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vampire2948
2009-08-04, 09:31 AM
Hey,

I'm playing in a horror-themed campaign, where the main enemy is the tainted undead, mostly controlled by a lich and his various minions. There are very few living enemies.

Our party consists of:


Myself, a 10th level NG Cleric of 'The Father' (custom Pantheon) with the Domains of Tyranny and Community.
The other players are:
10th level Archivist / Sorceror [she hasn't quite decided yet]
10th level Ranger [favoured enemy undead, very anti-undead in feats and such. I usually cast Disrupting weapon on his swords so he can cleave through some zombies]
10th level Warlock [Not sure of her invocations or similar, but she seems to be good at dealing damage, and I know she has Fell Flight.]
10th level Rogue / [Class i'm not aware of. He gets a lot of luck rolls though. Might be favoured soul]


After our last adventure exploring the house of a dead witch due to a contingent sending, and recovering the phylactery of the BBEG from the ruins. (We cannot destroy the Phylactery. We tried. It has plot armour or something.) We returned back to our base city, which is a port-town.
There were some hints from various sources that there would be an attack on the town presently, and so my Cleric cast a Divination spell or two to find out exactly when this would happen.

The attack is scheduled for the second sunset after that evening. So we have two days.

I need to make preperations for the town's defense, being the party's only divine spellcaster. [We have the Archivist, but I don't know if she's playing one... or what spells she'll take.

The Plan

The plan is to split up the party to defend different locations. Myself, the warlock and the rogue/favoured soul will be defending the Church of the Seven [There are 7 gods].
The archivist//sorceror and the ranger will be defending the house/court of the lord of the city. (who is 8 years old, btw)

There may be a little help from the town guard / similar, and from our own organisation (we run an enforcer / protection type thing).

Current spells i've cast:

Widened Hallow [With death ward] taking up 24 hrs cast time, covering an 80ft radius circle around the area where the Ranger and Archivist//Sorceror will be standing. [This does not cover the church]
4x Glyphs of Warding with Searing Light in them, command word activated. These are placed around the walls of the church I'm defending.
Consecrate at the church (+6 to turn checks, -4 to undead saves and rolls)

Before the sun sets, I will be casting Greater Status on all the party, allowing me to heal them from wherever I am.
The Ranger and Archivist//Sorceror will have scrolls and potions of healing, death ward, protection from evil, and disrupting weapon.


Now, I need to know if i've missed anything. I know there will be a couple of vampires in the attack, and their abilities should be blocked by hallow / consecrate + death ward. But aside from that, it should be mostly mindless and low CR undead - and a lot of them.

I'm considering casting a series spells to summon a few celestials in for the fight. I assume they'd be happy to help and wouldn't require a large payment.

So - Any ideas?

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-04, 09:54 AM
Hmm.... I'd reccomend a shotgun, but you'd probably have to travel to an alternative Material Plane to get one of those, and you'd be short on ammo. :smallwink:

Just a thought, but make sure the vamps can't steal back the phylactery somehow.

vampire2948
2009-08-04, 10:07 AM
I'm not entirely sure that they know where the phylactery is. But it is in a safe location regardless - and whether or not it is taken from there is up to the DM, not us, since we gave it to a group of high level wizard types to destroy for us.

And no, the wizards won't help us defend the town. They're busy breaking a phylactery.

UserClone
2009-08-04, 10:42 AM
You know, I never even noticed that spell. How the heck can disrupting weapon be used on any melee weapon, but the property of disrupting can only be added onto a magical bludgeoning weapon? [/threadderail]

Lysander
2009-08-04, 10:58 AM
If vampires are attacking make sure to get lots of garlic. Give each person a clove to wear around their neck and spread little pieces of garlic all around the area you expect to fight in. Vampires will not be able to approach. If you can't get garlic, anyone can use a mirror or holy symbols to keep them at bay.

Create some holy water and distribute it for use as a splash weapon. Splash weapons will be handy when dealing with tightly packed weak undead.

Have spells or potions to protect against common undead abilities like paralysis and stench.

Also, mindless undead are stupid. Prepare diversions to lead them off so you can fight them in smaller groups. Use Hide from Undead to escape and regroup when needed. They will probably also fall prey to hidden traps set in their path, and if anyone has illusion spells will be easy to trick and mislead.

