal members, and the Dragons in there temporal, not saintly sense. Also the head of MI, the head of the Streetbuilders, one or two Alliance big-wigs, The Tree, someone important for The Wild, an example big businessman, someone big in Hedon, any one else?{EDITED for Grammer}As to the council members we already have job titles and brief descriptions for them, but yes names and on-liners would be good.

As to the Dragons, I can't remember if someone suggested names for them or not but we definantly have Bios for them.

As to the Heads of MI, The Streetbuilders etc, some of those wuold be cross overs with the council members.

As to an Alliance Big-wig, we've got Frankie from Lonely-Scribe's story

As to The Millenium Tree, It doesn't so much have a name as a title. That title may be different depending on who you ask btu in general they all translate to The Great Tree or some such title. There is already a Bio for The Tree in the origional write-up.

As to Important people in Hedon, we already have The Master and The Mistress, and the Triplets, all un-named as they should be for annonimity. They do have Bios if I rememeber correctly.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-22, 09:12 AM

As to the Dragons we could still use some more bio info like there personality tips like say red plays the market with risky ventures while Gold is all blue chips.

As to the Heads of MI, The Streetbuilders etc you may have a point but i don't think they would ball be on the council even if thy are advising it all the time MI and street builder management are full time jobs they don't have time for council politics except as little as is required in the line of duty.

Alliance Big-wig true i would still like 1 more for variety but that may get covered in Hedon though.

The Millenium Tree we have a history but no personality like the dragons

As to Important people in Hedon, we already have The Master and The Mistress, and the Triplets, all un-named as they should be for annonimity. They do have Bios if I rememeber correctly.
ya i guess this is covered and fills variety for the Alliance to

ditto BRC below the Green haven should be in the hunting grounds.

BRC

2010-04-22, 09:19 AM

The City Council is different than the Cabinet or Secretaries or whatever I called them. Those advise the Council, but don't get votes. The Council itself is made up of Representatives from the different districts.

Also, the beginning of a story I might write when I wrap up Graveyard Shift.
Honor Amongst

Jack was not a Nervous person by nature. He could pick a pocket without his face so much as quivering. When picking a lock or slipping through a window, his hand was steady.
But now, walking through the streets to the tapping sound of Old Raka’s cane, he felt nervous. Like he was going to see some great king from the stories the monks had told him when he was little and they would take him and the other urchins in, give them food, a bed for the night, and a lengthy sermon about the glory of the Saints. Jack had always slipped out after one night, but eventually he would go back. Kindly old Sister Maynard, who always mentioned how Jack was scrawny, gave him some extra soup, and read them stories about shining outworld Knights battling evil, would certainly not have approved of what Jack was doing right now, or what he’d been doing for the last couple years.
Sometimes, Jack felt like he was in one of those stories.
The Wise Crone took the young knave to the grand palace where the King held court. It’s banners flapped in the wind, proclaiming the power of the Monarch within to all.
“Here we are.” Old Raka said, gesturing to a building like any other in this part of the Commons, It’s windows dusty enough to prevent somebody outside from seeing in. It was positioned halfway between two Lantern lights, so it was always somewhat shadowed. A sign above the door read “Used Books Bought and Sold”. They went inside.
Inside the Castle, footmen in gleaming uniforms awaited them, armored knights stood at guard, their weapons of the finest make. They knew the Wise Crone, and let her pass. The Young Knave glanced around, awed at the splendor on sight. The Wise Crone took him to the Herald at his high seat. The herald spoke.
“Wise Crone, I know you and you are always welcome in the court of the king. Tell me your business.”
“This is Jack, he wishes to become a Knight. I have judged him and found him quick of wit and foot, strong of arm and heart, and steadfast in his honor and duty. I wish to present him before the King.”
The herald smiled, “Very well Wise Crone. The King will grant you an audience. You may find him in the throne room, enter forthwith and present the boy so the King may judge him.”
Inside the bookshop several burly men in loose clothing sat on chairs or leaned against walls. One of them was cleaning his nails with a nasty looking knife. Another flipped through an old book. They looked up when the door opened, but turned back to what they were doing when they saw Old Raka.
Raka brushed past them and moved up to the counter. A sharp-eyed elf stood there and looked down.
“Raka, why are you here, and who is that?”
“This is Jack, he’s here about the Opening”
“Does the boss expect you?”
“He does”
“Fine, go on in. He’s waiting for you.” With that the elf apparently forgot they existed and went back to scribbling in a ledger.
As they walked down the long hall, the Crone spoke. “Boy. The King is wise and good. He will ask you questions, answer him honestly. Show him you have wisdom and honor, and he will look kindly upon you. He is a humble man, but you should treat him with respect. He is still King, and we are guests in his court.”
The Old Crone and the Young Knave entered the Throne room. The King sat there, surrounded by his advisors, his chosen Knights standing behind him. Upon his head sat a crown studded with a thousand gems, upon his body a robe made of the finest silks and furs. The king himself sat on a magnificent throne which itself sat atop a dais. The King’s face shone with kindly wisdom.
Raka pulled Jack aside “Listen, when he asks you questions, give him a straight answer. Don’t evade, don’t dodge. Don't bother lying or exaggerating, he'll see right through it. Show him you can do what your told, that’s what’s important him. He hates brownnosing, but don’t give him any lip either.”
Jack and Old Raka entered the back room, more thugs stood against the wall. Near the back of the room was a stout, red-skinned orc with a pair of small horns and slightly glowing eyes sat at a cluttered desk smoking a foul smelling cigar. A bowler hat was perched upon him head, and he wore a cheap suit. He was engaged in hushed conversation with a Kobold and a Ghost. Old Naka spoke first.
“Frankie Lakree, if I could have a minute of your time?”

Edit: I like the idea of the Green Haven being inside the Hunting Ground.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-22, 10:00 AM

As to an Alliance Big-wig, we've got Frankie from Lonely-Scribe's story

BRC's story. Give credit where credit is due.

Also, talking about stories by BRC, I think that the new one is good, but that it ought to include an aristocrat's viewpoint somewhere along the line. So far all our stories are about the dirty, squashed, unpleasant side of Ishka, and it would be nice to have some insight into the lives of the parched (geddit?) up the mithral tower.

Silverscale

2010-04-22, 10:33 AM

Re Honor Amongst: BRC you're awesomness knows no bounds.

BRC's story. Give credit where credit is due.My bad you're absolutely right.

BRC

2010-04-22, 10:37 AM

Re Honor Amongst: BRC you're awesomness knows no bounds.

Mind if I sig that?

Concerning Another Story: Ishka would be a great place for a political intrigue story. unfortunetly, I'm no good at writing those.

Silverscale

2010-04-22, 10:51 AM

Mind if I sig that?Go for it.

Concerning Another Story: Ishka would be a great place for a political intrigue story. unfortunetly, I'm no good at writing those.I agree but I'm not very good at writing stories in general, no matter their genre.

Silverscale

2010-04-22, 04:01 PM

Does anyone have any other ideas for the scale map I'm working on of Ishka? Keep in mind the scale is .25Inch=2miles so not a whole lot of detail. Not many things are 2 miles wide.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-22, 07:42 PM

Not sure what of this is a rehash of other ideas but here goes.

primordium and mithral heights
I think the primordium and mithral heights will be kind of close to each other based on the history of the region so the Primordium is at the bottom of the canyon and mithral heights is to one side of it, my gut says that mithral heights is up left of the Primordium (to the left when facing up stream, like in the direction descriptions a while ago). I also think thy both should be a little up river of the coast, but not more than a day or tow by river in the old days, and far from the lake, one of the newest areas of the city. Because the city started as a riverside fishing village this means one of three things. 1 they were on a small lake, not the lake district lake. 2 they were sustained by seasonal fish migrations. 3 they were actually on the ocean cost. i like option 2 the best, because ocean and to a lesser extent large scale lake fishing rarely uses a pole and the founders artifact is a fishing pole. Also if the city started on the ocean that would change the tenor of the descriptions of the early city a lot, so if they were within shipping distance but not actually on the cost makes the most sense, this also implies there were no rapids between the early city and the coast another mark for the primordial being down river.
customs and immigration and The Art Communit
i think customs and immigration should be located on the outer edge of the city right below under mithral heights because as i said this is an older section and this function would develop early and anyone going to C&I should be suitably impressed by the tower of mithral. the art comunity should also be near the base of mithral hights for proximity to patronage and being near C&I should drive rent down all those foreigners.

River and geography
I think we have established that the river flows north. In my opinion Ishka should be in the southern hemisphere so the farther up river you go the colder the weather gets, not that it changes much deep in the city. In any event i think the coast should be the closest point to the equator, sans magic and small protectorates, if the river runs north south or south north so the port can be readily accessible all year. if the river dose not flow N-S then i think the coast should be the eastern edge of the city i dont know why but it sounds right to me.
The Draconic Heritage Collective and Main Grove
I also think the DHC should be in a larger branch canyon about half way between the lake and the primordium, because the dragons could see the early city and call it such but think it of no concern for at least the next couple hundred to thousand years.i also think that the main Grove district should have started at about the time the dragons settled down to play there game placing it about half way between the primordium and the DHC because that would have been the least urban part of the city at the time as it would have spread toward the coast faster than up river.

it has already been stated a major steam-works is by the port district and just past the warehouse complexes and Market district at the docks. i think the city didn't relay start to get crazy withe the magic until a century or so after the dragons finished there game, so that wold mean the moderin acadamy was founded arond that tome and is therefor close to but still slibhtly farther upstream than the DHC and in my opinion it should hav its foundations on the canion wall and be on the oposit side as mitheral hithts for reasons of "Arcane sincronisity" or some such thing

More to come

done
//Customs and Immigrations, //The Draconic Heritage Collective, //The Grove District, //Primordium

to do done
Academy, The Art Community, The Collected Colleges, The Dark City, Ether, Everdark, Galdren, Gobin, Gulliver's Heights, Hedon, Mere, The Monaster, The Necropolis, The Port District, Ravenshome, Smallville, Stadel, The Steamworks, Sunset Isle, Ungul, The Vault

Silverscale

2010-04-22, 08:08 PM

Not sure what of this is a rehash of other ideas but here goes.

primordium and mithral heights
I think the primordium and mithral heights will be kind of close to each other based on the history of the region so the Primordium is at the bottom of the canyon and mithral heights is to one side of it, my gut says that mithral heights is up left of the Primordium (to the left when facing up stream, like in the direction descriptions a while ago). I also think thy both should be a little up river of the coast, but not more than a day or tow by river in the old days, and far from the lake, one of the newest areas of the city. Because the city started as a riverside fishing village this means one of three things. 1 they were on a small lake, not the lake district lake. 2 they were sustained by seasonal fish migrations. 3 they were actually on the ocean cost. i like option 2 the best, because ocean and to a lesser extent large scale lake fishing rarely uses a pole and the founders artifact is a fishing pole. Also if the city started on the ocean that would change the tenor of the descriptions of the early city a lot, so if they were within shipping distance but not actually on the cost makes the most sense, this also implies there were no rapids between the early city and the coast another mark for the primordial being down river.
customs and immigration and The Art Communit
i think customs and immigration should be located on the outer edge of the city right below under mithral heights because as i said this is an older section and this function would develop early and anyone going to C&I should be suitably impressed by the tower of mithral. the art comunity should also be near the base of mithral hights for proximity to patronage and being near C&I should drive rent down all those foreigners.

River and geography
I think we have established that the river flows north. In my opinion Ishka should be in the southern hemisphere so the farther up river you go the colder the weather gets, not that it changes much deep in the city. In any event i think the coast should be the closest point to the equator, sans magic and small protectorates, if the river runs north south or south north so the port can be readily accessible all year. if the river dose not flow N-S then i think the coast should be the eastern edge of the city i dont know why but it sounds right to me.
The Draconic Heritage Collective and Main Grove
I also think the DHC should be in a larger branch canyon about half way between the lake and the primordium, because the dragons could see the early city and call it such but think it of no concern for at least the next couple hundred to thousand years.i also think that the main Grove district should have started at about the time the dragons settled down to play there game placing it about half way between the primordium and the DHC because that would have been the least urban part of the city at the time as it would have spread toward the coast faster than up river.

it has already been stated a major steam-works is by the port district and just past the warehouse complexes and Market district at the docks. i think the city didn't relay start to get crazy withe the magic until a century or so after the dragons finished there game, so that wold mean the moderin acadamy was founded arond that tome and is therefor close to but still slibhtly farther upstream than the DHC and in my opinion it should hav its foundations on the canion wall and be on the oposit side as mitheral hithts for reasons of "Arcane sincronisity" or some such thing

Just responding a little randomly to whatever comes to mind first.....

I think it was stated the Primordium is actually a section of the original city that was moved "lock-stock-and barrel" into a massive pocket dimension. That's not to say that the original city wouldn't in part still be there at the bottom of the canyon lets say 30 miles up-river from the ocean, but the district itself is off-plane

As to the "Main Grove" If you are talking about the Massive grove that surrounds The Millenium Tree then that is along the river as it's leaving the Lake District before it plunges into the canyon. Again that's not to say that there isn't another massive section of The Grove half way down the canyon as you suggest and indeed there probably is.

As to the orientation of the river, I always assumed it ran North to South but South to North works too just so long as, like you said, The Port District at the ocean is toward the equator and The Lake District is further away from the equator otherwise a lot of other assumptions about what surrounds Ishka need to be looked at.

That's all I can think of at the moment, I think the rest of your ideas are pretty good and I'll try to incorperate them. The one thing I might nit-pick is that this has the whole city being weighted heavily toward the coast so far.....I've always assumed that by this point things have pretty much spread to fill the canyon evenly.

Owrtho

2010-04-23, 04:26 AM

On the issue of Ravenshome and the Great Maps, I was referring to that the Ravens can and do rearrange the layout of the district (usually a little less than a street a month, though more extensive changes have been known to happen). All that's known about them is they seem to occur instantly, silently, and when no one is looking. Many who live there can tell stories of waking up to find that they are in a different part of the district, or that their street now travels east/west rather than north/south. These changes rarely have a huge impact on navigating the district however for those familiar with the area.
As for the lights going out, that is quite common. Particularly given that almost all the lights seem to be made by the Ravens (exceptions being the occasional candle (carefully regulated), and the odd light spell that a resident casts). The main lights in Ravenshome tend to come in three levels, full (giving a bright, unnaturally sterile seeming light), half (seems like torch lit lamp posts without the lamps), and off (pitch black). None of them have any visible light source, but are just uniform lighting throughout the district.

Nice story part as always BRC.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-23, 07:10 AM

@ Silverscale

on the primordium i realize it is in a demiplain but i always thought its main gate is in the districts original location.

on the "Main Grove" I did mean the one with the millennium tree but you are right it is by the lake. Though there should be probably be a stretch of the grove district there anyway. on the other hand Ungul was described as a former grove district that became a major centaur settlement and attracted other four legged creatures so maby the section near the DHC was the original mane grove and became Ungul?

part of the concentration issue is that i started by going over the oldest districts first also 30 miles seems like a good number to me for the original sight of the city

what iv already said about this with minor edits

primordium and mithral heights
I think the primordium and mithral heights will be kind of close to each other based on the history of the region so the Primordium is at the bottom of the canyon and mithral heights is to one side of it, my gut says that mithral heights is up left of the Primordium (to the left when facing up stream, like in the direction descriptions a while ago). I also think thy both should be a little up river of the coast, but not more than a day or tow by river in the old days, and far from the lake, one of the newest areas of the city. Because the city started as a riverside fishing village this means one of three things. 1 they were on a small lake, not the lake district lake. 2 they were sustained by seasonal fish migrations. 3 they were actually on the ocean cost. i like option 2 the best, because ocean and to a lesser extent large scale lake fishing rarely uses a pole and the founders artifact is a fishing pole. Also if the city started on the ocean that would change the tenor of the descriptions of the early city a lot, so if they were within shipping distance but not actually on the cost makes the most sense, this also implies there were no rapids between the early city and the coast another mark for the primordial being down river.

customs and immigration,The Art Communit
i think customs and immigration should be located on the outer edge of the city right below under mithral heights because as i said this is an older section and this function would develop early and anyone going to C&I should be suitably impressed by the tower of mithral. the art comunity should also be near the base of mithral hights for proximity to patronage and being near C&I should drive rent down, "all those foreigners".

River and geography
I think we have established that the river flows north. In my opinion Ishka should be in the southern hemisphere so the farther up river you go the colder the weather gets, not that it changes much deep in the city. In any event i think the coast should be the closest point to the equator, sans magic and small protectorates, if the river runs north south or south north so the port can be readily accessible all year. if the river dose not flow N-S then i think the coast should be the eastern edge of the city i dont know why but it sounds right to me.

The Draconic Heritage Collective and Main Grove
I also think the DHC should be in a larger branch canyon about half way between the lake and the primordium, because the dragons could see the early city and call it such but think it of no concern for at least the next couple hundred to thousand years.i also think that the main Grove district should have started at about the time the dragons settled down to play there game placing it about half way between the primordium and the DHC because that would have been the least urban part of the city at the time as it would have spread toward the coast faster than up river.

docks and Misc
it has already been stated a major steam-works is by the port district and just past the warehouse complexes and Market district at the docks.

Stadel
I think that Stadel should also be located in this general area of the mitheral heights and art district, it should be especially close to the Collected collages, which was the academy of the time of its banishment,and fairly close but up river, because the "kingdom" was allegedly from the early days of the city. in retrospect it may even be a little way past the The Collected Colleges

academy and The Collected Colleges
i think the city didn't relay start to get crazy withe the magic until a century or so after the dragons finished there game, so that wold mean the modern academy was founded around that time, and is therefor close to but still slightingly farther upstream than the DHC and in my opinion it should have its foundations on the cannon wall and be on the opposite side as mitheral heights for reasons of "Arcane sincronisity" or some such thing, this implies that The Collected Colleges are located before the DHC as they were the original academy campus and were eventual made a satilight campus and then drooped

The Necropolis and Everdark
at about the time the city had a large enough Elvin and Fae community to truly begin the project that would become the groves the city was probably experiencing a massive problem of what to do with the city's dearly departed so the people of Ishka built the basis of what would one day become the catacombs in an unusual fluke the place cavern selected by the city council the initial sight was extremely close to the negative material plain causing many of the body's initially stood here to spontaneously reanimate at first teh city was repulsed by this but when it became obvious that most of these undead were thinking individuals most of whom loved there city things calmed down rapidly the not so subtle threats of the newly arrived lich Graveborle that any mass uprising against the city's sentient undead would have dire consistences also helped. Thus allowing a simple high density graveyard to evolve into a massive community of undead. the main negative material gate was also probably one of the first major "elemental" gates opened. On a similar note the active necropolis began to attract undead from around the world ,including vampires and other sun sensitive undead, to protect themselves these undead would have set up an area adjacent to the necropolis that was nicely shielded from the harmful rays of the sun, this sheltered area eventual began attracting other sun vulnerable species and thus the Everdark was born.

The Vault, Hedon and Ravenhome
The Vault it seems to me that the entrance to the vault should be a large fortress like structure imagine a nearly solid cube of concrete and steal the size of a city block. The main doors being just large enough to allow a colossal prisoner to squeeze through, and to the portal to there cell the fortress would also house the visitors room if one exists as well as the portion of the staff that needs to deal with the outside. As a mater of security i think the portal to the demiplan should only open eight times a day at scheduled times and then only if the main door ways are all locked. The fortress also needs some temporary holding sells. in my opinion the vault should be located at the base of the canyon and a considerable way up river from the DHC.
i just like the irony of hedon being near to The Vault so id put it just across the river from the vault entrance
on a similar note the only thing i remember about where Ravenhome is is that someone mentioned that people going to hedon often skirted Ravenhome, an image i personal like. so we should put it there probably putting hedon at the bottom of one of the side chasms and Ravenholme in another cavern that joins withe the main cavern like a K. and then the vault is opposite the joint in the K

The Dark City
i have no idea its in a huge cave under the canyon but where i do not know.

Gulliver's Heights and Smallville
i think Gulliver's Heights is primarily built on the top of the cliff somewhere between the lake and the DHC, probably closer to the middle or the lake this district extends all the way up to the clouds because of the cloud/storm giant settlements though not necessarily being taller at ground level, it just has permanent solid clouds above it. I think we also decided that the main center of smallvile was the mansion of a very large giant or titan that horribly abused its smaller servants who then revolted and took control of the mansion and set up the first smallville inside of Gulliver's Heights.

Gobin
i imagine that gobin is located down the side of the city kind of close to the lake but not on it and gobin isint so much in the city as on it king of like a bulge jutting of the city of slumish goblin apartments supporting hobgoblin manors and bugbear barracks.

The "millennium" Grove District,Mere
the Millennium tree and Mere are both located on the lake, the millennium tree at the point where the river flows out of the lake and Mere on its fare side. I had always imagined the lake to be surrounded by mountains sort of like it was sitting at the base of a V, this would allow the drainage basins of two mountain ranges to feed into the reservoir of the lake and if the lake sat in the foot hills of this range, then that would allow them to hold back more water, as well as causing the lake to be at a higher elevation.

Sunset Isle
is located some where on the same plain on an equatorial island that is geographically distant from the rest of the city.

mages distract
i imagine that the mages distract is near the lake, because even a poor mage can make a far better living than most people and they wouldn't care if they were close to the academy or not because they could just build there own portals. I also think this district wouldn't relay develop until the academy shifts heavily to magic which i think would happen a couple hundred years after the move to the currant campus from the sight of the The Collected Colleges, and they would have just built at the edge of the city which was just getting near the lake this would also allow them to more easily use the lake portal harbors to there advantage so i think the mages district is on the lake and the river, just opposite the millennium grove.

The temple district
is at least as old as the necropolis but more main stream so it should be somewhere around the original sight of the primordium probably in a side canyon.

other districts
Galdren suronds the city out to a great distance
The Commons North and South any where not one of the other distracrs split somewhere between the DHC and The Vault
The Monaster not shure it should exist. Or is in a minor canyon abutting the temple district.
Ether scaterd all over the city on teh etherial plain.
Terradome main gate in a cave somewhere.
Redmere no idea stem works for main gate.
Aquarane no idea lake or a stem works for main gate.
Aerodyne main gate in midair near the mithral heights sky dock.

guess at general order of the city

Sunset Isle

port
Market
The Steamworks

Customs and Immigrations
Mitheral hights
Primordium
The Art Community

The temple district

Stadel

The Collected Colleges

Ungul

The Necropolis
Everdark

academy

halfway mark of the canyon

The Draconic Heritage Collective

Ravenshome
The Vault
Hedon

/The Dark City: This feels right to me

Gulliver's Heights
Smallville

Gobin

mages distract
The "millennium" Grove District

Mere

other districts
Galdren: surond city
The Commons North and South: fills city split near DHC and Vault
Ether: overlaps much of the city on the etherial plain.
Terradome:gate in a cave somewhere.
Redmere:main gate in a steam works?
Aquarane:main gate in a steamworks or the lake?
Aerodyne:main gate in midair near mitheral tower.

Did i miss anything?

Silverscale

2010-04-23, 10:51 AM

BLiZme.2

2010-04-23, 11:44 AM

Generally I argee with everything you've got here and I think you hit most of the districts.....certainly the major ones. The only thing I wuold add is that The Necropilis and The Temple Disctrict should be on opposite sides of the canyon almost directly across from eachother.

Also I've always assumed The Market District is as close to the center of the city as it can be becaus enot only does it process goods coming in from The Port District but also coming in from the Skyport near Mithril Heights, across land from galdren and beyond, the gate to Aquarane in The Lake District, etc..

Re The Necropilis and The Temple Disctrict I had considered that to but thought it to brazen to just suggest myself,considering everything else I was asserting, i like it.

Re The Market District i see your point but i think we described it as being near the port and sky-port already and therefor near the coat you also have to remember the heart of the mages (edit) district is the Bazaar of the Bazaar a huge astral marketplace wit connections to the portal ports in the lake and a huge gate to the main market so we have one huge market at ether end of the city and they are connected.

