[3.5] Balancing the Base Classes with Overhauling Them

[The Neoclassic]

...Can it be done? I'm sure there's a thousand already-explored possibilities, but I don't want to entirely change how magic works or redo class abilities. I only want minor changes to the crunch, not entirely reinvented classes. I also tend to run games with a lot of roleplay and not too much hack-n-slash, so I don't need all classes to be equally amazing in combat. However, even I realize that fighters are sadly underpowered while wizards are pretty darn powerful. :smallsigh:

My fixes thus far are:

Wizards can only write spells into their spellbook to which they have reasonable access. This means any off of the core/SRD list (that's allowed for wizards, of course) for their automatic two per level, and for any others, they must actually find a spellbook or a spellcaster willing to lend them their spellbook. Or scrolls I suppose.
Bards can be lawful. OK, that's just a flavor thing, not a balance thing. :smalltongue:


... Yeah, OK, I still have a lot of work to do.

I was thinking of maybe changing the Fighter into a more well-rounded individual: A few more skills, 4 + Int mod for skills, and good Ref as well as Fort save. It wouldn't fix everything, certainly, but it might be better.

I plan on eventually using this fixes for my campaign setting which means I may reject some changes in favor of flavor. I have no interest in splatbook material. I'm hoping to eventually put up my material on a website of my own, so if you don't want me borrowing your suggestions and integrating them into something I may be posting elsewhere and taking credit for, don't post. Of course, if there are any good major suggestions, I'm sure I'd be willing to include a footnote noting who originally helped me come up with the idea. :smallsmile:

Thanks in advance!

[Aneantir]

I was thinking of maybe changing the Fighter into a more well-rounded individual: A few more skills, 4 + Int mod for skills, and good Ref as well as Fort save. It wouldn't fix everything, certainly, but it might be better.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=681572

Post four of the page has a fighter class. It`s crazy good, I suggest toning down a couple of the abilities (Cough Foil Action Cough), but it`s really good, and gives the fighter tons more awesome.

[Yora]

Wizards can only write spells into their spellbook to which they have reasonable access. This means any off of the core/SRD list (that's allowed for wizards, of course) for their automatic two per level, and for any others, they must actually find a spellbook or a spellcaster willing to lend them their spellbook. Or scrolls I suppose.
Doesn't change as thing, as many of the worst offender are found on that list.

All classes: Raise Skill points per level by +2.

Cleric: No heavy armor proficiency.

Ranger: The effective druid level to determine the bonuses to animal companions is the ranger level -3. (Instead of ranger level/2, like the turn undead power of the paladin.)

Rogue: Sneak Attack is a standard attack. It can not be done as part of a full attack. Makes the rogue less of a Dexterity Warrior, if you want the class to fit more in the thief role.

[The Neoclassic]

Doesn't change as thing, as many of the worst offender are found on that list.

Really? Because most of the Batmanning I've heard about seems to involve, at the least, being able to get any core spell in their spellbook basically whenever they need/want it. And which spells are particularly OP? If there's a quick short list, I could just tweak those.

[The Rose Dragon]

Ranger: The effective druid level to determine the bonuses to animal companions is the ranger level -3. (Instead of ranger level/2, like the turn undead power of the paladin.)

Here's a radical idea: the effective ranger level of druid is equal to druid level / 2. Rangers get full Animal Companion progression.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Can't be done. First, you have to go through and ban any utterly game-breaking spell, the majority of which are core. Then you have to make it so the casters can't attack every defense on an enemy. Then you need to make it so that caster buffs aren't more important that entire builds.

Now lets look at melee. First, we need to fix the full-attack mechanic. Then we need to make it so that melee can attack defenses other than AC/HP. Then reduce melee magic item dependance. Then give non-casters viable out-of-combat roles. Make it so that weapon choice has a meaningful impact on the game. Make TWF not suck. Make a way for non-SA builds to deal damage besides Power Attack. Make archery viable.

And do all of this without overhauling entire classes. Yeah. That will work. If you would allow splatbooks, about 2 can fix everything, but sticking to core, you're pretty much either going to have to rewrite the system or live with imbalance.

[woodenbandman]

Rogue: Sneak Attack is a standard attack. It can not be done as part of a full attack. Makes the rogue less of a Dexterity Warrior, if you want the class to fit more in the thief role.

What? No. Ever played a rogue with this rule in effect? Ever do any damage that way? No, thought not.

Rogues are fine, they get hosed enough. leave them alone.

[AstralFire]

Doesn't change as thing, as many of the worst offender are found on that list.

All classes: Raise Skill points per level by +2.

Sure.


Cleric: No heavy armor proficiency.

A... start, I suppose.


Ranger: The effective druid level to determine the bonuses to animal companions is the ranger level -3. (Instead of ranger level/2, like the turn undead power of the paladin.)

Sounds fine.


Rogue: Sneak Attack is a standard attack. It can not be done as part of a full attack. Makes the rogue less of a Dexterity Warrior, if you want the class to fit more in the thief role.

Hey guy, we heard you like being useless. So we underpowered your underpower, so you can get ganked while you (try to) gank.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

...Can it be done?
Sure. Nerf the spells and metamagic feats of the spell casters. Different feel but more balanced.

And. If you want to make the fighting classes more fun...add combat maneuvers.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

.
Wizards can only write spells into their spellbook to which they have reasonable access. This means any off of the core/SRD list (that's allowed for wizards, of course) for their automatic two per level, and for any others, they must actually find a spellbook or a spellcaster willing to lend them their spellbook. Or scrolls I suppose.

Contingency, Polymorph, PAO, Shapechange, Gate, and etc are all core.

[Draz74]

There are very few non-Core spells that can compete with the best Core spells for broken-ness. Celerity (and its variations) and Shivering Touch are the only ones I can think of, off the top of my head (thanks Frosty :smallwink:).

[Frosty]

Shivering Touch is pretty bad.

[Doc Roc]

I am working on a full end-to-end rewrite of fighter. I'd love some help.

[magellan]

Wizards can only write spells into their spellbook to which they have reasonable access. This means any off of the core/SRD list (that's allowed for wizards, of course) for their automatic two per level, and for any others, they must actually find a spellbook or a spellcaster willing to lend them their spellbook. Or scrolls I suppose.
Thanks in advance!

You know, thats how it was in 2nd ed. Except that you didn't get 2 automatics per level, and to get a spell from the list without a teacher you had to spend considerable time researching it. Yes: It was entirely possible to have a spellslot without a spell to fill it, and it also actually happened.

Just saying...

[Myrmex]

As long as you limit or rid the game of the really borked spells, give fighter-types more than "I hit it", then classes will be reasonably balanced. Most of the save-or-dies from level 1 to 10 only hurt humanoids or non-plant, non-undead, non-constructs. They are slightly more effective than a well-built rogue, but you only get a few of them/day, and/or at the expense of something else. Save-or-lose and save-or-sucks are really awesome, but they won't let you do much without a team to mop up the opposition.

Get rid of metamagic reducers. Clerics really aren't that spectacular when they spend the first 4 rounds of a battle buffing. Remove Natural Spell and use the Shapeshifting variant in PHB2.

[Yora]

What? No. Ever played a rogue with this rule in effect? Ever do any damage that way? No, thought not.
That's the point! I don't think a rogue should be as good a warrior as the fighter. Of course, you can play a game where rogues are a warrior class, and you can play such a game with D&D. But you don't have to.
I want fighters and barbarians, and to a lesser degree paladins and rangers to be the kings of melee combat. Rogues and bards should shine at other moments of the game. That's what that rule is for.

[Eldariel]

That's the point! I don't think a rogue should be as good a warrior as the fighter. Of course, you can play a game where rogues are a warrior class, and you can play such a game with D&D. But you don't have to.
I want fighters and barbarians, and to a lesser degree paladins and rangers to be the kings of melee combat. Rogues and bards should shine at other moments of the game. That's what that rule is for.

But they already are. Sneak Attack makes Rogue a glass cannon capable of doing something other than rolling Bluff & Intimidate for minor effects in combat. He still deals less damage than focused warriors (courtesy of Power Attack) and more importantly, hits worse and can't take punishment worth a heck himself thus not really being qualified for a frontliner.

I suggest no nerfs there. If anything, buff it vs. things normally immune to it - give the Rogue the ability to deal HALF his SA to things normally immune, at least with a Knowledge-check or something. That'd make a warrior Rogue a bit less "on-off" (right now, you can kick Humanoids' ass, but that CR 3 Skeleton is still gonna kick your butt...not to mention, anything with Fortifications). Also, the ability to apply half his SA up to 60' would make sniper Rogue a bit more doable without having to resort to a fckton of magic.


Not every Rogue needs to be a warrior, but having the option in there is a good thing IMHO, especially since they still lose out to true warriors.

[Myrmex]

That's the point! I don't think a rogue should be as good a warrior as the fighter. Of course, you can play a game where rogues are a warrior class, and you can play such a game with D&D. But you don't have to.
I want fighters and barbarians, and to a lesser degree paladins and rangers to be the kings of melee combat. Rogues and bards should shine at other moments of the game. That's what that rule is for.

With light armor, d6 HD, a dependence on full attacks and precision damage, rogues aren't really encroaching on the full BAB classes, combatwise.

[elliott20]

every single time one of these threads pop up, you usually end up with the following suggestions:

1. get rid of core classes
2. Use TOB classes for melee, use beguiler, warmage, cloistered-priest, and one more wizard-y class that escapes me at the moment

generally, this replaces the tier 1 and tier 5 classes with mostly tier 2-4 classes, which are much closer in strength.