Forbiddenwar
2009-08-04, 11:23 AM
He probably already has one, but make sure the rogue has the Augment crystal True Death Greater so he can sneak attack undead.

Alejandro
2009-08-04, 02:01 PM
Find a bard that can perform Thriller.

:)

Johel
2009-08-04, 02:19 PM
Also, mindless undead are stupid. Prepare diversions to lead them off so you can fight them in smaller groups. Use Hide from Undead to escape and regroup when needed. They will probably also fall prey to hidden traps set in their path, and if anyone has illusion spells will be easy to trick and mislead.

Screaming commoner + Pole + Rope.
Best bait ever. :smallamused:
What ? You took Tyranny as domain, didn't you ?


Arrange people on the roofs, equipped with slings.
Have people work on fortifications.
Make barricades erected in every streets. Commoners might hold their ground that way.
Make pits digged wherever you can. Make barricades on BOTH side of the pits.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 02:19 PM
Hmm.... I'd reccomend a shotgun, but you'd probably have to travel to an alternative Material Plane to get one of those, and you'd be short on ammo. :smallwink:


Have you seen the d20 modern rules for shotguns?

Better to just steal a 1973 Oldsmobile Delta 88.

Alejandro
2009-08-04, 02:25 PM
Take advantage of the fact that (unless commanded somehow) the undead will be mindless. All kinds of traps that they'll walk right into. I'm reminded of the traps in Half-Life 2, where someone placed a sharp blade on a gasoline motor and created a zombie dismemberer.

Random832
2009-08-04, 02:30 PM
a sharp blade on a gasoline motor

There's a proper name for that kind of device, you know... it's called a "lawnmower". :smallbiggrin:

Alejandro
2009-08-04, 02:34 PM
There's a proper name for that kind of device, you know... it's called a "lawnmower". :smallbiggrin:

Ha! True, but in this case I believe they were auto engines and four to five foot blades.

But really, even a regular lawnmower could make a mess of a zombie, if you turned the blades to face them and got them to touch it.

chiasaur11
2009-08-04, 02:42 PM
Ha! True, but in this case I believe they were auto engines and four to five foot blades.

But really, even a regular lawnmower could make a mess of a zombie, if you turned the blades to face them and got them to touch it.

Just ask Peter Jackson.

Hawriel
2009-08-04, 03:19 PM
Your a "good" character with the tyranny domane? :smallconfused:

The town does not have walls or at leat a burm?

If not I would pick the strongest building in town and block it off. Most likely this would be the church. Block off all the roads leading to the chosen building. You can do this by using wagons, ripping up fencing and other small structures. Board up buildings and incorporate them as strong points. Make the roads that are blocked so they funnel the undead into them. Party members are used as a reaction force to support breaches or to man week points in the line.

bosssmiley
2009-08-04, 03:44 PM
You know, I never even noticed that spell. How the heck can disrupting weapon be used on any melee weapon, but the property of disrupting can only be added onto a magical bludgeoning weapon? [/threadderail]

Clerics are the classic anti-undead characters in D&D and traditionally their iconic weapon is...? Ah hah.

disrupting : mace :: vorpal/sharpness : sword

Lysander
2009-08-04, 03:50 PM
Cast Insect Plague! Locust swarms are immune to weapons. A zombie fist or a skeleton's unmagical sword can't hurt swarms! If you have barricades wait until the undead start attacking them, then summon a swarm right on the other side of your wall them so every round the undead attack your barricades they have to stay in the swarm and take 2d6 damage.

You still have time to build barricades and raised platforms for archers and holy water throwers with Wall of Stone.

Keep a few powerful spells on hand to deal with the inevitable "boss undead" or necromancer that will be leading the attack.

Any way to create a convincing replica of the phylactery? Perhaps the enemy will send part of their force into an ambush or trap if they think they can recover the phylactery. You don't need to fool the BBEG himself, just whoever catches a glimpse of it and tells him about it.

But most importantly, don't focus just on fighting the undead. You can be sure that your DM is going to throw you a curveball. Be ready for the unexpected. Figure out a Plan B in case the battle goes poorly. What's your escape route? Is there a way to evacuate the civilians if you have to flee? Should you evacuate some of them beforehand? How will you reconvene if separated?

