Why does it feel like all the classes hate each other

[Gamerlord]

Worst of all wizards, they seem to even insult other casters if they use divine magic, but paladins as well seem to hate everyone else, was there once some big arcane vs. divine vs. might war or what? :smallconfused:

But sorcerers appear to be the most discriminated against, does it have to do with their draconian heritage (I myself support that theory) ?

[Random832]

Worst of all wizards, they seem to even insult other casters if they use divine magic, but paladins as well seem to hate everyone else, was there once some big arcane vs. divine vs. might war or what? :smallconfused:

Where have we seen class-hate from paladins? The two paladins we've seen the most of are both multiclassed.

As for Wizards, the usual explanation is that Wizards feel that Sorcerers and divine magic users didn't "earn" their magic.

[pflare]

As for Wizards, the usual explanation is that Wizards feel that Sorcerers and divine magic users didn't "earn" their magic.

Exactly. That's actually a main point in SoD. Other than that I don't really see class discrimination although Haley calls it here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html
but then again she was bluffing.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Didn't V say something like "divine magic is not even real magic anyway"?

Which is quite ironic knowing that in D&D 3.5, they are practically the same (different source, same substance).

The complaint against sorcerers at least makes some sense from their point of view. Wizards in my games act exactly the same way.

[Scarlet Knight]

:smallsigh: "There ya' go, bringing class into it!"
:smallfrown: "Well, that's what it's all about, if only you'd listen..."

Also the debate of fighters vs rogues:

:haley: "Every archer needs a meat-shield"
:belkar: "It's like I'm an experienced warrior and you two are glorified pick-pockets!"

[Starscream]

I don't recall many instances of people hating on other classes. Belkar had some nasty things to say about monks, but he is a multiclass character himself.

[Morquard]

Which is quite ironic knowing that in D&D 3.5, they are practically the same (different source, same substance).

Well, Wizards wield the magic themselves, they "tell the laws of physic to shut up and sit down".
While clerics just ask their god to please be nice and do it for them.

From a wizards view it makes sense to call it "not real magic".

As for sorcerers. I think its often jealousy as well. They had to study for their knowledge, while it all falls into the lap of a sorcerer

[MReav]

Well, Wizards wield the magic themselves, they "tell the laws of physic to shut up and sit down".
While clerics just ask their god to please be nice and do it for them.

From a wizards view it makes sense to call it "not real magic".

As for sorcerers. I think its often jealousy as well. They had to study for their knowledge, while it all falls into the lap of a sorcerer

And the Sorcerer I'm sure thinks about how much they practice to get good and hate having the Wizard jam down their throats about how they didn't earn their magic when they worked hard manipulating every spell save for their first few.

[Morquard]

I once told that analogy:
a) One guy started learning to ride a bike when he as 3 years old, driving with training wheels for years, constantly improving himself, till 20 years later he can participate in a race
b) Another guy has never touched a bike ever. One day he picks one up, and can do it. He's even good enough to drive in the same race and keep up to a).

Would anyone say a) is the better or more talented biker?

Better maybe. More talented? I don't know.

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm not sure I would take V's semi-coherent ranting from his/her 'evil' phase to be an indication of worldwide discrimination. I would also have to ask where you found instances of paladins hating every other class - I can't find a single example of a paladin doing anything like that, and like someone already pointed out, the two paladins with the most "screen time" are multiclassed Monk/Paladin and Fighter/Paladin.

As for the rest of the comic, most of the "Ha ha, my class is better than yours" is for the sake of a DnD in-joke, such as Leafy's comment about how there are druid special abilites that are more powerful than the entire rogue class (because druid is unbalanced and overpowered) and Tsukiko's crack to Haley about having more spells than Haley has hit points (which is doubly funny, because while a mystic theurge does have a lot of spells per day, it's still a terrible prestige class).

The original one was when Nale made his snide remark about bards being underpowered (they are - still fun to play, though), and then listed a multiclass rundown that makes Nale as close to a bard as you can get without actually taking levels in bard.

So if it seems like all the classes hate each other, it's probably just a bit of exposition coupled with a joke for the DnD crowd.

[Optimystik]

I think it depends on the individual. For example, among paladins only Soon has really been derisive of other classes. "Your magic can be dispelled or disrupted; only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable." Meanwhile, we have paladins like O-Chul and even Miko that incorporate arcane magic seamlessly into their strategies, or Lien and Hinjo being grateful for clerical magic.

Wizards tend to be dismissive to other classes because they acquire their magic so much more painstakingly than spontaneous and divine casters do. I think if V ran into an Archivist he might be a bit more respectful, just as he was when Roy demonstrated his magical knowledge.

[RecklessFable]

Friendly, rivalry. If they didn't have class differences to pick on, they'd use weapon choices, race, god, whatever. It is the most obvious difference in how each character operates and therefore most open to ridicule.

Grumpy Dwarf!
Sneaky Halfling!
Lawful Stupid!
Evil Undead Guy!

