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Korivan
2009-08-03, 08:53 PM
Can anyone point me to a good thread with feats, magic items, and other things that a monk would be interested in. A friend of mine is making one and I thought I'd help do some research. Some backround info: Neither one of us has made a monk, the campaign setting is gestalt, and its combat heavy-role play light. Already looked at www.brilliantgameologist.com and several threads on this site and wizards of the coast. So far, I havnt got much to go on. Brilliantgameologist gave an ok breakdown of some options, but didn't say where they were located or gave the actualy handbooks description, which is vital since our dm won't allow anything he can't verify was published by wizards of the coast. Any other websight nobody is giving me much else but "don't play them, they're too feat and magic item dependent"...but so far, I don't get where they are coming from. Any ideas?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 08:55 PM
There's a pair of gauntlets in the MiC that allow monks to make melee touch attacks, though that's a byproduct of an oversight by the designers than an actual design feature.

Ghosttouch Gauntlets? Something like that.

Keld Denar
2009-08-03, 09:04 PM
The trick with playing a monk is to take what you want and get out. 9/10 of the best things a monk offers are right there in the first 2-6 levels. Seriously. Even in Gestalt, you have better things to do with the rest of your levels.

I'd recommend Monk2/PsyWarX//FullBAB Y

Duskblade would be totally rad for your FullBAB side. Its a little MAD, and you can't exactly forsake wisdom with Kung Fu Genius or Carmandine Monk because of PsyWar reqs.

Also interesting might be

Monk2/PsyWarX//ClericY

You don't get the full BAB, but thats nothing a little Divine Power can't fix. You could also do Monk2/ArdentX//ClericY if you picked the right mantles.

PS, if you do do the Monk2/PsyWar thing, the feat you are interested in is Tashalatora. Its in Secrets of Sarlona, and Eberron book, but its really good for a monkish character. You actually get more, and better monkly abilities as a Monk2/PsyWarX than you do as a straight Monk.

Korivan
2009-08-03, 09:11 PM
We don't have access to any eberon books, and I'm not sure his feelings towards psionics. I know he'll rely on me for most of the buffing (went with wizard/factorum), so I'm pretty sure he's going for straight damage stuff. He did tell me that he wanted to find some damage reduction and or regeneration/fast healing...but i'm not sure how he can acheive those.

Gnaeus
2009-08-03, 09:11 PM
Well, monk in Gestalt isn't all lose.

You get all good saves. You get evasion. Some bonus feats, and free defenses, that isn't awful.

The worst thing you could do is think that as a monk you should be hitting things. Virtually everything that actually helps you with monk is passive.

Gestalt with a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Psion. You will then be able to use those classes game winning abilities, and you won't be far behind anyone in your party. Pretend that you are a Wiz, Sorc, or Psion, and your monkness will give you better saves, hit points, skills, and a few marginally useful bonuses.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 09:12 PM
Oh, fast healing is easy.

Pick the feats Combat Focus, Combat Stability, and Combat Vigor from the PHB2

Cieyrin
2009-08-03, 09:32 PM
There's some fun monk feats in Complete Warrior, Player's Handbook 2, Sandstorm and probably a couple other things. Ones of interest in my mind are Weakening Touch (-6 Str for 1 minute, no save, just need to hit), Ki Blast (maybe not effective but cool looking thematically), Freezing the Lifeblood (Paralyze Humanoids, which you'll probably come across quite frequently, given how prevalent humans and demihumans are, right?) and Pharaoh's Fist (Stun your target AND his adjacent buddies, with one attack).

As a gestalt game, if you want to make him as martial artsy as possible, probably pair w/ Fighter for bonus feats and look at Oriental Adventures for their styles, some of which are pretty badass, like Empty Hand Style for increasing your unarmed damage by one size category, which stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack and Monk's Belt. Also look into the Tome of Battle, specifically at the Swordsage, as they're definitely Monk-esque and some people will tell you what the Monk should have been. Even if you don't want to deal with the class, definitely consider the Martial Study feats to pick up some choice maneuvers, as several of them dovetail well with unarmed strikes.

You could also run a gish type monk and go for Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane) or Sacred Fist (Complete Divine), with Sorcerer or Cleric for your other class to get into those, respectively. It gets pretty MAD but can be definitely rewarding as well. Tattooed Monk is definitely another option, even if it's starting to look dated these days.