PapaNachos
2009-08-04, 04:00 PM
You could also construct a makeshift catwalk between the tops of the buildings (depending on how tall and close together they are). It would allow easy movement across the city, and if a building ever becomes compromised you can just evacuate everyone and remove its bridges. You could then barricade the street level without much trouble.

How large of a town is it and how much of the population could help in a fight? And what are the non-combatants going to be doing while you're fighting?

Make sure you have plenty of ways to move around the city and communicate with both your other party members and the other fighters.

Johel
2009-08-04, 04:09 PM
Cast Insect Plague! Locust swarms are immune to weapons. A zombie fist or a skeleton's unmagical sword can't hurt swarms! If you have barricades wait until the undead start attacking them, then summon a swarm right on the other side of your wall them so every round the undead attack your barricades they have to stay in the swarm and take 2d6 damage.

You still have time to build barricades and raised platforms for archers and holy water throwers with Wall of Stone.

Keep a few powerful spells on hand to deal with the inevitable "boss undead" or necromancer that will be leading the attack.

Any way to create a convincing replica of the phylactery? Perhaps the enemy will send part of their force into an ambush or trap if they think they can recover the phylactery. You don't need to fool the BBEG himself, just whoever catches a glimpse of it and tells him about it.

But most importantly, don't focus just on fighting the undead. You can be sure that your DM is going to throw you a curveball. Be ready for the unexpected. Figure out a Plan B in case the battle goes poorly. What's your escape route? Is there a way to evacuate the civilians if you have to flee? Should you evacuate some of them beforehand? How will you reconvene if separated?

The "Insect Plague" is just awesome. :smallsmile:

I wouldn't use the Wall of Stone, thought.
That's a wasted 5th level spellslot, since it's a lot easier to just pack furnitures, carts, pavement and stuff if you want a barricade. And if you want a plateform, it's a city : USE THE ROOFS !!
Put commoners on the roof, block the doors downstairs (somebody already said it) and have them beat skeletons sniper-style.
Use the 5th level spellslots for Insect Plague only.

Sir Dar
2009-08-04, 04:21 PM
Arm the villagers and train them In the arts of war. Make sure the they all have a range and melee weapon.So they can rain death on the undead befor they get in melee range.. Melee weapon for when the undead get in close.



how to train the villagers you ask. You can all ways do it the roman way. Give them a sword,sheild,and a range weapon that is destroy when it hits the foe.There is the greek phalanx .It would hold off the lesser undead like flys.with only 2 days to train and ready the village,training to use the phalanx seen unlikey.For it takes highly trained skill infantry to pull off.If you must silt up the group make sure both partys have a way of communicate with each other.


If the main undead army is the slow weak kind of undead. Hit and run attack would work great. If there fast zombies. archers behide or on top of a building guard by melee fighters.Just in case you may want to get ready a few ways to deal with a undead dragon. You know them lichs they like useing undead dragons.



does the town have any allys or other friendly towns/citys/kings guard/paladin order nearby that can come to there aid. If so send a messager.



If you going to hold you self up in the towns strongest building. try to build a wooden wall or a small moat filled with sea monsters a round said building. Build or lay down as many traps as you can.From spears in the hole to a fire arrow hiting the ground and strating a big fire where undead are at.

make sure you have a escape plan ready just in case things don't go well.That all i can think of for now. good luck at beating back the undead.

Doug Lampert
2009-08-04, 04:31 PM
You know, I never even noticed that spell. How the heck can disrupting weapon be used on any melee weapon, but the property of disrupting can only be added onto a magical bludgeoning weapon? [/threadderail]

ObOrderOfTheStick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0104.html). It's not like readers of this sight have never seen a disrupting greatsword.

Alejandro
2009-08-04, 04:35 PM
If you going to hold you self up in the towns strongest building. try to build a wooden wall or a small moat filled with sea monsters a round said building.

LOL!! Sea monsters just kills me.

