When did we stop enjoying OotS?

[Hitorijun]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

We now go over every word writen and every line drawn in the comic and try to make something out of it. Take for instance the phone call from the boss, Rich pulls random #s out of the air and we try to make something out of them. Is it foreshadowing? What could the #s mean? What do the represent? We already know they were random and mean nothing, but it goes to show that some of us have lost our love of the comic as a comic and try to disect it to mean something.

Does everything placed in the comic have to lead to something else or can it really there for the fact that its funny? Could something Rich wrote as a funny side note really be a foreshadowing for a strip a year and a half later or is it really just a funny side note that was just a strange coincidence?

Either way I think we should ease up on the knit picking and enjoy a hilarious comic. :) We can all still enjoy the possible theories and predictions and fun banter and possibilities, but I feel that somewhere some of the fun was lost and replaced with too much seriousness. We could all ease up and allow Rich enjoy himself again. :)

[Kish]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

Two weeks before the first strip was posted.

I'm joking about the "before the comic actually started getting posted," of course. However. I started reading the comic sometime in the 70s. I started reading the board regularly around #100. At that point people already dissected every strip. I share your general incomprehension of the appeal of this, but it's very far from a new phenomenon, and I don't think it's going away.


We could all ease up and allow Rich enjoy himself again. :)
I think his stopping nearly all participation in the board did that. :smalltongue:

[NerfTW]

First, people have always dissected the strip. You're on the message board for the strip. If people didn't want to dissect it, they wouldn't be posting on this message board. So you're seeing a disproportionate amount of people who like reading into things simply because the ones who don't, don't post.

Second, there are a LOT of posters. Still only something like 10 percent of the total readers I think was said, but still a lot of posters. There are a few prolific posters, but quite a few new ones all the time. What seems like "everyone" spending time dissecting the strip is actually only a few, plus a rotating cast of people who come in and participate in maybe one or two discussions a month.


And why can't we both dissect it and enjoy it?

[Zanaril]

People will dissect anything and everything, the most common reason being because they find it entertaining.

[Optimystik]

If you don't like analyzing the strips, then why are you on this forum in the first place? That's kind of what it's for.

Remove the "dissection" threads, and all you have left is "there's a typo in #578" and "Who's your favorite character?"

[charl]

If you don't like analyzing the strips, then why are you on the forums in the first place? That's kind of what they're for.

Remove the "dissection" threads, and all you have left is "there's a typo in #578" and "Who's your favorite character?"

To be fair that's only one of the many fora on the site. There's also general discussion, RPG discussion, DnD rules discussion, art discussion etc etc that has nothing to do with dissecting OOTS or really OOTS at all.

EDIT: Speedy math, since all post counts* are available on the main fora page: Let's estimate that 2/3 of all posts in the OOTS forum has is about analysing strips in different ways (and that's probably an overestimate) that means there's 249 458 posts devoted to it. Of the total number of posts (4 404 775) that is only about 5.7% of the total amount of posts on all the fora.

In other words, not a lot.

*The post counts will of course change as this very post is being written, but such is the way of the Internets.

[Optimystik]

To be fair that's only one of the many fora on the site. There's also general discussion, RPG discussion, DnD rules discussion, art discussion etc etc that has nothing to do with dissecting OOTS or really OOTS at all.

Fair enough: this particular forum then.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Rich pulls random #s out of the air and we try to make something out of them. Is it foreshadowing? What could the #s mean? What do the represent?

That's only a small fraction of forumgoers, who themselves are a small fraction of the readers.

Myself, I joined the forum because I got bored waiting for the next strip to show up. I'm pretty sure most of the people who are dissecting are just killing time until the next comic, which will itself bring lots of new nits to pick.

[NerfTW]

Or, we're just so interested in the story that we want to speculate on what's going to happen next.

I really don't see how that's hurting Rich to have such a great comic that his fans can't wait to see what happens. It could be worse. He could be Scott Kurtz.

[Scarlet Knight]

Dissection is directly proportional to popularity. Hence, the occurance of nitpicking is directly related to the increase in readership, especially those who have not already argued a point to death...still, a forum can be interesting with discussion that doesn't evolve into dissection.

[Mauve Shirt]

If speculation and dissection didn't happen we'd have nothing but "Yay Rich! Great comic!" threads.

[Optimystik]

It could be worse. He could be Scott Kurtz.

Or Scott Ramsoomair. :smallfrown:
Or Tim Buckley! :smallyuk:


still, a forum can be interesting with discussion that doesn't evolve into dissection.

And it can be interesting when it does, too.

[Ancalagon]

Or Tim Buckley! :smallyuk:

Do not mention the war... err... do not mention that crappy writer on this board, please. He made me feel dumb for even going on reading that comic, luckily, the latest arc cured me of that.

I think the comic here started to get discussed and dissect so much as it became clear it is sooo much detail and thought in it. Some people just go too far, you know... common sense should put a stop to the most stupid things, but common sense is something that often cannot be found whereever it should be found.

I also think that the current pace of the comic lets us look into more and more details: What is there gets discussed, new things tend to overlap old things. With "one new comic per week" it is no surprise every straw (possible or impossible) gets examined, searched, turned around etc.

[Turkish Delight]

The way I see it, we've got a forum here. We can do two things with it:

1) Say, 'Hey, great comic!' or a variation thereof. After which the forum dies for the next few days/weeks/however long it takes for another comic to be posted because there's nothing more to be said, really.

When the next comic is posted:

'Hey, great comic!'

2) Nitpick and scour and bicker over every panel, text bubble, character and plot twist like frenzied religious scholars trying to decipher hidden codes from the holy text. In this way, you can indulge your interest in the comic while coping with the reality that updates nowadays are getting kind of infrequent.

