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Trodon
2009-08-03, 06:02 PM
How many ways are there to do this? Can they stack? D&D 3.5 by the way.

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 06:06 PM
Incantrix capstone, dweomerkeeper capstone, arcane thesis, easy metamagic, practical metamagic, metamagic school focus, improved metamagic[epic]

They all stack

erikun
2009-08-03, 06:11 PM
Arcane Thesis (PHB2) lowers all the metamagic for one spell by one level.

Easy Metamagic (Dragon #325) lowers the cost of one metamagic feat by one level.

Improved Metamagic (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic)) lowers the cost of all metamagic by one level. (minimum +1)

Incantarix (Player's Guide to Faerūn) apparently, although I don't have the book to confirm.

Edwin
2009-08-03, 06:16 PM
DweomerKeeper's capstone is awesome, but not exactly a viable choice unless he's already going that way.

Incantrix is awesome all round, so that's a yes yes, if you're allowed.

Easy Metamagic and Metamagic school focus are my personal favorites, because they're relatively easy accessible and they give -2 level adjustment for one particular school 3/day, or -1 in any school 3/day.

Edit: Uh, and Arcane Thesis is a lovely little buffer.

erikun
2009-08-03, 06:21 PM
Easy Metamagic and Metamagic school focus are my personal favorites, because they're relatively easy accessible and they give -2 level adjustment for one particular school 3/day, or -1 in any school 3/day.
Just a word of caution: I wouldn't try negative level metamagic adjustments in a real game, unless you want lv.1 kobolds to fireball you in your sleep. :smallamused:

Trodon
2009-08-03, 06:37 PM
How many of these can be used at level 6? Sorry I forgot to put that in the OP.

Edwin
2009-08-03, 06:48 PM
Just a word of caution: I wouldn't try negative level metamagic adjustments in a real game, unless you want lv.1 kobolds to fireball you in your sleep. :smallamused:

No no, not reducing the metamagic to negative levels, simply reducing the level adjustment by 1 or 2.

My bad for not being specific, I suppose.

erikun
2009-08-03, 06:58 PM
@Edwin: Ah, good point. I guess I've been reading too many optimization threads, if that's the first thing that popped into my head.

@Trodon:

Easy Metamagic requires one Metamagic feat, and applies to that feat. (2 feats)

Arcane Thesis requires Kno: Arcana at 9 ranks, so can be picked up at level 6. Also need to know the spell you will Thesis, obviously.

Practical Metamagic requires Spellcraft at 8 ranks, Dragonblood subtype, and spontaneous casting. It also requires knowing a Metamagic feat, which it applies to. Minimum level 6 Sorcerer.

Metamagic School Focus requires Spell Focus or being a specialized wizard.

So if you were a specialist wizard, you could pick up Metamagic School Focus (lv.1), any one Metamagic feat (lv.3), Easy Metamagic (lv.5), and Arcane Thesis (lv.6)

For a Sorcerer, you can get one Metamagic feat (lv.1), Easy Metamagic (lv.3), and Practical Metamagic (lv.6). [EDIT] You'll also need to be a Dragonblood race.

Tar Palantir
2009-08-03, 07:04 PM
Also, a sorcerer can grab Versatile Spellcaster, which allows to spell slots of Level X to be expended to cast a Level x+1 spell. This can be used to cast spells of a higher level than you normally can, as well as to mitigate metamagic costs and make Level 0 slots useful(ish).

Gaiyamato
2009-08-03, 07:48 PM
A sorcerer could just take the ACF from PHBII so that metamagic has no effect anyway. lol.

Trodon
2009-08-03, 08:24 PM
So if you were a specialist wizard, you could pick up Metamagic School Focus (lv.1), any one Metamagic feat (lv.3), Easy Metamagic (lv.5), and Arcane Thesis (lv.6)

Alright level 6 human necromancer what should my human feat be?

FMArthur
2009-08-03, 08:50 PM
Practical Metamagic requires the ability to spontaneously cast 3rd-level spells, not 6 levels of Sorceror. In addition to being dragonblooded, having 8 spellcraft ranks, and of course having a metamagic feat. Being dragonblooded is trivially easy thanks to the dragonblooded races in Dragon Magic. The Spontaneous Divination ACF (Complete Champion) can qualify a wizard. Other spontanteous caster classes (even divine ones) can qualify as well.

Glimbur
2009-08-03, 09:06 PM
A sorcerer could just take the ACF from PHBII so that metamagic has no effect anyway. lol.

Unless I am misremembering that, you trade your familar for the ability to use metamagic on spontaneous spells without increasing the casting time to a full round action a limited number of times a day. It does not let you metamagic for no spell level adjustment.

PirateMonk
2009-08-03, 09:17 PM
Also, a sorcerer can grab Versatile Spellcaster, which allows to spell slots of Level X to be expended to cast a Level x+1 spell. This can be used to cast spells of a higher level than you normally can, as well as to mitigate metamagic costs and make Level 0 slots useful(ish).