[kamikasei]

1. get rid of core classes

Not all of them. Barbarian and Rogue are okay.


2. Use TOB classes for melee, use beguiler, warmage, cloistered-priest, and one more wizard-y class that escapes me at the moment

Cloistered Cleric isn't really worse off than a regular cleric. What you want is to remove the core full casters and use a) the focused arcanists (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer), b) Binders and Warlocks, and c) psionics instead.

You're a little low on divinity there, but Ardent can help cover. Non-core divine and arcane classes can be taken case-by-case, but most full casters will probably not be welcome. Cloistered Cleric can be made to work if combat self-buffs like Divine Power are removed.

This will not achieve actual balance, but will remove some of the most (accidentally!) breakable classes and inherently broken options and tend towards more out-of-the-box optimized characters with a lower ceiling, closing the gap somewhat, as well as giving non-casters a better ability to contribute in their niche (and leaving them with one in the first place).

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Since your doing all that to ban abuse, why not simply keep everything and ban abuses as they come? In actual play, it's not that bad.

Either that or play 4e. 4e is a fun game.

This fascination and emphasis with balance over everything else, even if it costs redoing and overdoing work, I'll never understand. Maybe these are how true neutral oitsiders would behave...

[The Neoclassic]

This fascination and emphasis with balance over everything else, even if it costs redoing and overdoing work, I'll never understand.

Where did you get this "over everything else" idea? I already stated I don't want to do it if it'll take a lot of changing or if it even interferes with the fluff of my setting. I think you're confusing my request for a little more balance with an obsession with balance, or else you're referring to other people rather than my original request. :smalltongue:

I'll respond to some of the other points later. Gotta go make breakfast!

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Where did you get this "over everything else" idea? I already stated I don't want to do it if it'll take a lot of changing or if it even interferes with the fluff of my setting. I apologize for ranting in your general direction.


I'll respond to some of the other points later. Gotta go make breakfast!
A balanced breakfast is the most important meal of the day!

[The Neoclassic]

Can't be done.


And do all of this without overhauling entire classes. Yeah. That will work.

Mmm, sarcasm. Delicious.


If you would allow splatbooks, about 2 can fix everything, but sticking to core, you're pretty much either going to have to rewrite the system or live with imbalance.

Live with some imbalance then I suppose. :smallbiggrin: My stance on splatbooks is nonnegotiable, as much as I know some people are head-over-heels in love with them. But this is about minor fixes to make balance better, not trying to convince me to use splatbooks, so continuing on...


All classes: Raise Skill points per level by +2.

I don't see how that would help. However, I actually like the idea, simply since it'd encourage more flexibility and skills use, which would fit very well with my world's fluff and my preferred playing style.


Cleric: No heavy armor proficiency.

As someone else mentioned, won't fix much, but nevertheless I think I'll go with that.


Contingency, Polymorph, PAO, Shapechange, Gate, and etc are all core.

Polymorph and Shapechange... What can be done with those to make them overpowered? Just because you can change yourself to be something with supercrazy physical attacks too easily? You can tell I don't use high level spells much. :smalltongue: However, it seems like there should be some pretty easy fixes to the spell, in that case, to restrict such things. I'll have to go look up the other spells to refresh my memory on exactly why they'd cause overpoweredness.


You didn't get 2 automatics per level, and to get a spell from the list without a teacher you had to spend considerable time researching it. Yes: It was entirely possible to have a spellslot without a spell to fill it, and it also actually happened.

Well, would that help then if I got rid of the 2 automatics per level? That seems very fluff-reasonable and would allow the DM to very easily restrict player access to potentially overpowered spells. Perhaps Gate is only known by a handful of secretive wizards in a far-off land, for example. Actually, that would make a lot of sense; in my world, a lot of magic is used for more mundane/practical applications, so it should be harder to find pure damage spells (good for adventurers) as opposed to ones that create sources of water or help support buildings.


every single time one of these threads pop up, you usually end up with the following suggestions:

1. get rid of core classes
2. Use TOB classes for melee, use beguiler, warmage, cloistered-priest, and one more wizard-y class that escapes me at the moment

generally, this replaces the tier 1 and tier 5 classes with mostly tier 2-4 classes, which are much closer in strength.

Well, hopefully if people read my opening post, they'll realize such suggestions are utterly useless to me as I don't do noncore. Well, other than homebrew. :smalltongue:


Since your doing all that to ban abuse, why not simply keep everything and ban abuses as they come? In actual play, it's not that bad.

True. Especially since I don't tend to play with uber-optimizer sorts.


Either that or play 4e. 4e is a fun game.

I'm sticking with 3.5 for several reasons (and I won't get into them lest an edition war begins). Thanks though.


Also, sorry about the double post. :smallsmile:

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Polymorph is easily one if not the most abusable lower level spell. Why would you not buff the fighter to walk around polymorphed into a war troll or something similar, all the time.

Shapechange is begging to be abused. Blasphemy at will, extra actions in combat? Sure? Why not? Just pick the right monster.

To limit polymorph, all you have to do is limit how much buffing the spell can do compared to othe 4th level spells.

To limit shapechange...well you really just have to limit what forms can be taken and what abilities those forms have...

[quick_comment]

I am working on a full end-to-end rewrite of fighter. I'd love some help.

Ill help. Is there a work in progress thread on the homebrew forums?

[Siosilvar]

To illustrate the problems with the Polymorph line, I'll use Alter Self as an example.

Troglodyte: +6 Natural Armor, claw/claw/bite attack. Either one of these effects is a 2nd level spell on its own.

Merfolk: Grabs you water breathing (admittedly, a 3rd level spell with a much longer duration) and a swim speed.

Lizardfolk: +5 Natural Armor, claw/claw/bite attack.

Bugbear: Scent, +3 Natural Armor. Probably on par with other second-level spells, however.

[AstralFire]

That's the point! I don't think a rogue should be as good a warrior as the fighter. Of course, you can play a game where rogues are a warrior class, and you can play such a game with D&D. But you don't have to.
I want fighters and barbarians, and to a lesser degree paladins and rangers to be the kings of melee combat. Rogues and bards should shine at other moments of the game. That's what that rule is for.

They're not even close. I don't think you understand how easy immunity to sneak attack is to get, and how relatively difficult it is to counter it. It's doable, but rogue is not winning any damage contests except TWF at level 4 against a tied up man.

[quick_comment]

Not to mention, rogues are also sort of squishy.

Rogues do well in groups built around rogues. For instance - in a group with a white raven martial adept, a bard with dragonfire inspiration, a barbarian and a rogue, I think the rogue might be able to out damage the fighter. The white raven maneuvers lets the rogue sneak attack the targets, and dragonfire inspiration boosts the rogues damage by a ton.

Except this party is basically focused on the rogue, so its really comparing 3 characters to 1 barbarian.

[Telonius]

I'm sure I've posted these before in some format or other, but here are some of my houserules to help balance things in Core.


Class
- Remove favored classes. Multiclass is free.
- There can be Lawful Barbarians, Lawful Bards, and Chaotic Monks.
- All Clerics are Cloistered Clerics.
- Clerics gain proficiency with their deity's favored weapon. (War domain still gives them the Weapon Focus feat).
- Clerics gain Sense Motive as a class skill.
- Paladins take the alignment of their deity (if any) and must act as a prime example of the ideals of their deity, philosophy, or cause.
- Monks get full BAB, proficiency with Gauntlets (which are also a Monk weapon), and can spend time/gold/xp enchanting their own body as though it were a weapon/armor.
- Sorcerers get free Eschew Materials at first, and their HD improves to d6.
- Rogues get an additional Rogue Ability at level 20.
- Knowledge (Religion) is now on the Druid class skill list.
- Druids use the Shapeshift variant

Skills
- Open Lock and Disable Device are rolled into one skill.
- Balance and Tumble are now one skill.
- Listen and Spot are now one skill.

Feats
- Remove the +1 BAB requirement for the Weapon Finesse feat
- Metamagic feats do not take more time for spontaneous casters
- Natural Spell is stricken from the game.
- The Two-Weapon Fighting feat now scales to include extra attacks with each iterative Attack. Improved Two-Weapon fighting lessens the penalty by 1 for each attack. Greater Two-Weapon fighting lessens the penalty by an additional 1.
- Toughness grants you HP equal to your current HD.
- Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization grant a bonus equal to 2 + (BAB/4) to attack or damage.

Spells
- The following spells are stricken from the game: the Polymorph school, Time Stop, Wind Wall, Contingency, Knock.
- Divine Power is no longer a standard Cleric spell. It is still on the War domain list.

Miscellaneous
- Creatures called or summoned cannot call or summon other creatures in turn.
- Called or Summoned creatures start out with an attitude of Neutral towards the caster. They will not willingly cast a spell that has an XP component. The original caster who summons the creature must pay half the XP cost for any such spell. If the original caster wants the creature to cast a spell with an expensive material component, he must - with no assistance given by any other character - make the creature Helpful by succeeding on a Diplomacy check. Circumstance bonuses will apply - it will be easier to convince an Archon to cast a spell against a Pit Fiend, etc - as will "rushed diplomacy" penalties if attempted during combat. If the check fails, the caster must provide the material component.


Moving outside of Core, there is no such thing as Divine Metamagic.

[Eldariel]

Polymorph-line has a number of problems:

Problem: They're generally of too low level (especially true for Alter Self and Polymorph, both of which aren't inherently broken, unlike PAO and Shapechange - just too good for their level).
Solution: Raise the level.