[DBear]

Yeah, this is more like the "rivalry" between the various military branches. Army/Navy game, anyone?:smallsmile:

[Scarlet Knight]

The Greenhilt's have familial issues, and it is easy for Horace/Eugene/Roy/Julia to disparage each other's class rather than admit you simply want to reject your elders choice because it's your elder's choice" .

[Optimystik]

The Greenhilt's have familial issues, and it is easy for Horace/Eugene/Roy/Julia to disparage each other's class rather than admit you simply want to reject your elders choice because it's your elder's choice" .

Well, in Roy's case he has nothing against wizards in general, just his father; Origin proved that. Sadly, Julia gets some of the backlash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) reserved for Eugene, which the strip's title lampshades quite neatly. Julia and Eugene are the ones that genuinely look down on other classes, which is fitting since they are both wizards.

Interestingly, Julia doesn't seem to share V's anti-divine magic prejudice. (At least, if she does, she conveniently forgot it during her argument with Roy.)

[Raging Gene Ray]

The whole purpose of Soon's oath was the fact that each member of the Order of the Scribble wanted it to be their class features and nobody else's to protect the gates.

Why do they do this? The same reason a lot of people want to play D&D, they want the glory of being the ones who strike the final blow or whatever the situation calls for. Why they couldn't just get over themselves and say "fine, you can help me" is beyond me.

[Querzis]

Why they couldn't just get over themselves and say "fine, you can help me" is beyond me.

Kraagor death certainly seemed to be the main reason with everyone blaming the others for it. The argument between the Order of the Scribble really wasnt about class, they just used class to insult the others.

[Herald Alberich]

I'm not sure I would take V's semi-coherent ranting from his/her 'evil' phase to be an indication of worldwide discrimination.

Indeed, and considering that all of his power at that point was handed to him by fiends, it'd be very hypocritical (but entirely in character) to disparage divine magic because you don't have to work for it.

Back when V wasn't quite so inclined to look down on his fellow party members, he was actually wistfully jealous (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html) of Durkon's ability to gain spells just by asking.

[rewinn]

Friendly, rivalry. If they didn't have class differences to pick on, they'd use weapon choices, race, god, whatever.

Imagine the inhabitants of the Stickverse on some sort of internet messageboard. They'd argue endlessly over the smallest differences of opinion, not because they really matter, but for the fun of it.

[veti]

Imagine the inhabitants of the Stickverse on some sort of internet messageboard. They'd argue endlessly over the smallest differences of opinion, not because they really matter, but for the fun of it.

Yeah, can you imagine it? Those morons.

Not "smallest" differences of opinion, though. The smallest differences, like whether red onion is ruined by cooking, would be undetectable here. Differences like "is Haley's hair red, auburn, ginger or copper?" - those are important.

[Ancalagon]

I think it also makes fun about the old "my character with his class can beat your character, because your class is less powerful than mine" issue from some players. ;)

[Erts]

I can see why wizards would feel jelaous of sorcerer's, but still, it is very over done and cliched in D&D. Sorcerer's still need to practice their natural skills to be good, they just don't have to study for long periods of time like wizards.

The thing that V doesn't realize is that clerics and druids do work. A lot. They are so devoted to their cause that they are able to ask it to help them. Clerics and druids often spend as much time studying, training, and overall working as their wizard counterparts.

[Optimystik]

I think it also makes fun about the old "my character with his class can beat your character, because your class is less powerful than mine" issue from some players. ;)

It's not like the characters themselves don't agree with that stance. Belkar spends an entire page emasculating a monk in Origin, and Pompey complains about the weakness of half-elves compared to humans in #255. They are conscious of the imbalance in the gameworld that they live in.

[dps]

Belkar spends an entire page emasculating a monk in Origin

Metaphorically, or literally? With Belkar, I could see either (or both) being the case.

[Corwin Weber]

Metaphorically, or literally? With Belkar, I could see either (or both) being the case.

One.... then the other......

...hell, for that matter, he'd probably start metaphorically, move on to literally.... and then back to verbally afterward.

:)

[Optimystik]

Metaphorically, or literally? With Belkar, I could see either (or both) being the case.

The monk leaves with his... class features... intact, if that's what you're asking. His pride, however, had suffered a confirmed Devastating Critical and failed its fortitude save.

[Ancalagon]

It's not like the characters themselves don't agree with that stance. Belkar spends an entire page emasculating a monk in Origin, and Pompey complains about the weakness of half-elves compared to humans in #255. They are conscious of the imbalance in the gameworld that they live in.

In the behaviour I mentioned: Where's the difference between the player and the character in those cases? Those who do that as players usually make no difference between these two, so, for this matter is player = character.
In the world of oots, where not only the players but also the characters are aware of that is only one difference: Here can the characters do it without having a player who breaches character and behaves like a jerk. In the example of a player doing it... no one said the character has to disagree.
A wizard might well be able to agree he's superior to anything, as is a cleric etc, only because some players are idiots (it's the motive that makes them that) does not mean that the characters cannot have that ingame-opinion as valid view on the world - and it's not even unlikely that some guy thinks his chosen profession is better than other chosen professions (RL people often do that about their jobs as well).