Just a couple ideas. There's definitely Monk support out there, just gotta look a little harder for it, as Monks kinda come off as the abused stepchild as D&D classes go.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-03, 09:52 PM
Intuitive attack (Use wisdom instead of strength for attach bonus)
helps a lot too.
And monk seems just built for VOP, especially when it comes to the numerous bonus feats like touch of golden ice (poisoned touch attack), etc

Of course if you VOP, you can't get items like monk's belt which is handy.

Another route which helps is dual class with rogue (with Acetic Rogue feat) and pick up sneak attack since the monk is built well for stealth already. (think rogue with better AC and never needs to draw a weapon) Coupled with stunning attack and Invisible Fist it can be devistating:

I'm hidden, I get a surprise round and attack with 5 attacks, doing 5d20+50d6 damage. Next round I beat init and, whiile your flat footed do another 5 attacks at 5d20+50d6 damage. then I go invisible and take a 5' step back. the next round, I'm still invisible and I take my full round of attack (5 attacks) with a sneak attack each. I've just done another 5d20+50d6 damage. One of the attacks stun you. You can't hit me because your stunned. I become visible. Next round, my first attack stuns you again and again I sneak full round attack for another 5d20+40d6.
There 4 rounds without being hit. How much damage was done?

look to building towards spring attack, with the monks high speed, you can move 30 feet, attack and move 30 feet away to avoid the counter attack.

Yet another route is the sumo wrestler approach. Constantly trip you oppenents, allowing a AoO when the get up. Use your AoO to trip them again. this route includes bull rushing, and grapple (make sure you understand the rules well.

woodenbandman
2009-08-03, 09:54 PM
I'm going to agree with the Psychic Warrior idea.

You could also try out the Unarmed Swordsage out of Tome of Battle, which is like a monk but more awesome.

Korivan
2009-08-03, 10:01 PM
Wow, these are some really great ideas guys. I'm sure they'll come in handy. On a side note, does SR apply to beneficial magic if the monk wants the spell to take affect on them? Can they lower it? And if so, how long does it take and is there a way to speed that process up?

holywhippet
2009-08-03, 10:01 PM
It would help to get an item or a class that can cast mage armour.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 10:01 PM
Standard action to lower.

Keld Denar
2009-08-03, 10:02 PM
VoP is bad for a monk. Monks are MORE dependant on items than any other class. Just because you don't need a weapon in your hands, or armor on your back, doesn't mean you don't need 50,000g in other gear. VoP leaves you with about 45% of the wealth that anyone else your level would have. LESS THAN HALF. The benefits are only standard stat boosts. They don't cover things like consumables, methods of flight and/or short range teleportation, cracking obscure DRs, adding any kind of bonus damage, or basically anything needed to play at mid-high levels.

Also, since AoOs occur before the action that triggers them, an AoO made against a person standing up from prone is made while the person is prone. A prone person can't be tripped again. So, you could smack them, but then they'd be standing. Still effective, but not ZOMGOGGLEZ PERMATRIP! Plus, the only thing monks have going for them tripwise is that they get it as a bonus feat. Fighters get bonus feats too. So yea...

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-03, 10:14 PM
Also, since AoOs occur before the action that triggers them, an AoO made against a person standing up from prone is made while the person is prone. A prone person can't be tripped again. So, you could smack them, but then they'd be standing. Still effective, but not ZOMGOGGLEZ PERMATRIP!

hmm, good thing my DM doesn't know that, and doesn't read this forum. And drinks a fifth of whiskey each time we play.

Okay, what about the Gestalt Monk/Rogue with invisible fist and intuitive attack. Any holes there?

elliott20
2009-08-03, 10:44 PM
where's Sir Giacomo when you need him? The guy has done a lot of monk builds that can be quite effective.

I think though, that the OP needs to clarify what kind of boundaries he has. i.e. I've heard gestalt a couple times but I can't remember if OP said he is ALLOWED to gestalt or not.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 11:07 PM
His current monk in the Test of Spite dungeon wields a spiked chain but does not have the proficiency feat for it.

Glimbur
2009-08-03, 11:11 PM
hmm, good thing my DM doesn't know that, and doesn't read this forum. And drinks a fifth of whiskey each time we play.

Okay, what about the Gestalt Monk/Rogue with invisible fist and intuitive attack. Any holes there?

You only get a standard or move action on a surprise round, and flurrying takes a full attack.

quick_comment
2009-08-03, 11:20 PM
Play an unarmed swordsage.