So, for the sake of keeping the forum alive and interesting, we do the latter.

[Beren]

Personally, I rather enjoy reading people's analysis on the comic. Most of the time, I don't have much to add of my own, but I still like seeing everyone else's. There are so many details in the comic that I don't notice until someone brings it up and points out the possible significance of it, and for that reason, it greatly enhances my enjoyment of it. Do some people go overboard and overanalyze it? Sure, but you know what? It's beyond my control, and I don't worry about it.

[Dark Faun]

You may want to change the title to "When did we start dissecting OotS?", Hitorijun. The current title is misleading, though it will attract readers. :smallwink:

Like Beren, I enjoy reading people's analysis of the strips. My current favorite thread is "How you can tell that this party is pro." :smalltongue:

[[TS] Shadow]

Wait, we stopped enjoying it? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I had a hard time adjusting from reading all of the strips in the archive (513 of them, too) to having to wait for the strip to be posted like everyone else.

[Armitage]

If you don't like analyzing the strips, then why are you on this forum in the first place? That's kind of what it's for.
There is a difference between talking about the strips, discussing what may happen next etc. and dissection it, taking every word, every gesture and trying to analyze the deeper meaing.

One may want to do the first without doing the other, and that's just as valid.

But to me it seems (and yes, I'm only reading the forums regularily for a few days) that any discussion is sooner or later taken over by the "dissectors". Which for me takes a lot of the fun out of it.

[Godric]

I don't think it's caused by the rare updates, few and far between though they are. I've noticed that sometimes, the dissection peters out before the new strip arrives. I'm sure the time between updates does encourage people to go into more detail than they would if oots was on a mon-weds-fri schedule, though.

[Optimystik]

There is a difference between talking about the strips, discussing what may happen next etc. and dissection it, taking every word, every gesture and trying to analyze the deeper meaing.

One may want to do the first without doing the other, and that's just as valid.

But to me it seems (and yes, I'm only reading the forums regularily for a few days) that any discussion is sooner or later taken over by the "dissectors". Which for me takes a lot of the fun out of it.

I do agree that some people take it too far (A certain thread that devolved into the merits of taxation comes to mind, as well as every single thread that ends up mentioning Hitler), but I don't let those bad apples spoil the forum for me, and neither should you.


I don't think it's caused by the rare updates, few and far between though they are. I've noticed that sometimes, the dissection peters out before the new strip arrives. I'm sure the time between updates does encourage people to go into more detail than they would if oots was on a mon-weds-fri schedule, though.

Agreed. I think fast updates actually cause MORE discussion, because the new information lends fuel to ongoing discussions and people are more eager to point out references to earlier strips. For example, The Giant was updating pretty quickly during the thieves' guild-Haley assassination attempt thing, and even with the forums being on the old servers (and thus inaccessible half the time), new threads were cropping up like weeds and people were spamming F5 to get their 2 cents in.

[Jaltum]

I agree with Armitage entirely; I like discussion, quite a bit, actually, but when it hits three posts in a row thirteen frigging screens of line by line quote and response... I give up on a thread.

If you went to a movie with a group of your friends and on the ride home, two of them got into an argument about a single scene, and they wouldn't let it go when it was clear they couldn't agree--and they talked noisily over anyone who tried to change the subject--and they did this every time you went to the movies--

You'd stop inviting those guys. That's part of why I've been a member here for three years and only participate for bursts of about two months at a time, four or five months apart. I get burned out.

(The other half being that there's a widespread culture of reading the first post and then jumping in and commenting without reading the rest of the thread that drives me batty... but I imagine the thirty page threads of back and forth help discourage trying to catch up before you comment, also.)

[Jackson]

As has already been mentioned, the discussion most likely became more intense when it became apparent just how much planning had been put into the strip. If seemingly off-hand remarks or single-panel appearances never turned out to be important bits of shadowing dozens or hundreds of strips later, then it would be hard to imagine that posts about the possible implications of this or that seemingly off-hand remark would persist. But since it's clear that a lot of planning and attention to detail has gone into the strip, some enjoy putting the same type of effort in, trying to deduce the plan and pay as much attention to detail as a reader as the author seems to have done.

Does it get ridiculous and out-of-hand at times? Well, yes. But this is the internet. People are bored.

[Shatteredtower]

I agree with Armitage entirely; I like discussion, quite a bit, actually, but when it hits three posts in a row thirteen frigging screens of line by line quote and response... I give up on a thread.

Which is as it should be. No one's being forced to read other posts. That doesn't seem to stop some posters from acting as though they were, rather than taking responsibility for what they read.


I started reading the comic sometime in the 70s.

Lucky you. I had to wait until the 21st Century.

[Murdim]

There is a difference between talking about the strips, discussing what may happen next etc. and dissection it, taking every word, every gesture and trying to analyze the deeper meaing.

One may want to do the first without doing the other, and that's just as valid.

But to me it seems (and yes, I'm only reading the forums regularily for a few days) that any discussion is sooner or later taken over by the "dissectors". Which for me takes a lot of the fun out of it.There's another fundamental characteristic among dissectors : they never try to imagine what could happen, they just say what should happen, and argue about it endlessy when people begin to disagree with them. And that's exactly why every single one "Haley should rot in Hell" rant is inherently a bad thing.