I think someone mentioned a specialized steam works that proses semi raw materials to the forms they are received by craftsmen. That could go in the city center think combination lumberyard, stone quarry, wholesale grain market, gravel seller, cement outfitter, basically the craftsman's market not a retail market.

seeing as the map is going to also mark the major teliport stations i think we need to talk out the nature of the rough i like the idea that there are multiple lines. so an academy student could hop the main line(acadamy, primordium, mages, mitheral heights, marcket)(i like this order), to to Primordium Central Station. Then catch the black line(primordium, Ravenhome, Darkcity, necropolis,???) and go through Ravenhome and the Darkcity get out at the necropolis. Cross the gray bridge(main thoroughfare between the necropolis and temple district) then ride the white line (primordium, temple, mitheral heights, milenium grove, Galdren station #1,??? ) through mithral heights and the milenium grove, get out at one of several major grain collections along Galdren. all of this in like two or three hours tops. Then hop the green line(Galdren 1, Ungil,Galdren 2,millennium grove,Galdren 3,locked station (used to be tight next to the main gate of the hunting area now just part of the commons),Galdren 4,primordiom,???,Galdren ?,??? ) back to ungul and just walk to the The Collected Colleges and catch the yellow line (mages, academy, Collages, ???) right back to the academy.
other lines blue (port, lake, river, primordium,???) ???

BRC

2010-04-23, 11:54 AM

Mithril Heights was described as being built above one of the biggest Steamworks. The Market district is described as being next to that steam works and the Port district.

I don't think the Station lines should go out to Galdren. They're meant for everyday travel for regular commuters, none of which would go to Galdren.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-23, 12:21 PM

i kind of agree with you but i think there should be one branch line for the people of Galdren so they can get in to the city proper so basically the green line goes to several vastly different spots all over Galdren and then drops you straight into the city then out to the sticks then back to the city ect. the green line might even have slightly different stations so it can cray large grain bins.

as to mitheral height ect that just means that thigs get pushed closer to the port how about this

port
Market
The Steamworks
Customs and Immigrations
Mitheral hights

The Art Community
Primordium

... as before

where The Steamworks is right at the base of the tower and Customs and Immigrations is on the edge of the city at the end of a road leading right in to the official main gate of the city, just a title relay.

Owrtho

2010-04-23, 12:59 PM

Ravenshome has from almost the beginning been described as being next to Necropolis. It also isn't in the caves. However, that doesn't mean it couldn't be near the entrance to Hedon, making most of the shortest routes there pass through it.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-23, 01:31 PM

I never said Ravenhome was in the caves i said it was in a side canyon and i implied hedon was down a cave at the end of another side cavern. You may be right about it being by the necropolis, though something made me think that wasn't right, but i could easily have been wrong. That would make having hedon and the vault together and not over burdening the end of the city with the port hard.

also if it was ok withe everyone else i wold be ok moving Ravenhome away from the necropolis to spred the city out withtheese changes the city loks something like one of these

Sunset Isle

port
Market
The Steamworks
Customs and Immigrations
Mitheral hights

The Art Community
Primordium

?1?The temple district?1?

Stadel

The Collected Colleges

Ungul

The Vault
Hedon
Ravenshome
?1?The temple district?1?
The Necropolis
?1?The temple district?1?
Everdark

academy

halfway mark of the canyon
possible raw materials plant steam-works

The Draconic Heritage Collective

other location of Ravenshome The Vault Hedon

/The Dark City: This feels right to me

Gulliver's Heights
Smallville

Gobin

mages distract
The "millennium" Grove District

Mere

other districts
Galdren: surond city
The Commons North and South: fills city split near DHC and Vault
Ether: overlaps much of the city on the etherial plain.
Terradome:gate in a cave somewhere.
Redmere:main gate in a steam works?
Aquarane:main gate in a steamworks or the lake?
Aerodyne:main gate in midair near mitheral tower.

Sunset Isle

port
Market
The Steamworks
Customs and Immigrations
Mitheral hights

The Art Community
Primordium

?1?The temple district?1?

Stadel

The Collected Colleges

Ungul

?2?Hedon?2?
Ravenshome
?1?The temple district?1?
The Necropolis
?1?The temple district?1?
Everdark

academy

halfway mark of the canyon
possible raw materials plant steam-works

The Draconic Heritage Collective

The Vault
?2?Hedon?2?

/The Dark City: This feels right to me

Gulliver's Heights
Smallville

Gobin

mages distract
The "millennium" Grove District

Mere

other districts
Galdren: surond city
The Commons North and South: fills city split near DHC and Vault
Ether: overlaps much of the city on the etherial plain.
Terradome:gate in a cave somewhere.
Redmere:main gate in a steam works?
Aquarane:main gate in a steamworks or the lake?
Aerodyne:main gate in midair near mitheral tower.

which is markedly less spread out and more top heavy, both negatives in my opinion and saints forbid we move the necropolis ect all towards the coast, that area is cramped as is.
any other insights would be welcom though.

Silverscale

2010-04-23, 04:29 PM

I think the best thing to do from here will be for me to draw out the map and see where things seem to want to fit.

erictheredd

2010-04-23, 07:28 PM

a couple of comments about connections--- some places should be smack next to each other, while others have a small piece of commons in between. for example, the necropolis and Everdark should have an adjacent border, but I wouldn't have the two areas sandwiched between the vault and the academy. there should be some "commons" space in between them.
Also, I really don't see Guliver's heights actually being in the canyon, and would put them off to the side, perhaps near an area that wouldn't like sunlight-- like the necropolis.
I appreciate the effort on the map. keep going!

BLiZme.2

2010-04-23, 08:49 PM

If you will notice in my rundown of the way the city lines up some of the districts have enters between them and some do not. That is intentional and represents areas of commons like you said, though that dose bear mention, also the ordering of most of the districts without enters is just me trying to get some idea of whic district likly starts first or end last or have to touch, even if some or all of two districts are parallel. like how the temple district and necropolis have ben proposed to be right across the river from one another. they are evan but i would still list them as ether

necropolase
tmple

or

temple
necropolas

i guess i should have explained that more clearly sooner sorry my bad.

as to Gulliver Heights. I mentioned that that district is-int actual in the cavern but siting on the edge of the cliff, withe sections suspended in the clouds. Though putting it near a dark loving district may be nice, do to the perpetual partly cloudiness, but i imagined the cloud houses were very sparse and connected by thin bridges and gates.

Proposed map sketch

Blue means the shape of the canyon.
Blue means ocean.
Blue means lake.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~Sunset Isle~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.....................................port \/port
.............................warehouses|warehouses
...................................Market|Market
...........................Steamworks |Steamworks Mitheral hights Customs and immigrations
..........................Steamworks | The Steamworks
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |The Art Community
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |Primordium
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.........?1?The temple district?1?|
.......................................... |
.......................................... | Stadel
.............The Collected Colleges|
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |Ungul
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
?? .......................................| Hedon..............??
??..........................The Vault K Ravenshome.....??
.......................................... |
.........?1?The temple district?1?| The Necropolis
.......................................... | Everdark
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
..............................academy |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.........................halfway mark | of the canyon
.............possible raw materials | plant steam-works
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
........................................... L The Draconic Heritage Collective
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... | Hedon..............??
??..........................The Vault K Ravenshome.....??
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
......................./The Dark City:| This feels right to me
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.....................Gulliver's Heights|
.................Gulliver's Smallville |
.....................Gulliver's Heights|
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... | Gobin
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
.......................................... |
..................................Grove |
...................... The "millennium"|mages distract
......................... Grove District|mages distract
.................................. Grove /\ lake port
........................................ /~~\
....................................... /.~~~\
....................................../~~~~~\
..................................../~~~~~~.\
....................................\.~~~~~~/
......................................\.~~~~./
........................................\~~~./
.................................. Mere \.~/
............................................\/

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-24, 02:02 AM

I have decided we should talk about stations.

Just talking about the public transport, I figure that there would probably be about 34992 stations in Ishka. This would be split down into chunks, nine 'fast circle' stations (taking 45 minutes per complete cycle, and visiting district groups), each connecting to 18 more stations (a couple in each district, taking 1.5 hours per complete cycle), each connecting to two sets of 36 more stations (almost two on each level, one cycle going one way, and one going the other, meaning it takes a maximum of 1.5 hours to get anywhere you want), each connecting to 3 more stations (each level of each district is split into 15 sections, each station covers 5 of these, and it takes 15 minutes per complete cycle).

This means you could get pretty much anywhere in the city within four hours.

O.K, let's split the stations into first cycle, 2nd cycle, 3rd cycle/reverse 3rd cycle and 4th cycle. Remember, although there is only one first cycle, the other cycles are split up and are not connected to each other (just so no-one makes that mistake)

A first cycle station would have: one first cycle chamber, one 2nd cycle chamber, two 3rd cycle chambers and one 4th cycle chamber (even the biggest stations have to be responsible for local travel). The smaller the cycle, the larger the chamber, but not so large that it couldn't easily fill up in 5 minutes. I would have a fair amount of shops that use magical counting systems to speed up transactions.

A second cycle station would have: one 2nd cycle chamber, two 3rd cycle chambers, and one 4th cycle chamber. It would have only slightly less shops than a first cycle station.

A 3rd cycle station would have: two 3rd cycle chambers and one 4th cycle chambers. It would still have some shops, as there is a fair chance that a traveller may be using only 3rd cycle stations on their way.

A 4th cycle station would be almost akin to a bus stop, just a little box tucked away or even just in the street. It would, most likely, have no specialised shops around it.

The first cycle is, of course called the main line. Each of their secondary cycles could be: Black, White, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple. Most citizens would have good enough colour vision to tell those apart, especially if you put Red and Green far away from each other.

Beyond the nine secondary lines, I think it would simply be referred to by which station you switched cycles at, for instance: I took the main line to the Necropolis, the Black line to 'Upriver Necropolis', then changed to the tertiary line to go to 'Wombletown Grave' (16th level down), then I switched to the quandary line to get to section 5.

Also: I took the main line to the Market district, then switched straight to the tertiary line, and got off at 'The Quick Bend' (2nd level down). Didn't need to take the quandary line, Gordon was already there for me.

And so on, and so on. (I decided to put the 4th cycle as the quandary line as a bit of a laugh, if anyone objects, just say)

A map of the stations would rarely show all of them (that would just get confusing), instead, it would show a number of stations that usually have close ties, and a lot of people wanting to get between them. Travelling by station in Ishka is almost as confusing for a newcomer as just walking.

Now what we need to do is decide where each of the stations on the main cycle are (we know a few, but not all nine, and I don't think think mainline stations would be in the commons), and where the coloured lines go (secondary cycles). Once we've decided, I'll draw a tube/subway map-type thing.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-24, 08:40 AM

Just thinking, I would quite like to create a base class for Ishka. I thought about it for a while, and this is what I got so far. If you don't like it, just say, if you think it could be improved just say, and if you want me to write it up, just say.

City Specialist:
He would have minimum BAB progression (but see later), and all high saves (overpowered?). He would have a very long list of class skills, and many skill points, a very skill-oriented class. d6 hit die I imagine.

So far this doesn't seem very interesting or anything that other classes can't do, but the way that I thought I could make her suit Ishka is this: City Tricks. At every level (except for 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level where she gets abilities called Mind of the City, Body of the City, Soul of the City and One With the City) the City Specialist gains a city trick, a city related ability or bonus, power level akin to a feat. These allow for a huge amount of variation, and we would need at least forty I imagine. Some would have requirements (like being in a city, which shouldn't be a problem in this setting), and some could be taken several times. Examples include:

City-Fuelled Accuracy (Ex): Gain a +1 bonus to BAB when in an urban environment. This does count toward multiple attacks. You can take this City Trick at every odd level. Its effects stack. (If this seems overpowered, just remember that if you took this city trick at every odd level and a bonus feat every even level you would basically be a skilled, city-dependant fighter.)

City Fighter (Ex): Choose a fighter bonus feat that you meet the prerequisites for. You behave as if you had taken that feat when in an urban environment.

Gang Leader (Ex): You gain the leadership feat. You must have the Mind of the City class ability to take this City Trick.

Supernatural Savvy (Su): You can tell what time it is and what part of the city you are in at all times.

Street Savvy (Ex): Gain a +2 bonus on two of your class skills. You can take this City Trick multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this City Trick you must choose a different pair of skills.

Vermin Master (Su): 4 times per day + your intelligence modifier you can summon a feindish or celstial (or similar non-CR affecting template) dire rat or small monstrous spider. This ability functions as the spell Summon Monster I, except that it always lasts 1 round.

Whadya guys think? I will take the creation of a City Trick as a go-ahead.

Silverscale

2010-04-24, 11:16 AM

RE: City Specialist are you going for a kind of Urban Druid, a person who's just really familiar with Ishka, an Urban Fighter, what?

BLiZme.2

2010-04-24, 12:53 PM

proposed first cycle stations in geographic and temporal order
down to up river

market/steamworks(right on the border),
Customs and immigrations,
mitheral heights (great view),
primordium,
The Necropolis,
academy,
The Draconic Heritage Collective,
Smallville/Gulliver's Heights(in Gulliver's Heights, across the street from Smallville),
mages distract

also pleas explain the quandary stations better

equivalent description of the teliport line system

there is one main line with nine stops

to explain the entire secondary line requires 9 main stations and 153 secondary stations that is 17 secondary stations per main station for a total of 18 chambers per secondary line. Of all of these stops only one is in a main line station per line.

also there are 5670 tertiary stations 35 for each first and secondary station connecting a total of 36 locations per tertiary line with 72 stops per line 36 up and 36 down cycle. Of all of these locations only one is in a main line or secondary station per line, no tertiary line connects to both a primary and secondary line.

unclear at this time?
for my analysis i assume nine stops per line

My analisis of station pathing

{TABLE]Station Type|# of stations|# of lines|# of locations per line|total stops this line|line type|# stops per line|time between jumps |# minits per cycle|max wate |Max time to any other |in houres

1st cycle | 9| 1| 9|9| main line| 9| 5| 45| 40| 255| 4.25
2nd cycle| 153| 9| 18|162| color line| 18| 5| 90| 85| 340| 5.666666667
3rd per direction| 5670| 162| 36|5832| tertiary + |36| 5| 180| 90| 430| 7.166666667
3rd cycle total| 5670 | 324| 36|5832| tertiary - |36| 5| 180| 90| 430| 7.166666667
4th cycle |46656 |5832 |9|52488 |quandary |9 |5 |45| 40| 470| 7.833333333
total & formula| 52488=S total| 6166=SPL total |LPL=givin|TS=LPL*SPL |givin |#St=givin| MJ=MPC/#St| MPC=givin| MS=MP-MJ| MT=see below |MTH=MT/60
[/TABLE]

1st cycle MT= (the sum of the maximum times for each cycle level)
Nth cycle MT= (MT of n-1)+(max wate same line for n)

If we have a tiered network like this, which honestly makes the most sense, we will have an enormous amount of local stations and as you see the maximum wight time is more on the order of 8 hours not 4 it takes about 4 to get to the main line then about 4 to get back out to any branch mind you this is worst case scenario as in you have to go to the farthest station every time and don't use any short cuts like walking to a better station.

See also

The stations moving every five minutes would work fine too if the shops are more generic; the only reason I suggested the half-hour time was for the sake of regulars who might have specific places they like to visit while at the stations. In that case, the theoretic maximum number of stations per line for an equitable number of stops is 145, with the other possible numbers being 72, 36, 18, and 9 stations. The table below shows how long it would take a station to get back to its stop #1, or, in other words, how long it would take to ride a station in a full loop around its line. It also shows how many shiftward and homeward loops the stations will make in a day. That means that if you could shiftward and homeward loops together, it makes twice as many loops; this shows how many it makes in one direction.

{TABLE]
Stations |
Time |
Number of Loops
9 |
45 min. |
16
18 |
1.5 hr. |
8
36 |
3 hr. |
4
72 |
6 hr. |
2
145 |
12 hr. |
1[/table]

I strongly urge there to be a balanced number of stops, otherwise shift workers at the station, be it in the shops or workers of the stations themselves, wouldn't be able to get off at the same stop at the same time every day. That would be a very bad thing, because it might leave a worker stranded three districts away from where they live. For the sake of the employees, it really needs to be one of the above setups.

Given the time involved and the number of districts we have, I would suggest either 18 or 36 hours. That leaves a very reasonable amount of time for a loop, and lets hit it a fair number of districts, not to mention the number of loops per 13 hour period it would have. I imagine that there would also be express stations which only have 9 stops and just get you to the general area you want to go.

Admiral Squish

2010-04-24, 12:53 PM

I'd take a good long look at the urban soul PRC and steal a bunch of their ideas.

Silverscale

2010-04-24, 01:34 PM

proposed first cycle stations in geographic and temporal order
down to up river

market/steamworks(right on the border),
Customs and immigrations,
mitheral heights (great view),
primordium,
The Necropolis,
academy,
The Draconic Heritage Collective,
Smallville/Gulliver's Heights(in Gulliver's Heights, across the street from Smallville),
mages distract

also pleas explain the quandary stations better

equivalent description of the teliport line system

there is one main line with nine stops

to explain the entire secondary line requires 9 main stations and 153 secondary stations that is 17 secondary stations per main station for a total of 18 chambers per secondary line. Of all of these stops only one is in a main line station per line.

also there are 5670 tertiary stations 35 for each first and secondary station connecting a total of 36 locations per tertiary line with 72 stops per line 36 up and 36 down cycle. Of all of these locations only one is in a main line or secondary station per line, no tertiary line connects to both a primary and secondary line.

unclear at this time?
for my analysis i assume nine stops per line

My analisis of station pathing

"Station
Type" "# of
stations" "# of
lines" # of locations per line line type "# stops
per line" minits between jumps "# minits
per cycle" "max wate
same line" Max time to any other "in
houres"
1st cycle 9 1 9 main line 9 5 45 40 255 4.25
2nd cycle 153 9 18 color line 18 5 90 85 340 5 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************18 5 90 85 340 5******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************18 5 90 85 340 5******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************18 5 90 85 340 5******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************18 5 90 85 340 5******end_of_the_skype_highlighting.666666667
3rd per direction 5670 162 36 tertiary + 36 5 180 90 430 7.166666667
3rd cycle total 5670 324 36 tertiary - 36 5 180 90 430 7.166666667
4th cycle 46656 5832 9 quandary 9 5 45 40 470 7.833333333
total 52488 6166

If we have a tiered network like this, which honestly makes the most sense, we will have an enormous amount of local stations and as you see the maximum wight time is more on the order of 8 hours not 4 it takes about 4 to get to the main line then about 4 to get back out to any branch mind you this is worst case scenario as in you have to go to the farthest station every time and don't use any short cuts like walking to a better station.

You're making this more complicated then it needs to be. Think of any major Earth City, I always like to use NYC because it's the one I'm most familiar with. There are about 50-80 subway stops. Roughly 10-20% of which are "Express Stops" the rest of them are "Local Stops"

However if we expand that out to Ishka, we've only accounted for the stop on one layer of one district.

So therefore the Primary Line is the one that will very quickly take you from The Port District to The Lake District with only 7 stops in between.

The Secondary Line is the one that connects all the Major areas of the city together grouped by places that are roughly similar.

The Third Cycle Lines take you up and down layers within the same general area.

And the Fourth Cycle Lines are the local stops that take you ever few blocks on same layer.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-24, 02:16 PM

There are three stations for every quandary line, each visiting one of 15 sections in each area associated with a tertiary line (to clarify, these sections do not all have stops, only three).

The City Specialist is supposed to be a skilled all-rounder, with many different possible playing styles. Think factotum, but able to specialise. It would work for pretty much all urban adventurers. Other City Tricks I'm thinking of include 'Window Box', allowing them to grow enough food for one person in a very small space, and walking through walls type abilities for thieves and stuff.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-24, 03:47 PM

@ Silverscale your critiq has a lot of merit and part of what o was geting at was the huge time investment of the system i have an alternative speed up proposal in the spoiler below but yours may be less confusing. All that being said i get the impression you are missing what i was going for withe the chart, probably do to my poor formatting (sorry about the format i went back and fixed it), i was explaining the worst possible travel scenario for the Scribe's network. which start at tear 4 on the node the tier 3 station drops to, where the tire three is in tern the farthest from that lines tier 2, which is the one the main line sends. You then need to go around the main line to the one that sends to you down to the node that drops into the main line to get to the one that drops to the secondary line and then to the other side of the tertiary and then to the quandary that feeds to that one.

As far as i can tell your proposal has a similar problem assuming no walking then yo enter the Fourth Cycle Line at the worst possible point for your goal
visit every station in that forth circle set travel all the way from the bottom or top of the canyon to wherever the next line is ride it around until the next stop is where you got on then do all that in revers the other way yes odds are there was some shortcut you could have taken but that is also true of the other proposal and if there are stops every couple of blocks on every level then we get something like (((400miles*50 miles) / blocks per square mile (guess 10) )*40 levels)= 80000 blocks if half had stations thats 40000 only counting the cycle 4 stations. any way you slice it the network is MASSIVE.

given all that maybe i missed something in any event im not sure what you are describing in your cycle 2 description, which may change the game.

it also seams like you are assuming that all the stations are on the same level i know when i imagined it the leval 3 and 4 stations all bounced up down and all around in the general area of the associated level 2 station, going from the top of the canyon to the bottom, and in to matching caves where appropriate, you just improved it by making the tier 3 primarily vertical and the tier 4 horizontal. ie even expected you could find say a tier 4 feeding the wight line like 2 blocks from a tertiary feeding the green. in fact i expected their would be a wight line and a green line station in the millennium grove unless the green line joins the main line at say millennium grove main line station one of them

the more i think about it i don't think you are relay describing a different system it seems like you are just improving the description of the other system hear let me brake it down

tier one
Silver: Primary Line, Express Stops

"The Port District to The Lake District with only 7 stops in between"
Scribe:first cycle station ,main line

"'fast circle' stations (taking 45 minutes per complete cycle, and visiting district groups"

market/steamworks(right on the border),
Customs and immigrations,
mitheral heights (great view),
primordium,
The Necropolis,
academy,
The Draconic Heritage Collective,
Smallville/Gulliver's Heights(in Gulliver's Heights, across the street from Smallville),
mages distract

Same: can go to major locations almost any ware in city
Differant:7 vs 8 stops max

tier two
Silver: The Secondary Line

connects all the Major areas of the city together grouped by places that are roughly similar.
Scribe:second cycle station , color lines

"each connecting to 18 more stations (a couple in each district, taking 1.5 hours per complete cycle)" it has been mentiond the color lines ar grouped by function ex yelow scholastic,blue water, black darkness, green nature...

Same: grouped by theme
Differant:Silverscale may emphasize geographic distance more and i may have missed something.

tier three
Silver: The Third Cycle Lines

take you up and down layers within the same general area.
Scribe:third cycle station , (double station, New Name Mine )

two sets of 36 more stations (almost two on each level, one cycle going one way, and one going the other, meaning it takes a maximum of 1.5 hours to get anywhere you want)

Same: expanding out around lv 2 associated station.
Differant:Silverscale speechifies relationship as vertical connection.

tier four
Silver: Fourth Cycle Lines

are the local stops that take you ever few blocks on same layer
Scribe:forth cycle station, quandary

each connecting to 3 more stations (each level of each district is split into 15 sections, each station covers 5 of these, and it takes 15 minutes per complete cycle).

Same: expanding out around lv 3 associated station.
Differant:Silverscale speechifies relationship as horizontal connection increases density of stations clearer and more practical description of relative placmint.

Overall
Same:growing levals of spasivic travle hight leval theme grouping top level rapid transit
Differant: Silverscale has clearer breakdown of the bottom tears and a grater focus on geographic grouping arguably better tier 4

from what i can tell we are essentially in agreement about how this should work and if TheLonelyScribe agrees we could just assume that the tie 3 and 4 follow your suggestions. I admit though if i grossly misunderstood your tie two we may not be as close as i think.

speaking more or less universally about the teliportation net.

Personally i advocate having the stations never reverse. Because that makes scheduling very confusing especially given the time it takes to traverse the network. Furthermore if we go withe the stations are buildings module this compliments the multiple tiered network and allows any shops to remain physically fixed in location, which is what generally makes the most sense, while the teliportation chaises are simply moved from station to station.

there are three changes i would make
1. the quandary stations should have no cost it is just not worth it to hire someone to sit at each of those little busstops and count tickets but they still seem like a necessary part of the network.