T.G. Oskar
2009-08-03, 11:55 PM
Can anyone point me to a good thread with feats, magic items, and other things that a monk would be interested in. A friend of mine is making one and I thought I'd help do some research. Some backround info: Neither one of us has made a monk, the campaign setting is gestalt, and its combat heavy-role play light. Already looked at www.brilliantgameologist.com and several threads on this site and wizards of the coast. So far, I havnt got much to go on. Brilliantgameologist gave an ok breakdown of some options, but didn't say where they were located or gave the actualy handbooks description, which is vital since our dm won't allow anything he can't verify was published by wizards of the coast. Any other websight nobody is giving me much else but "don't play them, they're too feat and magic item dependent"...but so far, I don't get where they are coming from. Any ideas?

Usually the first go for an aspiring Monk. Color-coded and slightly marked for your convenience. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) However, I believe it to be a bit incomplete in some regards.

Mostly, the reason why Monks are considered too item dependent is because of their usual limitations. First, MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency); Monks require at least four high stats to be competitive (Strength for hit and damage, Dex for Reflex and AC, Con for Fortitude and high HP, and Wis for AC and the Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm DC), five if you wish to have more skill points. Second, they have less BAB than Fighters, troubles with dealing much damage (either you become mobile and strike once or stay and hit a lot in exchange for getting a lot of damage), and generally having a build identity crisis (either they behave like a melee combatant or a roguish class, but not both). Third, their later skills tend to weaken them instead of strengthening them; Wholeness of Body isn't strong enough to be worthwhile, Purity of Body doesn't work against some diseases, Diamond Body is gained TOO late and most people won't be using poisons by then (some monsters may, but their uses will go against someone else), Diamond Soul's spell resistance is more of a hindrance than a boon, and Quivering Palm is limited to once per week, which makes it near useless, as well as having a decent mobility ability limited to once per day. Fourth, they can be replaced decently with a magic item (Monk's Belt), an item they pretty much NEED to be competitive most of the time. Fifth, they can't enchant their weapons, which becomes limiting by the moment you actually need it (so you can't have flaming, wounding, +5, or whatever kind of magic weapon enhancement you need), unless you buy yet another item which is prohibitively expensive.

Now, I don't say Monk is bad, but those are the usual explanations as to why Monks aren't as useful (and why most people eventually go with the "go Unarmed Swordsage"). If you want to make it useful, you'll have to deal with how it can be worked, what you want to do with it. The usual recommendations are:

--Psionics. The book Secrets of Sarlona offers an excellent feat called Tashalatora. The feat requires you to take another feat (Monastic Training, which allows free multiclassing with a specific class), but it allows you to take some of the needed benefits of a Monk while getting psionic powers. The latter are a much needed boon to the Monk, and allow for pretty interesting builds; furthermore, if you take it with Psionic Warrior, you get extra feats and excellent powers, extra weapon proficiencies, and an excuse for maxing Wisdom.

--Reducing MAD. This one is pretty hard, and most of the time it relies on several books. Weapon Finesse allows you to base unarmed strikes and some monk weapons' attack bonus from Dexterity, which while reducing your damage potential it allows for better hit. Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) and Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon magazine) allow you to use Int instead of Wis for some Monk special abilities. While not as easy, it allows you to spend money and points for what you REALLY need. This leads to the third one:

--Monk's fighting style. Do your friend wants to be a good grappler? A guy that deals multiple strikes? Counter-specialist? Other classes do this a tad better, but the Monk works much better when focused. You either get the best way to Grapple, or the best way to do lots of attacks or the best way to counter, and get as much as you can from it.

--Avoid traps. This mostly refers to Vow of Poverty, since the benefits it offers do not contrast well with what the Monk would receive if it chose the magic items. For example, while you would have an increase in ability scores, you wouldn't be able to, for example, Fly, or be able to strike enemies with concealment, or enchant your unarmed strikes with the needed enhancements, or raise your AC as you should (with things such as deflection bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and even ways to get enhancement bonuses to AC). Vow of Poverty MAY be useful if you plan it correctly (such as going the Psionic way since psionics barely need material components for their powers), but if at any moment you feel you NEED to spend some money to be not merely competitive, but useful, you'll notice VoP isn't for you. This also goes for some PrCs such as Reaping Mauler, since the savvy guys will know how to get Freedom of Movement (either as a ring or as a spell/power), or know the huge weakness of the PrC (it depends on a feat which becomes useless if you grow, thus eliminating the only way to improve the grapple skill).