Problem: They are powerful while also being incredibly versatile, giving a Wizard preparing them the ability to choose whether he wants flight, combat toughness, AC or whatever on the time of casting.
Solution: Either raise the level so their versatility is vindicated, or split the spells by forms. The latter is horribly messy so again, I suggest raising the spell level.

Problem: They give you static physical stats in spite of your own physicals, making heavy investment in physicals pretty useless in games allowing Polymorph-line.
Solution: Have the line give bonuses to physicals equivalent to the bonus of the creature you turn into instead of setting your stats to a certain number.

Problem: You can stack other buffs on top of the Polymorph-effect, making you much more impressive physically than any creature you could turn into ever were.
Solution: Make the bonus granted by Polymorph Enhancement Bonus thus not stacking with the rest.

Problem: They are too longlasting (Alter Self & Shapechange at 10 min/level, PAO at Permanent).
Solution: Make them have a shorter duration.



Basically, Alter Self and Polymorph are fine spells, but way way too low in levels. Also, they have characteristics that make them abuse. Alter Self at level 4 and Polymorph at level 7-8 wouldn't really be that broken, and if you make the bonuses granted by the spells into enhancement bonus, they begin to feel relatively fair (though they're still the key to maxing out your stats, physical defenses and such).


Polymorph Any Object needs a clause that "No more than one PAO can ever be in effect on the same character." It also needs to be at least a level 10 spell. Mortal magic has no business changing anything into anything, gaining insane Int or any such. The spell is really broken into a thousand pieces; it should just not exist. Some sort of "Alter the Unliving"-spell could exist to replicate its uses with non-creature objects as a ~7th level spell, but you just shouldn't be allowed to copy the Int of any creature, nor should you be allowed to make permanent changes to yourself. Basically anything that changes your Type = BAAAAAD.

Shapechange could be ok as written as long as you give it a clause "If you use a supernatural ability that replicates a spell with an expensive material component or XP cost, you must pay those costs as if casting the same spell", an expensive material component (say, make the Focus into a Material Component like in AD&D) and turn it into a 1 round/level spell. That's the minimum amount of alteration required, because the spell is fcking insane. It worked fine in AD&D as listed though (it had 1500gp component and 1 round/level duration) so that could be fine; you can win an encounter with it, but you can't be a Choker all day (Polymorphed into whatever else for physicals, of course) instead being forced to actually deal with your natural form every now and then. And of course, make the bonuses to physicals enhancement bonuses as above. And define what "Familiar with X" means.


Ok, other broken spells:
Gate - Remove the whole short-term service-use. 1 round/level is plenty to get your Wishes or whatever. Require a payment for everything done through the spell (after the combat if that's a relevant matter) and don't make the called creatures your bitches.

Planar Binding-line - Remove the whole option to make the Magic Circle infinitely durable. They should be able to pit their SR against it and they should be able to Teleport out. Also, remove the "Opposed Charisma-check" mechanic and instead just say "You must barter with the called creature for its services."

Without a fixed mechanic, the bartering-part is much more open and you can't just use Moment of Prescience to win the opposed check for no cost whatsoever. Oh, and require any kind of magical compelling from the spell - you should do bartering proper here.

Time Stop: You really should cut down on the turns. 1d3 or 2 are highest I'd agree with. And the ability to interact with the outside world while under Time Stop should be heavily limited. You shouldn't be able to chain multiple Time Stops into each other, and there should be a window to interact with the permanent effects put into place during Time Stop after Time Stop.

Also, a person under Time Stop shouldn't be immune to readied actions and contingency (hell, the immunity doesn't make any sense with the 3.5 version of the spell which is just a Super Haste).

Divine Power: Either make this spell grant fixed bonuses instead of altering your BAB, or remove it entirely. Nothing should be changing your BAB as that severly devalues an important class features of e.g. Fighter-classes.



That's it for the worst offenders. Next on the list:
- Enervation, Necromancy-rays in general (you could give them a save or something...)
- Blasphemy-line (again, a save would be nice)
- Control Winds (a bit harder to make nation-destroying winds PLZKTHX!)
- Disjunction (a bit less paperwork and a bit less autoremove-all-spells-on-you)
- Astral Projection (a bit less immortality)
- Miracle (a bit less of "I can do anything for no cost" please; at least make it have an XP cost or something)
- Wish (yeah, the whole lack of price limit on Magic Items it can produce is a bit of a problem)


At that point, you've gotten rid of the worst offenders (although defensive beasts such as Fly, Mirror Image, Prismatic Sphere, etc. still exist and insane control like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Grease, etc. but meh).


Next step would be giving melee types some nice new toys. Upgrading Improved X-feats (outside Improved Trip) to Trip's level and making them worthwhile strategies (hard with Sunder tho) could help, as could rolling multiples of the feats into one. Oh, and roll TWF-line into one feat. And combine Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. All in all, basic combat styles shouldn't cost that many feats.

Oh, and to hell with Freedom of Movement negating Grapple; make it grant some +10 bonus or something, immunity just plain sucks. Oh, and while at it, make defensive casting and tumbling a bit more difficult and get rid of 5' steps.


And give non-Power Attacking martial types some feats that boost their damage. Some Two-Weapon Rend or such. And Power Shot for archers and Power Throw for throwers (along with Brutal Throw to use Str for throwing).

Oh, and rewrite the fcking Monk and Fighter. There're literally hundreds of rewrites even in just our Homebrew-forum, so that shouldn't be hard. And yeah. At this point, things should be pretty good. Note that this does not touch skills (I personally just give everyone 6-8 more points per level) and doesn't balance most of the Core feats (let's face it, most of them suck) but that would be outside the scope of this post. Poisons and such need a bit of an overhaul too, but that's not too hard to do.


I can't help but imagine just getting Tome of Battle and Expanded Psionics Handbook would be easier tho :smalltongue: (then again, if wanting to use core material, you'd still want to houserule a ton of stuff)

[elliott20]

hey, I'm not saying that you SHOULD just use the splatbooks, I'm just saying that's what people usually say in response to this kind of thread.

but honestly, eldarial's post is a good set of rules to follow. If you get these to work, you generally will take care of MOST of the problems.

that and you said that your players generally don't optimize too much anyway, so once you take these suggestions, everything should even out.

[AstralFire]

Moving outside of Core, there is no such thing as Divine Metamagic.

Mostly hypothetical as I've never had anyone even ask to use DMM.

But if they did. I would allow it. But not nightsticks.

And should they use it for more than one or two spells, pretty soon everyone who can Detect Magic is going to be casting dispels on the cleric. And for speed - because I buff most classes so they don't need temporary buffs in the first place - dispel magic autodispels all effects at Caster Level+1 with a natural duration of a day or less, rolling the caster level check only for longer things.

And I don't allow temporary caster level boosting items or effects.

:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Do yourself a favor and click the d20 Rebirth link in my signature. The fighting-classes there are perfectly compatible with everything within D&D and, y'know, actually do what they're supposed to.

[Myrmex]

@Eldariel
Nice, comprehensive list.

What would you say to having Time Stop last 1d4 rounds, where it just gave you an extra standard action each round? Give it a different name, of course. Still really good, but not nearly as ridiculous.


Cloistered Cleric can be made to work if combat self-buffs like Divine Power are removed.

No; just remove things like Divine Metamagic and metamagic rods. It takes valuable rounds during combat to become a CoDzilla, and spell slots, without a way to persist or quicken buffs for cheap.
With a smaller HD and worse armor prof, the cloistered cleric will be less battle ready than a Warblade or Crusader.


Mostly hypothetical as I've never had anyone even ask to use DMM.

But if they did. I would allow it. But not nightsticks.

That actually wouldn't be that bad. I think it would put clerics around tier 2 or 3 (a little above ToB). You'd still have to limit some cheese, though. Make sure they can't take any other sorts of metamagic reducers, so they either need to burn all their feats on more turning attempts, or heavily invest in charisma.

[Doc Roc]

:: leans head in hands :: Nope. DMM: Persist is always broken. I can get 35+ turn attempts without nightsticks.

Let's ignore things like Initiate of Mystra for now.

Quick, there is no WiP thread on the homebrew forums. I don't do most of my serious work here, honestly.

[Myrmex]

I can get 35+ turn attempts without nightsticks.

That's 5 persisted spells, and I suspect some silly shens involved (or all your feats spent on Extra Turning).

[Doc Roc]

Nope. Neither. 2 persisted spells:

Divine Power
Alter Self


Isn't that enough to make your average GM rip his hair out? There are so many-many good forms even at that level!
What if we toss in reserves of strength?

The game goes SNAP.

[Kaiyanwang]

But if they did. I would allow it. But not nightsticks.


I did this way. Never had problems.

@Eldariel: agree on polymorph. IIRC, anyway, they shortened he duration of shapechange in rules compendium to 1min /level.

[Myrmex]

Divine Power

It is good, but it's a dispelable effect that let's you pretend you're a Warsword or whatever.


Alter Self

A broke spell, agreed. Polymorph effects should be higher level, grant enhancement bonuses to stats, and not give you stuff like pounce, flight, extra attacks, etc.


Isn't that enough to make your average GM rip his hair out? There are so many-many good forms even at that level!

Without a doubt. Of course, it may not always be feasible to stay as a Trog all day.


What if we toss in reserves of strength?

How about we just toss it out?

[Doc Roc]

An excellent rejoinder. I was just suggesting that there is a real and palpable problem with even generic DMM. I offer, as an interesting counter to your existing arguments of dispellability, the dreaded Caster Level Problem. You have to sit down and really work up some hardcore stuff to rip off the buffs of a well-built persist engine.