2. many of the quandary stations would have independant news stands placed next to them like the kind in Newyork thay would sell magazins, gum sigerets, newspapers that sort of thing they would probably be lisinced to be right next to the station but other than that independent unlike the shops in the stations which are ether owned by the station or pay rent to the station.

applies only in the lonely scribe's layout

3. i dont have exact figurs but it is obvious that if you could get to the top of the network faster then you would be able to move around much faster so i suggest three alterations to the network itself.
1. i would Make the 18th stop, mesured from where it branches from its tier one or tire two root(this is the same stop in ether direction and taks 90
minutes to get to from there), on all of the tier 3 lines output into the same station on the main line IE Primordium Central Station.
2. Primordium Central Station should also be connection to each of the other stations on the main line by a set of eight express chaises one for each of the other stops on the main line. It would cost extra to ride the express chaises or by an express sticker for your pass, each express chaise would be about the size of a quandary chaise and would swap directly with its mate in the other main line station reducing max time between the main line to 10 minutes if you are willing to pay. People riding express always have there pass checked carefully but quickly.
3. lastly there should be two quandary lines running counter to each other like the tertiary lines and sharing there locations scatted through out Galdren and depositind one pair of stops in primordium sentral station.
all of this adds up to Primordium Central being probably the most confusing place in Ishka if not the multiverse.

Sorry for casting Wall of text all the time i just have a lot to say.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-24, 04:05 PM

O.K. It seems that you clarified some stuff that was already there, and added in some new stuff that made a lot of sense. Sliverscale, I believe, was simplifying and clarifying the stuff I said (I had, from the beginning, meant for the whole vertical-horizontal thing). I put in the numbers, Silverscale interpreted them.

You've got the right idea, and perhaps it would be good to have 9 Quadrary stops as you suggested (changed the name, as quandary already means something, specifically: confusing). I think that is in order.

Do you mind if I tidy up your grammar and spelling, and then we can set it as the official station network compendium?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-24, 04:06 PM

By the way, eight hours and a bit isn't bad for an area THE SIZE OF A STATE!

BLiZme.2

2010-04-24, 04:22 PM

Clean ahead and i liked the pun from the beginning as they are vary confusing, just imagine if you got one wrong. Quaternary means by four if we want it to match tertiary. Also a quandary is more of a riddle or a puzzle.

Also what do you think about not reversing the flow and my other suggestions?
I can cross my state in four and it is much bigger but that's being smart which i assumed i wasn't in the example case, also in a car, so ya is OK i was just saying,

also there are only 46332 tier for stations if we take my Primordium Central Station ideas, it would have 172 more lines and a total 325 more charages for a total of 176 lines and 330 charges all in one building. all changing every 5 minutes.

Silverscale

2010-04-24, 05:32 PM

I don't think there should be any one station that is connected to every single line, even Grand Central Station in Manhatten isn't connected to all the various lines that run throughout NYC......most of them but not all. That being said; Yes Primordium Central Station, which by the way should be on the Material Plane with a Gate to the pocket dimension that houses the district itself, is going to be the largest single station and possibly most confusing place in the multiverse, except the Elemental Plane of Chaos.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-24, 06:49 PM

I get it now you mean a hub and spoke grid,where the spokes are rings, not a ring with radials, where the radials are also rings. that dose make a lot of sense i dont know if any changes beyond my sugjestid 3 are nesisary to get that kind of efficiency at least if you use the express lines to the rest of the main line or if connecting the tertiaries to one part of the primary is enough but it seams like it.

Time stops at Grand Central
(http://current.com/technology/88830919_time-stops-at-grand-central.htm)Time stop+extend + widen+ epic archmage with mastery of shaping.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-24, 08:07 PM

i only said the tier 3 lines were connection the tier two and four lines are not except the ones that run out of the station as there main conection and ther is only one of each of those.

any idea of how Primordium Central Station is laid out all i can think of is there is a large clock and holomap in the middle of a bid cubic atrium and the express lines ar all off in a large side room with multiple ticket check in gates and turnstile out gates of various sizes. also should fare be higher for large creatures? i think that maybe all the tertiary carriages are kept separate from the other (main line, color line and the primordium local tier 4 carriages) so people who don't want to figure out the tertiarys don't have to. Maybe they are all on ground level and all the tertiarys are stacked around the sides of the atrium. the express gallery would be on the first flour to as would the gate to the Primordium. Should that gate be the main gate to the primordium or should it be somewhere else. Primordium Central Station seems as good a place as any and better than most.

it may look somthing like this

Key
where
% represent large ramps going up to the next level on the ground or first level and open space on odd levels

* represent noting on ground or even levals but represent large ramps going up to the next level on even levels.

+ represent banks of tier three lines with one numbered ticket collection path allowing accesses to both the up and down lines whit all of the ups to the right upon entering and all downs to the left. On the first flour these are banks of shops of various descriptions with many souvenirs and conveniences like rat on a stick stands, news stands ect on the uper flores there is a slot for a small stall shop resesed into the wall every third line or so.

1 1
1 1 represents the main line stop in Primordium Central Station

2 2
2 2 represents the color line station that feeds straight off of the primordium

4 represents the local tier four line off of Primordium Central

P P
P P represents the main line express terminal with its eight shortcut carriages.

((^)) represents the main doors out to the material plane where the Primordim was originally located in the oldest part of the city

((X)) represents the main gate to Teh Primordium

&&&
&H&
&&& represents the huge clock and holomao which sits on a large pillar the
map is at maximum extension and shows the whole city withe the main line marked as colored dots corresponding to the lines that station it feeds. the holomap sits on top of the clock which has four faces ole lined up with each wall. warped around the base of the pillar is the grand central information kiosk and ticket sails station.

g galidrin line stop right is up left is down from the perspective of someone entering the station.

#represent the open flour of the atrium

______ , | and - represent the stations outer walls

G on the first flour each one represents a gate large enough for the easy passage of a huge creature from the various elemental and other plains the city has major extensions on. otherwise see for levels higher than ground

___________________________
|++P P#1 1#((X))#2 2# 4#+++|
|+*P P#1 1#####2 2###%*+|
|+%################%+|
|G* ################ *G|
|+%################%+|
|G *######&&&#######* G|
|+%######&H&####### %+|
|G *######&&&#######* G|
|+%################%+|
|G*################* G|
|+%*%*##########*%*%+|
|+ +G++##g####g##++ G+ +|
-------------((^))------------|

the whole station is built to be easy to navigate for small to large creatures and is not very difficult for tiny and huge creatures. note huge creatures can only fit on the main and color line carriages. a gargantuan creature can fit through ether of the gates with out magical aid but can not fit most anywhere else except the atrium.
also there are several stands that will cast shrink person and shrink monster on a passenger for a modest fee half standard cost for min caster level actual caster level +1 GP per actual CL, caster level (1d4)d4.

also

normal Main line

_________________
|#33 ##1 1##2 2#|
|#####1 1##2 2#|
|P ###########|
|$ ####&&#### $|
|$ ####&&#### $|
|$ ########## $|
|$ ########## $|
|$ #######4 ##$|
--------(^)---------

normal tier 2

&&
&& ticket sails and information

33 local tier three lines right(from the perspective of someone entering the station) carriage is up left is down
______________
|#33 #2 2##4#|
|####2 2####|
|$ ########$|
|$ ###&&###$|
|$ ###&&###$|
|$ ########$|
|$ ########$|
------(^)-------

normal tier 3 (shops added because i forgot the first time through)
________
|# 33#4#|
|######|
|## & ##|
|$ ####$|
|$ ####$|
----(^)---

normal tier 4

$ independent news stand
S posted station map listing the other tier four stations on this line this stations tier three line and color line as well as the main line.
___
|4S|__
|##|$|
---

Silverscale

2010-04-24, 09:47 PM

If I've interpreted your drawings correctly then yes that's exactly what I'm talking about. The only difference between Primordium Central Station and the other 8 Central Stations on the Primary Line, is that it's connected to more than one Secondary Line.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 12:53 AM

Mot exactly correct the Central station is also connected to major thoroughfares on the elemental plains and such. Also the other primary's are not connected to all the tertiary as opposed to only the one they feed main station though i guess that second bit is optional it dose decreas minimum path distance though.
essentially Primordium station is tier 0 and has a main connection to one and from another tier 1 just like a tier one feeds one and receives another tier one. but the tier 0 has a dedicated one to tone to every tier one and then the Primordium is also connected to all the tier three stations and the others are not
i was just lazy and used + to represent both shops on the first level (with lines above in Primordium station only) and (just shops everywhere else). So i guess all the others + could be represented by $ and the 4th tier $ is just different fluff wise(edited to reflect) like i suggested earlier.

unless you were being imprecise in your agreement and implying all teh above which is cool.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 02:24 AM

OK, time for the Ultimate Station Writeup! (I'm even gonna say where the secondary stations go!)

Stations are building containing chambers that teleport between them. They are similar to Subways and Tubes, except for the fact that the order of stations need not make any geographical sense. Most stations are surrounded by snack stands and news shops.

List of Districts

Academy
The Art Community
Aquarane
The Collected Colleges
Customs and Immigrations
The Dark City
The Draconic Heritage Collective
Ether
Everdark (stations only dimly lit)
Gobin
The Groves
Gulliver's Heights/Smallville (usually too small for the inhabitants, small ones welcome)
Hedon
The Mage's District
The Market District
Mere
Mithral Heights
The Necropolis
The Port District
Primordium (all lines lead to primordium)
Ravenshome (rules temporarily relaxed in the station)
Redmere
The Republic of Ishka
Stadel
Terradome
Temple District
Ungul

(left out Commons and Steamworks because they are not geographically distinct) (left out Sunset Islands and the vault because you don't use a station to go there)

No. of Districts: 27
No. of Main Line Stops: 9 (0.3 recurring per district) (1 line)
No. of Secondary Line Stops: 162 (6 per district) (9 lines) (18 stops per line)
No. of Tertiary Line Stops: 11664 (both ways) (432 per district, 216 each way) (324 lines) (36 stops per line)
No. of Quandary Line Stops: 46656 (1728 per district) (5832 lines) (9 stops per line)

Main Line Stops: Market (Brown), Customs and Immigrations (Yellow), Mithral Heights (Purple), Primordium (White), The Necropolis (Black), Academy (Blue), The Draconic Heritage Collective (Green), Smallville/Gulliver's Heights (Red), Mage's District (Orange)

Secondary Lines: Secondary lines only have 17 stations here. That is because the 18th station is always the Primordium.

White Line Stops:
Primordium: Central and Upriver,
Temple District Top, Upriver, Downriver, Upright, Bottom, Upleft
Ether: Gate 1, Gate 2
One each of: Mere, The Groves, DHC, Customs & Immigrations, The Groves
Two each of: The Mithral Heights

Black Line Stops:
Necropolis: Top, Upriver, Upleft, Upright
Everdark: Bottom, Downriver, Upleft
The Dark City: Top, Downriver
Various residential: 4 stations
One each of: Ravenshome, The Academy, Mage's District, DHC

Brown Line Stops:
The Market District: Top, Upleft, Upright
Terradome: Gate 1
Stadel: Downriver, Upriver
Steamworks: 2 stations
Various residential: 2 stations
One each of: The Mithral Tower, The Port District, Hedon, Mage's District, Customs and Immigrations, DHC

Red Line Stops:
Smallville/Gulliver's Heights: Upriver, Downriver, Top
Redmere: Gate 1, Gate 2
Gobin: Upriver, Upleft
Steamworks: 2 stations
Various residential: 2 stations
One each of: Ungul, The Groves, DHC, Stadel, The Republic of Ishka, Everdark

Yellow Line Stops:
Customs and Immigrations: Main Enterance
The Collected Colleges: Top, Downriver, Upriver, Upleft
The Republic of Ishka: Bottom, Upriver, Upleft, Upright
Steamworks:2 stations
Various residential: 3 stations
One each of: The Mithral Tower, The Port District, Hedon, Temple District

Orange Line Stops:
Mage's District: Top, Upleft, Upright, Upriver, Downriver
Hedon: Bottom, Upleft, Upright, Upriver, Downriver
The Art Community: Top, Upleft, Upright, Downriver
One each of: Mere, The Academy, DHC

Green Line Stops:
The DHC: Upleft, Upright, Top, Downriver
The Groves: Upleft, Top, Upriver, Downriver
Ungul: Top, Bottom, Upriver, Downriver
Various residential: 3 stations
One each of: Hedon, Smallville/Gulliver's Heights, Gobin, Temple District

Blue Line Stops:
The Academy: Upleft, Upright, Upriver, Downriver, Top, Bottom
Ravenshome: Top border, Bottom border, Upriver border, Downriver border
Aquarane: Gate 1, Gate 2
One each of: Mage's District, Mere, The Port District, The DHC, The Collected Colleges

Purple Line Stops:
The Mithral Tower: Top, Bottom, Middle, Airport
Mere: Upriver, Downriver, Upright, Upleft
The Port District: Top, Upright, Upriver
One each of: The Academy, DHC, The Art Community, Mage's District, Customs and Immigrations, The Market District

Chambers teleport around their respective cycles every 5 mins.
The Main Line takes 45 mins to complete a cycle. A Secondary Line takes 90 mins to complete a cycle. A Tertiary Line: 180 mins (but, because of the reverse version you can get anywhere in 90 mins). A Quandary Line: 45 mins.

Chambers on a secondary line do not connect to other secondary lines except for trough the primary line, just as tertiary lines do not connect to other tertiary lines (except for their reverse counter parts), and quandary lines do not connect to other quandary lines.

Although the Main Line and the Secondary Lines pay no heed to geography, Tertiary lines go up and down through layers (40 layers, 36 stops) and Quandary lines go around the area where the tertiary line takes you.

The maximum amount of time that it takes to get from any one point in the city to another is eight hours, about half of your average creature's waking day. However, most people work close to their homes, at least station-wise, so the longest anyone ever travels to work is usually 3 hours (usually not that long, but it happens).

A Main Line station will have one Main Line chamber, one Secondary Line chamber, one Tertiary Line chamber and one Quandary Line chamber, and will look somewhat like this from above:
_________________
|#33 ##1 1##2 2#|
|#####1 1##2 2#|
|P ###########|
|$ ####&&#### $|
|$ ####&&#### $|
|$ ########## $|
|$ ########## $|
|$ #######4 ##$|
--------(^)---------

Where (^) is an entrance, $ is a shop (for news and rat-on-a-stick), 1 is a Main Line Chamber, 2 is a Secondary Line Chamber, 3 is a Tertiary Line chamber, 4 is a Quandary Line chamber, & is ticket sales and information, and # is empty floor space.

Secondary Line Station:
______________
|#33 #2 2##4#|
|####2 2####|
|$ ########$|
|$ ###&&###$|
|$ ###&&###$|
|$ ########$|
|$ ########$|
------(^)-------

Tertiary Line Station:
_________
|# 33#4#|
|######|
|## & ##|
|$ ####$|
|$ ####$|
----(^)---

Quandary Line Station (where S is a station map):
___
|4S|__
|##|$|

Tickets cost:
OMG GUYZ!!1! How much do tickets cost? We need: day pass, week pass, month pass, year pass. Discounts for children and seniors? Or is there too much trouble with shapeshifters and such (and undead in perfect 'health' claiming to be seniors)

Owrtho

2010-04-25, 04:02 AM

That mostly looks good, but I'd note the Ravenshome station would actualy be just outside the district. Mainly because as stated before, things can't be built in Ravenshome. Any buildings or other such things just show up (or vanish) when no one is looking.

Also, while building things is not believed to be against the rules (at least not that anyone has found), the problem exists that in order to build something numerous other rules would be broken (which could range from perceived littering if materials are left at the site, to vandalism for any magical marks that might be made, to destroying buildings to make room, as well as any number of other rules). Due to this no one has ever actually managed to construct something in Ravenshome (most either give up after getting a mark and try leaving before it gets to big, or try to finish and vanish, with their work being undone and things changed back to how they were before).

Owrtho

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 06:43 AM

Actually, I was thinking that the stations would be one of the things that just 'turned up' in Ravenshome. It's not like the ravens would ban movement, and remember, a district is a very large place (about the size of a normal city) so just walking is out of the question.

If you feel strongly that there wouldn't be stations in Ravenshome we could just put some in the elemental air district. I had just thought that there wouldn't be much space to actually put the stations, and (for the sake of evenly divided and regular numbers) left it out.

By the way, am I the only one who slips into pronouncing Ravenshome raven-shome rather than ravens-home? I can imagine such a distorting effect could happen over time, unless there is a Rule about saying it right.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 08:02 AM

this looks prey good so far just a couple of nit picks
1 considering the size of the regions and the level detail of put in and number of stations (153) on the 2nt tier, many regions are going to have multiple stations in them. As are all the relay big steam-works even if we don't list them explicitly.

2. The wight line needs some major work. Only the station in Primordium central should be dedicated to the Primordium as the teliport network should be limited to the material plain and Primordium central has the main gate to the Primordium because primordium central is-int technically in the Primordium as much as it is the main gate. If the Temple district is across the river from the necropolis obviously at least one of those stops can't exist, as it would be in the wrong district for its name. Unless that were true for historic reasons. ie necropolis expansion.

3. in my opinion more than one color line could servase a major district just like you have several stops for the primordium and temple district maby each district color line has one main station and several minor stations poe servased district. and any semirelated line could only have one station in the tangential region and all of those stations are located in the same complex

kind of like thisware H is an express terminal (same extra ticket as the express terminals in Primordium central) to this regions color line's main station.
B and A meen this terminal is asosiated with another color line and whic ones match up.

a and b are the Quandarys tor A and B.

_________________
|#33 ##2 2# 4#H#|
|#####2 2#####|
|############|
|2 B###&&###2 A|
|2 2###&&###2 2|
|############|
|3########## 3|
|B##b####a## A|
--------(^)--------

or like this if they share the tertiary and quandary.
_________________
|#33 ##2 2# 4#H#|
|#####2 2#####|
|############|
|2 B###&&###2 A|
|2 2###&&###2 2|
|############|
|$ ##########$|
|$ $$######$$ $|
--------(^)--------

4.you forgot the bottom
___
|4S|__
|##|$|
---

as to ravin home i dont think there would be a second or main line station in Ravenhome unless the station is older then the district. I just dont see the Ravens inserting a station into the network, (they don't exert power outside there domain). Further unless they expanded around it they would never steal an existing one. though once they had one they would have no qualms about moving it. Though there is no question there are tertiary and quandary stations just maybe not a primary/secondary or the district has its own network of only tertiary and quandary otherwise you could just leave the district via teliporter.

as to pricing that an interesting question we want a price all but the porist can afford and major employers can hand out like candy but that a low level independent adventurer would not just scoff at. Lets try day pass 1sp, week pass 5sp, month pass 15sp, yearly pass 10gp, small passengers receive a 10% discount, incorporeal or tiny and smaller passengers get a 50% discount, large passengers pay double, gargantuan and colossal passengers by passes at quadruple (and still need to be shrunk to ride) unless they can shape change at will to another size then they just pay double. I think senior discount is 15% applied after size modifications if you are living and are in your old or older age category (or 5% for undead over 200 years or were formerly seniors) each ticket booth has a chart and if your species is-int on the chart you can send a letter to the station authority and receive a refund on twice your discount.

i miss type Ravinholm like that. ha ha iv been forgetting the s the whole time ha ha.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 08:16 AM

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're getting at. If you want to change the lines, just write out your version so I can understand what you're saying better. I also don't quite get what all your As and Bs and express chambers are.

The Main and Secondary Lines are supposed to be independent of geography, so I don't think it really matters where things are for them, if that's what you're getting at. They're really just positioned dependant on the kind of people who might want to be travelling on them.

The Quandary Line station was left open on purpose, it's more like a bus stop than an actual building.

Also, before anyone spoils all this by saying Ishka is too higgledy-piggledy for such an organised system, we can just say that the stations were built fairly recently, when Ishka had expanded as much as it was really going to on the material plain.

Also, I imagine Galdren has its own special system, so no need to worry about that.

Silverscale

2010-04-25, 10:13 AM

The only nitpick I have with the system as currently written is that NO Primary station should be connected to all Third Cycle Lines as that would mean that there are hundreds of Third Cycle Chambers in Primordium Central. It should be connected to ALL Secondary Lines as there are only nine of those.

Here is exactly what I think should be found in Primordium Central Station other than the shops, ticket booth, etc.
--One Tier 1 Chamber (As there are only 9 stops on the whole line it just runs in a continuous cycle)
--18 Tier 2 Chambers (9 Lines cycling "Forward", 9 Lines cycling in "Reverse")
--Two Tier 3 Chambers (One cycling up the layers {when it gets to the top of the canyon, it cycles straight to the bottom to start the cycle over}. One cycling down the layers {when it gets to the bottom of the canyon, it cycles straight to the top to start the cycle over}
--Two Tier 4 Chambers (Similar to the way the Tier 3 work only this time cycling "left-right" and "right-left"

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 12:54 PM

In response to Silverscale, if we have everything with a reverse line then that kind of mandates a large revision of numbers (not the most vital ones, thankfully, but a lot of numbers nevertheless).

Also, I had some ideas for currency, tell me what you think. (This, of course, wouldn't be a universal currency, just a fairly common one)

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Penny, 1/2 of a cp
Penny, one cp
Tuppence, two cp
Thruppence, three cp
Dollar, one sp
Half a Crown/a Pound, 5 sp (sometimes called a Pound because it is worth a pound of Pennies)
Crown, 1 gp
Half a Fortune, 50 gp
Fortune, 1 pp

Example of Notation: 1f, 50cr, 1£, 1$, 3p and 2r

(as you can see, halves and double units are not used in notation, except for Half-Crowns, which are marked as pounds)

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 01:23 PM

on the lines

White Line Stops(rich, faith, government): Primordium Central(Primordium gate only), Temple District Top, Temple District Upriver, Temple District Downriver, Temple District Upright, Temple District Bottom, Ether (gate only), (The Mithral Heights, Mere, The Groves, DHC, Customs & Immigrations, The Groves)one station each (total 7 lone)

Black Line Stops(Darkness undead ?magic?): Necropolis(several stations), Everdark(several stations), The Dark City(several stations),various residential (several stations)
(Ravenshome, The Academy, Mage's District, DHC)one station each (total 4 lone)

Brown Line Stops(economic): The Market District(several stations), Terradome(gate only), Stadel(several stations),steam-works(several stations),various residential (several stations)
(The Mithral Tower, The Port District, Hedon, Mage's District, Customs and Immigrations, DHC, The Dark City)one station each (total 8 lone)

Red Line Stops(fire, close non humans, residential): Smallville/Gulliver's Heights(several stations), Redmere(gate only), Gobin(several stations), steam-works(several stations),various residential (several stations)
(Ungul, The Groves, DHC, Stadel, The Republic of Ishka, Everdark)one station each (total 7 lone)

Yellow Line Stops(city support, residential): Customs and Immigrations(One Stop??), The Collected Colleges(several stations), The Republic of Ishka(several stations??),steam-works(several stations),various residential (several stations)
(The Mithral Tower, The Port District, Hedon, Temple District)one station each (total 4-6 lone)

Orange Line Stops(Magic, entertainment): Mage's District(several stations), Hedon(several stations), The Art Community(several stations)
(Mere, The Academy, DHC)one station each (total 3 lone)

Green Line Stops(radically nonhuman, nature ?magic?): The DHC(several stations), The Groves(several stations), Ungul(several stations),various residential (several stations)
(?Mere?, Hedon, Smallville/Gulliver's Heights, Gobin, Temple District)one station each (total 5 lone)

Blue Line Stops(water, magic, education): The Academy(several stations), Ravenshome(???), Aquarane(gate only)
(Mage's District, Mere, The Port District, The DHC, The Collected Colleges)one station each (total 6-7 lone)

Purple Line Stops(shipping, wealth): The Mithral Tower(several stations), Mere(several stations), The Port District(several stations)
The Academy, DHC, The Art Community, Mage's District, Customs and (Immigrations, The Market District)one station each (total 6 lone)

the ones marked (several stations) are split ruffly evenly within there various lines
the ones marked (gate only) only have one stop of that kind in that line, with a gate to that planer district in the station.
the ones marked (one station each) means that that line has one and only one station to that district and one of the stations where that district is marked as (several stations) has multiple lines feeding it and looks like those multe line stations look like this

B and A mean the tier two lines assosiated with the other lines that only tangentialy serve that station ie have on stop in that district
_________________
|#33 ##2 2# 4#H#|
|#####2 2#####|
|############|
|B B###&&###A A|
|B B###&&###A A|
|############|
|$ ##########$|
|$ $$######$$ $|
--------(^)--------
[SPOILER]

where i am from bus stops have windbreak walls on all sides and a doorles doorway on one of the long sides, but I live where its cold and buss's take a long time to re reach stops

i agree about Galidrin and the recent addition model solves many problems

Silverscale's suggestion makes a lot of sense i think we should go with that, with 1 minor change the Primordium station should also house the main gate to the Primordium. as to the other color lines that means they are connected to there primary line stop and the Primordium station except the Wight line which is only connected to the Primordium

What do you guys think of my idea of crossover stations i mean mitheral heights should be connected to the Primordium and the art community but nether of those fit well with each other.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 01:53 PM

about currency i think Ishka sees so much interplaner travle and non standard locations that they would actual want a very orderly native momentary system. so we could just use the on out of the SRD now i am OK whit these changes i just think they make spending money more work a bad idea in my opinion though the fluff is nice and the numbers are round. also the pound should also be called and actually be an electrum piece.

as to redoing the numbers i can recalculate them on any sufficiently well described network so that's no issue (i cant start till next week Friday at the earliest though:smallfrown:). Plus the more regular the network the easier the calculation and what Silverscale proposes is extremely regular:smallbiggrin:.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 01:54 PM

Your suggestions for the secondary lines make a lot of sense, and fit in with the general chaotic nature of Ishka. Editing in Progress.

