PDA

View Full Version : Polymorph fix



HamHam
2009-08-03, 04:32 PM
I've been thinking about how to fix polymorph to be good but not broken. The idea I have is kind of kludgy but is at least simple.

Change range to Personal. Duration to 1 round per level.

Choose a creature with CR less than or equal to your caster level, max 15. You replace your character sheet with it's stat block.

When this spell ends, any effects you created while polymorphed (whether by magic, SLAs, Ex, Su, or any other kind of abilities) that are not killing something, petrifying something, dealing damage to something, or similar end regardless of their original duration, even if permanent or instentanious (thus any wishes that gave stat bonuses or created items or anything other than killing things have said stats, items, etc magically disappear).

-------------------

How balanced would this be, assuming you also fixed any monsters which are obviously overpowered for their CR?

Eldariel
2009-08-03, 04:40 PM
CR would change nothing 'cause generally the things you change into have less CR than HD anyways (because they tend to normally be big dumb brutes; they're just much more frightening when they suddenly become geniuses with insane spellcasting prowess and tons of buffs on).

The Pathfinder fix is a decent way to go; even just making the bonuses enchantment instead of replacing your stats would be great. And making Shapechange have an actual material component instead of just having a focus would rock.


And yeah, 1 round/level-duration, but Touch as a range instead of Personal - Personal just makes them Persistable, and just serves to further the caster-noncaster gap in power while keeping them as Touch allows the casters to buff the noncasters with them (keeping them as team playing spells) while also making them unpersistable.

jmbrown
2009-08-03, 04:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with polymorph. You don't gain anything the monster has except extraordinary attacks so this:


When this spell ends, any effects you created while polymorphed (whether by magic, SLAs, Ex, Su, or any other kind of abilities) that are not killing something, petrifying something, dealing damage to something, or similar end regardless of their original duration, even if permanent or instentanious (thus any wishes that gave stat bonuses or created items or anything other than killing things have said stats, items, etc magically disappear).


Has no point, really. The problem with polymorph is that there are monsters with abilities way beyond their HD and the player is "assumed" to know about all of them. I would simply add this after the first paragraph:

"To assume the chosen form you must succeed at a knowledge check appropriate to the creature in question (arcana for dragons, dungeoneering for aberrations, etc). The DC is equal to 15 + the chosen creature's HD. Failure means the spell fails."

I would change this:


It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.


to this

"You may also gain one or more extraordinary special attacks possessed by the new form. You gain an additional special attack for every 5 points above the creature's knowledge DC."

The knowledge check would be made each time even if you've polymorphed into the creature before. This represents the erratic behaviour of magic and the fact that a wizard is essentially reciting a text book's worth of knowledge in 6 seconds. Knowledge is fleeting and people make mistakes. Your average knowledgable wizard has more than a 50% chance to succeed but there's always that looming thought of failure.

oxybe
2009-08-03, 04:45 PM
the CR thing is ok, but still doesn't stop the 7th level wizard from turning into the 7HD, CR7 Remorhaz (one of the better core forms, IMO). a lot of forms have a CR lower then the wizard's Caster level while still retaining a good HD. things to consider are forms like the very young gold dragon, an 11 HD creature with CR 7.

the other issue is caster level boosting tricks/items/abilities could be used to get forms faster then normal.

the flat out stat swap is different, but it causes one major problem: mental stats. for some creatures (like animals) this would cause the caster to lose himself in the form entirely.

remember: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

many oozes, plants and vermins don't have any int so for the next "caster level" number of rounds, the combat gains a "wild card"

Jack_Simth
2009-08-03, 04:59 PM
I've been thinking about how to fix polymorph to be good but not broken. The idea I have is kind of kludgy but is at least simple.

Change range to Personal. Duration to 1 round per level.

Choose a creature with CR less than or equal to your caster level, max 15. You replace your character sheet with it's stat block.

When this spell ends, any effects you created while polymorphed (whether by magic, SLAs, Ex, Su, or any other kind of abilities) that are not killing something, petrifying something, dealing damage to something, or similar end regardless of their original duration, even if permanent or instentanious (thus any wishes that gave stat bonuses or created items or anything other than killing things have said stats, items, etc magically disappear).