As for reserves of strength, if we will be tossing all sorts of things out, perhaps you should admit there are problems with all sorts of things that run miles deep? That overhauling just classes is not enough?

[HansSprungfeld]

I would say 99% of the problems could be fixed by:

1.) Removing broken spells, as discussed in depth above.
2.) Removing a few problematic feats/PRCs/etc. (Natural Spell, Incantatrix, things of that nature).
3.) Nerfing or removing one of the Druid's abilities. In my games/campaign world, shapechanging magic is limited to monstrous races who have this as their thing, so Wild Shape goes.
4.) Replace Melee classes with ToB, Sublime Way Ranger homebrew.

Makes a system that is as balanced as it's going to be without going into the homogeneity of a 4th edition type system. That is, it allows everyone to contribute meaningfully and be tops in their area, which is what the goal of balance in an RPG should be, rather than uniformity/perfect equality.

I don't mind if casters are still more "powerful," as long as they aren't better (or even close to as good) at melee than melee fighters.

Edit: Alternatively, E6 (banning only Alter Self and any incidental nonsense) is also very nicely balanced and is actually my favorite form of D&D right now.

[Fixer]

I still prefer my Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107513) from 5 months ago. It helped a Fighter keep up to at least Tier 2 without making them have too many things to keep track of. It also has the benefit of no dead levels.

Fighters were designed for beginning players to beat things with pointy sticks and not have too many options they didn't select for themselves. That was the central theme I was going for in its creation.

Of course, I am working on my own gaming system from scratch, and have been for the last 5 months, so I am not planning on updating anything else.

[Faleldir]

Adapt the First Rule Of Psionics to vancian casters: no spells above your highest known level.

[AstralFire]

An excellent rejoinder. I was just suggesting that there is a real and palpable problem with even generic DMM. I offer, as an interesting counter to your existing arguments of dispellability, the dreaded Caster Level Problem. You have to sit down and really work up some hardcore stuff to rip off the buffs of a well-built persist engine.

As for reserves of strength, if we will be tossing all sorts of things out, perhaps you should admit there are problems with all sorts of things that run miles deep? That overhauling just classes is not enough?

How would you get around the uberbuffed Dispel Magic I keep, then? Curious.

And I do agree that overhauling just classes isn't enough, but everyone's quoting my post. o.o

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How would you get around the uberbuffed Dispel Magic I keep, then? Curious.

And I do agree that overhauling just classes isn't enough, but everyone's quoting my post. o.oThere are considerable temporary boosts to CL that are unusable in combat. Hit yourself with, say, Divine Spell Power, Bead of Karma, Consumptive Field, and the feat to increase CL with an increase in casting time, and you're looking at +21 to your CL at level 9. CL 30 for your buffs is very hard for, say, GDM to affect(1d20+20 at best, vs DC 41).

[AstralFire]

There are considerable temporary boosts to CL that are unusable in combat. Hit yourself with, say, Divine Spell Power, Bead of Karma, Consumptive Field, and the feat to increase CL with an increase in casting time, and you're looking at +21 to your CL at level 9. CL 30 for your buffs is very hard for, say, GDM to affect(1d20+20 at best, vs DC 41).

Yes, but I mean with regard to my fix specifically, which includes:


And I don't allow temporary caster level boosting items or effects.

:smalltongue:

And also makes Dispel Magic automatically clear up to 5 effects of CL+1.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, but I mean with regard to my fix specifically, which includes:



And also makes Dispel Magic automatically clear up to 5 effects of CL+1.Deos that also ban Divine Spell Power and other CL boosters that affect only one spell?

[AstralFire]

Deos that also ban Divine Spell Power and other CL boosters that affect only one spell?

Anything less permanent than 'Practiced Spellcaster' goes bye-bye, with the exception of Wild Surge, and we know just how much people trust using Wild Surge to buff.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Anything less permanent than 'Practiced Spellcaster' goes bye-bye, with the exception of Wild Surge, and we know just how much people trust using Wild Surge to buff.Practiced Spellcaster+Wild Surge, then, applied like all bonuses in the most beneficial order. Not great, not the normal level of uber-CL, but good enough that now every character will have to have it. You also go with the various anti-dispel defenses instead of CL boosting in that case.

Also keep in mind that this rule hurts things like GMW as much as self-buffing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Anything less permanent than 'Practiced Spellcaster' goes bye-bye, with the exception of Wild Surge, and we know just how much people trust using Wild Surge to buff.

PS + WS = ???

[AstralFire]

Practiced Spellcaster+Wild Surge, then, applied like all bonuses in the most beneficial order. Not great, not the normal level of uber-CL, but good enough that now every character will have to have it. You also go with the various anti-dispel defenses instead of CL boosting in that case.

Also keep in mind that this rule hurts things like GMW as much as self-buffing.

I never allowed Greater Magic Weapon to work on a weapon with a matching enhancement bonus, anyway. I keep (somewhere... I lost it in my computer shuffle) a 60 page document with all of my changes to 3E, with numerous core caster nerfs, melee buffs, and ways to remove magic item dependency.

[Myrmex]

I was just suggesting that there is a real and palpable problem with even generic DMM. I offer, as an interesting counter to your existing arguments of dispellability, the dreaded Caster Level Problem. You have to sit down and really work up some hardcore stuff to rip off the buffs of a well-built persist engine.

Yeah, I know. The only real way around that is Psionic Dispelling, due to the way augmenting works and some funny wording. Or, you know, if you allow DMM: persist (I prefer allowing DMM: Quicken), cut some of the temporary CL boosting effects. Consumptive Field, for instance.

Actually, I think I agree with you. DM persist is just TOO good, without a lot of nerfage. There's no reason to not optimize your cleric to DMM persist, and then we get a bunch of godless clerics of undeath & planning.


As for reserves of strength, if we will be tossing all sorts of things out, perhaps you should admit there are problems with all sorts of things that run miles deep? That overhauling just classes is not enough?

I've never claimed otherwise. With all splats on the table, there are simply too many good permutations without removing things. I think the d20 system is a pretty solid mechanic, it's just that the writers were pretty clueless about what they were doing with it until recently. To be honest, though, I like the huge variety of choices and power levels in D&D 3.5, though I think Rule Zero (and a strong sense of decency) is absolutely necessary for the system to be fun. I'd be playing 4.0 if I wanted a well balanced system. Pure mechanical balance isn't really what I'm after- it's some semblance of parity between archetypes.

[Doc Roc]

Astral, now you've made counterspelling quite easy. So how will I deal with your GDM? Counter it with a GDM.

[AstralFire]

Astral, now you've made counterspelling quite easy. So how will I deal with your GDM? Counter it with a GDM.

Ah. Noted.

And tucked away for later purposes. Though I suspect any re-entries I make to Fantasy RPG will be a "Dungeons and Dragons: Saga Edition" anyway...

I know what you're asking yourself; you're asking yourself 'how much can Astral love Saga Edition'? I love Saga Edition like I love Pokemon, Michelle Branch, and good old Korean Spam-Fried Rice.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, saga edition's pretty great. Might I counter with a recommendation for Savage Worlds? At this point, you know me to be a pretty good system cracker. I like savage worlds. It's mostly balanced, and incredibly fast-moving in play.

[AstralFire]

Actually, saga edition's pretty great. Might I counter with a recommendation for Savage Worlds? At this point, you know me to be a pretty good system cracker. I like savage worlds. It's mostly balanced, and incredibly fast-moving in play.

I'll file that under my things to read list. For now, I'm still recovering from years of fantasy overdosage between the Dungeons and Dragons, the Legend of Zelda, and World of Warcraft. I was actually seriously interested in 4E mechanically, then I found myself building a character and going "...when all is said and done, I'm making another campaign wherein people hit stuff with swords and go "'FORSOOTH THERE VERILY BE DRAGONS.'" No matter how good a system is, I don't think I'm in a shape to want to do classic medieval fantasy right now.

[The Neoclassic]

So many suggestions! Well, I've decided upon a few things, and I still have a lot of spells to look at, but this is what I'm going with thus far. Let me know if any are overpowered or really do nothing at all; if some are still underpowered, I can live with that (especially since I'll be working on trimming down overpowered spell stuff next).

All Classes: +2 skills points per level. This means clerics get 4 + Int modifier, and rogues get 10 + Int modifier.

Skills: All classes get Craft, Profession, Search, Spot, and Listen as class skills. These are useful skills which I want to encourage players to have.

Clerics: No heavy armor proficiency.

Fighters: Hit dice are now d12 instead of d10.

Monks: Hit dice are now d10 instead of d8.

Arcane Spells: Remove time stop from spell list. Magic in my world simply cannot affect the flow of time; that's a feat that only deities can accomplish.

Yup, not much, but it's a place to start.

Eldariel, I see you have some excellent suggestions. I apologize, but I haven't gotten to read up on all the spells yet (yes, I'm a bit of a flake), but that will be the next thing up on my list of balancing stuff to tackle. I appreciate the very useful list of ideas!

[ZeroNumerous]

Arcane Spells: Remove time stop from spell list. Magic in my world simply cannot affect the flow of time; that's a feat that only deities can accomplish.

Kick the psionic version(s) too. Time Regression/Hop

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fighters: Hit dice are now d12 instead of d10.Doesn't give them anything they needed. HP damage is not what kills a meleer, flight/saves/battlefield control/ray spells/invisibility are what kill meleers.
Monks: Hit dice are now d10 instead of d8.At least give them full BAB, and make their powers /encounter instead of /day or /week.
Arcane Spells: Remove time stop from spell list. Magic in my world simply cannot affect the flow of time; that's a feat that only deities can accomplish.Are you still allowing Foresight, Choker/Dire Tortoise shape, Contingency, Celerity, or the divine Timestop?