Since your DM approved Gestalt, the best choice would be to get a class that enhances the Monk instead of weaken it. Psychic Warrior is a great choice, as well as Cleric for the multi-buffing and access to divine feats. If you manage to get Carmendine Monk approved, that opens Psion, Erudite and Wizard. If you want to get more from Con, Incarnate or Totemist (from Magic of Incarnum) aid a lot, especially since you'll be capable of binding very useful soulmelds to your chakras, which may very well allow you to think of VoP (though Monk 3-6/Psion or PsyWar 14-17||Totemist or Incarnate 20 seems like a slightly welcome path for VoP, since soulmelds aren't magic items but at times behave like such, and the rest of the needed buffs and attack abilities are gained through psionics)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-04, 12:14 AM
Yanno, I just had an idea about Monk/Paragon Half-Orc/Bear Warrior/Warshaper...

A kung-fu using dire-bear! That threatens a 30' reach!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 12:16 AM
Reducing MAD. This one is pretty hard, and most of the time it relies on several books. Weapon Finesse allows you to base unarmed strikes and some monk weapons' attack bonus from Dexterity, which while reducing your damage potential it allows for better hit. Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor) and Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon magazine) allow you to use Int instead of Wis for some Monk special abilities. While not as easy, it allows you to spend money and points for what you REALLY need. This leads to the third one:


Go for a Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest monk. You only have to concentrate on Strength and Con that way, with some Wis as a secondary stat, and a touch of Dex for Combat Reflexes if you want.

Oh, and you'll be a dwarf, which helps with the Con issue.

For more info on this, see Fistbeard Beardfist in my sig.

Korivan
2009-08-04, 01:58 AM
As for bounderies requested. Mostly forgetten relms type stuff. No greyhawk, eberron, ravenloft, yada yada yada. Its not a forgoten realms setting, but it is in that spirit. No psionics or TOB of any type. He's not interested in it. No real restrictions otherwise. So long its been published by Wizards of the Coast, and he or we can show him so, its pretty much fair game.

As for item dependant someone posted ealier...just not seeing it. Sure, they could stand to see some tomes, some stat boosters, but no more so then any other class. By time you figure fighters are pumping massive money into weapons and armor, a monk could take half of that for the few magic items they really even need.

He's a human fighter/monk level 2. Currently, i know he has the improved initiative feat, but not sure what else.

As for items, the dm might be pretty lenient on magic item crafting to compinsate how he handled gear and magic items last campaign. (no clerics allowed, we were level 10 before the first person saw a +1 weapon.)

Fighting style, as said earlier, heavy combat. We fight toe to toe alot and thus even the lowely fighter is highly valued in our campaigns.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 01:59 AM
As for item dependant someone posted ealier...just not seeing it. Sure, they could stand to see some tomes, some stat boosters, but no more so then any other class. By time you figure fighters are pumping massive money into weapons and armor, a monk could take half of that for the few magic items they really even need.
Crunch the numbers and get back to us.

Hint: You'll find that Bracers of Armor +5 cost much more than a suit of armor +5.

And the armor has a base armor bonus in addition.

You've got Wis and Dex to AC, but pumping those two stats in addition to Str and Con is going to be expensive...

Fighters basically need Str and Con, and casters just need to boost their primary casting stat.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-04, 04:47 AM
"I want to play a monk" as a character concept does not have to involve the Monk class at all. A Swordsage does everything the Monk class is capable of and plenty more, especially if you use the unarmed variant on page 20 under the Adaptation heading.

For a gestalt character, the monkiest build I can think of would be an Unarmed Swordsage 20// Warblade 20, or maybe pick up Master of the Nine on one side. Focus on martial arts-style maneuvers and stances, along with useful boosts, counters, and the must-have Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink. It won't be quite as useful as taking a full spellcasting class, but it will definitely be a fun and useful character.

Talic
2009-08-04, 04:53 AM
Gestalt, I'd go with:

Monk 2/Psion X // Full BAB X

Reason being that it works off Kung Fu Genius (and Warblade would complement nicely for full BAB).

Psion gives more PP, more good powers, and can do many funky things.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-04, 11:18 AM
Crunch the numbers and get back to us.

Hint: You'll find that Bracers of Armor +5 cost much more than a suit of armor +5.

And the armor has a base armor bonus in addition.

You've got Wis and Dex to AC, but pumping those two stats in addition to Str and Con is going to be expensive...

Fighters basically need Str and Con, and casters just need to boost their primary casting stat.

A MONK CAN"T USE BRACERS! This has already been established on numerous threads here.
Meanwhile VOP grant +10, +8, +6, +4 to 4 abilities at high levels. There is your ability boost.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-04, 11:23 AM
where's Sir Giacomo when you need him? The guy has done a lot of monk builds that can be quite effective.