(on currency, my main reasoning is that we need a wide variety of values because of the hugely spread out wealth in Ishka. Just sayin')

Edit: Editing Done

BRC

2010-04-25, 02:03 PM

I've always imagined Ishka as, at least partially, using Paper money. Though this could still work with the cp/sp/gp/pp system.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 02:29 PM

I've always imagined Ishka as, at least partially, using Paper money. Though this could still work with the cp/sp/gp/pp system.

Note that I have not specified the physical form of the units. It's quite easy to adapt normal costs into this system, as it includes values equal to cp/sp/gp/pp. The reason I put midpoints and such in is because there is such a spread of wealth in Ishka that I can see people having use for a wide variety of coins almost everywhere in the city. I imagine that the actual physical form of money varies from district to district, but most shops will accept any currency of the appropriate value. Also, I've always thought that people would have use for coins of value less than cp, even in non-city campaign settings.

I changed the names because I can never imagine any society naming its currency so sensibly as it is in core D&D, especially not the hodgepodge of cultures that Ishka is.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 02:49 PM

I like BRC's suggestion about paper money but i think it wouldn't be government issued it would be bank script like in 17-1800s America banks would issue notes redeemable for currency at that bank to people who payed for it essentially you buy script from the bank and they give hard money to whoever turns it in. Scrupulous banks would only issue what they could reasonably reimburse and invest {edit}frugally, irresponsible{edit} banks well... but then MI would be on them like flies on well you know. You could make a good living buying script for slightly less than market value and then ruining it to the banks saving the other person the time.

Also we need to take a serious look at the income of the average Ishkan. In a normal D&D setting common peasant farmers are described in the DMG as make something like 1sp a year after food shelter and before buying shoos clothe ect or the raw material to make them yourself. these are the numbers on a skilled professional from the PHB
{TABLE]skill difficulty| skill DC | preform | craft or profession
guaranteed |0| 0 | 0.6

take 10 no negatives |10 |1d10cp a day= 0.33 GP a week | 5 GP a week

normal main 1st lv| 15 |1d10sp a day= 3.3 GP a week| 7.5 GP a week

doable at lv 1 taking 10 |20| 3d10sp a day= 99 GP a week| 10 GP a week

doable at lv 5 taking 10 |25| 1d6gp a day= 21 GP a week |12.5 GP a week

doable at lv 10 taking 10| 30| 3d6gp a day= 63 GP a week|15 GP a week

[/TABLE]
i think these numbers seem problematic given the lifestyle we seem to describe in the average Ishkan like Gerald from TheLonelyScribe's story
imean he is making like 7.5gp a week with his +5/6 in his money making skills any input?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 03:22 PM

That... is a very good point. I think the answer lies in rearranging the profession skill. What seems like a better idea would be to have the values in dollars rather than crowns. If anyone can be bothered to come up with a more interesting edit, go ahead.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-25, 03:26 PM

If the whole dollars-instead-of-crowns-for-profession seems like a good idea (and take into account that work can sometimes be unreliable), I would say that a week pass for the stations would cost 1$. A day pass would cost tuppence, a month pass would cost 4$, and a year pass would cost 4 crowns.

If you want pence instead of crowns, divide the above prices by ten (except for the day pass, which would presumably now cost 1r.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 03:59 PM

Not realy the direction i was going but it would work. Also after your example I, as an American i can say for certain that the Penny, Tuppence, Thruppence,
pound(but not Crown, go fig) and Dollar destroy my sense of verisimilitude and are just plain confusing to my ear.
also Fortune as a currency name just seems hokey to me.

I love the Ratsin and Double-Ratsin though.

the Ha'Penny sounds to much like a heyPenny, which is slightly more than a normal penny(if you are a collector), to me.

and yes i also think partial CP would be in use as well even if they were just cut CP this happened in medieval coinage a lot in the old west to it really only stooped with the advent of vending machines.

how about
Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Rat, 1/2 of a cp(half a rat)
Rat, one cp
Dire(rat), two cp(its called a dire rat but no on calls it that they just say dire)
pack, three cp(A pack is a group of rats we could also try horde or mischief.)
Sentinel, one sp(because i like the name Silver Sentinel)
Half a Crown/a Pound, 5 sp (sometimes called a Pound because it is worth a pound of Pennies)
Crown, 1 gp(gold Crowns Nuf said)
Half a Hoard, 50 gp
Hoard, 1 pp(Has two dragons on it i think you can get it from hear)

also if we go with hord just imagin be ing hired by both of the dragon saints and being promist one of there whole Hoards. :biggrin:

Renrik

2010-04-25, 05:41 PM

The rat-based lower coins should be nicknames, not their real names. Their real names might as well be pence or something of that nature. Sentinels and Crowns sound alright, but maybe Crown doesn't make sense in a city that isn't a monarchy. The Crown has little cultural significance. Also, i think a platinum is 10 gp, not 100.

Who in Ishka has the right to issue currency? The city government? Local governments? Individual banks in a free banking system? I imagine they (whoever it is) could use a team of elite economancers to tell them how to much money should be printed avoid too much inflation.

BRC

2010-04-25, 06:24 PM

The printing of money is handled by Banks, however it's regulated by MI's Division 3 (Which is, if you remember that thing I posted awhile back, in charge of financial crime).

The way it works is that a Bank can apply for a license to print currency. A Bank that receives such a license stands to make alot of money and attract many new clients.

Anyway, when a Bank applies for a License, Division 3 clerks and economancers go through the bank's holdings and assets, then give a report to the City Council, who determines how much money they are going to let the bank print. These licenses last two years, after which they must be renewed, though the investigations for renewal are rarely as through unless the bank in question is trying to greatly increase their license or is under suspicion of being involved with something shady/ being not quite as stable as it appears.
Division 3 loves to use these checkups to investigate the assets of suspected alliance members, leading to a phenomenon known as the "Bi-annual shuffle", where people with money tied up in shady dealings will temporarily pull their money from a big bank about to be reviewed and put it elsewhere, usually in one of many small, less trustworthy banks. Then, after the review is over, getting as much money as they can back from these smaller banks, and putting it back in the main banks.

These Licenses are the source of a lot of political dealings in Ishka. Banks have collapsed because their licenses were not renewed, and some have gotten very wealthy by securing large licenses. Of course, some banks have gotten licenses that were bigger than they could handle, and collapsed in a pit of debt.

Licenses are such a big deal for Banks because they make room for loads of investment. You see, the currency is essentially a piece of paper that says "If you present this paper to such and such bank, they need to give you this much money". However, few people actually do that. Unless a Bank is rumored to be unstable, most people just exchange banknotes for goods and services. If a Bank prints a note worth 50gp, it can take quite some time before somebody actually collects on that.

So, if a Bank receives a license to print, say, 500,000GP worth of notes, that means that they essentially have 500,000gp to spend, which they will only have to pay back a little at a time at no interest. Mostly, this money is used for investment.
Now, losing a License is a very big deal because it can lead to bank runs. Even if a Bank loses it's license, it is still technically required to honor any notes it printed, and the process of a license being renewed sends the message that the bank is still doing well. However, if a banks license is revoked, that sends the message that the bank is in trouble, and even if it isn't, it soon will be, as people who hold that bank's notes panic and try to cash them in quickly. Nobody is obligated to accept a bank's notes except the bank that issued them, and this isn't a problem so long as people think they can always go redeem the note, or spend it with somebody who thinks that. But when word gets out a bank is in trouble, that bank's notes get an expiration date. They will only hold value so long as the bank exists, once it collapses and goes into bankruptcy, it's notes are worthless.

This also leads to an odd paradox, sometimes the council will give large licenses to failing banks. You see, if a Bank hasn't printed all the money allowed by it's license when it gets acquired by another bank, the license transfers to that other bank. Meaning, a failing bank with alot of unused license is a valuable asset for other banks, because once the bank is acquired by a more stable bank, people stop worrying about their notes losing value and stop trying to cash it in. Theoretically, the new bank is responsible for all the money the old bank printed, but provided it's clear that they COULD pay, chances are, they wont have to.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-25, 11:41 PM

The crown name could be anachronistic or how about gold Gates (i like alliteration)(Plus it sounds very land of opportunity), they have gates made of gold..

my point is if we use actual names not GP ect. we should make them up not crib them from history

hear goes again

and all the partial cp coins are unofficial and made by cutting a kink

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Rat, 1/2 of a cp(half a rat)
copper Klink(Rat), one cp(as in the noise made by steam rattling a pipe)
copper Canyon (Dire{rat}), two cp(Dire for dire rat)(representing the canyon)
silver Spark(pack), three cp(representing the fire fighters)(A pack is a group of rats)
silver Sentinel, one sp(representing gate keepers)
Electrum eye, 5 sp (representing the MI)
Gold Gate, 1 gp(representing the stations and other plains of the city)
platinum pick, 50 gp(representing the ?delvers?)// the parallel to the street-builders who dig and maintain the tuneless.
platinum Pillar, 1 pp(representing the streatbuilders)

the coins should come in two sizes one large and one small
small coins Klink, Spark,pick (if the eye is gold)
large coins Canyon,Sentinel,eye,Gate,Pillar

i think platinum changes with edition but my gut says your right for 3.x

@BRC Dead on

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-26, 01:11 AM

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Rat, 1/2 of a cp(half a rat)
copper Klink(Rat), one cp(as in the noise made by steam rattling a pipe)
copper Canyon (Dire{rat}), two cp(Dire for dire rat)(representing the canyon)
silver Spark(pack), three cp(representing the fire fighters)(A pack is a group of rats)
silver Sentinel, one sp(representing gate keepers)
Electrum eye, 5 sp (representing the MI)
Gold Gate, 1 gp(representing the stations and other plains of the city)
platinum pick, 50 gp(representing the ?delvers?)// the parallel to the street-builders who dig and maintain the tuneless.
platinum Pillar, 1 pp(representing the streatbuilders)

I'm afraid I don't like the alliteration, it makes it sound a little silly, and a little stealing from real life adds familiarity, somewhere for the players to understand the world. Also, I don't think any culture has ever named it's coins after aspects of their country, they get into the appearance and design, but not the names. Most currency names make no sense, or only a little. Also, Rat would get a bit confused with Ratsin. Slang also usually makes no apparent sense, like 'bucks' for dollars or 'quid' for pounds. How about this:

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Penny, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Penny (Fund), one cp
Tuppence (Germ), two cp
Thruppnece (Shoot), three cp
Dollar (Jake), one sp
Half a Gate, 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 50 gp
Pillar (King), 1 pp

jagadaishio

2010-04-26, 08:03 AM

I'm afraid I don't like the alliteration, it makes it sound a little silly, and a little stealing from real life adds familiarity, somewhere for the players to understand the world. Also, I don't think any culture has ever named it's coins after aspects of their country, they get into the appearance and design, but not the names. Most currency names make no sense, or only a little. Also, Rat would get a bit confused with Ratsin. Slang also usually makes no apparent sense, like 'bucks' for dollars or 'quid' for pounds. How about this:

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Penny, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Penny (Fund), one cp
Tuppence (Germ), two cp
Thruppnece (Shoot), three cp
Dollar (Jake), one sp
Half a Gate, 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 50 gp
Pillar (King), 1 pp

I like the names and the nicknames of all the currency types save the half-gate. I imagine that it would be called a fiver in common parlance unless you have a niftier nickname for it. I wonder how often pillars and poppins would be issued in actual coin form. I imagine that they would be novelties to most, of little practical value except in mass amounts for shady deals; after all, without a bank name tied to them, they would be harder to trace. In other words, I expect they would be used in non-note form about as often as the American 50 and 100.

Side note, did you mean that the poppin is 5 gp? Because as written, five pillars makes a poppin. It seems that they would have a swapped order if that was the case.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-26, 09:32 AM

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-26, 12:04 PM

i think he is assuming a PP is 100GP
and i still think we should change the official names so they don't match real money (it breaks the fantasy for me, imagine a campaign set in New-York and all the prices being in pounds and pence not dollars an cents), other than that if they sound ok i am in. How about a jump for the electrum piece? all the nicknames and denominatins are ok though.
also are we agreed about the fractional cp coins being cut up cp?

I am assuming pp is 100gp. If your campaign runs it as 10gp, just change the value of a Poppin to 5 gp.

Several reasons why I think it's alright to have the currency use real names (apart from the benefits already listed):

Humans are still called humans aren't they? Doors are doors, stones are stones, and before you say that those are all things that retain the exact same meaning in both worlds, note the common editing of the meaning of words, sometimes even the outright misuse of them, eg wands (they used to just be bits of wood). There are many other examples that I've noticed over the years, but I can't remember any of them right now.

Also, currency names from real life are well suited for everyday use. I don't think so many countries would use the word 'dollar' for their currency if there wasn't something inherently suitable about it. Also, your whole 'New York' thing doesn't apply, people have expectations of a place in America. In fantasy they truly expect the unexpected. Also, using something from real life helps avoid sounding silly, and makes the whole thing feel more real.

On a slightly different note, I think that we're a bit past the medieval period, but, for the sake of being stubbornly anachronistic let's have Ha'Pennies be cut up Pennies, but Ratsins and Double-Ratsins be coins of their own.

On the subject of notation with the new system: If a customer spent 18 Kings, a Poppin, 4 Ponce, 3 Jake, Thruppence and three Ratsin (one Ratsin coin and one Double-Ratsin coin) on one of my products, and asked for a receipt, I would put '18pi, 54g (or 9g, depending on your interpretation of the Poppin), 3$, 3p and 3r' on the receipt.

BRC

2010-04-26, 01:01 PM

I imagine those are different amounts, but the denominations stay with the standard cp/sp/gp/pp.
For example, if I spent a Poppin, the receipt wouldn't read "One poppin" but "50gp".

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-26, 01:47 PM

BRC

2010-04-26, 02:14 PM

But why would they write cp etc. if none of their coins were actually called that, if they were often paid in currency other than coins (bills), and if there were silver coins made out of copper/silver/gold/platinum that had different values? I'm afraid it makes little sense. It's fine for us to use the standard cp/sp/gp/pp notation, but in the actual world they would definitely use something else.

Because the pieces of currency represent those things

For example, if I bought somthing that was $15 and I paid for it with a $5 and a $10, my receipt wouldn't read "$5 and $10" it would read "$15", the same as if I paid with 3 $5 bills.
Or Cents, you've got a penny (one cent) a nickle (five) a dime (10) and a quarter (25), but they all represent different amounts of the currency "Cents", despite the fact that none of them are called that.

I imagine that once upon a time, Ishkans used standard DnD Currency, before moving on to banknotes and different denominations, but all those still represent that same currency.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-26, 02:42 PM

Because the pieces of currency represent those things

For example, if I bought somthing that was $15 and I paid for it with a $5 and a $10, my receipt wouldn't read "$5 and $10" it would read "$15", the same as if I paid with 3 $5 bills.
Or Cents, you've got a penny (one cent) a nickle (five) a dime (10) and a quarter (25), but they all represent different amounts of the currency "Cents", despite the fact that none of them are called that.

I imagine that once upon a time, Ishkans used standard DnD Currency, before moving on to banknotes and different denominations, but all those still represent that same currency.

The way I see it, the coins don't represent those ancient values, it represents pillars, gates, dollars, pennies and ratsin. Note that you don't use poppins, fivers, thruppence etc. when recording the money. I completely agree with you on that front, and that's why I felt the need to clarify how things were noted. (to clarify to a greater extent, replace your pp/gp/sp/cp with p/g/$/p/r and we have exactly the same ideas of what should be going on).

Take this example as some of the reasoning behind my thought process when designing the way notation works: Although, a long time ago (but more recent than the beginning of Ishka to the 'modern' day), America used old English money, it has now changed to dollars and cents, and calls it those things, not guineas, pounds and pence. The same way, even if Ishka did once use DnD currency (which I have always disliked and found unlikely) it would not retain the vestiges of that system, except for the approximate values of their coins.

Think about it, if that was the way it worked, in England we would write '£100' as 'a copper helmet' or something. Ancient, physical-form dependant currencies do not endure in any form except sometimes in the separation in values.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-26, 03:42 PM

I wasn't really enjoying writing my past story, and have decided to replace it with tidbits and interesting objects that are unlikely to spark a debate. They will only occasionally contain rules. Take this example:

Doctor Worthinton and his assistant, Strithe:

Several centuries ago, when the station system was a pipedream and Ishka had only recently become a large influence on other planes, Dr. Worthington lived in small outpost. The half-elf was obsessed with two things: magical security and inter-planar travel. This is an extract from a recording his paranoid security system picked up upon the day of his 'death':

DW: Strithe, I think I have finally found the secret of inter-planar travel and teleportation without reliance on the astral plane! It allows for such precise transport- observe! I will teleport across the room, into that red outline, using this apparatus here!

S: It appears to be a wooden box with a floating bicycle in it, sir.

DW: Yes, of course, but note these runes on the side. They will allow for rather incredible processes to occur.

S: I look forward to an example greatly.

DW: Then stand back!

There are noises of the Doctor getting into the apparatus and peddling on the bicycle. The drone of magical noise starts to fill the room, but then something goes wrong. The noise becomes warped, and Worthinton lets out a scream. As he slips into the void between planes, he leaves that last utterance behind, and, to this day, the sound still lingers as a terrible, unwavering tone. Strithe is shocked, and calls out for his tutor, but, alas, it is too late. Worthinton is gone.

After this terrible event, Strithe dedicated his life to perfecting Dr. Worthinton's technique. Eventually, at the age of 112, he finished his work. His method, officially called the 'Worthinton-Strithe Method of Independent Teleportation', is still used in stations today. Recently, it has been discovered that the vestige of Worthinton lingers on as a vestige, stuck in the gap between planes, granting powers of teleportation, watchfulness, and the eternal scream to those kind enough to bind with him. (to be stated out on the weekend)

Erutaron

2010-04-26, 03:50 PM

As to currency: It doesn't quite matter for me as I already have a monetary system my players like that I use in all my campaigns. You of course don't have to use it, but I thought I would throw it out there for you to look at.

It's based on the wages of certain professions with others made up or based on the cost of certain goods

1/4cp = Quarter-Piece = (the kings initials)
1/2cp = Half-Piece = (arrow wrapped in cloth)
1cp = Piece = (crossed arrows)
2cp = Two-Piece = (trumpet)
5cp = Squire = (shield)
1sp = Sailor = (boat)
5sp = Keeper = wage of an innkeeper/cost of a room (mug of ale)
1gp = Soldat = starting wage of a soldier (sword or mace depending on where it was pressed)
5gp = Guilder = wage of a guild member (hammer and anvil)
10gp = Lance
20gp = Shield
50gp = Greatsword
1pp (100gp) = Master = wage of a guild master (hammer and anvil with chain around the edge)
2pp (200gp)= Mercy = wage of an average mercenary
1pb (10pp) = Dragon = known for their wealth

on the reverse they all have written value and date they were pressed

Aside from currency: I have a lot of time on my hands today and am thinking of doing some crunch and fluff for some notable NPC's.

Probably starting with the two dragons, and maybe a merchant or two that PC's can run into

BLiZme.2

2010-04-26, 06:18 PM

On a slightly different note, I think that we're a bit past the medieval period, but, for the sake of being stubbornly anachronistic let's have Ha'Pennies be cut up Pennies, but Ratsins and Double-Ratsins be coins of their own.

This makes no sense to me ether all the tiny currencyes should be cut up or none should. Having a cut currency larger then a real coin only happens regularly when the values involved are huge and the value is a multiple of 8 usually 2 or 4 and, there is not already a coin in that size. None of this is true of the smaller copper coins halving and quartering were at least semi common historically (http://www.jstor.org/stable/503609?cookieSet=1) and cutting to eights is not at all unheard of.

I real think using modern curacy names is the lazy way out and if we try we can do much much better but if everyone else disagrees i will drop my objection. On your notation one of those p's should be some other symbol P and p is to confusing and easy to misread.
Also fractional cp should be a fraction following the cp but before the symbol like this 1p/7g/2$/4p/2 2/5r.

50cr4t3s

2010-04-26, 07:05 PM

DAMN. I'm gone for less than a month and this thing explodes.
I hope you people are happy, I'm gonna be stuck here forever reading all of this.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-26, 07:30 PM

if you stat he dragons i figure they both nave 20 levels in a main caster class each.
As a general rule i hate vesages this one i make an exception for this one. Very nice story. you do rapid appealing characterization very well.

Erutaron

2010-04-26, 07:36 PM

if you stat he dragons i figure they both nave 20 levels in a main caster class each.

Yeah that sounds fair enough...

any ideas are welcome, especially names!

BLiZme.2

2010-04-26, 07:59 PM

how about GaL'EstratZesh'ashtnaris for the gold one he goes by GaL,Estrat in more casual conversation and GaL to his friends
and ROro'ketos for the red one and Roar for short.

is pronunciation clear i am not terribly familiar with official notation but i can explain what i men by example ROro'ketos RO=big r sound fololowed by the o in OH. then the the ro in row, ket sounds like kent without the n, then the os in moss

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-27, 01:14 AM

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 06:39 AM

O.K, I think I was being a little stubborn earlier. Let's see if we can sort this thing out once and for all, and make everyone happy:

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Fund, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Caution's Fund (Fund), one cp
Two-Fund (Germ), two cp
Silver Fund (Jack), one sp
Electrum Fiveling (Fiver), 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 50 gp (or whatever 1/2 a pp is)
Pillar (King), 1 pp

Notation: 1 Pillar + 1 Poppin + 2 Gates + 1 Electrum Fiveling + 1 Silver Fund + 1 Two-Fund + 1 Caution's Fund + 1 Ha'Fund + 1 Double-Ratsin + 1 Ratsin becomes 1p, 52(or 7)g, 6s, 3c and 3r

Therefore, for notation you can just take the 'p' of the ends of cp/sp/gp/pp and add r for Ratsin.

Let's not have cut-up coins be popular, and official Ha'Funds and Ratsins are coins of their own, but you average merchant or shop owner will trade in anything as long as they can ascertain its value.