[Kobold-Bard]

Doesn't give them anything they needed. HP damage is not what kills a meleer, flight/saves/battlefield control/ray spells/invisibility are what kill meleers.At least give them full BAB, and make their powers /encounter instead of /day or /week. Are you still allowing Foresight, Choker/Dire Tortoise shape, Contingency, Celerity, or the divine Timestop?

I gave them a Class Feature that let them replicate Dispel Magic whet the made a Weapon attack X/day, upgrading to Greater when appropriate. Never played it, but it seems like a good way of overcoming that particular obstacle.

Just a thought.

[The Neoclassic]

Doesn't give them anything they needed. HP damage is not what kills a meleer, flight/saves/battlefield control/ray spells/invisibility are what kill meleers.

Hmm, I'll work on addressing those then. Would some sort of extra magical resistance of some sort possibly work for fighters? Then again, that might change fluff. Hmm...


At least give them full BAB, and make their powers /encounter instead of /day or /week.

Would a full BAB not overpower a monk? Probably not, I guess. If so, I certainly could up to full BAB...


Are you still allowing Foresight, Choker/Dire Tortoise shape, Contingency, Celerity, or the divine Timestop?

I said I'm still working on the spells! :smalltongue: I'll look through those, and anything that's too broken to fix, I'd rather just toss out.

[AstralFire]

You'll have to throw out a lot. I personally think it's easier to just go heavy on the alt-magic systems because it's a lot of work to throw out everything bad and replace it with stuff that's still fun.

Gotta run, will post more thoughts in a bit! :smallsmile:

[Kobold-Bard]

Would a full BAB not overpower a monk? Probably not, I guess. If so, I certainly could up to full BAB...

Either that or give them Soulknife style enhancements to their unarmed attacks.

[AstralFire]

Hmm, I'll work on addressing those then. Would some sort of extra magical resistance of some sort possibly work for fighters? Then again, that might change fluff. Hmm...

Magical resistance would help some, but really, spellcasters have a number of ways to attack; summon spells can just bog a fighter down with things he has to fight and they mostly ignore SR with their abilities. If SR were enough - like WotC thought it would be - then Monks would be a little higher up on the totem pole. Essentially, you need to know how you're going to deal with spells before you can deal with improving the Fighter.

I know you don't use non-core, but I would certainly look at Tome of Battle for any homebrew suggestions - essentially, what makes it work is not the fact that is has maneuvers in a 9 level tier (though that works out nicely for keeping up with geometric growth rate from spells), what makes it work is that it both gives you a variety of tools to handle situations - ways to reach flyers, ways to grapple effectively, ways to move more quickly - and restrictions on them so that they can't be used every round, preventing any one method from becoming too effective and discouraging five rounds of the same tactic.

Giving the classes abilities that can counter the same issues - active ones, not just passive ones - will be where you can get a lot of benefit. So, for example, strip off the base requirements on Whirlwind Attack, make it easier to use (standard action) and bam. Whirlwind even restricts itself because it's situationally useful. Fighters get a lot of feats, but they're not so good when you need to spend 3 or 4 feats to get one new trick; if you have to spend more than one feat to make a method of combat viable in situations where it would conceivably be useful, then it should be reworked.

[Set]

Wizards can only write spells into their spellbook to which they have reasonable access.
Bards can be lawful. OK, that's just a flavor thing, not a balance thing. :smalltongue:


As long as you are going in that direction, consider removing alignment junk for Monks and Babarians as well. Tribal cultures were often obsessed with honor, taboos and restrictive traditions, making a 'Barbarian' quite likely to be a very lawful individual (just one able to focus himself in combat). Similarly, a chaotic 'drunken master' kind of Monk, a little bit whimsical, a little bit of a prankster, could also fit just fine. It's not like the alignment requirements have anything to do with game balance anyway. It's just flavor.


I was thinking of maybe changing the Fighter into a more well-rounded individual: A few more skills, 4 + Int mod for skills, and good Ref as well as Fort save. It wouldn't fix everything, certainly, but it might be better.

Bumping all of the 2+Int mod skill points classes to 4+Int mod would make sense, as well as opening up a few more skills here and there. (Fighters should have access to Tumble, IMO.)


My own Fighter tweaks;

1) Fighters from desert cultures (seafaring cultures, whatever) often choose to 'lose' armor proficiency feats for increased mobility.

A Fighter can choose (usually at 1st level, but this could occur mid-campaign in a 'training montage' sort of scene) to give up Heavy Armor (and Tower Shield) proficiency to gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC whenever they are not heavily encumbered.

A Fighter who has made this choice can also choose to give up Medium Armor (and Heavy Shield) proficiency to gain another +1 Dodge bonus to AC when they are no more than lightly encumbered.

A Fighter who has made this choice could also choose to give up Light Armor (and Light Shield) proficiency to gain another +1 Dodge bonus to AC when they are completely unencumbered. All such bonuses stack, and a desert dervish or swashbuckler who gives up all Armor proficiencies (and can use no shield larger than a buckler) gains up to a +3 Dodge bonus to AC when unencumbered. It in no way makes up for not being able to wear plate armor, but, in a campaign where armor might not be the best idea anyway, it's at least a small advantage.

Optional: Paladins and Rangers, etc. can also make these choices, but must make them at 1st level.

2) Fighters gain a +1 damage bonus with melee, natural or ranged weapons at 1st level, and increasing every odd level thereafter. A 5th level Fighter who get +3 to damage with every strike, while a 19th or 20th level Fighter would get +10 damage with every hit. This extra damage only applies to attacks / weapons with which the Fighter is proficient.

3) Fighters are trained to make more efficient use of worn armor than other classes capable of wearing those same armors. At 3rd level, a Fighter wearing Light Armor gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class above that provided by the armor itself. At 5th level, a Fighter gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class when wearing Medium Armor. At 7th level, a Fighter gains a +3 bonus to Armor Class when wearing Heavy Armor. Armor made of special materials to count as a weight class lighter (like mithril) or heavier (no examples currently) counts as the lighter or heavier armor type for this class ability, meaning that a mithril shirt still counts as Light Armor, as does a mithril breastplate (so even a 5th level Fighter only gets a +1 for the mithril breastplate, and even a 7th level Fighter only gets a +2 for a suit of mithril fullplate).

4) Fighters automatically gain the equivalent of Combat Expertise and Power Attack without having to purchase them as feats. Furthermore, Fighters can trade-off up to their full BAB from Fighter levels (for AC or for extra damage), or +5, whichever is better, with these feats. Additionally, Fighters benefitting from the Bonus Damage rule (#2), can trade-off bonus damage from this Class Ability for pluses to hit by making a Precise Attack.

Fighters using the Powerful Strike (Power Attack) or Precise Attack options modify only that specific attack, and these modifications do not affect other attacks in the remaining round (unlike a normal use of the Power Attack feat), so that a 7th level Fighter (+7 BAB, +4 damage bonus) could choose to make a Powerful Strike with his first attack (taking up to seven off of his attack roll and adding it to his damage roll) and then a Precise Strike with his iterative attack (subtracting up to 4 from his Damage Bonus and adding it to his Attack Roll).

Other classes can take the Combat Expertise or Power Attack feats normally, but do not gain access to these advanced abilities. Fighters gain these abilities regardless of their Intelligence or Strength scores, and do not need to qualify for the 'prerequisites' of the Feat versions.

5) Not Fighter specific, but Medium Armor only reduces movement by 1/2 it's normal penalty (-5 ft. / round for a Spd 20 or 30 race).

6) Also not Fighter specific, everyone gets the equivalent of Weapon Finesse for free. If a weapon is light and one handed, a proficient user can use their Dexterity modifer instead of their Strength modifier for Attack Rolls.

[The Neoclassic]

As long as you are going in that direction, consider removing alignment junk for Monks and Babarians as well. Tribal cultures were often obsessed with honor, taboos and restrictive traditions, making a 'Barbarian' quite likely to be a very lawful individual (just one able to focus himself in combat). Similarly, a chaotic 'drunken master' kind of Monk, a little bit whimsical, a little bit of a prankster, could also fit just fine. It's not like the alignment requirements have anything to do with game balance anyway. It's just flavor.

Fair point! I may actually do this. Brings the paladin up into question though... But overhauling that for different alignments would suck. :smallsigh:

Now, to that the fighter fixes... I love them. No, seriously, this is near exactly what I'm looking for. No huge amount of work on my part to redo major stuff in the combat system, but it makes things *slightly* better for an underpowered class. Enough so that the power differential should be less ridiculous. Also, no major flavor changes. What I specifically like is...


A Fighter can choose (usually at 1st level, but this could occur mid-campaign in a 'training montage' sort of scene) to give up Heavy Armor (and Tower Shield) proficiency to gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC whenever they are not heavily encumbered.

A Fighter who has made this choice can also choose to give up Medium Armor (and Heavy Shield) proficiency to gain another +1 Dodge bonus to AC when they are no more than lightly encumbered.

A Fighter who has made this choice could also choose to give up Light Armor (and Light Shield) proficiency to gain another +1 Dodge bonus to AC when they are completely unencumbered. All such bonuses stack, and a desert dervish or swashbuckler who gives up all Armor proficiencies (and can use no shield larger than a buckler) gains up to a +3 Dodge bonus to AC when unencumbered. It in no way makes up for not being able to wear plate armor, but, in a campaign where armor might not be the best idea anyway, it's at least a small advantage.