[NerfTW]

If you went to a movie with a group of your friends and on the ride home, two of them got into an argument about a single scene, and they wouldn't let it go when it was clear they couldn't agree--and they talked noisily over anyone who tried to change the subject--and they did this every time you went to the movies--


That's a faulty comparison. This isn't anything like a car ride. Two people can keep shouting all they want without harming your ability to talk in another thread. In fact, if you feel two people are taking over the thread, IGNORE THEM and redirect it. This isn't like a verbal conversation where you can't talk over them. Your post is just as clear as theirs, and if it has merit, other people will pick up on it and simply talk between the other two.

[Foryn Gilnith]

When did I stop enjoying OotS? When threads like this started to be posted.

Stop whining. This post is likely to be harsh, which reflects my feeling. Stop whining about what we should be ("enjoying OotS" frivolously) and should not be (dissection) doing. Why should we listen? Why should we care? More than any nitpicking, any dissection, or any flames on this forum - threads like this that decry the status quo anger me. Stop nitpicking our actions and stop being so serious about the perceived problem on the board. Ease up and let us enjoy ourselves again.

[Timberboar]

knit picking

Nitpicking.

:roach: Sorry, too amusing to me to pass up.

[pflare]

I nitpick because I love. I can only speak for myself but I have always and continue to enjoy oots. My personal preference when it comes to threads is to avoid complaints; I prefer speculation and such and if a little mistake is made by the Giant I think its amusing but I always think its amusing when anyone makes little mistakes (like mixing up words etc...). When I nitpick (and I know I do) its because I love.

PS I totally love that this thread has started nitpicking at nitpicking.

[xyzzy]

If speculation and dissection didn't happen we'd have nothing but "Yay Rich! Great comic!" threads.

Not that this would strictly be a bad thing. More Giant appreciation threads are always a good thing.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Technically, there wouldn't be more, they'd just be easier to see because they wouldn't get pushed to the second page as soon.

Actually, there might be fewer, because then people'd see them easier, and use the old ones instead of making new ones.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

I think the nitpicking is an encouraging sign.

When I see threads turn into debate-club I think to myself, "These people are practicing their analytical skills and applying scrutiny to what they see."

Every moment spent doing this is a moment not spent on frivolous lawsuits, watching FOX news, or going to Michael Bay films.

[Optimystik]

I think the nitpicking is an encouraging sign.

When I see threads turn into debate-club I think to myself, "These people are practicing their analytical skills and applying scrutiny to what they see."

Every moment spent doing this is a moment not spent on frivolous lawsuits, watching FOX news, or going to Michael Bay films.

You have won the thread in my eyes.

[Teddy]

I think the nitpicking is an encouraging sign.

When I see threads turn into debate-club I think to myself, "These people are practicing their analytical skills and applying scrutiny to what they see."

Every moment spent doing this is a moment not spent on frivolous lawsuits, watching FOX news, or going to Michael Bay films.

Well, that is why I participate in some of the debates around this forum. And to practice my english skills, since that too is important to me.

[multilis]

The Day the Miko died...

We were singing, Bye Bye Miss Asurite Pie...

In those days we had better things to do than nitpick over every detail, instead we had Miko debates in 100 threads... ;-)

[AstralFire]

I like the discussion. The only thing I don't like is the assumption that a given character must be played 'optimally' than they are 'archetypically' or for the sake of the story, when both tend to show up with frequency (the more complicated the optimization gets, the more explanation it needs, the less likely it is to show up.)

[Thanatosia]

Well, as others have said, the Forums would be boring if we didn't. I enjoy OOTS plenty, and enjoyed it for a long long time before I started hitting these forums, but the forums and the nitpicking, debating, etc are just a way to extract a little extra enjoyment from the comic by other means - and enjoyment I would not have if the only thread was 'Great Strip!" and then wait for the next one.

[veti]

When did I stop enjoying OotS? When threads like this started to be posted.

Cura te ipsum. You don't like it, the "Next Thread" button is not far to reach.

In answer to the OP: In some cases, nitpicking just means that we're genuinely "involved" by the story and we feel real concern about what's going to happen. We love to discuss it with others who share that concern - and since my colleagues and neighbours don't fit that description, this board is where I go to find people who do.

Then there's the "community effect". Because we're all logging in with persistent identities, we recognise and identify each other, some people perceive a pecking order on the board. And some people then, naturally, yearn to rise up that pecking order, to become more respected and recognised posters. And they think - probably mistakenly, most of the time, but it's a natural mistake - that the way to achieve that is to post more often, getting "credit" for being the first to spot or think of something.

So there you have it. Two separate reasons why no detail is too trivial to pick over.

You're welcome.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Cura te ipsum. You don't like it, the "Next Thread" button is not far to reach.

It's not so much the content as the existence thereof. Once I've gotten to the point where the "next thread" button is in reach at all, I've already read enough that reading more won't cause more annoyance; and a venting reply is best formed with knowledge of the entire original complaint. At this point, the annoyance is fully vented, and I can read & post with impunity. :P



So there you have it. Two separate reasons why no detail is too trivial to pick over.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

[multilis]

...Every moment spent doing this is a moment not spent on frivolous lawsuits, watching FOX news, or going to Michael Bay films.
IMO drifting into political territory with mention of FOX news, US media currently triggers lots of debate about political bias, and the association with "frivolous lawsuits" sounded like political trash talk to me.

[Prowl]

Actually if OotS were a bill in the Senate, no one at all would have read it.

[73 Bits of Lint]

I majored in English, dissection and criticism is how I enjoy things. Okay, there may be one or two exceptions, but those are all either music or TV. If I've got to read the words for myself, then I'm going to spend some time meditating on them.

[Janmorel]

Actually if OotS were a bill in the Senate, no one at all would have read it.

And we wouldn't be getting a new strip until after the August recess.

[Hitorijun]

Well I'm glad nearly everyone missed my point or I wasn't clear enough.