I like what you've got here and I also like (for Ishka) going with 1PP=100GP. If you think about it, in a regular game of D&D you're talking about buying and selling single items at a time. How often do you go to the shop and say "Yes I need 12 Vorpal Swords, 16 suits of Adimantine Armor, and 8 rings of Universal Elemental Resistance." You don't, but in Ishka we not only have to account for a person buying things for themselves but also the merchant who comes in with a collosal shipment of goods. "Thank you for your 1000pound shipment of diamonds, here's 10,000 platinum. {Insert sound of merchant being buried by a pile of coins, followed by screams of pain} Quick someone send for a Healer"

For this reason, I think we should have a denomination higher than Platinum (or a Pillar/King) I know this is also the reason we have paper money but think of the sheer volume of coinage needed to back up all that money, and in a city/state like Ishka we are talking about a CR@P TON of money.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-27, 07:57 AM

Notation: 1 Pillar + 1 Poppin + 2 Gates + 1 Electrum Fiveling + 1 Silver Fund + 1 Two-Fund + 1 Caution's Fund + 1 Ha'Fund + 1 Double-Ratsin + 1 Ratsin becomes 1p, 52(or 7)g, 6s, 3c and 3r

i don't understand the part like this(52(or 7)g,) pleas elaborate. otherwise looks good.

don't worry im stubborn to. :smallwink: The whole remove the p thing is brilliant and explains away the so so choices in a couple of the names very nice.(also helps support the idea that Ishka used to have standard D&D currency this would be a small holdover).
and i relay like the idea that there are official Ha'Funds and Ratsins but there are also cut up Funds in circulation as the same denomination. I would think those came first, as the currency evolved and then the "real" ones were minted, to fill that role.

100gp =1pp ok by me

4th ed has a very eligant solution to this problem they have a rare gem called an astral dimond serv as the base coin for there high level and super massive value economy. it has a value of something very big like 10,000pp or such and weights in at less than a cp. this is to my mind a very elegant solution the issue of high volume cash transfers as even most magic items can be bought wit a minimum of coins changing hands using these and pp.
the most coins are used the most coins used to buy something is about coins=~ (5,000pp+the number of diamonds needed to get within 5,000pp(cost/10,000pp)). Thus the closer you get to a multiple of 10,000pp the easier change becomes.

if you wanted them to be more realistic official ad currency could be set into adimantium coins with the diamonds value plus the adimantiums value (if i remember right adimantium is 1000gp per pound so that's less than 62.5 gp of adamant per diamond if a coin weighs one ounce) "stamped" on the face of the coin along with the date and the gems official appraisals id (all ap have a record at Division 3 headquarters). Also that lets us have various values of ad with an official value attached so no haggling plus i wold think it would be stranded practice to round down when buying an unset diamond and up when selling one possibly enforced by law(as in only the mint buys or sells non coin ad or they take a percent of the take on any sail and require both party's to know its official appraisal) so people don't go around defacing the coins in an attempt to make money.

Also i suggest there be official gold and platinum bars as currency worth 100 of there respective coins to help fill the gap. this is the only problem i can think of where 100g=1p is a problem as it is needlessly redundant and cumbersome.

so lets try

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Fund, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Caution's Fund (Fund), one cp
Two-Fund (Germ), two cp
Silver Fund (Jack), one sp
Electrum Fiveling (Fiver), 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 5 gp
?Plain? (King), 1 pp=10g
Gold bar (?gold Pillar?)100 gp,1gb/1gi
platinum bar(?platinum Pillar?)1000gp,1gi/1pi
astral diamond (?void diamond?,?diamond piece?) 10,000pp,1ad,1dp {edit}(note 1ad notation means the standard 10,000pp even if a givin atral dimond coin is worth more(moderatly probable) or even less){/edit}

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 09:56 AM

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Fund, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Caution's Fund (Fund), one cp
Two-Fund (Germ), two cp
Silver Fund (Jack), one sp
Electrum Fiveling (Fiver), 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 5 gp
Plain (King), 1 pp
Gold bar (?gold Pillar?)100 gp,1gb/1gi
platinum bar(?platinum Pillar?)1000gp,1gi/1pi
astral diamond (?void diamond?,?diamond piece?) 10,000pp,1ad,1dp
This gets my stamp of approval :smallbiggrin:

Renrik

2010-04-27, 10:49 AM

Anything! Let's just move on to something other than money!

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 11:15 AM

Anything! Let's just move on to something other than money!
Yes it can get frusterating to go over and over the same topic but sometimes you just have to wade through it until a satisfactory answer is found.

At the moment I can't think of anything we haven't covered but I'm at work so I can't really devote much brain power right now when I should be keeping an eye on my students.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-27, 11:25 AM

Dito Silverscale about being taped out and not having much brain power on any thing but i think were done with money. Any new ideas would be welcome

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-27, 01:02 PM

Alllllllrighty then! Although I can't think of anything greatly important right now that we need to discuss, and have no access to my 3.5 rulebooks, I have decided to write this diversion which just happens to contain a whole bunch of transactions.

The Package:

Lord Greathe was getting dressed. He could technically have gotten his servants to do it for him, but he took a lot of pride over how he looked, and thought it was a job that the poor weren't up to. Besides, he didn't want them getting to close to his arm. The super-realistic construct looked at the only part of him that he was ashamed of. From his left wrist upwards his arm was warped into a strong but ugly wood-like appendage. It had resulted from being exposed to a piece of powerful magic, part curse, part blessing, part prophesy. But, instead of pondering on it further, Greathe just pulled his silken undershirt over it.

After he had finished putting his clothes on, silk robes covered by a gold-embroidered waistcoat, he moved over to his dressing table. Taking out a small pot of glue, he carefully covered his (literally) porcelain face in a layer of gold leaf that would have flaked off by the next morning. He then carefully slipped his many rings of protection, charisma, wisdom and cleanliness. He suddenly felt a whole lot better, and put on a fine mithral chain coat before slipping on a pair of velvet shoes to go outside.

It was later in the day, the sun shining upon one of the floating platforms surrounding the Mithral Tower. Greathe was sitting outside a cafe with one of his friends. As the waiter came by Greathe slipped 6 gates and a fiveling into his palm, and asked for the Pegasus-heart filled pastries and a pot of elemental tea. He and his friend were talking about the state of the current economy when an angelic (literally, a half angel) beggar hobbled past. The creature's no longer blessed eyes focused on the porcelain noble, and he limped up.

'Sir, just a fund will feed me and my family for a day. My parents are half-angels half-devils, and we cannot earn a wage of our own, sir...'

Greathe turned round slowly. Then, quick as lightning, he grabbed the disgraced angel by its dirty collar. The creature started to choke, and its eyes widened in fear and surprise when it noticed the hinges in the Lord's hand.

'Look, begging in this district is illegal, and if you don't scurry off soon I'll call The Falcons. I hear they're experimenting with a new method of execution, binding you up then dropping you off the top of the tower and hoping you get eaten by birds before you land on some unfortunate person below. You understand?'

'P-perfectly s-sir'

'Well then, take a Jack and be off.'

The beggar was stunned, but soon scurried off, cradling the coin. For Greathe it was the lowest value coin he had on him, but for the beggar it was the largest amount of money it had owned for 17 months.

Turning back to his friend, the Lord remarked, 'Only way to deal with them, you know. Carrot and stick kind of thing. Will you come for a walk with me, I have a package to pick up.'

The two walked along the market road. There were salespeople everywhere, selling only the finest goods. Delicate half-orcs and gruff elves were seen, looking over the almost (but not completely, of course) priceless pieces of art, applauding and rejecting. The Lord's friend was distracted by a wonderful platinum statue of some obscure saint, priced at 1ad, but Greathe dragged him on. There were far more important things to do.

They met a man in the centre of the main square. He was holding a small, black box, with runic carvings all over it. The thing was heavy, but for some reason Greathe had not brought a servant along to carry it. It changed hands for just a Ponce, this man was obviously just a messenger.

Greathe then, without explanation to his friend, who was thoroughly confused, held the box above his head. He shouted into the square:

'Ladies and Gentlemen of Ishka, behold the might of the Alliance!'

The box started to collapse in on itself, turning into a small, silvery, spider-like construct held in the Lord's hands. It had blades for mandibles and legs. As soon as it came into conciousness, it landed on Greathe's head. It sunk its knives deep into his porcelain skull, and destroyed the complex magical systems within. The Lord immediately died, and the diminutive assassin continued on it's quest for death, jumping from head to head, killing as it went, until it found a suitable grill and scurried into the sewers.

D'you like how I never really detailed anyone other than Greathe (and referred to the beggar as 'it') in order to show his self-obsessed nature?

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 01:56 PM

So did he just knowingly pay for and accept his own death as a sort of suicide bomber? or did he think he was getting something else and part of the magic of the box possesed him and made him activate the construct?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-27, 02:46 PM

Basically, you interpret it yourself, but my idea was that he knew what it was, but thought it would spare him for some reason. He was supposed to let it off quietly in some guy's house, but he wanted grandeur, and the construct killed him for his disobedience.

The Alliance is much to subtle to allow such public shouting of their name.

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 04:53 PM

So I'm assuming that Greathe has the Living Construct subtype and as you said is well made. My question is how did a living construct become nobility?

BLiZme.2

2010-04-27, 06:34 PM

some eccentric Nobel commission an here.
alternately whatever changes his arm more slowly and delicately changed his body.

hey i found a question how dose any one become a noble in Ishka? ie who makes you a noble and who if anyone can unnoble you. this helps set the stage for rich merchant buying into the true nobility ala corps bride. also do nobles have any special rights and duty's besides what there wealth brings and the respect of other nobles and there hangers on. My guess is it depends on how you and your line became a noble. ie some are just fancy peacocks. while others hereditary own major properties (i can imagine a duke of the stations, he runs what is in effect the transit corporation as a business answerable to the council and needing to turn a profit to its stock holders) and others. and some are appointed for there services and there children are not ennobled.
speaking of stock holders dose Ishka have a stock market or are all such bruising contracts done in smokey rooms and bers like when the stock market was considered gambling (relay look it up)?
And in any event we need something like lloyds of london they will insure against anything for a price.

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 07:23 PM

Actually this brings up an interesting question. How many Constructs and Living Constructs do we have in Ishka. We have companies like Fabrege Construct Company who make a number of high quality constructs a year. We have a small army of Golden Warriors chilling in a cave......lets figure out some numbers here.

Also if we have Living Constructs, which it certainly seems we do, then are they Warforged or some other variation of Living Construct?

{EDIT} Ninja'd! now we have two interesting questions to ponder over.{/EDIT}

BLiZme.2

2010-04-27, 10:37 PM

Most should be warforged (with out all the were all gizald vest, PTSd, angst and oh no there cant be more of us) but there is room for others like the pipe serpents from a while ago (as week as non living sentient constructs as a minority of this minority). also i think most if not all Fabrege's work is non sentient and even most of that is merely decorative like i little perfect dancing ballerina construct that cant think but will dance to any tune.

Silverscale

2010-04-27, 11:21 PM

So if they're not all angsty PTS Ebberon Campaign setting Warforged, are they different enough to make a new entry for, or is it mostly just a matter of personality?

BLiZme.2

2010-04-28, 12:32 AM

Imagine if the war-forged in eberon were accepted inthere society and anyone who wanted a child could comision a warforged if they could prove thay honistly whantid one in that capacity and would treat it like family. Others (humans first and the wild for two, humans first especially if the "parent" is human) may still have an issue but what ever.
same crunch new background fluff. personality wise the only changes would be caused by there environment.

Admiral Squish

2010-04-28, 12:39 AM

Now, how does ishka do the warforged issue? It could be interesting to have warforged as property.

About to throw out a number of ideas:

Streetbuilders commissioned the first 'intelligent' warforged. they needed more manpower, but they couldn't supplement it with just mindless machines, the intuition and understanding is important. So, warforged were a solution. It was only after that the designs began to disseminate into large factory use, and eventually, into wealthy households (May require a special warforged type to show 'pretty' ones. I.E, Mithril and marble on mahogany flesh, more expressive faces...).

Perhaps, they are quite owned. the vast majority of warforged are either owned by factories, the streetbuilders, or private households. But an ever-increasing number of warforged are becoming self-owned. Either buying themselves from their owners, being released from their ownership by the soft-hearted ones, or simply outliving their prior owners.

We end up with three groups of warforged. those who want to join society as 'normal', those who want to free the rest of their 'brothers', and those who want to establish themselves as the masters. The first sort are by far most common. The second are less common, but still more common than the third. Their methods and motivations can vary from 'forged to 'forged. Some may try to buy their brothers out of slavery. Some may try to forcibly gain control of the creations forges. Still others will just go about their lives.

Warforged as property also adds the licensing aspect to this. Perhaps the warforged sigil on the forehead works like a brand. When freed, the sigil could either be mechanically changed by getting it filled in, or sculpted into a new shape, or it could just be a magically built-in feature, the sigil changing automatically depending on who owns it.

Anyway, bunch of weird ideas, feel free to disregard.

Owrtho

2010-04-28, 01:12 AM

Don't forget the suited fire elementals for living constructs (even if they aren't really constructs).
As for warforged. First I suggest changing the name. Mainly as they aren't built for war. Not the best name, but perhaps Taskforged would work.

Also, I suggest there being two categories. There would be the majority of Taskforged which were made as living constructs, and then there would be the Streetforged.

Streetforged would be have been made as mindless constructs, but for some reason or other became living constructs. They're name comes from the fact that many have been made by exposure to freak magic accidents while performing tasks on the streets of Ishka. However, there are also those that have changed due to general prolonged exposure to the magic filled city and having the proper conditions (however most of these are much older constructs that were made before the major manufacturing companies). A streetforged would have slightly different stats from a taskforged as they would have been made as normal constructs usually for a specific job. As such they would be less well rounded and instead be specialized (likely having a few categories for general tasks and then some options in that from a Stat viewpoint).

Also, it might actually work better to swap taskforged and streetforged. Particularly if the first intentional ones were made for the streetbuilders (however for this post I'll stick with it the other way).

On the issue of ownership, I'd say that they wouldn't be officially owned. They would just be made with a contract to 'work' for the owner of the contract for some period of time that would have strict stipulations and offer little in the way of pay and benefits (supposedly to pay for the effort of making them). In actuality this would be little different from being owned (really just calling it by a better term, particularly as the contract would be transferable). The difference being that there is a time limit that they have to obey it. They also would be free to find other jobs and pursuits during the time, provided they didn't violate the contract or neglect their fork for the owner of said contract.
This would also likely lead to some of the more impatient Taskforged having Alliance ties due to having them make their 'employer' loose the contract somehow to gain freedom early. It would however usually come at the cost of aiding the alliance an amount of at least as much as was left on the contract, but the alliance would allow for lump sums and more drawn out payment (as well as freedom, as it might just be transporting the occasional box every few months, with a bonus for not knowing anything if the MI asks or helping a member hide or escape).

Owrtho

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-28, 01:15 AM

Good ideas, but, just to make an obvious point, in Ishka they wouldn't be called Warforged, as they were not forged for a war. Actually, I imagine that's what they call the terrible creatures that beat off the other country during that petty war long ago. Perhaps we ought to call 'Warforged' 'Workforged'. I think that would be good.

Also, I like the idea of Greathe being a Workforged who bought himself and slowly had himself reworked into his idea of a perfect human. The only part of him that couldn't be reworked was his arm, because of the powerful aura surrounding it of all types of magic. As you can probably guess, even after his death, Greathe will be an important character.

In fact, I imagine that, although the first were made by the Streetbuilders, Hedon quickly caught on, making the most beautiful things they could imagine (partially through illusion spells) and magically enchanting them to feel like a human.

Although Ishka is generally opposed to safety, there is always so much stuff going on, and outlawing Workforged as property would be just another job for the police and MI, making it not very worthwhile, especially as they are such a valuable workforce.

Owrtho

2010-04-28, 01:54 AM

Huh, workforged does seem better than taskforged. I still think though that while they would technically be illegal to own, it would be mostly a matter of terms as most would start off with contracts that would be about the same as being owned.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-28, 08:31 AM

Admiral Squish i like this much better plus we already know slavery is legal in ishka at least in some districts(Hedon,?Gobin?) so this works well as to the sigal i think they should stay unchanging and there owners documentation identify s them by it each is said to be unique and unchanging so that helps.

Owrtho i think that works much better then slavery they are all indentured servants this gives even the non devious ones the glimmer of hope because they are almost sure to outlive there contract barring an accident.

I also like street forged for the old "natural ones" and Workforged for the new "designed" ones.

Greathe like warfoged should be built that way not change to that his body should be representid by a set lvl 1xclusive of plaiting feets like in eberon (the eberon ones should also exist construct body guards ect)
so far we have
porcilan body: +to diplomacy, can ware armor, ???
fleshy body: +lots to diskise look living, can ware armor, +small to spot, search, listen.
my idea ? if one dose not exist in eberon a utilitarian 0% Arcanin spell failure chance plaiting option?

if no one else gets around to it i will stat these out on Sunday or Monday.

street forged could be representing as having had the spell awaken construct cast on them i think it is in Savage species or the epic level handbook.

Silverscale

2010-04-28, 10:03 AM

Ok so if we have Workforged and Awakened Constructs, etc then there must be at least one Creation Forge somewhere. Is it in one of the Steamworks, in the University District, in the Market District.......? Or are there more than one? I think for a city the size of Ishka there are probably multiple Creation Forges just as there are many different people who build constructs and golems, F.C.C. just happens to be the best in the city when it comes to high quality constructs.

BRC

2010-04-28, 10:20 AM

FCC sounds more like high-quality made-to-order constructs than mass-production.

The Creation Forges were designed by Cassandra, the Brass Saint, who built a working prototype, and then built the forge that created the Sleeping Army. Once the Sleeping Army had been built, the Forge was destroyed, but her prototype remained.

Later, when the Streetbuilders were stretched for manpower trying to build the Boulevard, they dug up Cassandra's old plans for a Creation forge. This wasn't as elaborate as the one that built the Sleeping army, but it was effective nonetheless.

Once Chief Engineer Marley was assassinated and the Boulevard was brought to a halt, the question of what to do with these constructs arose. Sentient constructs already existed in the city, though they had not been mass produced before. The Undead, seeing kinship with their fellow non-living sentients, campaigned hard for their freedom. Meanwhile, the city was falling apart due to Marley's focus on the Boulevard.

In the end, the next Chief Engineer, Arthur Tuftwistle, made an official decision. Workforged production would be stopped (It's expensive anyway), and the Workforged already created would work for the Streetbuilders until the city was brought back to pre-boulevard levels of stability, at which point they would be given half-wages for however long that took (not counting their time working on the Boulevard) and would become free citizens of Ishka. This repair work took 3 years, during which the Workforged more than earned their keep. In the end, Tuftwistle (Who was technically not obligated to do anything concerning the Workforged) kept his word and released them.

This led to a tradition in the city known as the Tuftwistle Contract. It's not official law, but it's widely used, and free constructs tend to come down hard on anybody who dosn't use it. The Tuftwistle Contract is that a newly created Workforged pays off the cost of their creation by working at half-wage for 3 years, during which their owner is required to keep them in repair and house them. After those 3 years, they are released.

Nowadays Workforged are not constantly produced. Several forges exist, but they are only used when somebody orders a Batch. The Streetbuilders, as a matter of policy, don't order new Batches, but they gladly hire any Workforged who have finished their Tuftwistle Contracts.

Silverscale

2010-04-28, 11:17 AM

BRC

2010-04-28, 11:31 AM

BRC, have I mentioned before that you're awesome!

This still leaves the question of Nobility. What is Nobility? How does one attain/maintain Nobility? Who can become a Noble? How does Nobility differ from say, being a council member?
Council Members are specific offices, chosen by the leaders of the various districts.

Nobility is a fuzzier concept in Ishka, largely the term Noble is used to refer to any sufficiently wealthy citizen, but there are some proper nobles. Certain districts, especially the commons, hand out fiefs to certain individuals. There is no real Serfdom, but the noble of an area is in charge of keeping up the local watch, alerting Streetbuilders to problems, collecting taxes, solving disputes, and generally running things. There are several types of Nobles, some are official titles, and some are just attached to people who fulfill the proper requirement.

Street Noble: Example Johnathan Reley, Duke of Cartwright Street. The type of noble described above, usually appointed by the city government, which also has the right to take the title away.
Forge Baron: Example Baron Grant Lordaline of Lordaline Textiles. A Forge Baron is an unofficial title given to anybody who owns a sufficiently large factory in the steamworks.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-28, 11:51 AM

First, I would like to say that I got ninja'd by owrtho, and actually like the term 'Taskforged' better, but, whatever, looks like we've already decided.

Points:
Presumably the price that a Workforged must pay to free themselves is equal to three years worth of their wage. Sounds about reasonable.

I think that the plating to look humanoid should be available to all Workforged, they don't have to be crafted that way, but it might take a good deal of money.

We still haven't figured out how much travel on the stations cost, and how to fix the profession skill so it makes more sense. Does everybody like my Gates-to-Jacks solution, or is there anything more complex anyone can think up?

if one dose not exist in eberon a utilitarian 0Arcanin spell ailur chanc one? Sorry, but what? I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying in that sentence at all. Something about a cantrip?

Finally, I imagine what a noble is varies all around the place. Sometimes it's hereditary, sometimes it's a vote, sometimes it's an official appointment, sometimes you buy your way to the title etc. etc. Greathe I imagine just wanted as much status as possible and bought his way into being a Lord.

Also, next instalment in The Package will probably come either today or tomorrow, but don't hold me to it.

BRC

2010-04-28, 11:55 AM

Silverscale

2010-04-28, 01:09 PM

We still haven't figured out how much travel on the stations cost, and how to fix the profession skill so it makes more sense. Does everybody like my Gates-to-Jacks solution, or is there anything more complex anyone can think up?I think we've decided to go with.....

Ratsin, 1/8 of a cp (so called because it is the price of your average rat-on-a-stick, a cleaned and de-furred one usually costs a double-Ratsin)
Double-Ratsin, 1/4 of a cp
Ha'Fund, 1/2 of a cp (half a penny)
Caution's Fund (Fund), one cp
Two-Fund (Germ), two cp
Silver Fund (Jack), one sp
Electrum Fiveling (Fiver), 5 sp (made from electrum)
Gate (Ponce), 1 gp
Poppin, 5 gp
?Plain? (King), 1 pp=10g
Gold bar (?gold Pillar?)100 gp,1gb/1gi
platinum bar(?platinum Pillar?)1000gp,1gi/1pi
astral diamond (?void diamond?,?diamond piece?) 10,000pp,1ad,1dpSo going along those lines
1 Ride costs a Fund
Day Pass costs a Germ
Week Pass costs a Jack
Month Pass costs 4 Jacks
Year Pass cost a Ponce

....or if you think that's too cheap then how about
1 Ride cost a Germ
Day Pass costs a Jack
Week Pass costs a Fiver
Month Pass costs a Poppin
Year Pass costs 5 Kings

....That seems a bit expensive to me so I'ld go with the first one.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-28, 01:48 PM

So going along those lines
1 Ride costs a Fund
Day Pass costs a Germ
Week Pass costs a Jack
Month Pass costs 4 Jacks
Year Pass cost a Ponce

Gets my vote of approval, if that amounts to anything - but the year pass seems a bit cheap compared to the rest. Maybe up it to 3 Ponce?

Silverscale

2010-04-28, 03:23 PM

Actually now that I look at it it should be 4 Pounce which would be the price of 10 months

Owrtho

2010-04-28, 03:52 PM

On the Tuftwistle Contract, I suggest that it be 3 years wages or the price of their construction, whichever is larger. This would mean that the person who commissioned them would be reimbursed eventually. Also they could if working a lower paying job go out and work extra jobs to pay it off faster. The main reason being that 3 years seems like it would be too short for most to much care about it. Particularly as it would be the first 3 years of their life when they're first learning things.

As for the Streetforged, they start off free already, as living constructs technically are free, and the owner of the construct has no contract for them to work for them.

Owrtho

BRC

2010-04-28, 03:55 PM

On the Tuftwistle Contract, I suggest that it be 3 years wages or the price of their construction, whichever is larger. This would mean that the person who commissioned them would be reimbursed eventually. Also they could if working a lower paying job go out and work extra jobs to pay it off faster. The main reason being that 3 years seems like it would be too short for most to much care about it. Particularly as it would be the first 3 years of their life when they're first learning things.