Fighters gain a +1 damage bonus with melee, natural or ranged weapons at 1st level, and increasing every odd level thereafter. A 5th level Fighter who get +3 to damage with every strike, while a 19th or 20th level Fighter would get +10 damage with every hit. This extra damage only applies to attacks / weapons with which the Fighter is proficient.


Fighters automatically gain the equivalent of Combat Expertise and Power Attack without having to purchase them as feats. Furthermore, Fighters can trade-off up to their full BAB from Fighter levels (for AC or for extra damage), or +5, whichever is better, with these feats. Additionally, Fighters benefitting from the Bonus Damage rule (#2), can trade-off bonus damage from this Class Ability for pluses to hit by making a Precise Attack.

Fighters using the Powerful Strike (Power Attack) or Precise Attack options modify only that specific attack, and these modifications do not affect other attacks in the remaining round (unlike a normal use of the Power Attack feat), so that a 7th level Fighter (+7 BAB, +4 damage bonus) could choose to make a Powerful Strike with his first attack (taking up to seven off of his attack roll and adding it to his damage roll) and then a Precise Strike with his iterative attack (subtracting up to 4 from his Damage Bonus and adding it to his Attack Roll).

Other classes can take the Combat Expertise or Power Attack feats normally, but do not gain access to these advanced abilities. Fighters gain these abilities regardless of their Intelligence or Strength scores, and do not need to qualify for the 'prerequisites' of the Feat versions.


Also not Fighter specific, everyone gets the equivalent of Weapon Finesse for free. If a weapon is light and one handed, a proficient user can use their Dexterity modifer instead of their Strength modifier for Attack Rolls.

Can anyone else comment on the balance of these? I'm guessing this isn't the end of the road for me patching up my balance issues (see: SPELLS), but I think this could be a major step for the upping the underpowered classes.

Also, Set, should I ever put up my campaign setting online would you be OK with me implementing a lot of your suggestions if I give you due credit? :smallredface:

[Fax Celestis]

Fair point! I may actually do this. Brings the paladin up into question though... But overhauling that for different alignments would suck. :smallsigh:

Good thing, then, that I already did it for you.

[darkzucchini]

There is a lot of good advise here in this thread. Personally, I don't believe that 3.5 can be perfectly balanced without a major overhaul. But that's okay. Many of us had plenty of fun playing the fighter even if the wizard Finger of Death'd the big bad guy away every once in awhile.

While implementing some or all of these changes will make your job easier, remember that the key to having an enjoyable campaign is getting the right players and being a good DM.

1) Make sure everyone agrees with the house rules before you recruit them. If someone seems unsure about them, they will probably complain about how unjust they are later. So do yourself a favor and recruit only those who seem happy with a bit of restriction.

2) If you're recruiting in this forum, do a bit of spying. Check on other campaigns that people have been in, maybe even send a message to their DM and ask if they have had any problems with the player. That's not to say that you shouldn't give new guys a chance, you just have to be a good reader of people.

3) Remember that you are in charge. Don't let your players buy anything they want. Control the treasure that you give out. A lot of power gaming problems can be stopped by restricting what your players have access to in game rather than just what they have access to in terms of crunch.

4) It's your job to make sure that everyone is having fun. If the sorcerer knows Knock, throw in more traps for the rogue to pick. If the wizard is Fly'ing around with Wind Wall up all the time, toss in an enemy wizard with Dispell Magic. You just need to be creative enough and know the rules well enough to be able to keep your players entertained and challenged. If you can do that, then class balance is irrelevant.

[Gnomo]

I haven't read the whole thread, cause I'm pretty much done with my houserules, and because my focus while doing it was pretty much the opposite of the OP, i wanted to change as little as possible, and just add more functionality and features to the classes that weren't good enough to compete.

These are the changes to the classes in my games, maybe they won't be of much help to you considering that you seem to want a complete rewrite, nevertheless you might find useful a few more ideas:

Fighter
Improves its Hit Die to d12.
Gain 4 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
At third level and every 2 levels thereafter the fighter gains a bonus feat, this can be any General or Tactical feat and must meet the prerequisites to take it.
Any feat taken during a fighter level can be retrained with 1 hour of intense training (strenuous activity), the character must meet the prerequisites for the new feat. If the feat to be retrained is being used as a prerequisite, then it cannot be retrained.

Sorcerer
Increase the Hit Die to d6.
Gain 4 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
The Sorcerer loses one spell slot per level.
Gain the feat "Extra Spell" (Complete Arcane) at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, but all spells chosen must belong to the same magic school.
Gain a Metamagic bonus feat or a Heritage bonus feat at 7th level, then again at 13th level, at 19th level and again at 20th level.

Cleric
Gain 3 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Loses heavy armor proficiency.
Lose the spell slots dedicated to domain spells.
Spontaneous Domain Spells: At second level the cleric can spontaneously cast the 1st level spells from his two chosen domains. Every two levels after the second, the cleric gain the ability to spontaneously cast the spells of the next superior level from his two chosen domains.
At 20th level the Cleric gain access to a third domain of his deity (and its granted power), and can cast all spells from this domain spontaneously as well.

Monk
Improve its Hit Die to d10
Gain 5 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Have good base attack bonus instead of medium.
Flurry of blows is just 1 extra attack as a swift action that must be done before all other attacks, the monk takes a -2 penalty to all attacks made until his next turn. At 11th monk level using Flurry of Blows adds no penalty to attacks.
Add Blind-fight, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike or monk weapon), Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike or monk weapon) and Two Weapon Fighting to the bonus feat list that the monk can choose at 1st, 2nd and 6th level, the character does not necessarily has to meet the prerequisites of the feats to get them.
Every 2 levels after 12th gain a new daily use of the class feature "Abundant Step".
Bonus feats: At 10th, 14th and 18th levels the monk is granted another bonus feat, this can be any of the previous granted bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd or 6th level) or a fighter bonus feat that has as prerequisite Two Weapon Fighting, the monk does not need to meet the prerequisites of this feat in order to take it.
Perfect Self: This class feature also grants Damage Reduction 3/chaotic and the Spell Resistance from the Adamantine Soul class feature changes to 10 + the monk's hit die.

Ranger
Gain 7 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
His effective druid level to calculate the abilities gained by his animal companion is equal to his Ranger level.
His caster level is equal to his Ranger level - 3 instead of being equal to half his Ranger level.
At 12th level gains blindsense 5 ft. At 16th level gains blindsense 10 ft. At 20th level gains blindsense 20 ft.

Barbarian
While in rage the barbarian gain 2 temporal hit points per class level.
Starting at 3rd level the Barbarian adds his Trap Sense bonus to his Touch AC while in rage.
At 9th level the class feature "Fast movement" increases its bonus to movement to 20 ft while raging.
Gain the "Mettle" class feature while raging at 15th level.
At 18th level the class feature "Fast movement" increases its bonus to movement to 30 ft while raging.
Inmortal Fury (ex): At 20th level the Barbarian gain a +4 morale bonus to Fortitude Saving Throws to negate a death effect while in rage. If the effect doesn't allow a Fortitude Saving Throw the Barbarian is entitled to do one to negate the effect anyway (if the effect has no means to calculate a Save DC, then the Barbarian must succeed a Fortitude Saving Throw with a DC of 30), this can only be done while in rage. A death effect is any effect that kills a character regardless of its hit points.

Wizard
Gain 3 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Gain the feat "Extra Slot" (Complete Arcane) at 7th level, then again at 13th level and at 19th level.
Greater Magic Knowledge: At 20th level the wizard can use spells from one of his banned magic schools, for all effects the selected magic school is not banned anymore. If the Wizard doesn't have any magic school banned then he gains the ability to prepare all his spells in 10 minutes instead of 1 hour and prepare a single spell in 1 minute.

Paladin
Gain 4 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Holy Aura (su): At 7th level the Paladin can, as a standard action, spend one daily use of Turn Undead to grant a morale bonus to AC, one of the three saving throws, skill checks or grant fast healing (the Paladin chooses one benefit when using the power) equal to the bonus on the cleric level check of a turning attempt (the paladin can add bonuses granted by feats to this check but not by other means), minimum 0, to all allies within 10 ft of the Paladin (but not himself), this bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Paladin's Wisdom modifier + 3. Can have only one aura active at a time.
At 13th level his Holy Aura class feature can affect allies within 30 ft away from the Paladin and the minimum bonus granted or fast healing amount is 1, this also extends his Aura of Courage to 30 feet.
At 19th level his Holy Aura class feature can affect allies within 60 ft away from the Paladin and the minimum bonus granted or fast healing amount is 2, this also extends his Aura of Courage to 60 feet.
Divine Restoration (sp): At 20th level the Paladin can use his class feature of Remove Disease daily instead of weekly, besides he can choose to replicate the effects of the spells: Remove Curse, Restoration or Remove Poison instead of Remove Disease.

Rogue
Gain 9 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Gain the Dash feat (Complete Warrior) at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
At 14th level the Rogue can sneak attack enemies otherwise immune to critical hits for half his normal sneak attack damage.
At 20th level the Rogue gains a new Special Ability.
At 20th level the Rogue adds 1d10 to the damage of the first attack in which he deals any amount of sneak attack damage this turn.

Psychic Warrior
Gain 4 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Gain the "Psionic Talent" feat at 1st level, and every six levels thereafter.
At 20th level the Psychic Warrior gains 1 extra point of Base Attack Bonus while he has his Psionic Focus.