-------------------

How balanced would this be, assuming you also fixed any monsters which are obviously overpowered for their CR?

Good start, but there's a couple of things:
1) You need to make sure to note that you translate damage by some means; otherwise, the Wizard casts, tanks, and just casts again rather than needing to worry about HP.
2) You need to explicitly cut off the wizard's currently-active spells and the Wizard's castable spells while he assumes the form; otherwise, you've got a Hydra that's buffed up with multiple Energy Immunities, Greater Magic Fang, and so on, that can still cast some spells (those prepared with Still Spell / Silent Spell / Eschew Materials as appropriate).
3) You need to explicitly cap at the Wizard's hit dice (below would be preferable, but at is acceptable) rather than the Wizard's caster level - as caster level can get considerably higher than hit dice, if you don't do this you end up with 10th level Wizards turning into CR 12+ beasties.
4) You need to require that prepared casters need to select the critter at the time of preparation. Otherwise, it's still the "can handle any situation" go-to spell effect.

But the bit about touch range, personal range, or short range? Doesn't actually matter.

HamHam
2009-08-03, 05:13 PM
There's nothing wrong with polymorph. You don't gain anything the monster has except extraordinary attacks so this:



Has no point, really.

That wouldn't apply anymore, obviously. You gain all of the forms abilities with this version.


the CR thing is ok, but still doesn't stop the 7th level wizard from turning into the 7HD, CR7 Remorhaz (one of the better core forms, IMO). a lot of forms have a CR lower then the wizard's Caster level while still retaining a good HD. things to consider are forms like the very young gold dragon, an 11 HD creature with CR 7.

I don't really see the problem. Assuming the CR is appropriate, HD is irrelevant.


the flat out stat swap is different, but it causes one major problem: mental stats. for some creatures (like animals) this would cause the caster to lose himself in the form entirely.

remember: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

many oozes, plants and vermins don't have any int so for the next "caster level" number of rounds, the combat gains a "wild card"

Well, add something about being in control of the form regardless of your new mental stats. Because it's magic.


Good start, but there's a couple of things:
1) You need to make sure to note that you translate damage by some means; otherwise, the Wizard casts, tanks, and just casts again rather than needing to worry about HP.

If your HP when the spell ends is less than your hit points when you cast it, your HP changes to the former value?


2) You need to explicitly cut off the wizard's currently-active spells and the Wizard's castable spells while he assumes the form; otherwise, you've got a Hydra that's buffed up with multiple Energy Immunities, Greater Magic Fang, and so on, that can still cast some spells (those prepared with Still Spell / Silent Spell / Eschew Materials as appropriate).

Your character sheet is gone. Including everything on it and thus on your character. You use the monsters stats from the MM straight up, no modification.


3) You need to explicitly cap at the Wizard's hit dice (below would be preferable, but at is acceptable) rather than the Wizard's caster level - as caster level can get considerably higher than hit dice, if you don't do this you end up with 10th level Wizards turning into CR 12+ beasties.

Would this be a super huge problem however?


4) You need to require that prepared casters need to select the critter at the time of preparation. Otherwise, it's still the "can handle any situation" go-to spell effect.

That seems too restrictive. You would basically only ever use one optimal for for each level. Which isn't very fun.

Jack_Simth
2009-08-03, 05:48 PM
If your HP when the spell ends is less than your hit points when you cast it, your HP changes to the former value?

So if I have 50 HP in my normal Wizard form, and turn into something 200 hp, then take 150 damage, when the spell ends... my hit point total is 50?

Because that's exactly the effect of what you just wrote. Maybe translate damage, instead?


Your character sheet is gone. Including everything on it and thus on your character. You use the monsters stats from the MM straight up, no modification.
Yes. But that needs to be explicit if you plan on using it in-play.

Of course, this also means that if I polymorph into, say, a Ghaele, I get a full compliment of Cleric spells to burn as I want.

Eww. I use a 4th level spell out of combat to get a Heal going with the Ghaele. That's... umm... hmm.


Would this be a super huge problem however?