Speculation and discussions are always good and enjoyed. Arguements and theories are always fun and frustrating.

The nitpicking was my problem. Enjoy the comic, theories, speculations and arguements.

[Optimystik]

Well I'm glad nearly everyone missed my point or I wasn't clear enough.

Generally, the former is due to the latter.

[Ancalagon]

The nitpicking was my problem.

I think the problem is your perception: What is nitpicking for one person might be a valid discussion for another.

Another problem might be you interpretation: You thought that the "nitpicking" was a sign people "stopped enjoying" the comic. Let's take a look at that. If people come here and fill post over post with "nitpicking", they invest their time, read stuff, reply to it... would you do that about something that you do not care about?
I think the reason why the forum here is filled with so much... crap (and not-crap as well!) is that people DO enjoy or do like it. If they would not, the forum would simply be deserted and Rich should try to get a "real" job...

[Mystic Muse]

The nitpicking was my problem.

if by nitpicking you mean grammar mistakes, art mistakes and the like Rich wants to be aware of those. that way he can correct them before the book is compiled and shipped out.

[rangermania]

#50 was my first page to read in 2005 and I only noticed there was an actual forum to this website at around #620 and even than I was only checking the first page of the "New Comic" thread to figure out how long it had been since the last comic strip.

So for me I never stopped enjoying OotS but now I'm also enjoying different ideas.

If you don't mind some disturbing repetitions you can enjoy these guys' speculations and responses too...

[Armitage]

Cura te ipsum. You don't like it, the "Next Thread" button is not far to reach.
There's just one little problem.. what if I like to participate in one thread that gets "high-jacked" by nitpickers and dissections?
I still want to discuss that topic, but having to wade through dozens of (usually quite long) replys until I find something that is on what I consider "normal" level is tiresome to the point of being impratical.
Starting a new thread with the same (or a similar) topic usually doesn't work, as sooner or later the nitpicking from the other thread will spill over.


"If you don't like it, go elsewhere" is an attitude that I have a problem with.
Because it shows a lack of understanding that dissenting opinions have a right to be exist and be expressed.

[Thanatosia]

"If you don't like it, go elsewhere" is an attitude that I have a problem with.
Because it shows a lack of understanding that dissenting opinions have a right to be exist and be expressed.
There seems to be a double standard if not outright contradiction in your stance to me.

[Armitage]

There seems to be a double standard if not outright contradiction in your stance to me.
*g* So it seems, right?

I said, that I have a problem with that attitude, I did in no way try to silence him.
But that's (in a way) what he is doing by saying that anybody, who doesn't like the way a discussion is heading, should leave.

See the difference?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Well I'm glad nearly everyone missed my point or I wasn't clear enough.

I saw your point. I just disagree fundamentally.

[Rosnet]

I stopped enjoying it when...

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

b) I realized this forum is controlled by "don't talk about the schedule" nazi-moderators/censors. This one really killed my love of the comic. Hey, I like it, I'll read it, but it's stuff like that that prevents me from _loving_ it. Yknow, the way I have D&D, Dragonlance collections and the like. It's this kind of attitude that prevents me from getting a collection of OOTS books to go with all them.

Cheers

[Yoyoyo]

I stopped enjoying it when...

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

b) I realized this forum is controlled by "don't talk about the schedule" nazi-moderators/censors. This one really killed my love of the comic. Hey, I like it, I'll read it, but it's stuff like that that prevents me from _loving_ it. Yknow, the way I have D&D, Dragonlance collections and the like. It's this kind of attitude that prevents me from getting a collection of OOTS books to go with all them.

Cheers

Considering all that the Giant has done to make my life more enjoyable (cause I still enjoy reading the comic and the forums), I will not begrudge him a life or time to make the comic the best it can be and inconsistent wait times are a small price to pay (especially when the comic is largely free). And attacking the moderators for policing a civil environment is unfair.

As for nitpicking, some people like to nitpick. Don't read those posts. Heck, taking a break from the forums is also a good idea when it starts to bring you down.

[NerfTW]

I stopped enjoying it when...

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

b) I realized this forum is controlled by "don't talk about the schedule" nazi-moderators/censors. This one really killed my love of the comic. Hey, I like it, I'll read it, but it's stuff like that that prevents me from _loving_ it. Yknow, the way I have D&D, Dragonlance collections and the like. It's this kind of attitude that prevents me from getting a collection of OOTS books to go with all them.

Cheers

As you'd see if you read the news posts back a few years, Rich is not in the best of health. He doesn't want to discuss it. Your attitude that you are somehow "owed" a "regular" update schedule is pretty presumptuous. It's been this way for years now, if you can't handle it, STOP READING. It's not going to change anytime soon.

[Optimystik]

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

"Unable" is the more accurate term. He has health problems that can interfere with his making the comic.

Also, you may want to invest in some asbestos...

[ericgrau]

if by nitpicking you mean grammar mistakes, art mistakes and the like Rich wants to be aware of those. that way he can correct them before the book is compiled and shipped out.

Actually taking threads like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120217), as an example, about half of the supposed comic errors are false. The Giant also stopped by in the unofficial comic error thread to say not to bother with material that's already been published, b/c anything that's ever gonna get fixed in those already has. Even the valid comic errors tend to be repeated a lot. It seems more like he accepts it as semi-useful and therefore won't complain excessively about all the useless stuff included.