Psion
Gain 3 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
At 7th level the Psion can recover his Psionic Focus once per day by manifesting a power from his discipline, at 13th level he can do so twice a day, at 19th level he can do so three times per day.

Wilder
Gain 3 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Gain the “Expanded Knowledge” feat at 6th level, and again every 2 levels thereafter. All the powers chosen must belong to the same discipline.
At 20th level the Wilder becomes immune to Psychic Enervation.

Soulknife
When attacking with its Mind Blade, the Soulknife has full base attack bonus instead of medium
Gain a +1 competence bonus to AC at 5th level while his Mind Blade is materialized, this bonus increases by 1 every 5 levels thereafter.

[The Neoclassic]

I haven't read the whole thread, cause I'm pretty much done with my houserules, and because my focus while doing it was pretty much the opposite of the OP, i wanted to change as little as possible, and just add more functionality and features to the classes that weren't good enough to compete.

These are the changes to the classes in my games, maybe they won't be of much help to you considering that you seem to want a complete rewrite, nevertheless you might find useful a few more ideas:

Wait, what?


I don't want to entirely change how magic works or redo class abilities. I only want minor changes to the crunch, not entirely reinvented classes. I also tend to run games with a lot of roleplay and not too much hack-n-slash, so I don't need all classes to be equally amazing in combat.

I don't know how much you skimmed, but you're saying what you did is the opposite of my approach, which is entirely inaccurate. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'll take a look at your suggestions. If I find some of them useful, do you mind if I use them in my tweaking (including possibly being posted on a website) so long as I give you due credit?

[Set]

Fair point! I may actually do this. Brings the paladin up into question though... But overhauling that for different alignments would suck. :smallsigh:

The Paladin is a bit of a sacred cow. I'd leave it LG only, and, if I wanted 'paladins of other alignments,' I'd use the ones in Unearthed Arcana (Paladins of Freedom, Tyranny, Slaughter) for CG, LE and CE champions.


Now, to that the fighter fixes... I love them. No, seriously, this is near exactly what I'm looking for.

Also, Set, should I ever put up my campaign setting online would you be OK with me implementing a lot of your suggestions if I give you due credit? :smallredface:

Glad you like them, and feel free to use them however you wish. I'm not the creator or owner of D&D IP, so any modification I make is in the spirit of the OGL, free for all to use as they see fit.

As for spells, IMO, *many* spell-related issues don't always involve a spell being 'broken,' but a creature type having a broken ability. The ability to Gate in a creature (or Planar Bind one, or whatever) isn't broken, so much as the ability of a CR 8 Efreeti to pump out three Wishes a day. Alter Self / Wild Shape / etc. isn't 'broken' so much as 1 or 2 HD critters have +6 Natural Armor is excessive, or dinosaurs that have rake, pounce and a poison attack are over-the-top. A great number of game elements, in many cases archetypal fantasy elements, such as mind control magics, summoning magics and shapechanging effects, are thrown out of whack because some of the monsters that one can mind control / summon / shapechange into are just stupidly unbalanced for their CR. Designing a creature in a world filled with enchanters, necromancers, transmuters, druids, conjurers, etc. and giving that creature powers *that you don't want the players to have,* is just flat out foolish. Even if the game was neutered into a fantasy-less world with no enchantment, shapechanging, summoning, etc. there's nothing to stop somebody from using Diplomacy or Leadership or *just flat out bribing* a self-interested 'monster' into abusing the hell out of it's unbalanced power.

If a highly intelligent Efreeti can pump out three Wishes a day, and there is absolutely no game mechanical cost for him doing so, he's absolutely going to run and find the first mortal fool he can get his oversized red mitts on and say, 'Kay, here's the deal. I will grant you a Wish a day, and make your life here one of wine, women and song, and all you have to do is read off two scrolls a day that I'll be writing down for you. The scrolls will say stuff like, "I wish my Efreeti friend had a +1 inherent bonus to his Charisma," and if you read it wrong or try to trick me, I'll just refuse to grant it, kill your butt, and offer a life of eternal paradise to a smarter mortal than you...'

Barghest with infinite HD from Feed? Infinite Shadows via Create Spawn? Shambling Mounds with a Con of 4000 because it has a +1 Shocking Dagger stuck in it's craw? CharOp thought experiments involving Sarrukh and infinitely powerful kobolds? All stem from monsters with stupid design elements that would never be allowed to a character class or PC race, and yet, thanks to diplomacy, leadership, enchantment, transmutation, conjuration, etc. can easily end up in PC hands.

The real game-breaking stuff isn't in the Player's Handbook, it's in the Monster Manual, and it's easy enough to tweak. Let people summon up Efreeti, only to find out that by 'grant wish' they mean 'I'll so something for you, didja know that I can do some minor/major creation and fabricate stuff?' not 'cast a 9th level spell that was, terribly inconveniently, named 'Wish'.' Let the 3rd level wizard alter self into a lizardfolk, troglodyte or kuo-toan and break it to him gently that medium sized critters rarely have more than a +2 or +3 natural armor. Let the Master of Shrouds summon up some shadows, just tweak Create Spawn so that he can't use them to rebuke himself an army of them and, controlling their Spawn through those Rebuked, send them out to envelope the world in Shadows. Maybe people killed by Shadows, etc. have a *chance* of returning as shadows, but it's nothing that anyone can control or predict. Maybe Spawn are never under the control of their creator.

Just so long as the official answer to 'why isn't the world engulfed in Shadows' or 'why can't I get infinite wishes by Gating in an Efreeti' isn't 'uh, because the designers of the game didn't think anyone would do that.' :)

[The Neoclassic]

Set, I like your approach! I guess I'll have to check each and every monster now before I let it into my setting, heh.

As for Alter Self, which several people mentioned... It states that the assumed form must be the same type as the caster. Doesn't that mean one should be restricted to humanoid forms? So, if one only plays with a few sorts of humanoids, wouldn't that cut out a lot of the issues with it?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Set, I like your approach! I guess I'll have to check each and every monster now before I let it into my setting, heh.

As for Alter Self, which several people mentioned... It states that the assumed form must be the same type as the caster. Doesn't that mean one should be restricted to humanoid forms? So, if one only plays with a few sorts of humanoids, wouldn't that cut out a lot of the issues with it?unless the caster is an Outsider(1 feat), Undead(0 LA template), Construct(Warforged), or Monstrous Humanoid(+1 LA).

[AstralFire]

As she only plays with core, Outsider (Aasimar, Tiefling) and Monstrous Humanoids are the ones she's most likely to encounter.

[The Neoclassic]

As she only plays with core, Outsider (Aasimar, Tiefling) and Monstrous Humanoids are the ones she's most likely to encounter.

And I've decided to exclude monstrous humanoids from my setting; I just don't have the right niche for them. At least, not on this continent (so if they exist, casters don't know about them). So... All my alter self problems may be solved?! :smallbiggrin:

Then I can move on to the far more daunting task of tweaking polymorph. I may just chuck PAO; doesn't seem worth the fixing.

[AstralFire]

Outsider might still be an issue. :smalltongue:

[The Neoclassic]

Outsider might still be an issue. :smalltongue:

If an aasimar or tiefling tries to cast this spell... They get treated like a humanoid? Or I may just change the spell to be humanoid-specific, and just list the races one can turn into (all my base races plus maybe tiefling and aasimar).

[Fax Celestis]

If an aasimar or tiefling tries to cast this spell... They get treated like a humanoid? Or I may just change the spell to be humanoid-specific, and just list the races one can turn into (all my base races plus maybe tiefling and aasimar).

Better solution: Aasimar and Tiefling become LA+1 templates to put on top of existing races (I mean, why can't you have an aasimar halfling or a tielfing half-orc?). Their type doesn't change.

[AstralFire]

Better solution: Aasimar and Tiefling become LA+1 templates to put on top of existing races (I mean, why can't you have an aasimar halfling or a tielfing half-orc?). Their type doesn't change.

I like this solution much better. Also kills Lesser Aasimar. Though Aasimar and Tiefling are kinda weak for +1s, IIRC.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wizard
Gain 3 + Int. mod. skill points every level.
Gain the feat "Extra Slot" (Complete Arcane) at 7th level, then again at 13th level and at 19th level.
Greater Magic Knowledge: At 20th level the wizard can use spells from one of his banned magic schools, for all effects the selected magic school is not banned anymore. If the Wizard doesn't have any magic school banned then he gains the ability to prepare all his spells in 10 minutes instead of 1 hour and prepare a single spell in 1 minute.


Slight issue: the self educated sorcerer now has more skill points from the class than the formally educated wizard.

[Milskidasith]

Before you factor in that Int is probably a dump stat for sorcs and intelligence is the primary stat for wizards.

Besides, rogues have no education and get way more skill points; I don't think education even applies to any of these skills but knowledge, and knowledge (arcana) comes naturally to sorcs anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

I like this solution much better. Also kills Lesser Aasimar. Though Aasimar and Tiefling are kinda weak for +1s, IIRC.

They are as base races, but as templates they get a lot stronger. I'd still swap that Cha penalty on Tiefling to a bonus, myself, but that's another story.

[AstralFire]

They are as base races, but as templates they get a lot stronger. I'd still swap that Cha penalty on Tiefling to a bonus, myself, but that's another story.

Point. A very good point.

Most races with a Cha penalty, I don't understand it. Class features seem to rely on Charisma as force of personality, but races seem to use it as likability.

[Set]

If an aasimar or tiefling tries to cast this spell... They get treated like a humanoid?