Define "Super Huge", and I'll have a better answer for you. But when it's possible for a 10th level character to turn into a 12th, 13th, or higher CR beasty? It can, especially with D&D scaling on CR.

That seems too restrictive. You would basically only ever use one optimal for for each level. Which isn't very fun.
Yeah, but without that, or something like it, you get the combinatorial explosion.

jmbrown
2009-08-03, 05:49 PM
Would this be a super huge problem however?

Yes! The problem with polymorph is that

A) There are monsters with abilities that extend far beyond their HD.

B) Polymorph heals you

C) You can target anyone

and

D) Polymorph assumes the wizard has knowledge of the entire laundry list of monsters in existence.

Watch how easy it is for me to break your system!

Broken McHax
Level 7 wizard transmutation domain (unearthed arcana)
Feat: Minor Shapeshift (complete mage)
Feat: Arcane Thesis Polymorph (players handbook 2)

I'm now casting polymorph as an 11th level caster while only being an 7th level character. I get into a fight. Polymorph into a hezrou. Using your rules, I have access to all of his abilities.

BLASPHEMY AS A 13TH LEVEL CASTER.

Everyone's dazed, paralyzed, and weakened. What's that? You're not a native of a the prime? Will save or go home please.

Under your rules, the effect ends when the spell ends but my fighter's can easily make 7 coup de grace don't you think? Dismissal is a permanent, instantaneous effect (and it may even send someone to a completely separate plane) so if you tell me he comes back at the end of the spell duration I'm going to pitch a fit.

edit: at level 11 I could polymorph into an astral deva and have holy word, heal, and like 20 cure abilities. Under your rules, would the cures "disappear" because they're not directly killing someone?

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 05:52 PM
I'm now casting polymorph as an 11th level caster while only being an 7th level character. I get into a fight. Polymorph into a hezrou. Using your rules, I have access to all of his abilities.

BLASPHEMY AS A 13TH LEVEL CASTER.

Everyone's dazed, paralyzed, and weakened. What's that? You're not a native of a the prime? Will save or go home please.

Dismissal is a permanent, instantaneous effect so if you tell me he comes back at the end of the spell duration I'm going to pitch a fit.

Polymorph doesnt grant SLAs

jmbrown
2009-08-03, 05:54 PM
Polymorph doesnt grant SLAs

Under HamHam's rule it does.


Choose a creature with CR less than or equal to your caster level, max 15. You replace your character sheet with it's stat block.

By default, polymorph doesn't give you anything except special attacks because monsters, like outsiders, have access to ridiculous feats of magic three or four times above their HD and CR.

The problem you need to fix isn't the duration or range. The problem is the healing, the ability to target something as insignificant as your familiar or a small willing child, and the fact that polymorph is based on your caster level, which as I've proven in the post above, can be bloated to ridiculously high numbers.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-03, 06:04 PM
The easiest way to fix polymorph or shapechane or wildshape...limit what you can polymorph to according to caster level. For ex, the shapeshift variant druid from PHBII. Or for ex, you could have a list of allowed forms, like the list of Summon X creatures.

HamHam
2009-08-03, 06:16 PM
So if I have 50 HP in my normal Wizard form, and turn into something 200 hp, then take 150 damage, when the spell ends... my hit point total is 50?

Yes. This doesn't seem unbalancing to me.


Of course, this also means that if I polymorph into, say, a Ghaele, I get a full compliment of Cleric spells to burn as I want.

Eww. I use a 4th level spell out of combat to get a Heal going with the Ghaele. That's... umm... hmm.

Using your 4th level slots for out of combat healing does not seem very powerful to me.


A) There are monsters with abilities that extend far beyond their HD.

Well that's why I'm changing it to CR.


B) Polymorph heals you

Got rid of that.


C) You can target anyone

Got rid of that.


D) Polymorph assumes the wizard has knowledge of the entire laundry list of monsters in existence.

Well he should, he's a wizard.


Watch how easy it is for me to break your system!