Ravens_cry
2009-08-04, 04:37 PM
You know, I never even noticed that spell. How the heck can disrupting weapon be used on any melee weapon, but the property of disrupting can only be added onto a magical bludgeoning weapon? [/threadderail]
I know, I always wanted a Disrupting Scythe. That Glowed Blue.
And I would TALK LIKE THIS.
Can you make positive energy traps? Heal your buddies, hurt your enemies is always a good win-win situation.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-04, 04:45 PM
Get a bunch of things to barricade off several of the narrower streets and alleyways, then get a whole bunch of wood and cast shrink item on it. Then fabricate into a bunch of tower shields (you can create MANY more shields if you're working on shrunken materials). Have a bunch of commoners hold the shields as cover, and advance down each street wall-to-wall, while archers stand behind them (preferably on rooftops) and snipe.

ericgrau
2009-08-04, 05:39 PM
Holy water moat.

wykydtron
2009-08-04, 06:33 PM
Holy water moat.

+1 for the holy water mote.

Fizban
2009-08-04, 06:56 PM
Well you start by having the commoners all fight non-lethal duels against each other for a couple weeks so they can level up a couple times into warlock and dragon shaman...

If the sorcerer can pick up the Lucent Lance spell, two shots should insta-kill any vampire. Each hit counts as a full round in direct sunlight for light vulnerable creatures, so two in a row would dust it. That's two 5th level spells though, and at 10th level you probably don't have that to spare for every vamp.

The layout of the town would be useful. Wall of Fire can slaughter skeletons and zombies and put a dent in anything else, but if you can't choke them into it there's no point. If you had a Rod of Chaining you could chain a Greater Magic Weapon onto all the peasants weapons for a bit of a boost. Holy Storm hits your basic 20' radius with evil damaging rain for 1 round/level, great for bringing down a mob about the eat the villagers (as long as the villagers aren't evil).

Any particular reason you need to split up? It's a lot easier to defend an area with magic if you only have to defend the one area.

Johel
2009-08-04, 07:54 PM
Arm the villagers and train them In the arts of war. (lot's of other cool ideas...)


Well you start by having the commoners all fight non-lethal duels against each other for a couple weeks so they can level up a couple times into warlock and dragon shaman...

Two days. No time for training the citizens. Barely enough time to make defenses and set a battleplan. Best they can do is probably just hand over a sling and a club to everyone, tell them where to stand, what to do and hope none of them run away when the enemy's closing.

No fancy, complicated tactics 'cause with untrained conscripts, it's going to fail. And failure against undeads means more undeads to fight against.


Any particular reason you need to split up? It's a lot easier to defend an area with magic if you only have to defend the one area.

Maybe because you cannot just pack the whole population in a single building ? The PC will successfully defend the church but what's the point ? Half of the population will get slaughtered on the walls or in the streets because there'll be nobody to lead them.

Also, if they just all gang at one place, they're basically letting most of the enemy army get into the city without much casualties, as I suppose the undeads won't just charge the main gate. Skeletons will swarm from all direction and when the necromancer finds a weak spot, he'll push through himself, with his reserves following right behind and basically overwhelming the (now useless) outer defenses. That's it, if the defense is equal everywhere. If he see there's only ONE spot which is defended... well, that's even easier for him because he just have to send minions on THAT spot to keep the PCs busy while most of the undead horde just enter the city from other points.

vampire2948
2009-08-04, 07:58 PM
The reason we have to split up is because we have to defend the whole town, and those two points are strategic enough that holding them both will make it very difficult for the undead to get other parts, apparently. I really need to get the DM to give me a map.

Since I lack a map, working out where I want traps and NPCs with various weapons to go is difficult.

Also - I've spent 26 hrs of my time casting in the two day window that I have. So I don't have much time to do anything except prepare spell slots and rest. I'll try to get the Ranger to organise some sort of commoner army.. and if the person plays an archivist, perhaps she'll cast another hallow. That would be useful.

I like many of the above ideas, thank you all! I shall try to include all of them which are plausible in my stratergy.

Vampire2948,

EDIT:


Two days. No time for training the citizens. Barely enough time to make defenses and set a battleplan. Best they can do is probably just hand over a sling and a club to everyone, tell them where to stand, what to do and hope none of them run away when the enemy's closing.

No fancy, complicated tactics 'cause with untrained conscripts, it's going to fail. And failure against undeads means more undeads to fight against.

Correct - Two days is hardly much time at all. All the people who will be involved in the battle are our little group of enforcer-type-NPCs, and the PCs. There might be a couple of wizards from the guild there - but that's unlikely.