When you've got a choice between nuking a spell that every spellcaster might want to use, and a race that only a niche few might try, go with altering the race. Change Planetouched to Humanoids with the (extraplanar) subtype and go for it.

It also shuts down cold any discussion of whether or not a Tiefling or Aasimar gets free access to all martial weapon proficiencies.

[Set]

Point. A very good point.

Most races with a Cha penalty, I don't understand it. Class features seem to rely on Charisma as force of personality, but races seem to use it as likability.

Dwarves, in particular, are a strange case. Described as having forceful personalities and usually with some sort of city-states run by a hereditary monarchy, a Charisma penalty really makes no sense for them. If Dwarven rulers (and their subjects) were inherently unlikable and antisocial (which they aren't, in the flavor text), wouldn't their societies be more like those of Orcs, who quite often *are* inherently unlikable and antisocial? These are the proud and civilized Dwarves of D&D, not Grumpy, Grouchy and Dopey.

IMO, Dwarves should have a Dex penalty instead. Dex has nothing to do with Craft skills, so having stubby fingers and stumpy legs won't affect their legendary status as master craftsmen, just their ability to perform acrobatics.

[Gnomo]

Slight issue: the self educated sorcerer now has more skill points from the class than the formally educated wizard.
Well, the not-at-all-educated barbarian has more skill points than the trained fighter and the street punk rogue has a lot more skill points than the zealously devoted cleric, I don't think skill points are related to formal education, I think access to certain skills (like Profession, Knowledge, Heal, etc) are related to formal education.

[Woot Spitum]

As far as balancing the cleric goes, I would like to point out that automatically knowing all the spells on your spell list is ten times more useful than heavy armor proficiency.

Replacing the cleric with the favored soul will do a lot more to balance the game.

[AstralFire]

On the 'Favored Soul' note - the Tier 1s should need two stats to cast.

Wizards, Druids and Clerics get their save DCs set by Charisma.

That will do wonders. Not everything, but a lot.

[warrl]

As far as balancing the cleric goes, I would like to point out that automatically knowing all the spells on your spell list is ten times more useful than heavy armor proficiency.

I would agree, but... looking at it from a world perspective, rather than a game perspective:

Clerics get their spells from their deity. So if you were speaking of the first cleric, it would make sense that he would not know of a spell until his deity had given it to him at least once.

However, we aren't discussing the first cleric. Or even anywhere near the first.

Nearly all good clerics, most non-evil clerics, and at least some evil clerics will be members of religious orders that share information among members of the same order (and possibly other orders of similar alignment).

And it isn't really exhaustive information. It's "Once God gave me a spell that did <blah>." Not like a wizard's complete notes.

For that matter, they could pick it up from peasants. "Once my grandfather's sister-in-law's cousin's farmhand's brother saw a priest of whatsisname start mumbling something and waving his holy symbol, and <blah> happened." That's plenty for a cleric to know that he might ask his deity for that spell. A wizard would need a lot more detail before he could even begin the months of research to figure out how to do the same thing.

So it simply makes sense that every cleric should know of every, or nearly every, cleric spell.

And for a cleric, it takes:
* knowing of a spell
* praying to be granted that spell
* sufficiently high level that the deity approves

In other words, a cleric having once heard of a spell - name and/or brief description of effects - is equivalent to a wizard having a spell in his spellbook. And every adventuring cleric should be presumed to have heard of most cleric spells.

[The Neoclassic]

I would agree, but... looking at it from a world perspective, rather than a game perspective:

Clerics get their spells from their deity. So if you were speaking of the first cleric, it would make sense that he would not know of a spell until his deity had given it to him at least once.

However, we aren't discussing the first cleric. Or even anywhere near the first.

Nearly all good clerics, most non-evil clerics, and at least some evil clerics will be members of religious orders that share information among members of the same order (and possibly other orders of similar alignment).

And it isn't really exhaustive information. It's "Once God gave me a spell that did <blah>." Not like a wizard's complete notes.

For that matter, they could pick it up from peasants. "Once my grandfather's sister-in-law's cousin's farmhand's brother saw a priest of whatsisname start mumbling something and waving his holy symbol, and <blah> happened." That's plenty for a cleric to know that he might ask his deity for that spell. A wizard would need a lot more detail before he could even begin the months of research to figure out how to do the same thing.

So it simply makes sense that every cleric should know of every, or nearly every, cleric spell.

And for a cleric, it takes:
* knowing of a spell
* praying to be granted that spell
* sufficiently high level that the deity approves

In other words, a cleric having once heard of a spell - name and/or brief description of effects - is equivalent to a wizard having a spell in his spellbook. And every adventuring cleric should be presumed to have heard of most cleric spells.

Agreed. I think you put it well. However, one could compromise and trim down spell lists a bit by deity. Take some of the more powerful or flavorful spells and restrict them by deity. "No, the god of sitting-down-and-shutting-up will not grant you a [sonic] spell." If done sparingly, it might narrow down options a wee bit, but very reasonably, and not be as much work as writing a totally new spell list for each deity's clerics.

[The Neoclassic]

Also... I changed atonement to Universal, because I didn't feel abjuration fit. Is there any chance of that causing problems? Oh, and I think I'm going to be changing all Conjuration (Healing) to Necromancy (Healing), since it makes more sense to have Conjuration be summoning objects/creatures while Necromancy deals with life/death forces.

[Woot Spitum]

I honestly don't see any problem explaining how clerics only get a limited number of spells known. When someone becomes a cleric, their deity gives them power in the form of spells. The cleric asks for certain spells and gets them. But if the cleric decides he wants different powers, he has to prove himself worthy by advancing his deity's agenda. In-game, getting enough experience serving his deity in order to advance a level is sufficient service to earn new spells for a cleric.

Let's be honest, heavy armor proficiency is not that big of a deal. AC maximizers will tell you that a mithril chain shirt plus high dex beats full plate every time in the long run. And experienced cleric players will tell you that spells like air walk, obscuring mist, darkness, deeper darkness, wall of stone, and blindness will do a lot more to prevent enemies from damaging you than high AC ever will.

It's not melee capabilities that unbalance the cleric, it's the spellcasting.

[AstralFire]

Agreed. I think you put it well. However, one could compromise and trim down spell lists a bit by deity. Take some of the more powerful or flavorful spells and restrict them by deity. "No, the god of sitting-down-and-shutting-up will not grant you a [sonic] spell." If done sparingly, it might narrow down options a wee bit, but very reasonably, and not be as much work as writing a totally new spell list for each deity's clerics.

I'm still advocating splitting the casting stat. It won't do everything, but it will do a lot, especially in the pre-endgame.

[Gnomo]

Have any of you playtested adding MADness to the casters, I consider it to be a good easy fix (just like reducing the spell slots / power points recovery per rest) but I want to hear real experiences with this.

btw, omygod! It's AstralFire.

[Twilight Jack]

Have any of you playtested adding MADness to the casters, I consider it to be a good easy fix (just like reducing the spell slots / power points recovery per rest) but I want to hear real experiences with this.

btw, omygod! It's AstralFire.

The problem I see with adding MAD to casters (esp. arcane casters) is that not all spells work the same. For example, if I'm a Wizard and my bonus spells are covered by Int, but my Save DCs are covered by Cha, then I'm just going to concentrate on my Intelligence and stick to the wealth of spells in core that don't require any saving throws. It nerfs my glitterdust a bit, but I won't care anymore by the time I've got solid fog.

[Set]

As far as balancing the cleric goes, I would like to point out that automatically knowing all the spells on your spell list is ten times more useful than heavy armor proficiency.

Replacing the cleric with the favored soul will do a lot more to balance the game.

Alternately, and this is a larger change, make *all* spellcasters choose at 1st elvel whether they are going to be Spontaneous casters (small spells known list, flexible casting, more slots / day) or Prepared casters (potentially unlimited spells known, but only leans 2 / level for free and must record them in a prayerbook/spellbook, less castings / day, not flexible).

Prepared Bards who carry around a sheaf of papers they've collected in their travels and must prepare spells from them? Go for it. Spontaneous Druids, who only know a few tricks, but can cast more spells / day flexibly? Go for it.

Clerics (and Druids, Paladins, Rangers and Adepts) no longer automatically know every spell on their list. They can have a potentially unlimited spells known, but have to acquire them *or* they can know a small selection, cast them flexibly and get more castings / day.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

My advice for balancing core.

Sorcerers and Wizards: get rid of the broken spells everyone before has already mentioned

Fighters and Barbarians: make them one class. . . give fighters fort and reflex as well rage, and the uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge ect, in addition to their fighter feats. I know people will probably not like me for saying it but seriously how many ppl have gone Fighter2/ barbarian the rest just for the feats?

Bards and Rogues: They're fine.

Druids and Rangers: Take the animal companion away from druids (who are their own animal companion and dont need it) and give full animal companion progression to rangers. done

Monks: Give them good BA progression leave the rest alone.

Paladins: Give them Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample as bonus feats. And in those early levels where they have 0 spell casting give them access to a certain number or Orisons (divine cantrips)

Clerics: honestly I dont have a problem with clerics. . .if your devoting all your feats to becoming a warrior cleric yeah you can do alot of damage and then heal it all, or you could devote all your feats to improving your clerical abilities and be the most awesome healer ever. . . its a flavor thing in my book. I suppose if you dont like that they have so much martial capacity take away heavy armor proficency and make the only weapon their proficient with their dieties favored weapon. That might help.

These would be MINOR changes that wouldnt completely aleviate the imbalance but might help make things a little more equal.