Except that 'forged don't need to eat or sleep, and they don't tire IIRC, so you could work them pretty much 24/7 for those first 3 years.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-28, 05:06 PM

sorry i must have forgotten to spell check that post i was groggy and dehydrated at the time.
The line should,and now dose say
"my idea ? if one dose not exist in eberon a utilitarian 0% Arcanin spell failure chance plaiting option?"

i don't like the idea of workforged changing there plaiting it would be like swamping body parts but i guess i could tolerate it i think it should be vary very expensive though and cost a feet if the plaiting change dose or your body rejects the change.

i agree with Silverscale
station tickets should be
1 Ride costs a Fund(a ride is not one entrance but one planed rout so you don't pay extra if your stated destination has some transfers to it)
Day Pass costs a Germ
Week Pass costs a Jack
Month Pass costs 4 Jacks
Year Pass cost 4 Ponce
but we should go withe something like my extra/discount system.

...
as to ravenshome i don't think there would be a second or main line station in Ravenhome unless the station is older then the district. I just don't see the Ravens inserting a station into the network, (they don't exert power outside there domain). Further unless they expanded around it they would never steal an existing one. though once they had one they would have no qualms about moving it. Though there is no question there are tertiary and quandary stations just maybe not a primary/secondary or the district has its own network of only tertiary and quandary otherwise you could just leave the district via teliporter.

... small passengers receive a 10% discount, incorporeal or tiny and smaller passengers get a 50% discount, large passengers pay double, gargantuan and colossal passengers by passes at quadruple (and still need to be shrunk to ride) unless they can shape change at will to another size then they just pay double. I think senior discount is 15% applied after size modifications if you are living and are in your old or older age category (or 5% for undead over 200 years or were formerly seniors) each ticket booth has a chart and if your species is-int on the chart you can send a letter to the station authority and receive a refund of twice your discount.

i left the Ravenshome bit in because we never answered that question and it seems important.

also are we agreed the cycle four lines are free but the three and up are not or are they all maned.

Owrtho

also
Indeed BRC is awesome.
i agree with every thing he has said about nobility and the workforged.
his ideas on nobility meshes nicely with my tentative example about the head of the stations running it as a government sponsored business.

Now dose anyone have dealings about my earlier question about an Ishkan stock market or are we just going with more old fashioned investment methods. Any city this side need business partnerships and associations.

also @ TheLonelyScribe you mentioned (back on page 30) you edited something about the second line stations could you point me to the edit i couldn't find it and forgot to ask.

Silverscale

2010-04-28, 09:10 PM

Now dose anyone have dealings about my earlier question about an Ishkan stock market or are we just going with more old fashioned investment methods. Any city this side need business partnerships and associations.I don't think we're talking anything as complex as the NYSE, but I do think Ishka has moved beyond simple backroom dealing. I don't know enough about the trading of stocks to give any real ideas here though.

Owrtho

2010-04-28, 09:24 PM

Except that 'forged don't need to eat or sleep, and they don't tire IIRC, so you could work them pretty much 24/7 for those first 3 years.

And as such the three years would usually be the larger amount. However that is more so for menial labor type jobs. If a wealthy noble or the like commissions a workforged to be a personal butler or assistant, they likely won't actually be doing much more work than if he had just hired someone. Also a shopkeeper might get one for extra help, but not want it to run the shop on its own.

I could also see them being used by some normal people as personal caretakers in old age, by saving up money while they're younger and then buying a workforged that could take care of them once they get too old to do so them self.

As for Ravenshome, I still think it wouldn't have any stations. For one thing, Ravenshome is likely one of the smallest districts. One could walk from one end to the other in less than 3 hours (if they don't break any rules on the way). It doesn't actually need stations for traveling within it. As for if it is expanding (which is something to be left up to the DM) it would likely just remove any stations it absorbed from the system, or they would just be unable to be left or entered during the time that they were in Ravenshome.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-28, 10:37 PM

Owrtho has a good point on the size of ravenshome. The stations are relay only a difficulty if the district is growing and if growth is slow then there is no real way to tell as an asside another reason why you couldn't tell if ravenshome is expanding would be because the ravens clean clear and maintain slightly beyond the bounds that they enforce the rules but this border of enforcement is fluid so it is hard to tell where the rules do and don't apply or when they do or don't i figure the gray aria would be no more than a block and the further out you go the more work you wold have to do and could not rely on the ravens for by way of metaphor they sweep there door step but ignore squirrels and rats on it most of the time. but they will usually hit them if they scratch on the door.
the retirement helper is a brilliant idea. And probably a good idea to because i think most construction contracts should be nontransferable so you cant inherit such a contract. I can think of one exception if a business bought a batch of workfroged as a business expense then they count as property of the business and go free if the business goes under or they go free if the business owner bought them as a personal purchase and then put them to work in his business then they go free on his death. ether way you need to treat your workforged well or they may ruin you one way or another(i smell an adventure hook). also this gives you a trade of in uses. for example taking a business construct home to do your dishes would at least technically illegal but if you sold your business you could list it as an asset on the other hand if you own it personally then you don't have the ability to sell them.

@Silverscale my impression was that way to but i wanted to know what others thought (we have so many sharp intuitive minds here) because this city is so massive and could easily have such an institution.
I think we should go with something like the original sock exchange used to be in that Ishkan law allows for you to own part of a company's assets and therefor profits but have little or no power in its management in exchange you are allowed to sell that portion without interference by your other partners while a normal partnership all party's have more control but the changing of hands of ownership requires mutual consent. Hind of but not relay like real life.
this could be coupled with an old style stock market where anyone who owned part of a company as described initially above could go and offer other people there stocks. basically such places used to be coffee houses and tavern where people know that if you were willing to by or sell stocks you could go there and look for a perspective buyer or seller and for a "small" "tip" the proprietor could help you find who you are looking for.Note similar and sometimes the same places often traded in commodities. Usually the deal was cut in the tavern and employees handled the coins or at least the goods.
There should be at bare minimum three 1 in MitheralHeights 1 in the marker or port district ether will do and 1 in Ravenshome why the last one you ask?
two reasons on who would double cross or lye to you there and two some very powerful and wealthy people have probably fled to the district over the years like alliance bigwigs who ratted out other members or politicians tired of assassination attempts or just a rich jerk who got trapped for mistreating people in the district or some such thing. Still this would be the smallest exchange.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-04-29, 01:12 AM

This sounds kind of weird, but I've always liked the idea of coffee houses in fantasy settings. I imagine, however, that chocolate is still mostly sold as a bitter, frothy drink. How much of this sort of stuff is there? Where does it come from? How much does it cost? We pretty much know they have tea, but do they have tobacco? Other drugs? Just something to ponder.

Silverscale

2010-04-29, 06:01 AM

I think with Ishka's connections to places all over the multiverse, they probably have a steady supply of any product a DM wants them to have at a reasonable price. If I remember correctly Arms and Equipment had a long list of spices, meats, grains, etc and included coffee at 50gp a pound. I've always thought that a bit high because at that price not even a king could afford to drink it very often. But this is Mideavl Europe that D&D is replicating and at that point coffee had to be transported all the way from India, without the use of anything nearly as convinient as an airship.

Silverscale

2010-04-29, 08:15 AM

As to the discounts/extra fees for Station Passes. To give discounts based on age, ie. Child/Senior discounts, you'ld have to have an enormous table for all the various races and race combinations telling you which was concidered a child/senior at what age. Therefore I think child/senior passes are out of the question. However discounts/extra fees based on size would be easy enough to manage and if there is a service that offers size reduction at a reasonable price that would allow passangers to get a ticket for a smaller size category. This brings up another question....if a person is traveling with their pet (In this example we're assuming a medium humanoid with a dog-like pet) are they required to pay extra for the pet?

As to how to manage the discount/extras just use the same Multiples used for other cases of size categories (1/2 for Small, X2 for Large, etc)

Silverscale

2010-04-29, 01:03 PM

Here is a list of all the Districts

Academy
The Art Community
Aquarane Elder Water Elemental
The Collected Colleges
The Commons Street Noble
Customs and Immigrations
The Dark City
The Draconic Heritage Collective Elder Dragon
Ether
Everdark
Gobin Hobgoblin Shogun
The Groves Elder Druid
Gulliver's Heights/Smallville
Hedon The Master and The Mistress
The Mage's District
The Market District
Mere
Mithral Heights
The Necropolis Graveborl The Uncaring
The Port District Guild Master
Primordium
Ravenshome
Redmere Elder Fire Elemental
The Republic of Ishka President, Vice President, Senator, etc
Stadel
Steamworks Forge Baron
Sunset Island
Terradome Elder Earth Elemental
Temple District High Priest
Ungul
The Vault The Warden
Can't remember the name but the district in the elemental plane of Air Elder Air Elemental

Let's decide what it means to be a "Noble" in each of these districts. I've inluded some of the idea's that have alredy been presented along with some of my own suggestions.

Sorry about the triple post I just have a few ideas rattling around in my head today.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-30, 01:38 AM

I think that you are probably right about the senior discount. A child discount is not something I would add even if we had a seniors one as you get a discount if you are small so children already get on that way. as to the 1/2 mode ect that seems like to much of a shift basically as you put it pixies ride free this way is in general more profitable there are so many more small passengers and if we did go with the main chart then it is the same for the allowed larger sizes.
Maybe you can only get a discount pass at a special office that has the master list and they have some sort of simple test as to your race. If you are an allfolk you should count as human or average for allfolk whatever longer and that solves many problems.

as to reduced size ticket prices i can see that for one journey prices where your receipt(or you by the casting withe the ticket, ether way you should not have the spell cast until you have your ticket and are ready to bored the casters cast it as you walk in) says you will be there with 5 minutes to spare with out growing but a normal long term pass should still cost the price for your size if you cant shrink your self at will and slightly more if you can because they want money and that way if you need or rely wnt to can ride at full size.

as to pets i think 1 tiny pet should be free but if you have something larger like a dog or want to bring multiple pets you could pay slightly less than the normal amount for a ticket to get a stamp on your pass or ticket that lets you have 3 tiny or smaller pets or one medium or a small and a tiny. any other pets cost the full fair(the stamp should look like a goat because they are often bought for use with your pack Goat).

as to district leaders i would have these these changes.
The Collected Colleges The Dean
The Commons Street Nobles
Customs and Immigrations the Secretary of immigration ( a council appointee)
The Dark City drow nobles
The Draconic Heritage Collective the cruciate Dragons the
Gulliver's Heights/
Smallville a different location and is officially a different district(than Gulliver's Heights) its just the heart and root of this is district is encircled by Gulliver's Heights.
Primordium (the council should anoint a "senishal of the prime"
Ravenshome the Ravens
Stadel the king
Steamworks The Forge Barons
Sunset Island compony owner

Erutaron

2010-04-30, 02:57 AM

Ishka Campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8403235) is now recruiting!!

Silverscale

2010-04-30, 07:57 AM

So if we add in BLiZme.2's suggestions then the list would look something like this

Academy
The Art Community Master Artisans
Aquarane Elder Water Elementals
Aerodyne Elder Air Elementals, Skyship Captains
The Collected Colleges The Dean
The Commons Street Nobles
Customs and Immigrations The Secretary of Immigration (appointed by the council
The Dark City Drow Nobles
The Draconic Heritage Collective Elder Dragon esp. The Two
Ether
Everdark Vampire Lords??????
Gobin Hobgoblin Shoguns
The Groves Elder Druids, The Fey Court
Gulliver's Heights The Biggest/Strongest Giant????????
Hedon The Master an d The Mistress
The Mage's District Archmages
The Market District The Economancers
Mere Self-Made Nobles
Mithral Heights Self-Made Nobles
The Necropolis Graveborl The Uncaring
The Port District Guild Masters
Primordium Senishal of The Prime
Ravenshome The Ravens
Redmere Elder Fire Elementals
The Republic of Ishka President, Vice President, Senators, etc
Smallville
Stadel The King
Steamworks Forge Barons
Sunset Island Executives of the Company that owns the Island
Terradome Elder Earth Elementals
Temple District High Priests
Ungul
The Vault The Warden

Any other suggestions? Any ideas on how some of the ones already suggested come into "Nobility". Yes some are relatively obvious like The High Priest, but how about The Warden?

Erutaron

2010-04-30, 11:10 AM

[I]Can't remember the name but the district in the elemental plane of Air

Aerodyne :smallbiggrin:

Silverscale

2010-04-30, 11:16 AM

Aerodyne :smallbiggrin:

Thank's I'll Edit that now.

Added some more "Nobility"

BLiZme.2

2010-04-30, 11:33 AM

the warden is most defiantly correct some of there are technically correct but need to be pluralized because different disconnected sections have different leaders who i assume cooperate out of common internist these include

Street Nobles(there is just to much ground for even two if all we do is officially split them into north and south commons)
the groves? this is a maybe each section has a leader and the millennium tree is there superior i know way back in first ed druids were very ordered and had a set hierarchy so why not have just a little of that in Ishka
the ForgeBarons each forgeBaron owns essentially an entire seam-works of some note and they would act together to protect there common business interests from things like hire tariffs and restrictive business laws.
I may have forgotten this but how do we have one High Priest in the Temple District i can imagine each saint has a lead priest who may be called a high priest like the high priest of the dragons is probably ether a Kobald or a part dragon. but i cant recall any universal high priest. but maybe there is a universal church of the saints ie all the saints have a temple and priest hood but there is a priesthood that focuses not in any one saint but venerates them all individually and as a group i can see the high priest of that religion being the official head of the temple district.

as to nobility i think all of those listed here are nobility (as a side note on the warden I think the warden should have been made as a prototype for the golden army and it was deemed to self willed for general production hence the striping of much of the intelligent form the army though they still have some tactical ability)

Also even though most of the residents of Ether are ghosts how about the noble of the district is actually a filly sentient genius level intellect ethereal filcher mage. the ghosts tolerate his primacy because 1 he is living 2 hi is impressive and 3 he dose not get in the way of the ghosts governing sections the way they want as long as he has some level of control over the district "five hands make for lots of pies for your fingers and lots of ways to leave a light touch" and 4 he is sympathetic to the positions of the ghost population and is very willing to take any advice. "Five hands give you a lot of other hands to consider things on" he says. Plus a living false helps deal with many people in inter district populations and reminds everyone not just goats live in Ether.

Silverscale

2010-04-30, 11:45 AM

BRC

2010-04-30, 11:55 AM

Edited to reflect suggested plurals, actually most of them should be plural. I put a plural on High Priest, but I think you might be onto something with that one High Priest of the "Church of Ishka" or whatever you wanna call it.
Perhaps the district is run by a council made up of the different clerics of the officially recognized saints
For the record, the "Officially recognized" saints, that is, those with temples in the Temple district are:
Saint Bretre
Saint Baltin
Saint Merkiel
Saint Cassandra
Saint Olliden
Saint Minerva
First Builder
The Twin Dragon Saints
The Stone Raven

Kenrick has a temple in the Necropolis (Though near the edge where it's easily accessible to non-undead). Fleet Footed Jack has no organized religion, he's worshiped in dark alleys and gasped out between breaths when fleeing from the Law.

Silverscale

2010-04-30, 12:47 PM

@BRC good suggestions.

On a side note did we ever decide wiether the Saints are there as a replacment for the usual pantheon or in addition to the usual pantheon? I think they should be an Additional-Alternate Pantheon that happens to have a LOT of followers, but that there are also other gods represented in the city.....mostly the racial gods.

Actually come to think of it Urbanus from RoD might actually hve a fairly large following in Ishka seeing as how it's a Massive City and he's the God of Citys

Owrtho

2010-04-30, 03:03 PM

As I recall, the Saints are an alternate pantheon of Ishka. The majority of Ishka's citizens worship the saints. Gods from other pantheons do have minor temples in the temple district, but it is mainly for immigrants and visitors from outside the city. Other Gods are also not mentioned much so as not to tie Ishka to any one setting or plane, thus allowing someone to add it into a campaign with their own custom pantheon and religions, without having to drag in the standard DnD cosmology if they don't want to (and so they don't have to try cleansing the setting of it without having notable impacts where there aren't direct correlations between their own cosmology and it).

As for nobility in Ravenshome. While there isn't an actual way to become a noble there, it respects titles from other districts. It also has a small population of nobles that consist mostly of those that got trapped there or that are staying there waiting for something to blow over.
Also, random fact that most people seem to have forgotten (in part as it likely comes up only rarely in the setting as well), the official term for the raven statues in Ishka is Sentinels. However, despite this most people just refer to them as Ravens, and the saint is the Stone Raven.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-30, 03:53 PM

this is one of the main reasons that Ishka has no outer planer sections detailed only inner and transitive plane sections a while back some on mentioned a plain of wood idea for lumber and the Wild and while i like this idea in principle it relay throws the setting off if people want to use the normal cosmology whatever most of the planer contacts we have are pretty benign to any cosmology.

Silverscale

2010-04-30, 06:02 PM

We still haven't nailed down how many constructs/golems/Workforge we have in Ishka.

BLiZme.2

2010-04-30, 09:40 PM

here is my best guess at the construct (and suited fire elemental) population of Ishka categories preceded by an * are nonsentient or in some way inexorably tied to there creators like a homunculus.
work forged 10,000 ~40% are currently indentured
task forged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) 1500
intentionally awakened constructs. 300
*homunculus 1000
pipe serpents 2000
suited fire elemental s 3000
*the Golden army.5000(~1/3 the size of the us military)
* golums~7000
* clock roaches (phb3) and other domestic and simple utilitarian.100,000
* Favrgay show pieces ~200 major ~1500 minor
* "cheep" animated displays and toys 10,000

Just to clarify my earlier posts i do think there would be more then the three coffee houses than i specifically mentioned when dealing with stocks but i was just speaking about the minimum for the ones where you can usually go to find someone to cut a stock deal not all would do that kind of thing regularly and some may even frown on it in there premises.

Owrtho

2010-04-30, 10:06 PM

Huh, just a random thought, but I wonder what goes into becoming a priest or high priest of the Stone Raven. After all, if they just have to study in their temples, they would likely not be seen by some as particularly devoted due to the fact that you can somewhat encounter their patron saint by just going to Ravenshome. Similarly, if they have to go to Ravenshome and stay there as part of their training, I could see a number of them being at least a little odd from the experience. Perhaps there would be something like a pilgrimage they would have to make there that would involve staying a around a few weeks, with someone hoping to become high priest needing to stay for at least a year or so (maybe a few, though perhaps not all at once).

Also, looking at the list of saints, it seems the Stone Raven might just be the most actively feared of all the Saints.

As for the constructs, I feel like the numbers are a little low given the population of Ishka, but at the same time I may be wrong. As for the last one, depending on how you mean that, it seems like it might be drastically underestimated. I could easily see things like action figures that are mass produced being small golems and the like which could given the way such things are in the real world easily be in the hundreds of thousands on their own. Mind I doubt these would generally be counted toward the population in any way, the say way that people don't count their toys when they have a census.

Owrtho

BLiZme.2

2010-04-30, 11:12 PM

i know the smaller toys and common displays would probably never get counted even though golums and homunculi would ( registered as powerful magic weapons at least for golums and as intelligent beings(or whatever familiars get counted as) for homunculi).
for the last number i was thinking that should not cover things equivalent to a GIJO with a kung-fu action grip i was thinking things more along the lines of the solders from the movie small soldiers just non sentient. and larger toys like a self propelled horse on wheels or not. If we counted things i the first category i agree the number skyrockets

also the ones i counted are the kind of things even most middle class Ishkans could not afford especially as just a toy when a simple doll is almost as good.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-01, 01:41 AM

A little off topic, but I've been thinking about this for quite a while: urban druids and rangers. There are several things we could do, including:

For the Druid:

Replace Animal Companion with any type of similar CR creature.

Nature Sense is replaced by Urban Sense (Knowledge (A&E) or (Local) and Gather Info)

Woodland Stride becomes Urban Stride, either ignoring rubble or phasing through a wall (wis mod) times per day (can't decide between them)

Trackless Step becomes Blend In, becoming untraceable by the Urban Tracking feat (and - seriously - everyone in this thread ought to have Cityscape)

Can't decide what to replace Resist Nature's Lure

I've always been intrigued buy Wild Shape giving forms other than animals. The list of possibilities is almost endless, celestials, demons, devils, constructs: I particularly like the idea of an undead-worshipping druid who can turn into undead and replaces Timeless Body with the final 'ascension' into undead form.

The rest is pretty good, but we might want to have a look at the spell list. Cityscape has only two new spells for Druids, I think we need to get homebrewing!

For the Ranger:

Replace Track with Urban Tracking

Ditto Druid Animal Companion changes

Ditto Druid Woodland Stride changes

Replace Swift Tracker with Inquisitive, being able to make a Gather Info check every half an hour to track without the usual -5 penalty, and to ask every 15 mins at a -10 penalty

Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight now rely on urban terrain

May want to replace the ranged weapon Combat Style option, as ranged weapons aren't as useful in crowded urban settings.

Owrtho

2010-05-01, 02:15 AM

Resist hooker's lure?

More seriously, could be bonus to will save for resisting things like baggers, street vendors, etc. that could be found in the city, and in Ishka might have the means to make their goods a little more desirable with some mind altering magic.

As for another combat option for rangers, perhaps something like concealed weapons. Bonus to slight of hand checks for hiding weapons, ability to instantly draw a concealed weapon, bonus to attack and/or damage if the opponent doesn't yet know what type of weapon it is. That kind of thing. Might work well. Then again it would also be much more the purview of rogues, so...

Owrtho

Terror_Incognito

2010-05-01, 03:54 AM

Hi everyone I've had these thoughts rattling about in my head for a while so I felt it would be good to share them.

A while back someone mentioned Ishkans' feelings towards homosexuals, etc and that was discussed and finished with, but something else that needs to be considered is what are the prevailing attitudes towards Inter-vital relationships (living/undead couples). Personally I think it would trump any other bigotry someone might feel. You might hate that guy because he's an Half-fiend Orc, but at least he's not shagging a corpse.

Another group for the forum to consider
The Intimate Union
Ishka's only unopposed workers collective works to promote and protect the rights of the city's sex workers.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-01, 07:05 AM

Isint there an official urban {edit}ranger{/edit} variant i think it at in the phb2 or unearthed arcana as to the urban druid if we cant find an existing model i like theScribes changes (i just wouldn't rule out ranged as a choice even if it is sub par) Owrtho's idea is very good maby we should all it the scrimisher tree and it granta doge mobility and spring attack.
yes in some circals Inter-vital relationships are clerily wors ahem" the temple district" but to humans first a relationship of a human with an undead is tolerable if teh undead was Hunman.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-01, 08:32 AM

Some variations for druid Wild Shape:

Construct Form

Name: Construct Form
Class/Classes: Druid
Requirements: Must have seen or met a construct
Replaces: Wild Shape
Level: 5
Benefit: At fifth level, instead of gaining the Wild Shape ability, a druid may gain Construct Form as a supernatural ability. They gain the ability to turn into a medium animated object that appears as a statue of themselves. It may be made of paper, cloth, rope, glass, ice, leather, hide or wood. At 8th level it may be made of stone, at 11th level it may be made of iron or steel, at 12th level it may be made of mithral, and at 15th level it may be made of admantine.

In addition, he may turn into an animated object replica of any object he has touched as long as it does not have more hit dice than he has druid levels. If in a form other than that of a statue, a druid cannot speak whilst in construct form. A druid can use the Construct Form ability as often and for the same duration that they would be able to use Wild Shape if they had not chosen this variant. This ability otherwise functions as the Polymorph any Object spell.

At 16th level a Construct Form druid may turn into any golem that has the same amount of (or fewer) HD than them once per day. This is otherwise like the elemental form of Wild Shape, and progresses in the same way.

A Construct Form Druid also undergoes some changes to her spell list. Instead of the Animate Plants spell they gain Animate Objects as a seventh level spell. Instead of the Awaken spell they gain the Awaken Construct spell (I think one of them exists). They also gain all the Repair Damage spells featured in Complete Arcane.