Broken McHax
Level 7 wizard transmutation domain (unearthed arcana)
Feat: Minor Shapeshift (complete mage)
Feat: Arcane Thesis Polymorph (players handbook 2)

I'm now casting polymorph as an 11th level caster while only being an 7th level character. I get into a fight. Polymorph into a hezrou. Using your rules, I have access to all of his abilities.

BLASPHEMY AS A 13TH LEVEL CASTER.

Everyone's dazed, paralyzed, and weakened. What's that? You're not a native of a the prime? Will save or go home please.

Under your rules, the effect ends when the spell ends but my fighter's can easily make 7 coup de grace don't you think? Dismissal is a permanent, instantaneous effect (and it may even send someone to a completely separate plane) so if you tell me he comes back at the end of the spell duration I'm going to pitch a fit.

Decent point. Are you sure the problem here isn't with Blasphemy though? And the Hezrou's CR. It probably shouldn't be CR 11 given that it can auto-daze anything with 12 or fewer HD, which includes level 11 PCs. And Blasphemy should be changed as well because it is stupidly overpowered.


edit: at level 11 I could polymorph into an astral deva and have holy word, heal, and like 20 cure abilities. Under your rules, would the cures "disappear" because they're not directly killing someone?

Again, healing is not a very powerful ability. I would say that healed hit points would stay healed, but anything else (curring diseases, poisons, ability damage, etc) would not.

jmbrown
2009-08-03, 06:30 PM
Well that's why I'm changing it to CR.

CR is more of a problem than HD! A roc and T-rex have 18 hit dice but only 8 CR (cr 9 for a roc). My level 7 wizard could polymorph into a roc, pick multiple enemies up, fly updwards 200 feet, then drop them for 200d6 damage. Try breaking free of my +37 grapple.


Yes. This doesn't seem unbalancing to me.

Giving a wizard 200 hp isn't unbalancing? This is worse than healing when you polymorph. You can polymorph into a high HD creature with a small CR (as I motioned above), soak up all the damage from a particular attack, then polymorph back into a normal wizard without a scratch.


Well he should, he's a wizard.

Just because he's a wizard doesn't mean he has max ranks in every single skill. A wizard only gets 2+int skill points. Spread out among spellcraft and concentration, his two most necessary feats, he's left with three or four knowledge skills to max out. That's only covers maybe half the list of monsters he could possible change into.


Decent point. Are you sure the problem here isn't with Blasphemy though? And the Hezrou's CR. It probably shouldn't be CR 11 given that it can auto-daze anything with 12 or fewer HD, which includes level 11 PCs. And Blasphemy should be changed as well because it is stupidly overpowered.

Blasphemy and Holy Word are disgusting but the problem is with your changes to polymorph. Even without these two spells I can use greater teleport. At level 7, I have free reign to travel anywhere in the world without error. My level 7 character can plane shift as a couatl.

It's easier to change one spell than change every other spell as a result.


Again, healing is not a very powerful ability. I would say that healed hit points would stay healed, but anything else (curring diseases, poisons, ability damage, etc) would not.

Not a powerful ability? The Heal spell an astral deva gets removes all negative effects. The deva can go invisible at will, plane shift, holy aura at will, dispel magic at will...

HamHam
2009-08-03, 06:50 PM
CR is more of a problem than HD! A roc and T-rex have 18 hit dice but only 8 CR (cr 9 for a roc). My level 7 wizard could polymorph into a roc, pick multiple enemies up, fly updwards 200 feet, then drop them for 200d6 damage. Try breaking free of my +37 grapple.

Either it's only +17, or you can only move at 40 ft per round.


Giving a wizard 200 hp isn't unbalancing? This is worse than healing when you polymorph. You can polymorph into a high HD creature with a small CR (as I motioned above), soak up all the damage from a particular attack, then polymorph back into a normal wizard without a scratch.

Having lots of hit points is not a game breaking ability.


Just because he's a wizard doesn't mean he has max ranks in every single skill. A wizard only gets 2+int skill points. Spread out among spellcraft and concentration, his two most necessary feats, he's left with three or four knowledge skills to max out. That's only covers maybe half the list of monsters he could possible change into.

Tying what you know about monsters strictly to knowledge checks is kind of dumb. It requires excessive contorsioning between IC and OOC knowledge, and leads to silly things like level 10 characters of any class that don't know that trolls have regeneration.