Giacomo knows as much about Monks as I do about Artificers (hint: Next to nothing, as I hate doing that much number-crunching for a single build). Dman's Monk Handbook is vastly superior. In a straight-up battle between one of Dman's Monks and Giacomo's Joker Monk, Dman's would win every day of the week.

Telonius
2009-08-04, 11:46 AM
A MONK CAN"T USE BRACERS! This has already been established on numerous threads here.
Meanwhile VOP grant +10, +8, +6, +4 to 4 abilities at high levels. There is your ability boost.

... link please? I have never seen this established.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 12:04 PM
A MONK CAN"T USE BRACERS! This has already been established on numerous threads here.
Meanwhile VOP grant +10, +8, +6, +4 to 4 abilities at high levels. There is your ability boost.

Of course monks can use bracers.

VoP monk is a trap.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 01:07 PM
A MONK CAN"T USE BRACERS! This has already been established on numerous threads here.
Nonsense.
Do wearing bracers of armor prevent a monk from using her AC bonus class feature?
No. Bracers of armor grant an armor bonus to AC, but they don’t count as armor worn and thus don’t interfere with a monk’s special abilities. You'll find Bracers of Armor in the DMG under "Wondrous Items", not "Armor". Monks have no penalty to use wondrous items.

The specific prohibition is quite clear:
She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. It has to be armor, and some non-armor item that offers an armor bonus isn't relevant here. Bracers of Armor don't impair a Monk's abilities any more than the Mage Armor spell impairs a Wizard's abilities. Both offer armor bonuses, but aren't armor.

Arakune
2009-08-04, 01:38 PM
I think that instead of wearing bracers of armor, the monk should wear something else.

I dunno, let's see:

Dex 16 (+3) + Wis 18 (+4) + 1 (1st) + Bracers of Armor (+3) + Amulet of natural armor (+2) + Ring (+2) = AC 25, touch 20, flat-footed 18

The same monk with gloves of dexterity instead:

Dex 16 + 2 (+4) + Wis 18 (+4) + 1 (1st) + Amulet of natural armor (+2) + Ring (+2) = AC 23, touch 21, flat-footed 15

The second one is 2 points weaker in the normal AC and 3 points weaker flat-footed. But it have +4 instead of +3 initiative modifier and the gloves are cheaper than the bracers.

For me is almost the same.

Horever, in both cases the HP and To-hit/Damage will probably suffer if you don't use a high point buy.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 01:45 PM
The general way to get more of anything in D&D is to stack a bunch of smaller, cheaper effects rather than buy one big one. Gloves of Dex +6 are 36 K for +3 AC; a ROP +1, Bracers of Armor +1, and Amulet of Natural Armor +1 are only 5000.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 01:50 PM
If the Monk has a Cleric friend, there's a superior alternative to Bracers of Armor: an armor-enhanced robe. First, a robe begins as regular clothing.
Scholar’s Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak. Second, you use the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table (Magic Item Compendium, page 234) to add an armor bonus (up to +8) to either an Arm (bracers) or Body (robe) item. The armor bonus, cost, and even item crafting particulars are the same as for Bracers of Armor. So far, it's all equivalent.

Third, your Cleric friend casts Magic Vestment on your robe.
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. Armor bonuses and armor enhancement bonuses are different bonus types, so they stack. Thanks to this little niche case in the rules and your Cleric friend, your Monk pulls ahead in the AC game.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 01:51 PM
So you are saying that enchanting clothing to be better armor follows different rules than enchanting armor to be better armor? Because a +1 suit of leather armor has a +1 enhancement bonus to its armor bonus, which would overlap with the bonus from magic vestment.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 01:53 PM
So you are saying that enchanting clothing to be better armor follows different rules than enchanting armor to be better armor? Because a +1 suit of leather armor has a +1 enhancement bonus to its armor bonus, which would overlap with the bonus from magic vestment.
Yes, I am. Leather armor has a non-magical armor bonus; clothing does not. There's a specific footnote to the Magic Item Compendium table:
2 Cannot be added to any item that already provides a (nonmagical) armor or shield bonus to AC.
P.S.: There is, of course, no enchanting going on. It's enhancing. Please get that word mixup fixed. Enchanting is for mind-affecting spells, and will never help enhance your armor.