I think everyone still enjoys the comic immensely whether they complain about some unimportant things, dissect it excessively, or not. As for the nitpicking and forum stuff in general, I mostly see it as a way to waste time. Wait, darn, what am I doing here? <zip out>

[Jackson]

b) I realized this forum is controlled by "don't talk about the schedule" nazi-moderators/censors. This one really killed my love of the comic. Hey, I like it, I'll read it, but it's stuff like that that prevents me from _loving_ it. Yknow, the way I have D&D, Dragonlance collections and the like. It's this kind of attitude that prevents me from getting a collection of OOTS books to go with all them.
Others have dealt with the first half of your post, but I'd like to add, in response to this part:

Seriously? Your problem with the strip is that the forums have a rule against speculating on the schedule because the author has a chronic illness that prevents him from updating regularly and would rather not discuss it constantly with strangers over the internet? There's a very good reason the schedule has slipped (there once was a regular updating schedule), and there's a good reason not to allow speculation/discussion about when a given strip will come out and why it's late: mostly because the question has already been answered, publicly, and doesn't need to be answered again.

Now, I also agree with everybody who says we're not owed a consistent schedule. If it takes him a while to do a strip of high quality, I'll never hold the extra time against Rich. Then again, I'm also not mad about the extending wait for A Dance with Dragons, either. Having worked in a creative field with stringent deadlines, I can say that, while there's something fun about the challenge (at least to me personally), it's not really the best way to get a quality product. And I'll take a quality product over consistently-update product every time.

[Liwen]

Cura te ipsum
Then there's the "community effect". Because we're all logging in with persistent identities, we recognise and identify each other, some people perceive a pecking order on the board. And some people then, naturally, yearn to rise up that pecking order, to become more respected and recognised posters. And they think - probably mistakenly, most of the time, but it's a natural mistake - that the way to achieve that is to post more often, getting "credit" for being the first to spot or think of something.


Hehe, that reminds me of the 2 weeks, a long way back ago, when I decided to make David Argall my forumite nemesis, mostly because I'm annoyed of how he often express himself like whatever he says is the word of god (the absolute, universal and irrefutable truth.) I soon realized I made a huge mistake. This guy uses Advanced Vulcan Argumentative Theories. Whatever he says, it seems bound to an unbreakable logic. Comic argumentation is the field of a competitive sport for which I am not trained enough.

Possibly provocative anecdotes aside, what's an asbestos? Aside of being the name of the city in which a few of my ancestors lived?

[Herald Alberich]

Possibly provocation anecdotes aside, what's an asbestos? Aside of being the name of the city in which a few of my ancestors lived?

It's a fire-retardant building material. You don't see it much anymore because it's also carcinogenic. The point was that he needed to get ready to be flamed.

[Liwen]

It's a fire-retardant building material. You don't see it much anymore because it's also carcinogenic. The point was that he needed to get ready to be flamed.

Ha well that makes a lot of sense. The city of Asbestos's main economic asset are the mines, in which asbestos is found in abundance. Until now, I only knew of the french name for asbestos, which is 'aimante'. I always presumed the city Asbestos was named after some company who originally started mining the ore.

[NerfTW]

and there's a good reason not to allow speculation/discussion about when a given strip will come out and why it's late: mostly because the question has already been answered, publicly, and doesn't need to be answered again.


It's also because, as has been proven time and time again, people will take it into their hands to stick their noses in other people's business. R.K. Milholland has had readers come to his door at night. Woody Hearn had some personal details about his relationship strewn across his message board. And one person on this board has actually contacted the company hosting GitP to inquire about upgrading the server.

The ban isn't really there because of the comic, it's there because some people think they have a right to know every detail, or think they can "help" because they possess some keen common sense that the artist doesn't. The comic updates when it updates, and any discussion of why will invariably lead to people digging into the Giant's personal life.

[Scalenex]

Why are comics picked apart? Here are three different but non-contradictory reasons.

1) Metaphor: A layman and one the world's leading professors of music theory listen to a concert. The layman likes the nice sounds, the professor analyzes every detail. They both enjoy it, one's enjoyment is more complicated seeming than the other. In fact the theorist can on some level appreciate the nice sounds with one part of his brain and do the analysis with another enjoying it more.

Analyzing strips in painstaking detail is a sign of enjoyment.

2) As the strip has progressed, the story has gotten more complicated and more interesting, while the humor has gotten a little stale. This leads to more posts of analysis and speculation and less posts stating variations of "LOL"

3) When many fans started, this comic did 3 updates a week most of the time. Now I'm hooked on the plot and can't leave, but updates come really slowly. Analyzing past comics for predictions of future comics creates pleasant speculation (positive), kills time (neutral), and/or vents frustration and "late" comics (negative). Whenever I get frustrated by slow updates, I remind myself that these comics are free, and I placate myself with Irregular Webcomic which is ironically the most regular webcomic on the Internet.

[veti]

I said, that I have a problem with that attitude, I did in no way try to silence him.
But that's (in a way) what he is doing by saying that anybody, who doesn't like the way a discussion is heading, should leave.

See the difference?

Not really, no.

I'm not saying you should leave. I have fundamental problems with the word "should" in most contexts. I'm just reminding you that it is an option. If you're reading a thread and not enjoying it, your suffering is largely self-inflicted.

Believe it or not, I do sympathise. I've been around discussion groups a long time, I know what you mean. But I think there's no cure for the problem you're describing, and complaining about it can only make it worse. (A killfile or score file option might help a little, but not as much as you might think.)

The only realistic option is to identify which posts interest you and which don't, and skip over the latter. Some authors very kindly put warnings at the top; with others, it's usually possible to tell within the first paragraph or so if they're just bickering.

Of course you still get the feeling that your own insightful, pithy, on-topic contributions are being drowned out by the bozos. Nothing I know can cure that. Welcome to the Internet.