Visage of Death

Name: Visage of Death
Class/Classes: Druid
Requirements: Must be familiar with undead
Replaces: Wild Shape, Animal Companion
Level: 1
Benefit: At 5th level a Druid who had chosen the Visage of Death variant (hereafter referred to as a Death Druid) may apply the skeleton or zombie template to themselves at will. In addition, they may transform into any other type of medium or small undead that has the same amount of (or fewer) HD than their druid level. They can use this ability the same amount of times per day and for the same amount of time as they would be able to use their Wild Shape ability if they had not chosen to become a Death Druid. The size of shapes they can assume also changes as the Wild Shape ability. This ability otherwise functions as the Polymorph any Object spell.

Instead of being able to turn into an elemental at 16th level, a Death Druid may apply the ghost or lich template to themselves for 10 + wis modifier rounds per day, not necessarily all at once. At 18th and 20th level the amount of rounds increases by 5.

A Death Druid may rebuke undead as a cleric.

A Death Druid also undergoes some changes to their spell list. They gain Animate Dead as a 4th level spell, replacing Reincarnate. They gain Create Undead at 7th level, replacing Animate Plants. They gain Create Greater Undead at 9th level, replacing Shambler. They also trade the Cure spells for equivalent Inflict spells.

Celestial Form

Name: Celestial Form
Class/Classes: Druid
Requirements: Must be lawful good, neutral good or chaotic good
Replaces: Alignment Restrictions, Wild Shape
Level: 1
Benefit: At 5th level a Druid who has chosen the Celestial Form variant gains the Celestial template. At 16th level they gain the Half-Celestial template instead.

A Celestial Form Druid also undergoes some changes to his or her spell list. They gain all spells mentioned in the cleric domain of good.

Fiendish Form

Name: Fiendish Form
Class/Classes: Druid
Requirements: Must be lawful evil, neutral evil or chaotic evil
Replaces: Alignment Restrictions, Wild Shape
Level: 1
Benefit: At 5th level a Druid who has chosen the Fiendish Form variant gains the Fiendish template. At 16th level they gain the Half-Fiend template instead.

A Fiendish Form Druid also undergoes some changes to his or her spell list. They gain all spells mentioned in the cleric domain of evil.

Silverscale

2010-05-01, 09:14 AM

@The Lonely Scribe I like what you've got here with just 2 nit-picks, actually it's the same thing twice, in both Celestial and Fiendish form you cave them the Celestial/Fiendish Template first and the Half Celestial/Half Fiendish Template later....it should be the other way around since the Half Templates are +2 and the Full Templates are +4

@The Numbers of Constructs I too think some of the numbers are low particularly the Homunoculus number, think of all the mages we have spread across not one but 3 different districts.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-01, 09:24 AM

@The Lonely Scribe I like what you've got here with just 2 nit-picks, actually it's the same thing twice, in both Celestial and Fiendish form you cave them the Celestial/Fiendish Template first and the Half Celestial/Half Fiendish Template later....it should be the other way around since the Half Templates are +2 and the Full Templates are +4

Look in the MM. Half Celestial is actually more celestial than Celestial. Confusing, right?

Also, perhaps a Celestial or Fiendish Form Druid could apply the templates to their animal companion instead of getting higher HD ones (as in the sidebar tables on p36 PH)

Also, talking about animal companions, was it balanced giving Death Druids Rebuke Undead instead of Animal Companion?

Silverscale

2010-05-01, 10:59 AM

Look in the MM. Half Celestial is actually more celestial than Celestial. Confusing, right?{cracks open MM....flip flip flip flip flip.....blink blink}Wow....I stand corrected

RE giving the template to companions too.....i don't see why not.

Silverscale

2010-05-01, 06:58 PM

here is my best guess at the construct (and suited fire elemental) population of Ishka categories preceded by an * are nonsentient or in some way inexorably tied to there creators like a homunculus.
work forged 10,000 ~40% are currently indentured
task forged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) 1500
intentionally awakened constructs. 300
*homunculus 1000
pipe serpents 2000
suited fire elemental s 3000
*the Golden army.5000(~1/3 the size of the us military)
* golums~7000
* clock roaches (phb3) and other domestic and simple utilitarian.100,000
* Favrgay show pieces ~200 major ~1500 minor
* "cheep" animated displays and toys 10,000

Here's my version of your list with a few updates...

Workforged ~20,000 ~40% are currently indentured
Taskforged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) ~2,500
Intentionally awakened constructs ~500
*Homunculus ~10,000
Pipe Serpents ~2,500
Suited Fire Elementals ~3,000
*The Golden Army 5,000 (~1/3 the size of the us military) Where are you getting this number?
*Golems~15,000
*Clock Roaches (phb3) and other domestic and simple utilitarian ~100,000
*Fabrege show pieces ~250 major ~2,000 minor
*"Cheap" animated displays and toys ~1,000,000 Including "action figures"

Remember some of these are counted as part of the total population others are not. Also remember we're talking about a Massive City/State with a population approaching 1 Billion.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-01, 10:21 PM

Look in the MM. Half Celestial is actually more celestial than Celestial. Confusing, right?

Also, perhaps a Celestial or Fiendish Form Druid could apply the templates to their animal companion instead of getting higher HD ones (as in the sidebar tables on p36 PH)

Also, talking about animal companions, was it balanced giving Death Druids Rebuke Undead instead of Animal Companion?

Technically Celestial 100% is more celestial than Half Celestial 50% BUT Half Celestial's are more powerful its like Celestial is +100% of 10 and Half Celestial +50% of 40. But this is just a technicality

@ outsider companions if full costs on step and half costs to go for it

@ Rebuke Undead: it should be command (more in tune) and yes it is balanced for that cost due to all the spend turn/roebuck feats.

@ Silverscale I intentionally amid low for all of those except the army I think that’s almost certainly right

on your changes in order

Workforged ~20,000 ~40% are currently indentured (I will assume this is correct and go from their i see nothing wrong but wrapping my head around the demographics is hard)
Taskforged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) ~2,500(ok)
Intentionally awakened constructs ~500(I would inflate this more in line with the above especially if urban druids get awaken construct (BTW the two awaken construct spells (one is awaken the other is animate(makes the construct a humanoid or giant based on size) are both in savage species and need a humanoid brain and XP awaken construct is also in the Spell Compendium as a level 9 wis/sorc,cleric)
*Homunculus ~10,000 (this as way to high because they are very hard to make and unlike all the others dies with its creator and can not be truly made for another person so only the ones made by a living master for themself are still around.
Pipe Serpents ~2,500 (maybe it should be 3,000)
Suited Fire Elementals ~3,000 (this implied there are only 9000 genetic fire elementals in the city at most assuming each of the three types is equally common (this is unreasonable as possessors are rare but the solids can make up the difference) unless the suited are a distinct minority.
*The Golden Army 5,000 (~1/3 the size of the us military) Where are you getting this number? Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces) specifically Active personnel 1,473,900 I left out the 1,458,500 Reserve personnel thess numbers jived with my recolections of more solid sorsis (quotes of unclassified DOD reports)
*Golems~15,000 (ok the city is old and golems are always awesome
*Clock Roaches (phb3) and other domestic and simple utilitarian ~100,000
*Fabrege show pieces ~250 major ~2,000 minor
*"Cheap" animated displays and toys ~1,000,000 Including "action figures"(ok if action figures are like GI-JOEs with a kung-fu grip)
is 10,000 things more along the lines of the solders from the movie small soldiers just non sentient. and larger toys like a self propelled horse on wheels a good number is if so we should note it

Generally very good

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-02, 01:56 AM

Rebuke undead is the same thing as command undead. Also, in Silverscale's list o' district leaders, the Academy is presumably run by the 5 immortal professors. Smallville: pixie queen? Ungul: celestial charger unicorn? perhaps collaborating/competing with a nightmare? Ether: ghost council?

O.K, let's stat out the urban Druid and Ranger builds:

Urban Druid

Name: Urban Druid
Class/Classes: Druid
Requirements: Must live in an urban area
Replaces: Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure
Level: 1
Benefit: At 1st level an Urban Druid gains Urban Savvy (Ex), which grants her a +2 bonus to Knowledge (local) and Gather Information checks. At the same level they get Filth Empathy (Ex), which functions like Wild Empathy, except that it can affect vermin if the Druid takes a -4 penalty on the check.

At 2nd level an Urban Druid gains the ability Urban Stride (Ex). They no longer take penalties for movement for moving through crowds, and they never get hit by moving vehicles. This does not apply to magical crowds (such as those created by the soon-to-come shadow crowd spell) or crowds and vehicles purposefully trying to disrupt movement.

At 3rd level an Urban Druid gains the ability Blend In (Ex). They can no longer be tracked by the Urban Tracking feat, unless they purposefully choose to allow it.

At 4th level an Urban Druid gains the ability No Mind Tricks (Ex). They get a +4 bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects.

Urban Ranger

Name: Urban Ranger
Class/Classes: Ranger
Requirements: Must live in an urban area
Replaces: Track, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight
Level: 1
Benefit: At 1st level an Urban Ranger gains the Urban Tracking feat as a bonus feat.

At 2nd level they may choose a third combat style, Hidden Weapon. They can draw hidden weapons as a free action if they choose this combat style.

At 6th level an Urban Ranger who has chosen the Hidden Weapon combat style gains the following ability. When attacking with a weapon hidden on their person but no weapons in their hands a Hidden Weapon Ranger may make an unarmed attack at their normal attack bonus, then attack with their hidden weapon at at their secondary attack bonus, and behave as if they had the Improved Critical feat with that weapon. For every five points of base attack bonus they have over +6 they gain an additional attack with their hidden weapon, but these additional attacks do not have a better chance of dealing critical hits.

At 7th level an Urban Ranger gains the ability Urban Stride (Ex). They no longer take penalties for movement for moving through crowds, and they never get hit by moving vehicles. This does not apply to magical crowds (such as created the soon-to-come shadow crowd spell) or crowds and vehicles purposefully trying to disrupt movement.

At 8th level an Urban Ranger gains the ability Inquisitive (Ex). When using the Urban Tracker feat they are able to make a Gather Information check every half an hour to track without the usual -5 penalty, and to ask every 15 mins at a -10 penalty.

At 11th level an Urban Ranger that has chosen the Hidden Weapon combat style gains the following ability. When attacking with a hidden weapon that they have drawn in the same round as attacking, an Urban Ranger may ignore armour on their attack.

At 13th level an Urban Ranger gains the ability Urban Camouflage. It works exactly like the Camouflage ability, but it only works in urban areas.

At 17the level an Urban Ranger gains the ability Hide in Plain Sight. It works exactly like the Ranger ability of the same name, except that it only works in urban areas.

Silverscale

2010-05-02, 08:55 AM

@The Lonely Scribe: What happened to the variations on Wildshape? Are we still using them cuz I think they're cool. Also I like your suggestions for the rest of the "Nobility".

@BLiZme.2: Let's take a look here
Workforged ~20,000 ~40% are currently indentured (I will assume this is correct and go from their i see nothing wrong but wrapping my head around the demographics is hard) I'll leave this the same then.
Taskforged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) ~2,500(ok)I'll leave this the same then.
Intentionally awakened constructs ~500(I would inflate this more in line with the above especially if urban druids get awaken construct (BTW the two awaken construct spells (one is awaken the other is animate(makes the construct a humanoid or giant based on size) are both in savage species and need a humanoid brain and XP awaken construct is also in the Spell Compendium as a level 9 wis/sorc,cleric) Ok how about 1,000
*Homunculus ~10,000 (this as way to high because they are very hard to make and unlike all the others dies with its creator and can not be truly made for another person so only the ones made by a living master for themself are still around. Ok let's split the difference and call it 5,000
Pipe Serpents ~2,500 (maybe it should be 3,000) Ok 3,000 it is then.
Suited Fire Elementals ~3,000 (this implied there are only 9000 genetic fire elementals in the city at most assuming each of the three types is equally common (this is unreasonable as possessors are rare but the solids can make up the difference) unless the suited are a distinct minority. Given the extremely hostile environment Ishka presents to a Fire Elemental (Much too cold) most Fire Elementals stay on the Plane of Fire.
*The Golden Army 5,000 (~1/3 the size of the us military) Where are you getting this number? Wikipedia specifically Active personnel 1,473,900 I left out the 1,458,500 Reserve personnel thess numbers jived with my recolections of more solid sorsis (quotes of unclassified DOD reports) Ok I'm not mathmatician.....oh wait yes I am, I teach Math at the high school level. 5,000 is not ~1/3 of 1.47 million, 5,000 is ~1/300 of 1.47 million. (Sorry pet peeve of mine)
*Golems~15,000 (ok the city is old and golems are always awesome) I'll leave this the same then.
*Clock Roaches (phb3) and other domestic and simple utilitarian ~100,000
*Fabrege show pieces ~250 major ~2,000 minor
*"Cheap" animated displays and toys ~1,000,000 Including "action figures"(ok if action figures are like GI-JOEs with a kung-fu grip)
is 10,000 things more along the lines of the solders from the movie small soldiers just non sentient. and larger toys like a self propelled horse on wheels a good number is if so we should note it. Yes ~1,000,000 includes GI-Joe's with kung-fu grip, and ~10,000 "smart" toys (I'd give them INT 3, smart enough to obey simple commands and have one language) and other bigger/cooler toys like your self-propelled horse.

On a side note I'm about to flip through MM1-5 to make a list of all the constructs/golems, mostly for my own edification and also to see if there are any gaps in what's already out there that wee need to Homebrew for Ishka.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-02, 09:14 AM

@The Lonely Scribe: What happened to the variations on Wildshape? Are we still using them cuz I think they're cool.

Of course we're using them, but they're a separate variant. Not every Urban Druid has to be a Death Druid/Construct Druid/Celestial Druid/Fiendish Druid, and visa versa. Nothing 'happened' to them, they're still there, thy just aren't automatically included in the Urban Druid package.

Renrik

2010-05-02, 11:34 AM

Ungul is rules by the Centaurs. Ether is, I would assume, ruled by a ghost council.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-02, 02:27 PM

@Silverscale 1/300 :smalleek: oh my I have NOOOOO idea how I miss those zeros I must have just grabbed the first , and ran with it :smallredface:
lets go with 50,000 and split the difference or 500,000 and make the fraction right.

as to the toys i was thinking that they ALL had INT - like a golem and its just some could walk around on command kind of like those robot toys (http://www.wowwee.com/en/products/toys/robots/robotics/robosapiens) you se now I just used small solders as an example because of the sheer detail in there articulation (Full Function HANDS!) Sory for the lack of clarity I think that if we have interactive toys they should cap at INT 2 because by the book you are not sapient till INT 3
(with these tweaks I fully support your changes)
as to the fire elementals I am ok with your interpretation but that means we need stats for a suited fire elemental out of their suit for use on the plane of fire also if we write one of those we should write a generic earth elemental too to finish the set.

As to the construct list cool don’t forget the fiend folio if you have it. (And in a little beating you to the punch, should there be an Ishkan goat clockwork stead?)

Silverscale

2010-05-02, 03:30 PM

@BLiZme.2 I'm actually looking through all the source books I have for 3.0/3.5 to make a list of constructs.....so far I've been trough 10 books and damn there are a lot of constructs. So far I have about 5 Inevitables, over 30 Golems, a variety of Homunculi, enough Clock-work things to start a nation, 3 different Warforged, and an assortment of other constructs.

As to the toys, yeah that's in line with what I have in mind....I only said INT 3 so they could have the ability to use one language to speak, otherwise you're right it should be capped at INT 2.

@Renrik You're right Ungul is ruled by a tribe of Centaurs but we're talking all nobility not just the one person/set of people in charge. Take The Groves for instance, not only are they ruled by the Elder Druids but also The Fey Court. Therefore I don't see any reason we can't have both the centaurs and a Celestial Charger Unicorn.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-03, 01:53 AM

Doctor Worthinton

Vestige Level: 8th
Binding DC: 32
Special Requirement: Yes

Dr. Worthinton is set apart from other vestiges in that a) he is not as mysterious as them, in fact any Ishkan can know of his history with a DC 20 History check, and b) he is nowhere near as mad and aggressive as them. He gives his summoners knowledge of the planes, the ability to teleport across huge distances in the blink of an eye, and the ability to temporarily banish a foe from existence.

Legend: Hopefully you still remember

Special Requirement: The summoner must have suffered a mishap in teleportation or have had a bumpy ride on the Stations.

Manifestation: Doctor Worthinton first pops into the seal appearing as he was in life. Accompanying him is a small, high-pitched drone. He behaves civilly, and will answer any questions he is asked to the best of his ability, however, he is horribly aware of his condition and limited time in this world. As the summoning goes on, small parts of Worthinton start to disappear. If he looks at them, they instantly reappear, but another part of him vanishes. All this while the sound in the background gets louder and louder. Once the minute of summoning is almost up, Worthinton finds himself as simply a head, floating in mid-air, accompanied by loud, unpleasant noise. When his time is up, he vanishes, and his scream finishes in a horrible gurgle.

Sign: Parts of your body habitually disappear or fade. In addition, anything you say hangs in the air for a moment, like an echo.

Influence: When you are under the Doctor's influence he demands that, if teleportation is a viable means of travel to any location, you use it. This can take the form of any teleportation effect, including the Stations. In addition, you become over-polite and a loud-mouth, talking about anything you know (making a knowledge check every 20 turns and taking a swift action to deliver a mini-lecture on it).

Granted Powers:

Concealment: If you are manifesting the Doctor's sign you always have concealment.

Worthinton's Knowledge: You can use the Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (the Plains) untrained and with a + 13 competence bonus. In addition, when you or a nearby ally are using a teleportation effect, you or he may treat their destination as one step more familiar. If they have only a general description they can teleport as if they had seen that place once.

Reality Phase: As a standard action you can make a melee touch attack to make your target temporarily vanish from existence. If you hit the target gets a Will saving throw to resist the effect. If it fails it and all its equipment vanish from existence for a number of rounds equal to your effective binder level. No-one but you even remembers them. However, the universe is generally not very happy with this state of affairs, and the target pops back into existence as if it had delayed its action to the beginning of the round. For each creature you have wiped from existence at once with this ability it lasts for half as many rounds until all of them are safely returned.

Scream: As a standard action you unleash a louder, more horrible version of the Doctor's last scream. This ability functions as the Shout spell. Once you have used this ability you cannot again for 5 rounds.

Teleport: As a standard action you may use teleport as the spell. Your bonus on accuracy applies, and being able to see the target area means you treat it as very familiar. Once you have used this ability you cannot again for 5 rounds.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-03, 02:11 AM

Shadow Crowd
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Bard 3, Urban Druid/Ranger 3
Components: V,S,M/DF
Range: Medium (100ft + 10ft/level)
Effect: A crowd of menacing shadows in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Shadow Crowd Summons a crowd of wandering souls from the shadow plane to mill around in an area and do your will before returning to their endless, meaningless journey on the plane of shadow. Any enemy moving through the area must spend 4 squares of movement for each square. An ally need only spend two.
eeeIn addition, when the Shadow Crowd is summoned it rolls initiative using your bonus. On its turn it may make a grapple attack against any creature in its area. Its attack bonus to make contact equals your base attack bonus plus your intelligence/charisma/wisdom modifier. Its grapple bonus is the same figure.

Silverscale

2010-05-03, 12:52 PM

Life is proving too busy to get anything done on the map of Ishka but I think we have a good idea of the general shape/layout from our earlier discussions of it. If I ever get a chance to work on it some more, I will post it up when I've completed it.:smallannoyed:

On a different note, I've made it through most of my extensive collection of 3.0/3.5 books and have a list of constructs/golems, that I was trying to post earlier before one of my students decided it was a good idea to close all my tabs.:smallfurious:

Suffice it to say there are a lot and I will get the list up later when I get home. There is also a wealth of Home-brew Constructs right here on the forums, and city-themed monsters, I will try and get links up for some of these later to get peoples reactions as to how they might fit into Ishka:smallsmile:

One construct I can think of that we need to stat out are the Colossal Harvesters from Galdren.

Also to clean up the breakdown list of constructs
Workforged ~20,000 ~40% are currently indentured
Taskforged (Spontaneously awakened constructs) ~2,500
Intentionally awakened constructs ~1,000
*Homunculus ~5,000
Pipe Serpents ~3,000
Suited Fire Elementals ~3,000
*The Golden Army 50,000
*Golems~15,000
*Clock Roaches and other domestic and simple utilitarian ~100,000
*Fabrege show pieces ~250 major ~2,000 minor
*"Cheap" animated displays and toys ~1,000,000 Including "action figures" (Think GI-JOEs with a kung-fu grip) or ~10,000 "smart" toys (I'd give them INT 3, smart enough to obey simple commands and have one language) and other bigger/cooler toys like a self-propelled horse.

Silverscale

2010-05-03, 04:23 PM

Here's a "final" list of Nobility.

Academy The Five Immortal Professors
The Art Community Master Artisans
Aquarane Elder Water Elementals
Aerodyne Elder Air Elementals, Skyship Captains
The Collected Colleges The Dean
The Commons Street Nobles
Customs and Immigrations The Secretary of Immigration (appointed by the council)
The Dark City Drow Nobles
The Draconic Heritage Collective Elder Dragon esp. The Two
Ether Council of Ghosts
Everdark Vampire Lords??????
Gobin Hobgoblin Shoguns
The Groves Elder Druids, The Fey Court
Gulliver's Heights The Biggest/Strongest Giant????????
Hedon The Master an d The Mistress
The Mage's District Archmages
The Market District The Economancers
Mere Self-Made Nobles
Mithral Heights Self-Made Nobles
The Necropolis Graveborl The Uncaring
The Port District Guild Masters
Primordium Senishal of The Prime
Ravenshome The Ravens
Redmere Elder Fire Elementals
The Republic of Ishka President, Vice President, Senators, etc
Smallville ?????????
Stadel The King
Steamworks Forge Barons
Sunset Island Executives of the Company that owns the Island
Terradome Elder Earth Elementals
Temple District High Priests
Ungul Centaur Tribe, Celestial Charger Unicorn
The Vault The Warden

Owrtho

2010-05-03, 09:16 PM

ForzaFiori

2010-05-03, 09:28 PM

For Gulliver's Heights, The giants in the Thranething, in addition to ruling the district, would probably be the closest thing to nobility they have. Possibly a few other giants from each race in addition.

Silverscale

2010-05-04, 08:47 AM

I'll point out that these are the nobles, not those in charge. As such, despite being the highest authority in Ravenshome (sorta) the Ravens are not actually nobility. Rather, Ravenshome has no way of becoming a noble there, but recognizes the nobility of other districts and countries (though there are few of the latter).

In a similar way, many of those look like they could use some expanding. For example, in Stadel, I expect it as more nobility than just the king. In fact, a number of these seem to be 'who is in charge', rather than 'who is considered to be nobility'. For example, I could see the Academy having it be something like 'any teacher with tenure'. For Everdark, something not undead might fit better, as Vampires would fit more into Necropolis.

Also, I could see a number of districts just having a more standard form of nobility, despite the fact that something could be applied (this could also work well for those that are more difficult to come up with).
Owrtho

Ok let's take a look here Changes in blue.
Academy The Five Immortal Professors, Tenured Teachers/Professors
The Art Community Master Artisans, Self-Made Nobles
Aquarane Primal Water Elementals
Aerodyne Primal Air Elementals, Skyship Captains
The Collected Colleges The Dean, Tenured Faculty
The Commons Street Nobles
Customs and Immigrations The Secretary of Immigration (appointed by the council)
The Dark City Drow Nobles
The Draconic Heritage Collective Elder Dragon esp. The Two
Ether Council of Ghosts
Everdark ?????????
Gobin Hobgoblin Shoguns
The Groves Elder Druids, The Fey Court
Gulliver's Heights Members of The Thranething, Elder Giants
Hedon The Master an d The Mistress, Self-Made Nobles
The Mage's District Archmages
The Market District The Economancers, Guild Masters, Self-Made Nobles
Mere Self-Made Nobles
Mithral Heights Self-Made Nobles
The Necropolis Graveborl The Uncaring, Graveborl's Court, Vampire Lords, Self-Made Nobles
The Port District Guild Masters
Primordium Senishal of The Prime
Ravenshome The Ravens (Technically not "Nobles), Other Nobility is recognised but none is earned in Ravenshome
Redmere Primal Fire Elementals
The Republic of Ishka President, Vice President, Senators, etc
Smallville ?????????
Stadel The King and his Court
Steamworks Forge Barons
Sunset Island Executives of the Company that owns the Island
Terradome Primal Earth Elementals
Temple District High Priests
Ungul Centaur Tribe, Celestial Charger Unicorn
The Vault The Warden

Silverscale

2010-05-04, 09:08 AM

Take a look at this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89675 with particular attention to Lowfolk, Weirded Way, Sialla Danda, and Urban Oasis

Also Take a look at E.M.I.T. Constructs from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7987650#post7987650

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-04, 02:58 PM

The Package: Part 2

Glimmerthorn sat alone at a table in the coffee house. He absent-mindedly stirred sugar into his mug, looking into the distance. Every so often he sent a spark between two of his fingers, refining the arcane power he had been blessed with ever since a fateful day as an adolescent.