9mm
2009-08-04, 01:59 PM
if you go monk, just grab superior unarmed strike, a monk's belt, then Prc to kensai for a non-expensive (xp is cheap) way to improve your unarmed strike (you'll hit as a 19th level monk, with your fists as 10th lv weapons) and use the other half for full BAB/other tricks.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 02:02 PM
Yes, I am. Leather armor has a non-magical armor bonus; clothing does not. There's a specific footnote to the Magic Item Compendium table:
P.S.: There is, of course, no enchanting going on. It's enhancing. Please get that word mixup fixed. Enchanting is for mind-affecting spells, and will never help enhance your armor.

RAW, it seems to work. I don't like it, but it seems to work.

PS: I meant "enchanting" as a synonym for "imbuing with magical energies to make a magical item". I blame the entire English language for the mix-up.

Blackfang108
2009-08-04, 02:04 PM
RAW, it seems to work. I don't like it, but it seems to work.

PS: I meant "enchanting" as a synonym for "imbuing with magical energies to make a magical item". I blame the entire English language for the mix-up.

I blame the language for a lot, but you enchant armor in order to enhance it.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 02:08 PM
if you go monk, just grab superior unarmed strike, a monk's belt Better stop right there. Both the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike have an implied reference to the character's actual Monk levels, so these overlap rather than stack:
The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. Five levels higher than what? The Monk levels without putting on the Belt, of course.

If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher. Four levels higher than what? The Monk levels without the feat, of course.
Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other. You get only the better benefit: the +5 from the Belt.

Indon
2009-08-04, 02:11 PM
Go Monk//Druid (You'll need to be LN), and you can be an awesome kung-fu animal and if you get tired of that, you're still a Druid.

Krazddndfreek
2009-08-04, 02:14 PM
If you're thinking of munchkin-sizing at all, This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Optimized_Character_Builds) is the way to go.

Should be some monk builds in there. I saw a couple.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 02:17 PM
I blame the language for a lot, but you enchant armor in order to enhance it.
Not in D&D, where you abjure armor to enhance it. Which is actually more amusing.
ab⋅jure
–verb (used with object)

1. to renounce, repudiate, or retract, esp. with formal solemnity; recant: to abjure one's errors.
2. to renounce or give up under oath; forswear: to abjure allegiance.
3. to avoid or shun.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 02:20 PM
Yes, you do use the School of Abjuration to make armor that protects better than nonmagical armor. I thought that "enchant" clearly expressed my meaning, which I take to be the goal of language. Nevertheless, I stand by my blaming of the English language.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 02:23 PM
You kids these days and your English language... when I was your age, we didn't have a language! We had to think hard enough so that our thoughts were heard by the other party. Sure, it gave us headaches, but we liked it that way.

Blackfang108
2009-08-04, 02:44 PM
Not in D&D, where you abjure armor to enhance it. Which is actually more amusing.

Priceless. It kind of makes sense, though, as armor avoids damage...

That's probably the definition they thought of when they chose Abjuration as the name.

EDIT: Nevermind, reread and realized I was misinterperting.

Yeah, you'd only get the +5 from the belt.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-04, 03:10 PM
{Scrubbed}

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-04, 03:27 PM
{Scrubbed}

Or listen to the BG handbook, and multiclass out of Monk sometime before 7th level and never turn back.

Indon
2009-08-04, 03:45 PM
While we're at it, just play a Wizard and give it monk flavor.

Cieyrin
2009-08-04, 03:59 PM
There is a trick I've been wanting to try and this seems to be a good a time as any to mention it. In the Arms and Equipment Guide, there's a magic item called the Sparring Dummy of the Master, in which a monk (and only a monk) can train with it to then be allowed to make 10' steps, as opposed to 5'.

Why does this matter? Well, if one takes a look at Scout, to skirmish you need to move at least 10'. Hence, Monk//Scout with the Sparring Dummy can full attack with skirmish damage and AC. Now, would you necessarily want to go Monk//Scout the entire way? probably not, not when you can Swift Hunter it up for full BAB and also pick up Ascentic Hunter while you're at it for more stacking craziness.

Just a small thought that may actually be interesting and awesome. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 04:02 PM
There is a trick I've been wanting to try and this seems to be a good a time as any to mention it. In the Arms and Equipment Guide, there's a magic item called the Sparring Dummy of the Master, in which a monk (and only a monk) can train with it to then be allowed to make 10' steps, as opposed to 5'.

Why does this matter? Well, if one takes a look at Scout, to skirmish you need to move at least 10'. Hence, Monk//Scout with the Sparring Dummy can full attack with skirmish damage and AC. Now, would you necessarily want to go Monk//Scout the entire way? probably not, not when you can Swift Hunter it up for full BAB and also pick up Ascentic Hunter while you're at it for more stacking craziness.