[Jackson]

It's also because, as has been proven time and time again, people will take it into their hands to stick their noses in other people's business. R.K. Milholland has had readers come to his door at night. Woody Hearn had some personal details about his relationship strewn across his message board. And one person on this board has actually contacted the company hosting GitP to inquire about upgrading the server.

The ban isn't really there because of the comic, it's there because some people think they have a right to know every detail, or think they can "help" because they possess some keen common sense that the artist doesn't. The comic updates when it updates, and any discussion of why will invariably lead to people digging into the Giant's personal life.
Very good point.

There's a weird sense of having proprietary rights that comes with fandom, and which I, never having had this sense, do not quite understand. I've never felt I had a say over something I've enjoyed; usually I'm too happy that there's something I find enjoyable out there to feel I have that particular privilege. But even if I did, there's no way it would extend to the creator's private life. It's more than a little scary that there are people who think that it might.

[Turkish Delight]

I stopped enjoying it when...

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

b) I realized this forum is controlled by "don't talk about the schedule" nazi-moderators/censors. This one really killed my love of the comic. Hey, I like it, I'll read it, but it's stuff like that that prevents me from _loving_ it. Yknow, the way I have D&D, Dragonlance collections and the like. It's this kind of attitude that prevents me from getting a collection of OOTS books to go with all them.

Cheers

Comic Book Guy: As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.

Bart: What? They've given you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them.

Comic Book Guy: ...Worst episode ever.

And, of course, here we don't even have commercials we have to endure.

[Rosnet]

Comic Book Guy: As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.

Bart: What? They've given you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them.

Comic Book Guy: ...Worst episode ever.

And, of course, here we don't even have commercials we have to endure.

Hey, a question was asked, and I answered in my opinion. I open myself to judgment by doing so, as do people like Rich by opening his art like he does. If he didn't want to be reviewed, discussed or otherwise judged, then perhaps maybe he shouldn't employ the tactics that he does. Discussion for discussion's sake is good. Suddenly squelching said discussions when someone does an unthinkable thing like involving the calendar is not. I'm not trying to represent anyone other than myself, though whether you like it or not, I do. They just aren't as loud or as fanatical as most of you, because they see the repeated examples of lambasting, ridiculing, and otherwise heavy-handed Jude'ing of people into quiet submission. I didn't expect anyone to change their ways, please. Like I said, I just felt like answering the question that was posed.

Also, neither this, nor my original post had anything to do with his health. If If you think that, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Rich, you do your thing. I wish you well with it.

[Turkish Delight]

Hey, a question was asked, and I answered in my opinion. I open myself to judgment by doing so, as do people like Rich by opening his art like he does. If he didn't want to be reviewed, discussed or otherwise judged, then perhaps maybe he shouldn't employ the tactics that he does. Discussion for discussion's sake is good. Suddenly squelching said discussions when someone does an unthinkable thing like involving the calendar is not. I'm not trying to represent anyone other than myself, though whether you like it or not, I do. They just aren't as loud or as fanatical as most of you, because they see the repeated examples of lambasting, ridiculing, and otherwise heavy-handed Jude'ing of people into quiet submission. I didn't expect anyone to change their ways, please. Like I said, I just felt like answering the question that was posed.

Also, neither this, nor my original post had anything to do with his health. If If you think that, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Rich, you do your thing. I wish you well with it.

The slow pace of updating recently is frustrating, I agree. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying. But are you really saying you have no interest in buying the OotS books because the moderators here are too heavy-handed towards talking about the schedule?

The Giant offers us an entertaining web comic, free of cost. The place doesn't even have ads. If you would have otherwise bought the books but refuse to now because you're offended at the heavy-handed moderation, then it just seems to make no sense. It's not like the mods are playing Gestapo and squelching all negative opinion; they're attempting to keep the board clean of repetitive complaining that serves no purpose. It just seems such a completely minor thing to take offense at, especially given that we aren't paying.

[Rosnet]

especially given that we aren't paying.

Fair argument. I did want to call this one little point into question though, because I see it a lot. Are we really not paying? Sure many are not paying cash, but there are other forms of paying.

Example: I tell a friend that this is a cool comic. That's a form of me paying. I'm "paying" Rich by bringing him a new user that might read the comic, might like it and might buy the book, or an ornament, or participate in any of the current streams of revenue currently setup that translate my effort into actual cash in Rich's hand.

Now some may not equate my above example to "paying," and that's ok because we all have the ability to decide for ourselves. In any event, I think it is reasonable to say that many of us are "paying" in different terms, some more than others, some much less. Not everything boils down to a direct exchange of cash.

It's just frustrating to see well-reasoned, though-out and many times useful ideas get fascistly squelched with "...{Scrubbed}..." just because they touch the holy third-rail that is the calendar.

[MoonBeam]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

When I started to read this forum. I still enjoy the comic, it continues to be very amusing and gives me a lot of ROFLs, though not in the same way as it used to. Hmm, you get me?

[Herald Alberich]

Also, neither this, nor my original post had anything to do with his health. If If you think that, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. Rich, you do your thing. I wish you well with it.

Really? Well, I guess you're right, you didn't mention that. But you did say:

a) I realized that there's no effort to make updates consistent. There are weeks of multiple updates, then there are multiple weeks with few updates. For whatever reason, Rich seems unwilling to spread things out a bit and again, make them more consistent and reliable.

And everyone else replied that his health problems prevent him from doing that; he gets the strips up when he can finish them. So that's where that came from.


Example: I tell a friend that this is a cool comic. That's a form of me paying. I'm "paying" Rich by bringing him a new user that might read the comic, might like it and might buy the book, or an ornament, or participate in any of the current streams of revenue currently setup that translate my effort into actual cash in Rich's hand.