Blasphemy and Holy Word are disgusting but the problem is with your changes to polymorph. Even without these two spells I can use greater teleport. At level 7, I have free reign to travel anywhere in the world without error. My level 7 character can plane shift as a couatl.

For the duration of the polymorph.

jmbrown
2009-08-03, 06:57 PM
Either it's only +17, or you can only move at 40 ft per round.
Snatch, deal automatic damage, fling updwards 1d6x10', they land prone and take damage, repeat.


Tying what you know about monsters strictly to knowledge checks is kind of dumb. It requires excessive contorsioning between IC and OOC knowledge, and leads to silly things like level 10 characters of any class that don't know that trolls have regeneration.

No, a level 10 character who's never seen a troll before shouldn't know that trolls have regeneration. Even then, a character who has fought a troll should only know that "hey, this troll is only damaged by fire!" Knowledge represents information far beyond the ken of the average person. A wizard with the appropriate knowledge not only understands what the ability is but they understand how it works and how to apply it.


For the duration of the polymorph.

So I teleport and... when the duration is over I teleport back?


Having lots of hit points is not a game breaking ability.

Okay, I'm not going to argue with you any more on this subject.

HamHam
2009-08-03, 07:58 PM
Snatch, deal automatic damage, fling updwards 1d6x10', they land prone and take damage, repeat.

Okay? Do you really think this compares favorably to what you could be doing as a Warblade/Cleric/etc at that level?

Still, I am convinced that capping it by CR = ECL is better than caster level.


No, a level 10 character who's never seen a troll before shouldn't know that trolls have regeneration.

That's like saying that because I've never seen a cheetah before, I don't know that they run fast.

Stuff like the existence and basic abilities of common monsters is not specialized knowledge, and is a DC 10 check.


So I teleport and... when the duration is over I teleport back?

Yes.

Eldariel
2009-08-03, 08:07 PM
Still, I am convinced that capping it by CR = ECL is better than caster level.

CR shouldn't be used as a game metric; it's simply a vague tool for DMs. HD is much better anyways - many monsters have inflated CR because of their spell-likes and mentals, which are trivial for Polymorph while others have low CR (you know Fleshraker is CR 2, right?) for what they give you.

There's a reason PCs don't use CR-based rules for character creation; those rules are quite abusable. Also, a Brown Bear isn't very scary 'cause it lacks movement modes, speed, AC, attack bonuses and such but its base stats are really nice. Add high mentals, (feats), ability to self-buff and such to it (basically, what being a caster does) and suddenly it's a ****ing beast.


Keep CR away from game mechanics. CR is one of the worst balanced parts of 3.5 and overall arbitrary; using it as a metric for anything is a surefire way to screw things up bad.

HamHam
2009-08-03, 08:10 PM
CR shouldn't be used as a game metric; it's simply a vague tool for DMs.

I disagree. It should be a metric of power level, far better than HD. Some printed stuff has messed up CR, yes, but that is easy enough to fix.

Eldariel
2009-08-03, 08:18 PM
I disagree. It should be a metric of power level, far better than HD. Some printed stuff has messed up CR, yes, but that is easy enough to fix.

Fixing core CR would require rewriting every single monster's entry. Same would need to then be done to every subsequent book containing monsters to make the thing logical. All martial monsters tend to be 1-2 CRs too high for the real challenge (and many are totally trivial vs. casters and monsters vs. martial types) while many caster monsters are multiple CRs too low, and especially iconic boss monsters tend to have very low CR for their power.

Also, some abilities in the hands of PCs are far more devastating than in the hands of monsters since PCs retain them throughout the campaign and gaining the ability to grant Wishes as SLAs or some such is something PCs should NEVER EVER have access to (even if they end, the damage is done when the ability is used). But the real problem is, many lowish CR brutes are balanced by their lack of proper defenses to magic (think simple Ogre or Fire Giant, or Purple Worm for that matter) and being able to turn into one while having access to your own magical defenses (or your allies' magic for that matter) makes you a fcking Tarrasque - completely unkillable and an utter monster.