Just a small thought that may actually be interesting and awesome. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Monk/Scout/Swordsage with press the advantage stance can take 2 ft steps. With the sparring dummy, thats 2 10ft steps. 20ft move rate isnt bad, when you get to take a full skirmish flurry at the end.

9mm
2009-08-04, 04:02 PM
Better stop right there. Both the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike have an implied reference to the character's actual Monk levels, so these overlap rather than stack:.

well obviously I read it different, and in my group, implied don't cut it, both add an untyped bonus to effective monk level for determining unarmed damage. This is a talk with the gm moment. Not everyone follows faq; so ymmv.

and honestly, SUA isn't that important in the long run.

lord_khaine
2009-08-04, 04:05 PM
well, it would help a lot if you could give some more information about how you determine stats, how much control you get over your gear, and most important of all, how high a level you will end up with.

one thing i would recomend for lower level play, is to invest a lot in both potions of mage armor, and potions of enlarge, for 50 per bottle you can easely afford running around with a barrels worth of both.

for a build, may i recomend making either a Monk//wizard or a Monk// Sorcerer, where you take the feats that let you use Int or Char for ac instead of Wis, and pick the prestice class Enlightend Fist as soon as you can qualify for it.

As for weapon, if you invest in Simple weapon proficiency you can use a enchantet Gauntlet as a weapon.
if you get to level 6 as a monk, take the feat improved trip, and get a spiked chain, dont worry to much about having proficiency in it, since you will mostly be using it for touch attacks and tripping anyway.

toddex
2009-08-04, 04:06 PM
Intuitive attack (Use wisdom instead of strength for attach bonus)
helps a lot too.
And monk seems just built for VOP, especially when it comes to the numerous bonus feats like touch of golden ice (poisoned touch attack), etc

Of course if you VOP, you can't get items like monk's belt which is handy.

Another route which helps is dual class with rogue (with Acetic Rogue feat) and pick up sneak attack since the monk is built well for stealth already. (think rogue with better AC and never needs to draw a weapon) Coupled with stunning attack and Invisible Fist it can be devistating:

I'm hidden, I get a surprise round and attack with 5 attacks, doing 5d20+50d6 damage. Next round I beat init and, whiile your flat footed do another 5 attacks at 5d20+50d6 damage. then I go invisible and take a 5' step back. the next round, I'm still invisible and I take my full round of attack (5 attacks) with a sneak attack each. I've just done another 5d20+50d6 damage. One of the attacks stun you. You can't hit me because your stunned. I become visible. Next round, my first attack stuns you again and again I sneak full round attack for another 5d20+40d6.
There 4 rounds without being hit. How much damage was done?

look to building towards spring attack, with the monks high speed, you can move 30 feet, attack and move 30 feet away to avoid the counter attack.

Yet another route is the sumo wrestler approach. Constantly trip you oppenents, allowing a AoO when the get up. Use your AoO to trip them again. this route includes bull rushing, and grapple (make sure you understand the rules well.

What book is intuitive attack from? This would help me a lot with my Cleric monk/ sacred fist character.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 04:13 PM
What book is intuitive attack from? This would help me a lot with my Cleric monk/ sacred fist character.

Book of exalted deeds

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-04, 05:17 PM
While you're at it, pick up one level of Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures to get your Wisdom modifier as an additional untyped bonus to all of your attack and damage rolls. Get at least one level in Swordsage or take Martial Study/Stance and take Shadow Blade to also add your Dex modifier to your damage. That gets Wisdom twice to hit with Intuitive Attack, and Strength, Dex, and Wisdom to damage. Monks are already MAD for those stats, so you may as well add them all to your damage. You could even afford to dump Str down to 10 (or 13 if you want power attack) to make your other stats higher.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-04, 06:35 PM
Monk/Scout/Swordsage with press the advantage stance can take 2 ft steps. With the sparring dummy, thats 2 10ft steps. 20ft move rate isnt bad, when you get to take a full skirmish flurry at the end. Still, that's inferior to taking 1 level of (Cloistered) Cleric instead of Swordsage to get the Travel domain and then swap that for the Travel Devotion feat. You get 1 minute of swift action moves at your speed, with 1 minute more for every 2 turn undead attempts (3 total minutes daily with CHA 12). And you can take the Celerity domain to boost that base speed by 10', and of course Expeditious Retreat adds a 30' enhancement to that, so you can move 70' as a swift action each round (for 10 straight rounds) and do a full flurry skirmish attack.