We don't actually know where anything is coming from - just that most of the undead are on, or under, the sea at the moment - this makes it likely that they will attack from the sea.
To counter this, myself and the other PCs will start off at the port side of the city, and then run to other places if they attack from a different directon.

Renrik
2009-08-04, 08:37 PM
Let's see if I can think of anything that hasn't already been suggested.

First, if there's a high-level cleric in the town, which there ought to be, ave him bless any water he can get his hands on and distribute it to gans of children on the rooftops. Or to halflings. They get a net +2 on throwing (with size mod).

I would leave some of the peasants or town guard in reserve to be used where needed most after the battle begins. You don't want them tangled up with something asinine when the zombie horde is butchering your conscripts.

If you can, try to use communication or transportation spells of any type to move reinforcements to your position from other cities and castles.

Normally, one should arm peasant conscripts with spears and pikes for maximum effect, but I would in this case suggest any damned bludgeoning weapon you can get your hands on.

Again, garlic. Depending on the rules your DM is using, also hang up some mirrors at key places and tell everyone not to invite strangers into their houses that night.

Don't use fire. You're in a city. It's a bad idea.

sofawall
2009-08-04, 09:06 PM
Hmm...

Addressing the issue of "If we defend one spot, they'll get in everywhere else!", if you manage to block off all entrances with wood, it'll take forever for random undead to get in (hardness 5 on wood, if I recall correctly). Higher-ups could get in, sure, but if you have watchers/holy water throwers positioned strategically, they can run for the PCs. The PCs are supposed to fight the tough ones anyway, and it'll give some time to get in.

Also, if there's a wall, it's easy. Block the gates. Basic common undead can't break stone, and anything tough enough to do so, again, send for the PCs.

Mainly, try your best to funnel. If your DM has decided two spots need to be defended, nothing you do can change that. You will need to defend two spots. Railroads beat magic every time.

Jack_Simth
2009-08-04, 09:18 PM
Mind you, if you can locate a Cleric that can do a Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) with a password, you've got quite the lesser undead mass extinction mechanism. The minimum caster for it gets 11 60-foot cubes ... and if the caster is, say, Lawful Good, NE Zombies and Skeletons get zapped with 12d6 damage on entering. No limit on how many of them get zapped. Pricey, though.

Lamech
2009-08-04, 09:23 PM
If Vampires are coming get yourselves deeded the town. Then form an agreement, only with permission from all the owners, are people allowed in. Allow in all the townsfolk. No more vampire attacks.

The phylactery of invincibility. Place it in an empty bag of holding. Stab bag of holding. Repeatedly. Congrats. The phylactery is now lost forever, so when the lich regenerates he'll be with it. Now I'm sure plane shift will get you out of there... plane shift has a focus. The lich will now be trapped forever. Hint: Use commune to get the liches spells, and then use commune to determine how the void can be escaped. Five bucks says "Plane Shift" will be the only way out the lich can use. Then point out plane shift has a focus. Also note limited wish works too... make sure he doesn't have that preped/known before getting rid of the phylactery.

Lysander
2009-08-04, 10:06 PM
The "Insect Plague" is just awesome. :smallsmile:

I wouldn't use the Wall of Stone, thought.
That's a wasted 5th level spellslot, since it's a lot easier to just pack furnitures, carts, pavement and stuff if you want a barricade. And if you want a plateform, it's a city : USE THE ROOFS !!
Put commoners on the roof, block the doors downstairs (somebody already said it) and have them beat skeletons sniper-style.
Use the 5th level spellslots for Insect Plague only.

I'd only use Wall of Stone if you're still going to regain spells before the battle. If so, hey, free walls of stone. You might also be able to make something useful with Stone Shape. Otherwise conserve your spell slots. If you can't make much of a barricade just try to force the undead into chokepoints and use Insect Plague on them while they wait in line to reach your fighters.

More tactics:

Quickly have townsfolk build fake doors and put them onto the walls of buildings. Zombies may be fooled into wasting time banging a plank of wood with solid brick behind it.

In addition to real traps put things on the ground that look like traps, but actually aren't. It won't affect mindless undead but if they are being controlled their controller might waste time carefully navigating them through.

Make sure to have plenty of light available. Undead can see in darkness. Humans can't. There's no advantage is maintaining a stealthy darkness.