It was just a playful game of hide-and-threaten-small-helpless-animals-to-seek, and Glimmerthorn was being pursued by his prodigal friend Flitterstone and his familiar. Trying to buy some time, Glimmerthorn invested his power in flinging a small illusory orb back at his friend to distract him, but something happened. A dark, chaotic fury overtook him, the magic that was to distract became warped, twisted and powerful. As the spell left his hand the gnomish boy heard a yell from behind him. He turned round, and Flitterstone was grasping at a large, steaming, evil hole in his stomach. The unfortunate arcanist gasped his last breath. His cat familiar curled up and died on top of him.

Glimmerthorn was dragged out of his character-introducing dreaming by the approach of his friend and co-adventurer Thrine. The worshipper of the True Kings of the Undead was moving through the crowd of the coffee house like a fish through water. It was partially to do with his natural agility and comfort in the crowded environment, but still, nobody really got in the way of a halfing with a white-painted face and two black stripes across his forehead.

'Hello, companion. How's the coffee?'

'Good enough. How's T'Rask?'

'In the park, waiting for the Watchman to go away. He was practising with the Doomaxe, but the Guard came along and told him it was a fire hazard.'

'Ha! Typical T'Rask. I swear, once a half-orc, always a half-orc.'

There was a silence. The two shifted uncomfortably in their seats. A waiter came by, and Thrine ordered a shot of extra strong, unsweetened chocolate. The silence returned.

'You really mustn't blame yourself you know, Glimmerthorn. It's that damned priest, if it weren't for him Acer would be sitting here with us right now.'

'I know. It's just, you know, it keeps replaying over and over in my head, I keep trying to think if I could have possibly saved him. Who knows, if I had saved his life, he may have treated me with a modicum of respect for once.'

'He respected you a lot more than you know Glimmerthorn. He respected that you can keep on living a good, lawful life, even with the dark power inside you. He respected you for being the master of yourself, and the demon within you. It's that damn priest, like I say. I don't think he even deserves to be part of the company any more.'

'Thrine, you know we can't do that. Saints above - before he joined our group our spending on healing potions was almost ten times as much as it is now. He's annoying, I know, but he's too useful. Anyway, it's useful having a minor noble on our side, it gets us places.'

'Hmm. I suppose you're right. But when are we next going on a mission? I'm sure there are many more healers that would be willing to join for a share of treasure if we search long enough.'

'I don't think that we'll have enough time. Something always turns up.'

As soon as he had finished his sentence a poster boy ran past. A sheet from a bundle of identical flyers under his arm came loose, and was carried along by a draft of air from a vent. It floated through the open door of the coffee house and came to rest on the very table the two adventurers were sitting at. Glitterthorn picked it up and looked at the heading.

'Mercenaries and Adventurers Wanted! Pay in Pillars Available!'

'Now I know the gods have it in for me.'

BLiZme.2

2010-05-04, 07:15 PM

How about the nobility in Everdark are mostly mindflayers they hate light and are generally viewed as scheming and powerful both personally and politically.
on the topic of Illithids are we going with the fluff that mindflayers need to eat psychic energy to survive or are we just going witeh brains for the cerebrospinal fluid they need as a dietary supplement or are they just normal carnivores if we assume they are psychovores then peace loving flayers can eat oblivax aka memory moss for there psychic dietary needs. (You could go to a memory moss farm and sell your days memory if you had a bad day and if you are a spell caster well then your spells would command a pretty penny [note fluff conflicts as to the plants sentience some says it is not some says it is some says it is not but caries an echo of its last meal.])in any event the plant dose not have to be killed to provide Illithid nourishment so it is a preferable option IIRC an Illithid needs a sentient mind (or dose of oblivax) every month a brain(not necessarily sentient) a week and meat every few days to thrive and about half that to live in full health and can survive nearly indefinitely on about half that.. Awhile a go TheLonelyScribe mentioned an Illithid pacifist organization I like the entire idea except the tentacle removal thing that seems ... intense it would be like pulling your teat and cutting of a hand because others are afraid of them but I get the sentiment.

@TheLonelyScribe another good story I await your next installment.
@Silverscale would you consider it as stepping on your toes if I tried my hand at a map? I’m not the best artist but I love drawing maps (if yes any refinances not already posted would be of help)
As to the feats I promised I have not forgotten my schedule has just been more hectic than expected. I expect them to be done some time this week.

ForzaFiori

2010-05-04, 07:55 PM

I have to agree with the tentacle cutting thing. Yes, they cause some people a bit of fright, but if illithids need to eat brains, the tentacles are about as important as hands are for us when we eat. They hold the skull while their mouth removes the brains. Without them, they would have difficulty getting their required nutrients (which I assume they get by buying bodies that actually stay dead, or even eating the brain right out of an undead [they don't really need it anymore, and if they paid...])

Silverscale

2010-05-05, 06:01 AM

@BLiZme.2 Go for it if you want to make a map of Ishka. Also good idea for Everdark Nobility, what do people think of the rest of the list?

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-05, 12:20 PM

Completely out of the blue, I had a sudden urge to talk about the Arcane Engine. Here are some rules for players wanting to access it and a prestige class for the best users.

Feat: Arcane Engine User
Prerequisites: Member of the Academy's arcane department, arcane spell-preparing caster level 3
Benefit: If you have access to the Arcane Engine when you are preparing your spells you may choose up to 10 spells of different levels. You cast those spells at +1 caster level until the end of the day.

Engine Arcanist

Prerequisites:
Feats: Arcane Engine User, one metamagic feat, one item creation feat
Skills: Spellcraft 8, Knowledge (arcana) 8
Special: Arcane Spell-Preparing Caster Level 5, member of the Academy's arcane department

The Engine Arcanist
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Engine Use|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Engine Use|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Engine Use|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Engine Use|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Engine Use|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]

Engine Use: Choose one of the benefits below every time you gain a level in Engine Arcanist. You may gain that benefit instead of that bestowed by the Arcane Engine User feat when you have access to the arcane engine.

Affect spells with up to 3 + 1/2 your Engine Arcanist level levels of metamagic feats without affecting the spell slot required to cast them with.

Prepare 1 extra level 1 spell

Decrease the amount of XP required to make a magic item by one quarter (usable once per week)

Choose a 0-level spell. You lose the ability to cast 1st and 0-level spells for the rest of the day, but you gain the ability to use that spell at will instead.

Gain concealment for the rest of the day.

Gain a +2 bonus to will saves to the rest of the day.

Gain a +2 bonus to BAB when attacking with arcane spells for the rest of the day.

Any other ideas?

BLiZme.2

2010-05-05, 03:37 PM

@Silverscale Cool and the rest of the list looks good
@ TheLonelyScribe I’m a little confused by what you are talking about with the diplomacy check it seems to imply the engine affects things we haven’t said it dose and that accessing it is now more difficult even for those with the feat.
Also your PRC should give +1 spell casting on all or maybe not the first or second level (not both) and should spread the other bonuses out to other levels like Access Engine +5at level one and a Metamagic Feat at level 2. As wrote this class is hugely sub par.

Silverscale

2010-05-05, 06:41 PM

@The Lonely Scribe: How about dropping the DC down to 35 so you don't have to be level 20 with max ranks in Diplomacy to make the check reliably.

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-06, 01:07 AM

DC 35 makes sense, but remember that if you're saving lives or finding spells you get significant bonuses, and these are things that PCs do rather often.

@ Blizme2, the Arcane Engine is a lot more powerful than you are gathering. It can apply a +1 metamagic feat to all of your spells, or it can give an extra spell slot per spell level. Guaranteed access to the Arcane Engine (presuming you have 9 levels available including 0 through 8) is equal to about 5 levels of spell progression for a wizard. If anything, this PrC is overpowered, as they can get the things that increase their power significantly, whilst still getting spell progression.

Really, I think you are both underestimating the power of the arcane engine as I imagined it. Suggest any changes and I will be happy to introduce them, but only if they're balanced. A prestige class with full spell progression and a good chance of 5 levels more every other day is not balanced.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-06, 12:49 PM

you forget that if you are taking this PRC you are not going to be able to cast level 9 spells until level 22 and that means if you want epic level spells i.e. level 10+ (not epic spell casting) you have to wait even longer on top of that you might delay level 8 spells a level

plus if I read you right then I think the arcane engine is inherently over powered and should be toned down at least for the uses players can put it to normally. it could say allow for the creation of magic items with low or no XP cost (incidentally this helps explain all the incredibly week and frivolous magic items, they are made by hiring out juice from the arcane engine, otherwise who would spend 10-1000 XP on a toy that wasn’t even for your own kid) and id be ok wit that as a suggested change to keep it absurdly powerful but not inherently game braking I would even let it boost spell casting (to an outrageous level) as a plot effect but normally your never allowed to do that as it automatically stops the engine doing anything else, maybe it powers on or more other great works? and you could use it to do things like decimate whole armies lift whole districts destroy a major artifact you know any plot effect needed. As a continues addition double spell slots or effectively making all your spells 1 level higher is just to much this is the kind of thing that had to be nerfed in the arch mage between version 3.0 and 3.5 (moor spastically huge pluses to caster level).

On an unrelated note we need names for the lake the canyon and the river they probably wont come up much in the setting but not having teal names for them would be just unrealistic even if most people just called them the lake the river and the canyon (some people may not even know the official names) they would have official names that im, sure would be used on official documents.
I suggest The Rowalaz River, Fissure Canyon, and Lake Leayoratus(sounds mermish to me and the original inhabitants were merpeople so).

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-06, 12:56 PM

Actually, that's given me an (almost completely unrelated) idea. Look at the edited PrC for more info.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-06, 01:47 PM

This is much clearer and more balance generally I only have a couple of comments. My comments in blue. Also the feat is now much clearer and balanced.

Engine Use: Choose one of the benefits below every time you gain a level in Engine Arcanist. You may gain that benefit instead of that bestowed by the Arcane Engine User feat when you have access to the arcane engine.

Affect spells with up to 3 + 1/2 your Engine Arcanist level levels of metamagic feats without affecting the spell slot required to cast them with.this is ok (I had to read it 3 times though not sure how to fix that) but I would cap the addition to any one spell to your Arcane engine user level so no quickened LV9 spells unless you are at least a level 4 arcane engine user.

Prepare 1 extra level 1 spell this seems underpowered maybe make it +1 spell slot of your Arcane Engine User level (that to may be under powered).

Decrease the amount of XP required to make a magic item by one quarter (usable once per week)this should specifically say it stacks with the similar feet in Eberon and the other one from Forgotten Realms (note both of those IIRC are 1/2 XP cost but the Sage once said they do not stack.

Choose a 0-level spell. You lose the ability to cast 1st and 0-level spells for the rest of the day, but you gain the ability to use that spell at will instead.this seems balanced may even be underpowered but very cool prestidigitation at will anyone.

Gain concealment for the rest of the day. Can I get a fluff explanation? otherwise this seems to random and I’m not sure on the balance seems ok though.

Gain a +2 bonus to will saves to the rest of the day.seems ok.

Gain a +2 bonus to BAB when attacking with arcane spells for the rest of the day.seems ok.

In general this is much better and appears balanced to me (with out play testing).

Moved from earlier post due to ninjaing

also what general teck level are we going for i picture something very early enlightenment or late renaissance ether of those would have guns IRL. For that we could use the stats on page 145 of the DMG and include the blunderbuss found here (http://www.spelljammer.org/chars/equip/weapons3e.html) if the general coconscious is that the DMG cost of ~1 GP a shot is to much then we could lower that to 1-5 sp or if it is to cheep we could call it smoke powder make it a high dc alchemical substance and give it a cost of 10 GP per shot (comparable to Level 1 CL1 wand charge).

ForzaFiori

2010-05-06, 02:32 PM

I would think that single shot guns are fairly readily available, and possibly revolvers (both pistol and rifle revolvers, AKA turret guns) could be just coming out. VERY expensive, obviously.

Silverscale

2010-05-07, 01:48 PM

I've got two ideas for places of interest, one has been ratelling around in my head for quite some time now and the other just occured to me today.

Place of Interest: The Great Library
Location: The Collected Colleges
Description: With connections all over the multiverse and a wealth of knowledge from all the learned mages and scholars within Ishka, it was inevitable that the Library that started so many years ago in what has now become The Collected Colleges, would eventually become the greatest single collection of knowlegde in the known multiverse.

Place of Interest: Cathedral of The Four Winds
Location: Atop the highest mountain in the range that borders Ishka
Description: Constructed of masterfully worked stone, wood, glass, and precious metals, the Cathedral of The Four Winds is carved to carefully catch every gust of wind around it and turn it into a beautiful symphony of sound as it passes through massive pipe and horn like structures. The music created by the Cathedral can be heard for miles around. Anyone who has listened to the C.o.T.F.W. long enough can tell many things about the wind including it's direction and strenght. If one knowes how, they can actually control the winds flowing in and out of the Cathedral to create their own music. However, this requires several people working together to block and unblock various pipes. The knowledge of how to manipulate the Cathedral is kept by The Keepers of The Winds, who will share their music on particularly special occasions.

Silverscale

2010-05-08, 01:31 PM

Shameless Bump

The Keepers of the Four Winds are a race of avian humanoids native to the Elemental Plane of Air. A colony of them have settled into the mountains surrounding Ishka. In an effort to reproduce the beautiful sounds of their native plane they created the Cathedral of The Four Winds.

Fable Wright

2010-05-08, 10:25 PM

Just curious, is there an undercity/aberration district? I know that the city is underground and all, but I had an idea about aberrations having a secret network of tunnels going nearly everywhere in the city, hidden from even the eyes. However, the aberrations charge steep rates for using the tunnels. The district that they live in is in a tunnel near the bottom of the city, leading even deeper in the earth, where it is even darker than the necropolis district. Here, aberrations, freakish members of other races, the black market, cultists, slavery, and H.P. Lovecraft all meet. It is here that aboleths buy enslaved lifeforms, children sold into slavery, and other lifeforms to turn into skum, the place where fleshwarpers and their customers meet (for non-silthilar grafts), the place where illithids come to eat brains, and where the beholder hivemothers live. The district would be huge, as most of the aberrations can't stand each other. There would be a main area where black markets meet, and tunnels going into separate wards where the different types of aberrations join. Drow also live here.The black market convenes here because the entrance to the aberration ward is guarded by illusionary walls, and the fact that the tunnel entrances constantly shift. All of the subtunnels that lead around the city would all pass through here, with the aberrations themselves charging high tolls. Certain individuals (and all of the inhabitants) instinctively know where the tunnel entrances are, and serve as guides to the black market to sellers and buyers. They are known as cave-touched, and generally are treated (relatively) well by the aberrations, for they are the ones who allow them to get food and slaves. The undercity doesn't have a leader, which lend a hand in the lack of police there, but all of the wards have individual leaders and laws, so the black market never bleeds into the residential districts, as each one has an extraordinarily complex law system. Also, although most of the city is aware that the ward exists, most inhabitants believe that it is a myth, and that it's just a fictional place made to scare kids into behaving, which is used as a name for the place the black market meets.

ForzaFiori

2010-05-09, 01:05 AM

That sounds good, save for the Drow part. I believe there is already a drow city that has been incorporated (mostly) into the city. The nobles that surrendered to Ishka are currently fighting a battle against the queen who refused to turn coat.

Owrtho

2010-05-09, 04:52 AM

Most of that seems fine, but I'd point out some of the following.
It most likely can't go almost anywhere in the city. Just to places in caves or around the outside. Unless some significant magic is involved to allow it to pass through large areas or city unnoticed where there wasn't even rock to begin with.
Also, there already is at least one place darker than Necropolis. It's called Everdark. It literally has a ban on light in public.
Just because they are aberrations and might have some behaviors that are seen as unpleasant by most other races, doesn't mean they are evil or illegal. Particularly if they have their own district in which case they can make the laws there (it could have a very competent police force and just have no laws against the habits of the aberrations, or the goings on of the black market).

Owrtho

TheLonelyScribe

2010-05-09, 07:38 AM

Not really on topic, but it turns out that WotC have already come up with a Ranger variant almost exactly like mine, thought you might like to take a look: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Ranger_Variant:_Urban_Ranger

They didn't think of the Druid variant though.

Silverscale

2010-05-09, 09:27 AM

@DMofDarkness: Though the idea is good in principle, I have to agree with everything Owrtho pointed out. It is impossible for an underground district to be as extensive as you say this one is, especially if you want it to be unknown even to The Eyes which in itself is an impossibility. If there was something that large that The Eyes did not know about then they would not be doing their job very well and would indeed have been utterly useless from the get go. The whole point of them is that they know or can find out ANYTHING.

Also you seem to be assuming that all these aberrations would A. all have an interest in Ishka to begin with (Plausible) B. would all be as evil as they're painted in the MM (Myth Busted) C. would not have fond a way to work together not only with each other but with the rest of Ishka in a reasonable manner (Myth Busted)

All that being said I think there should indeed be an Aberration District (with a better name than "Aberration District") modeled after The Necropolis, only for Aberrations instead of Undead.

BLiZme.2

2010-05-09, 02:58 PM

@ Silverscale OF coarse a library that sir is awsume also I like the cathedral of the four winds.
I also think Silverscale is spot on in his assessment of DMofDarkness's idea. I think that the district should b located on the shore of an underground lake that was formed when the tunneling branch of the streetbuilders accidentally breached the river bed and caused a major flood making a place suitable for Abolothes and into that general vicinity other aberrations congregated because it would be easier to move in to the recently abandoned do to flooding but habitable and now with the flood halted safe tunnels than try to mix with the cities general population (at least in the opinion of some aberrations) As to the name how about DeepMire?

Here are the workforged body feats I promised a week or so ago.

Porcelain body
Your body is crafted with a delicate and visually pleasing layer of fine porcelain plates serving as external armor.
Prerequisites: Workforged 1st level only
Benefit: your armor bonuses is reduced to 1 and you lose the light fortification quality common to Workforged your inherent spell failure is reduced to 5%and you can ware armor or magic robes and gain their full effect (note the armor bonus from this feat overlaps with any armor not stacks and the spell failure stacks). Further you receav a +2 competence bonus on diplomacy, bluff and gather information check where wealth is a factor
Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at first level, during character creation. Warforged druids who take this feat can cast druid spells, use the druid supernatural, and spell like abilities.

Fleshy body
Your body is covered with a convincing substitute for hominoid flesh and your inner structure bares a strong resemblance to a hominoid skeleton making it difficult to notice that you are not some kind of hominoid if your schema is not obvious.
Prerequisites: Workforged 1st level only
Benefit: you lose the normal +2 armor, and light fortification common to Workforged your inherent spell failure is reduced to 5% and you can ware armor or magic robes and gain their full effect (note the spell failure from this feat stacks with that from any armor). Further you receive a +10 racial bonus to appear as one variety of humanoid in your size category and a +5 bonuses to a pear as any other humanoid in your size category. Further you receive a +2 competence bonuses to spot, listen and move silently and your sense of taste and smell are both comparable to those of a human.
Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at first level, during character creation. Warforged druids who take this feat can cast druid spells, and use the druid supernatural and spell like abilities. If a Workforged with this feat takes any workforged feat or class feature that increases armor class or damage reduction they lose there +10 and +5 bonus to appear humanoid but retain there spot listen and move silently bonsais.

For similar feats, see races of Eberron. We could use the tracery feats from the same books for the pipe serpents who have acquired rare metal elements and eliminate the dietary requirement.

The Anarresti

2010-05-09, 03:50 PM

I haven't posted in a while, but I was reading about the abberition district and I love it. It kinda reminds me of District 9. Maybe it's a huge, sprawling place where there are quite a few inadvertent racial tensions merely because the aberrations find it hard to understand humanoid psychology and vice-versa.
Oh and I was wondering, are there any LA +0 (or +1, +2) aberrations that could be sort of your "common man," kind of how we made our spontaneous zombies, ghosts and skeletons for Ishka? Maybe Thri-Kreen?

Silverscale

2010-05-09, 04:51 PM

@BLiZme.2: The Workforged feats look good. One question, what's the physical difference between a Fleshy Body Workforged and a Similacrum?

District: DeepMire
Other names: Aberration City, Deep Lake
Police Force: ???????
Description: Built around a massive underground lake that was formed when one of the many tunnels was dug too close to the bottom of The Rowalaz River. The breech was sealed leaving behind a large area of tunnel flooded. The resulting underground lake attracted a number of Aboleths. Once they took up residence, other aberrations moved into the area yet still maintain their own neighborhoods.

Fable Wright

2010-05-09, 05:01 PM

@Owrtho:
yes, I agree that the activities would not be necessarily evil, but the practices of the aberrations are generally frowned upon by the other races, but since these activities are legal in the district is why the black market shifted there. Also, by tunnels going everywhere, I mean Everywhere. The regulars at the black market generally a) don't want to be seen in there regular excursions there, so they hire the powerful casters there (like fleshwarpers) to make permanent portals that can easily be accessed going to Deepmire (known commonly as the undercity). The more people caught on to the idea, the more portals were made, enhancing the natural system of caverns around the city. The more intelligent aberrations picked up on the marketing opportunity, paying part of the steep toll to the founder of the portal (who gets free access, as well).
@Silverscale:
A large part of the tolls are paid as bribes to keep the operatives from the eyes from telling anything or investigating the use of portals. The bribes mentioned would be able to convince a dragon to retire. Over double the hoard of a standard great wyrm. The portals are extremely valued and have a high stream of customers because the eyes don't investigate. That is how the people slip around undetected; the eyes would need a higher bribe than that to disclose information on a single portal user; no one is usually willing to part with that kind of money. Because of the high toll, only rich people and assassins (and rich assassins) use the portals. That kind of crowd generally generates enough money to keep eyes away from the operations, as well as make the portal founder rich.
@BLiZme.2:
good ideas. That's all I have to say.
@Leaf-Eater:
the huge, sprawling place you mention would be the center of the district, as there are humanoids and all types of aberrations (who have as much prejudice against each other as the humanoids have against them) mix. Although they managed to get along fairly well (killing rates down to one a week!), they still are very racist, and the only thing keeping the undercity together is the fact that they all need to trade to survive. An illithid would ideally consume 52 brains a year, and an entire community could never have the the number of brains they need unless they interacted (relatively) peacefully with the humanoid inhabitants to get their supply of requisite brains. Also, for the low LA aberration:
Herald of the Deepmasters (modifies an existing racial template):
Type changes to aberration
+2 int, +2 strength, -4 wisdom: The cave-touched are shrewd, as the aberrations they serve, but have a mindset unlike either humanoids or aberrations, but as they need to communicate with both, they keep their charisma, despite being at odds with the both sides. The experience drives them somewhat mad.
In addition, cave-touched do not suffer disadvantages from grafts (e.g., no more -4 penalty on will checks when wearing an illithid graft), as they have a bit of genetics from all of the inhabitants, but they have some parts of said heritage showing, which gives them a -2 penalty (can be changed) on disguise checks.
+2 on Will saves: the cave-touched are constantly around a mire of entities that would have their minds (I'm looking at you, neogi) if given half a chance, so they constantly have trained their minds to resist outside influence. However, this has caused them to be constantly shifty and mistrusting, causing a -2 penalty on diplomacy checks.
Locate portal: cave-touched instinctively know where the nearest portal to the undercity is. However, they have a -2 penalty on urban survival checks because they constantly find themselves drawn to the portals.

It is a modification to an existing race because a) cave-touched are needed in every part of the city, and b) I can't think of a low-level aberration power that is unique enough for a low-LA aberration.