Now some may not equate my above example to "paying," and that's ok because we all have the ability to decide for ourselves. In any event, I think it is reasonable to say that many of us are "paying" in different terms, some more than others, some much less. Not everything boils down to a direct exchange of cash.

Indeed, word-of-mouth is a very effective form of free advertising, especially on the internet, and is probably the main reason this comic is so popular. I think what makes it not "paying" is that there are two levels of free choice here: 1, you decide to tell someone about the comic, and 2, they decide to read it.

[Taekwondodo]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

For me I would have to say never, but then I have no interest in the D&D style stats and merely enjoy it as a comic.

[fangthane]

Threw is what you did to a ball.

I never stopped enjoying OotS, and I've been unable to stop myself anticipating, number-crunching and all the rest as the series progressed. I think it's a side-effect of being a reasonably intelligent person with an interest in D&D mechanics and ideosyncrasies, humour and the plot Rich has explored (and continues to do) with the comic.

I enjoy when various folks (and I shouldn't need to name them - and wouldn't want to appear to slight any by omission) argue over the minutiae of plot and motivation in terms of who must/must not be X alignment, and how such and such an action affected things. I enjoy when people make hard assumptions - however well-justified - because even I can see that multiple angles give Rich some wiggle-room even in the tightest of painted-in corners. Whether right or wrong, such discussions stimulate thought, and I can't consider that a bad thing. (I was one of those who cried foul at the Moderately Escapable Force Cage, but it didn't prevent my enjoyment of that or subsequent strips)

I also enjoy the rare occasions when someone comes up with something I'd missed, or manages to put together a rationale for something I'd dismissed as unreasonable.

And with all that, I still somehow manage to enjoy almost every strip to the fullest. I'll freely admit that there are some I've enjoyed less and some more, but the basic enjoyment I experience in reading OotS is enhanced, not diminished, by the dissection, dissertation and yes, even nitpicking, that goes on here in the forum.

[NerfTW]

Now some may not equate my above example to "paying," and that's ok because we all have the ability to decide for ourselves. In any event, I think it is reasonable to say that many of us are "paying" in different terms, some more than others, some much less. Not everything boils down to a direct exchange of cash.


You're right. That's not paying at all. I think that's the most self righteous definition of "paying" I've ever heard. What on earth are you spending by telling friends about an online comic?

[Weimann]

Well, frankly, I don't see the connection there. I myself perfer to not overanalyze a comic (or for that matter, any work of fiction that doesn't explicitly have deeper meanings), but clearly some people like to do it.

I don't think they enjoy the less because of that.

[joeaverage]

The great thing is that even if someone does stop enjoying OotS at some point there's millions of other distractions out there. I know a guy who has 13000 books just in the sci-fi and fantasy genre(hasn't read them all of course. just some kind of compulsive urge.)

At this point the supply of entertainment is so massive that there's no reason getting upset about anyone slowing or even stopping his production of it.

[dragoncmd]

Actually if OotS were a bill in the Senate, no one at all would have read it.

Wow, its been a long time since I last posted, but this line is awesome.

[AdamG]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

I stopped enjoying it when updates started happening once a week, or less. If we could get two updates a week, I would feel a lot better.

[armourer eric]

You gotta admit though, that having the clouds spelling out "Roy is the Walrus" in Tolein Sindarin in the Afterlife scenes was priceless.

[Scalenex]

Comic Book Guy: As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.

Bart: What? They've given you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them.

Comic Book Guy: ...Worst episode ever.

And, of course, here we don't even have commercials we have to endure.

Well I bought some OoS books, does that mean I am legitimately owed something or not? I can't take the slow updates anymore, I'm going to delete my bookmark for OoS and check back in a month--then I can read three comics in a row.

[Turkish Delight]

Well I bought some OoS books, does that mean I am legitimately owed something or not? I can't take the slow updates anymore, I'm going to delete my bookmark for OoS and check back in a month--then I can read three comics in a row.

It means you have much more valid grounds on which to complain, yes. Complaints about the book itself, especially.

Just...don't act like you or I or anyone is entitled to anything, or that Rich is someone doing us wrong. Rich's update schedule has been very, very slow recently; if worse comes to worse, just say 'well, it was fun while it lasted' and move on to greener pastures, having lost almost nothing for your interest in the comic and gained quite a bit.

Since that seems to be what you're doing, all is well.

[NerfTW]

I stopped enjoying it when updates started happening once a week, or less. If we could get two updates a week, I would feel a lot better.
-edit- quoted the wrong person

I put this in another thread, I think I'll add it here. This is why he doesn't have a buffer:


10/14/2007

So, obviously, The Order of the Stick is back. I've gotten a few emails from...let's call them, "passionately concerned readers"...who were under the mistaken impression that once my vacation was over, OOTS would return to a regular Monday-Wednesday-Friday schedule. Just to clear everything up, no, OOTS's update schedule will remain random for the foreseeable future. Taking three weeks off was very good for me, but it doesn't actually change any of the facts that caused me to switch to a random schedule in the first place.