How big is the enemy army? Is there a way to scout and see exactly what you face beforehand? Are there flying creatures to worry about?

Babale
2009-08-04, 11:09 PM
I'd love to help you, but anything I say can and will be used against me in the Necromancer campaign.

So, let me just say: Try to get Energy Substitution (Positive) and cast Wall of Fire. Heals your allies, kills undead.

UserClone
2009-08-04, 11:20 PM
Clerics are the classic anti-undead characters in D&D and traditionally their iconic weapon is...? Ah hah.

disrupting : mace :: vorpal/sharpness : sword

Right you are, but keen edge and keen property specify piercing or slashing and vorpal specifies slashing, whereas disruption specifies bludgeoning, but disrupting weapon does not. Just seems, I don't know, *wrong* somehow.

deuxhero
2009-08-04, 11:23 PM
Can you get some Wall of Stones? Illusions?
If you need to kill a large number of zombies, work off how they are mindless, simple traps will kill them en masse if you are fighting a stupid necromancer who hasn't realized that the best undead are things that do not advance by character level and uses demi-human undead.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-05, 12:50 AM
I know, I always wanted a Disrupting Scythe. That Glowed Blue.
And I would TALK LIKE THIS.
Can you make positive energy traps? Heal your buddies, hurt your enemies is always a good win-win situation.

When someone mentions Terry Pratchet, they win. When they do so in a manner that only someone who reads TP would get, they doublewin.

Johel
2009-08-05, 02:38 AM
Addressing the issue of "If we defend one spot, they'll get in everywhere else!", if you manage to block off all entrances with wood, it'll take forever for random undead to get in (hardness 5 on wood, if I recall correctly). Higher-ups could get in, sure, but if you have watchers/holy water throwers positioned strategically, they can run for the PCs. The PCs are supposed to fight the tough ones anyway, and it'll give some time to get in.

Also, if there's a wall, it's easy. Block the gates. Basic common undead can't break stone, and anything tough enough to do so, again, send for the PCs.


They don't actually need to break it. Just climb over the (unguarded) barricades. That's why you want even a few commoners at the top of each obstacle to just push them back and throw things at the horde.

Also, ladders are easy to make. And so are battering rams and Ogre zombies (even Orc zombies will do for Strength). Even mindless undeads can carry objects. When the necromancer orders them around, they are like normal people, they just don't talk much and don't take initiative beside "kill livings" or "flee the holy light".

So, yes, I doubt a wizard (supposed to be intelligent) will just send an army of corpses without a few preparation. After all, his army can travel 24/24 and it takes him two days to get to the city ? That means a living army would need 6 days to do the same... or that he actually spent a whole day preparing various equipements.

Your tactic is good to defend a specific building but not a city. If the outer wall has one undefended spot and the enemy see it, then defending the rest of the outer wall become pointless, as the enemy can circle around you with most troops while you're busy with a few mooks.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 03:48 AM
First, if there's a high-level cleric in the town, which there ought to be, ave him bless any water he can get his hands on and distribute it to gans of children on the rooftops. Or to halflings. They get a net +2 on throwing (with size mod).


I am the highest level cleric in the town. I'll be sure to burn all my spell slots of the relevant level on bless water.


The phylactery of invincibility. Place it in an empty bag of holding. Stab bag of holding. Repeatedly. Congrats. The phylactery is now lost forever, so when the lich regenerates he'll be with it. Now I'm sure plane shift will get you out of there... plane shift has a focus. The lich will now be trapped forever. Hint: Use commune to get the liches spells, and then use commune to determine how the void can be escaped. Five bucks says "Plane Shift" will be the only way out the lich can use. Then point out plane shift has a focus. Also note limited wish works too... make sure he doesn't have that preped/known before getting rid of the phylactery.

This was the third thing we tried to get rid of it, and my group uses alternative rules for bag of holding destruction, so the phylactery would actually have been destroyed. The DM just said "No."

How big is the enemy army? Is there a way to scout and see exactly what you face beforehand? Are there flying creatures to worry about?