I like 70' movement a round with full attack better than 20'. How about you?

Sir Giacomo
2009-08-05, 04:27 PM
Hi,:smallsmile:

- to the OP: the sig for "beating batman" provides for a straight core monk build some ideas for feats, tactics and items.

- "play a swordsage" depends on a DM working out a new class for you, since the ToB just leaves you with one sentence and many questions and disadvantage when playing an unarmed swordsage.
Better cherry-pick the ToB maneuvers you need either through feats, multi-classing or items.

- intuitive attack is from Book of Exalted Deeds. It is great for a completely WIS-focused monk, since size-stacking and high monk base damage mean you hardly need other damage boosters from STR.
For an example, have look at my old man build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18520878&postcount=242) over at the WoTC forums.

- for gestalt, and power-heavy-combat game, I'd suggest getting as many size increases as possible. Some (almost absurd) ideas are here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-987182.html)
Combine druid/monk (there is even a druid spell compendium spell to up your WIS by up to +10, great also for maxing stunning fist). Or cleric/monk of trickery domain (for divine power, rightous might and polymorph any object). Also get pounce forms this way.

- you can make great use of a spiked chain or other reach weapon (spiked chain the best though) for trip builds even without being proficient, since tripping requires only a touch attack and the -4 non-proficiency penalty hardly matters at higher levels.

- max the stealth skill set (hide, move silently, spot, listen). You'll be able to catch the surprise round vs most enemies or avoid being surprised.

- superior unarmed strike and monk's belt do not stack, as per FAQ (and RAW).


Giacomo knows as much about Monks as I do about Artificers (hint: Next to nothing, as I hate doing that much number-crunching for a single build). Dman's Monk Handbook is vastly superior. In a straight-up battle between one of Dman's Monks and Giacomo's Joker Monk, Dman's would win every day of the week.

I dunno about your Artificer maxing fu, but in this case it hardly matters -Dman's monks are non-core, while the Joker monk is core only (without multi-classing). So it makes no sense to compare them :smallwink:

- Giacomo

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 04:46 PM
VoP Monk is a trap, yes. How much help do you really want?

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 04:49 PM
If you're thinking of munchkin-sizing at all, This (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Optimized_Character_Builds) is the way to go.

Should be some monk builds in there. I saw a couple.

Wrong on (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636) all counts. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-883674)

I cordially suggest you learn more about what it means to "munchkin-size" something. :)

Dr_Emperor
2009-08-05, 05:19 PM
As for bounderies requested. Mostly forgetten relms type stuff. No greyhawk, eberron, ravenloft, yada yada yada. Its not a forgoten realms setting, but it is in that spirit. No psionics or TOB of any type. He's not interested in it. No real restrictions otherwise. So long its been published by Wizards of the Coast, and he or we can show him so, its pretty much fair game.

Snip

He's a human fighter/monk level 2. Currently, i know he has the improved initiative feat, but not sure what else.

Snip



It might be better to know his full base especially what feats he took to be helpful. I kinda don't like the classes he has right now cause they are both things people normally prestige class out of.
The three good monk prestige classes that I can think of still allowed without tomb of battle are:
Shou disciple: unaproachable east pg 34 enhances flurry
Disciple of the Word: tome of magic pg 216 uses stunning fist attempts too have a truespeak check replace other stuff, actually good truenaming stuff
Dragon Descendent: Dragon magic pg 34 bind ancient dragon spirits for big bonuses (does this class remind anyone else of binders?)

Also Incarnate and totemist, magic of incarnum, go with anything. If your friend won't use ToB or psionics they probably won't use this though, but if they do shape soulmeld mauling gauntlets is a great feat for upping unarmed attack damage.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-05, 05:47 PM
- to the OP: the sig for "beating batman" provides for a straight core monk build some ideas for feats, tactics and items.

Items that you won't find in any shops, I note.

Faleldir
2009-08-05, 06:24 PM
If your DM allows Crystal Keep, you could play a Chaos Monk// City Brawler Barbarian. If you take Whirling Frenzy and Snap Kick, you'll end up with 10 to 15 (it's random) attacks!

Sir Giacomo
2009-08-06, 04:46 PM
Items that you won't find in any shops, I note.

No, you find them in treasure and in towns for sale as per DMG in the default campaign. Whether that is a shop or an old wizard or a rich noble family or a thieve's guild with stolen goods is up to the DM. :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-06, 05:36 PM
And the treasure just happens to have a 20 charge wand of Divine Power which is just what your character wanted...