The goal is still to have three comics a week, every week, but that may not be possible. The next best thing, therefore, is to "catch up" afterwards when circumstances force me to miss. I only produced one comic last week, so now I have posted four this week—putting me only one comic "in the hole". So during some future week when the stars align more favorably (maybe next week, maybe not), I will again post four comics to bring me up to a three-a-week average since the comic's return from hiatus. And once I "zero out" my late comic balance, any additional comics beyond three that I do in any given week will go into a hypothetical buffer to guard against future absences. Or at least, that's the plan. We'll see how it plays out in reality.

and


7/7/2007-
Those of you who have been readers a long time know that I tend to go in cycles with the strip: a few weeks on time, followed by a few weeks where most of the comics are late (and some days are missed altogether). Oftentimes, I’ll make an announcement afterwards that I was sick. The thing is, I get sick a lot, and that’s not likely to change in the future. For more than two years, I’ve been experiencing a medical condition that often leaves me unable to work (or even sit at the computer) for 2-3 days at a time, and the symptoms tend to come and go in clumps. I’ll be fine for a few weeks, then have a few really bad weeks where I struggle to get any work done. This is part of the reason I never can manage to create a “buffer” of strips in advance: I spend all of my working time catching up on stuff I was supposed to finish while I was sick. (No, I’m not going to tell you exactly what is wrong with me; it’s nobody’s business. Suffice to say that it is nonfatal and my significant other takes good care of me.)

[Manachu Boy]

Myself I never stopped enjoying OOTS, or reading the forums. They are, however, two totally different entities. I like reading the comic for it's wonderful blend of drama and D&D jokes, I like reading the forums 'coz all that nitpicking and stuff is actually hilarious in a way; it's like you've got your own crazy brand of trolls here who exist to try and argue the most undefendable points just to either see if it can be done or just to be contrary.

That's not to say the nitpicking doesn't put me off from posting, it really does and that's why I post almost on a monthly basis at best. But hey, this section of the forums is certainly a good read if a little intimidating to contribute to.

[Prowl]

I agree Manachu... these forums are a source of endless amusement all on their own.

[The Pink Ninja]

You stopped loving it when you started posting here.

I read the manga Haijime No Ippo for ages and loved every page.

Then I checked a big forum thread on it and I was raging in about ten mins.

This is a fandom, and fandoms make you fandumb.

If you really want to enjoy a continuing series, don't talk about it.

[Richard J.]

Actually if OotS were a bill in the Senate, no one at all would have read it.Glad you posted that because otherwise I would have and with my luck, it probably would have been as if I'd posted a Symbol of Insanity.

I'm immune to the schedule rage since I can and have waited years to get things that I've wanted. (Complete series collections of 80s cartoons like The Real Ghostbusters and GI JOE for instance.) I can handle the delays.

Reading the forum does frustrate me sometimes but that's a completely different creature from the comic itself. I love the comic. Personally, I think Mr. Burlew has a great sense of characterization and I love the art style. Before reading this comic, I would have laughed at the idea of crying over a stick figure character's death.

Now I know better.

I'm more than willing to let the schedule slide if it means the quality stays high and as long as I don't read certain threads here for more than a few posts, I can keep my soul from dying from THE DRAMA. (Seriously, some folks need to relax a little.)

[WristWatchMafia]

I just hope the author doesn't listen to all the crazies, and keeps making his surprisingly-moving story in his own time. :smallsmile:

[The Tygre]

I just hope the author doesn't listen to all the crazies, and keeps making his surprisingly-moving story in his own time. :smallsmile:

Don't worry; worse things like Miko or V's gender haven't been so much as a pebble in the Giant's shoe. I just hope he gets some well earned rest to recharge his tanks and lay out the skeleton of a story.

As for enjoyment... I can't speak for everyone, but I stopped enjoying OotS as a comedy exactly around the time I started enjoying it as a magnificent, well-written, epic fantasy adventure -with comedy-. As the spotlight, at least.

[Scarlet Knight]

You're right. That's not paying at all. I think that's the most self righteous definition of "paying" I've ever heard. What on earth are you spending by telling friends about an online comic?

You spend your time telling your friends about OOTS. It may be a minimal cost, but it has value. Especially if the product has to pay for advertising, which would love to be able to start a word-of-mouth campaign. Why do you think companies will pass out caps with their logo? It costs them money, but just getting their name out brings in income.

As any sports franchise knows: Never dismiss the value of fan loyalty.

[Cerrakoth]

It's my opinion that, Rich reads the forums, reads what people of made of what x or y said, and found a way to work around them, just to throw them off balance :smallwink:

[Kish]

For the record, he's said he's never changed the comic based on anyone's predictions. :smalltongue:

[JaxGaret]

Now don't get me wrong we all enjoy OotS, but when did we stop enjoying it for the glorious and hilarious comic that it is and start to disect it like a bill trying to be passed threw the senate?

We now go over every word writen and every line drawn in the comic and try to make something out of it. Take for instance the phone call from the boss, Rich pulls random #s out of the air and we try to make something out of them. Is it foreshadowing? What could the #s mean? What do the represent? We already know they were random and mean nothing, but it goes to show that some of us have lost our love of the comic as a comic and try to disect it to mean something.

Does everything placed in the comic have to lead to something else or can it really there for the fact that its funny? Could something Rich wrote as a funny side note really be a foreshadowing for a strip a year and a half later or is it really just a funny side note that was just a strange coincidence?

Either way I think we should ease up on the knit picking and enjoy a hilarious comic. :) We can all still enjoy the possible theories and predictions and fun banter and possibilities, but I feel that somewhere some of the fun was lost and replaced with too much seriousness. We could all ease up and allow Rich enjoy himself again. :)

Never.

You're taking the cumulative actions of a collective entity (the gitp forums) and projecting its combined output as the individual viewpoint of each and every person on the boards. This is, obviously, a patently false argument.

[Hitorijun]

I really didn't thing my thread would have gotten so much traffic and ignite such a heated debate

[Optimystik]

I really didn't thing my thread would have gotten so much traffic and ignite such a heated debate

You made a blanket statement about the entire community's lack of enjoyment of the comic and you didn't expect a lot of dissenting opinions? We wouldn't be posting if we didn't enjoy it.