[Gamerlord]

Where have we seen class-hate from paladins? The two paladins we've seen the most of are both multiclassed.


Soon believed the power of the paladin was unbreakable.

[Random832]

Soon believed the power of the paladin was unbreakable.

That's from one guy - not nearly as widespread as the attitude of wizards toward sorcerers that we've seen (which is, IIRC, indirectly responsible in multiple ways for Xykon)

[Haven]

That's from one guy - not nearly as widespread as the attitude of wizards toward sorcerers that we've seen (which is, IIRC, indirectly responsible in multiple ways for Xykon)

IMO, it was more like: a few guys he was probably going to kill anyway (Xavion, Firian, and Dorukan--hey, I sense a pattern) mentioned it right before he killed them anyway.

[Random832]

IMO, it was more like: a few guys he was probably going to kill anyway (Xavion, Firian, and Dorukan--hey, I sense a pattern) mentioned it right before he killed them anyway.

Right, and it also meant they didn't prepare nearly as well as they should have for the battle. I haven't read SOD, but someone mentioned something about no negative energy protection?

[pendell]

Worst of all wizards, they seem to even insult other casters if they use divine magic, but paladins as well seem to hate everyone else, was there once some big arcane vs. divine vs. might war or what? :smallconfused:

But sorcerers appear to be the most discriminated against, does it have to do with their draconian heritage (I myself support that theory) ?

Same thing as school rivalry, me thinks.

Way I see it, there are three possible dynamics in play:

1) "I'm better than you." Good old school playground rivalry, where everyone tries to one-up everyone else.

2) If a character really believed, say, that wizards rocked hard over everything else ... than why isn't he a wizard?

Presumably people become fighters because they really believe in the merits of the class, and they feel obliged to defend that choice to people (arrogant wizards, say) who can't see the advantages.

3) People have a tendency to belittle gifts and talents they don't have. 'Sour grapes' phenomenon. I can't have the grapes -- oh, they're sour. I didn't want them anyway.

It's a problem for some people to admit that someone else has a talent they don't have. If your sister, say, could call up storms by waving her hands and you couldn't -- well, sometimes it seems the choice is to eat your heart out with envy or pretend it's not that big a deal. If you tell yourself that often enough, you might even come to believe it.

After all, just because sis has gifts and talents you don't is no reason for her to think she's *better* than you, is it? We'll soon fix that, heh heh.

It's not a path of maturity, no. But then again, how many people are that mature?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Foryn Gilnith]

2) If a character really believed, say, that wizards rocked hard over everything else ... than why isn't he a wizard?

Presumably people become fighters because they really believe in the merits of the class, and they feel obliged to defend that choice to people (arrogant wizards, say) who can't see the advantages.


One of my wizards wanted really hard to be a cleric but simply didn't have the wisdom (also, his god never existed. Cults are weird that way). Eventually, he become an archivist mystic theurge

[Armitage]

Right, and it also meant they didn't prepare nearly as well as they should have for the battle.
Well, Firian at least wasn't expecting a battle.

[Rotipher]

People have a tendency to belittle gifts and talents they don't have. 'Sour grapes' phenomenon. I can't have the grapes -- oh, they're sour. I didn't want them anyway.

Too true. And it's especially applicable, if you consider that sorcerers are also likely to have an edge in Charisma over wizards. Socially agile and naturally talented? That's a potent combination for any bookworm to envy, as any high-school nerd who's been jealous of the popular-crowd jocks can testify.

[Bibliomancer]

Too true. And it's especially applicable, if you consider that sorcerers are also likely to have an edge in Charisma over wizards. Socially agile and naturally talented? That's a potent combination for any bookworm to envy, as any high-school nerd who's been jealous of the popular-crowd jocks can testify.

However, most nerds don't have a spellbook and the ability to prepare for any situation if they use contact other plane regularly enough. An especially potent combination is using heroic metamagic (action points from Eberron) to cast 5 delayed spells right before someone kicks down your door. That's better than a time stop (for a lot of action points).

[TMC]

However, most nerds don't have a spellbook and the ability to prepare for any situation if they use contact other plane regularly enough. An especially potent combination is using heroic metamagic (action points from Eberron) to cast 5 delayed spells right before someone kicks down your door. That's better than a time stop (for a lot of action points).

Yep, but most sexy, rich, exotic socialites that nerds are jealous of don't also have an inborn talent at wielding the same spells that the nerds study so hard for, and are able to do it LONGER, and with a greater variety at their fingertips in general, due to having their ENTIRE spell library at their disposal, rather then their prepared library. So that wizard is proabably casting spells into a target that's likely not going to be directly infront of the door, but rather a few steps back and to the side, blowing it up from a save position.

(Yes, I know Wizards are better then Sorcs in general, but I just love Sorcs so much. They're such an interesting class to me.)