How does this allow casting spells of a higher level than normal when sorcerers don't know any spells of levels they can't cast?

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 09:19 PM
How does this allow casting spells of a higher level than normal when sorcerers don't know any spells of levels they can't cast?

Metamagiced spells

Glimbur
2009-08-03, 09:19 PM
How does this allow casting spells of a higher level than normal when sorcerers don't know any spells of levels they can't cast?

You use it to cast metamagic-ed spells. If you have up to 5th level spells, burn two 5th level slots to cast a Split Ray Enervation; for example. Acts as a 6th level spell, but isn't quite.

olentu
2009-08-03, 10:45 PM
Well I would contend that that is not actually the way versatile spellcaster works except for possibly with heighten spell but the way I would side with is severely broken and so unless someone wishes I will leave it at that.

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 10:49 PM
Well I would contend that that is not actually the way versatile spellcaster works except for possibly with heighten spell but the way I would side with is severely broken and so unless someone wishes I will leave it at that.

The creators say thats exactly what they intended it for.

How is it broken? It lets the sorcerer, for the price of a feat, more spell slots and a metamagic feat, cast spells 1 higher than a wizard can. And only metamagic spells, and only on the levels that the wizard isnt a spell level ahead.

olentu
2009-08-03, 10:59 PM
Ok then. Because a spell modified by a metamagic feat in all way operates at its original spell level (except for heighten spell) split ray enervation would have to operate as a 4th level spell with respect to this feat. The only possible restriction on this ruling would be the section where said modified spell is prepared and cast as a higher level spell but as I have not been able to find a section of the rules that actually says what cast as a heigher level spell means I must assume that this is in reference to the spell slot that the spell take up when prepared or cast spontaneously. However since versatile spellcaster does not use create, use, or require a slot of the level of the spell that is being cast the restriction would not apply and as such except for heightened spells any spell that is modified by a metamagic feat counts as its original level with respect to versatile spellcaster.

Glimbur
2009-08-03, 11:05 PM
So you think that Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a Split Ray Enervation from a fourth level slot? That's... an odd reading.

I find it fits the fluff well, because Sorcerers could be about raw power (metamagic'd spells they know) instead of finesse (higher level spell). But that argument has too many holes in it to be very defensible.

olentu
2009-08-03, 11:15 PM
So you think that Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a Split Ray Enervation from a fourth level slot? That's... an odd reading.

I find it fits the fluff well, because Sorcerers could be about raw power (metamagic'd spells they know) instead of finesse (higher level spell). But that argument has too many holes in it to be very defensible.

The only hole I could see is possibly the fact that an undefined term is used in the general explination of how metamagic feats work, but if someone counts having an undefined term to mean that this does not work under the rules (even though I believe that my interpretation does work unless the undefined term specifically happens to have a definition that keeps it from working) then no metamagic feat (except possible heighten spell) ever works under the rules.

Oh and I do not think that Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a Split Ray Enervation from a fourth level slot. I do not think that at all.

What I do think is that a split ray enervation operates as a 4th level spell with respect to this feat and as such one could use two third level slots to cast a split ray enervation.

Glimbur
2009-08-03, 11:29 PM
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

versus


You can use two spell slots of the same level to
cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

Upon actually reading the feat... if you know a spell, and you have a metamagic feat, do you "know" the metamagic'd spell? This is not as clear-cut as I first thought. Since the general rules for metamagic state that an altered spell is cast as a higher level spell, and you are casting the spell, it should take two spell slots of the level below the altered spell level.

olentu
2009-08-03, 11:59 PM
versus



Upon actually reading the feat... if you know a spell, and you have a metamagic feat, do you "know" the metamagic'd spell? This is not as clear-cut as I first thought. Since the general rules for metamagic state that an altered spell is cast as a higher level spell, and you are casting the spell, it should take two spell slots of the level below the altered spell level.

I would have to say that one does not cast a maximized fireball one casts the spell fireball that happens to be modified by the metamagic feat maximize spell at the time of the casting. So I am saying that I do not think that maximized fireball exists as a spell.

However while it is cast as as a higher level spell (whatever that means) it still operates as a in the case of fireball third level spell. And as such since one can use two spell slots of 2nd level to cast a 3rd level spell (which a maxamized fireball would operate as) unless you can give me a definition of what cast as a higher level spell means then there is no problem.

This is beacause when I read the feat I interpret it as giving the ability use two spell slots of level X to cast a spell of level X+1. Now it does not say use two spell slots of level X to cast a spell that is cast as a spell of level X+1. It does not care what the spell is cast as only what its level is. Now I am taking the word operate to mean to function so using this since a metamagic spell operates as or functions as a spell of its original level it satisfies the condition of being a level X+1 spell where X+1 is equal to the modified spells original level and as such can be cast by using two slots of level X.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 12:00 AM
Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree then.

olentu
2009-08-04, 12:04 AM
Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree then.

Well if you wish it to be so then there is nothing that I can do to stop you and so it appears that we must.