One of my Divination spells requested the number of the army. It worked, but the answer was just "Many." There is no way to scout them in the time we have left, as we are not sure where they are - and most of them, if not all of them, are underwater at the moment. Which makes looking for them AND getting back safe difficult.
There are likely not flying creatures, or if there are, not many. Our warlock can probably deal with those by activating Fell Flight, and being healed by me through Greater Status.

drakh
2009-08-05, 05:02 AM
On destroying the Phylactery: no need for that. Find a way to move it to the Positive Energy Plane. Kill the lich.
A lich stuck in an endless death/resurrection cycle is quite funny.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 05:23 AM
On destroying the Phylactery: no need for that. Find a way to move it to the Positive Energy Plane. Kill the lich.
A lich stuck in an endless death/resurrection cycle is quite funny.

The lich would probably find out where it was.. due to the DM wanting him to, and we know he has plane-travelling powers. So he'd likely send a living servant to go and recover it, since it would be less dangerous for him.
Nice idea, though :smallsmile:

Paul H
2009-08-05, 05:31 AM
Hi

1) Hire a Radiant Servant of Pelor who can cast Sunburst. Yes it does have SR, but 160' Radius! :smallbiggrin:

2) Channel the attackers into 'Killing Zones'. Don't barricade everywhere. Leave a few 'loose' points where the enemy can break in, only to be mown down by volley fire from Holy/Ghost Touch weapons.

3) Ensure appropriate spells availabe - Sheltered Vitality, Holy Storm, Sunburst. etc.
A 'Persisted', Widened Holy Storm will surround a 40' radius with 'Holy Water' rain, no SR or save, for 2D6/Rnd (Double damage vs Evil Outsiders).
Gust of Wind will scatter those gaseous Vampires into incoherent atoms!

Could go on, but not sure of your resources/party makeup.

Cheers
Paul H

Navigator
2009-08-05, 05:39 AM
I know you aren't an arcane caster, but if you can manage it, the ability to pop off a few chained command undeads would be awesome for the arcanist in your party.

Ripped Shirt Kirk
2009-08-05, 05:44 AM
Block off all roads except one large, major one. Consecrate one easily defendible building, and cast all sorts of buffs and AoE (area of effect) spells on it. Cast grease all over that road, put all the gasoline and flammable material the town has on it, and cast fire ball! Also, make a big cage trap above that road, so when the zombies come and get set on fire, they are also trapped! (Make the church fire retardant!) And, as the final preparation, take all the holy water you can, and gather it into one big pile, and proceed to grind all the garlic you have, and mix it with the holy water. Proceed to soak the entire floor of church with the holy garlic water.

Tyrmatt
2009-08-05, 05:47 AM
This trick came from a compendium of short stories about zombies where a schoolteacher had barricaded herself inside (with a group of detoothed zombie kids, trying to see if there was any person left inside them) and had dug trenches outside filled with gasoline. She had a flare pistol that could ignite the gas when zombies approached, giving her a wall of fire that toasted all but the most persistent of zombies. If you've got the time and some oil you can do likewise and ignite it with a single flaming arrow. Or fill the trench with holy water. Same effect, allows allies to pass through unharmed.

To prevent the water/oil from soaking into the earth, get a large linen cloth (or similar) to line the pit with and have someone cast Grease on it (or even get villagers to seal it up manually with goose fat etc) and place it in the pit before you pour.

Also theoretically, can't any ordained priest "bless" water as holy anyway?
If you really feel like being a smart ass, see if there's any sand nearby, lay a large amount of it out flat about an inch thick and cast Call Lightening. Instant giant mirror for anti-vamp defenses at each house. Cut and distribute as necessary.

If ranged attacks aren't a major issue against weak militia types, outfit them with a bandoleer of holy water vials and cast Air Walk on them. Have them run around above trains of undead pouring holy water on them. 10 min/level durations gives you nearly 2 hours of what can be basically be a bucket chain from a roof. Dump the water, run back to the rooftop of villagers who hand them another one.

Since you'll be setting up the ranger with disruption on his weapons that burns one of your fifth level spells. I'd suggest keeping the spare for a casting of True Seeing because there will be some trickery at work here and you may need to understand what is happening very quickly to save the day. If not, summon up some Lantern Archons with SM V and have them fly above the battle blasting away.

I'm assuming from your DM saying "No" to plot destruction the phylactery is meant to be recovered so don't risk yourself unnecessarily to protect it. Save the villagers instead.

And if the player picks a sorc, grease the hell out of every major path. Play Yakkety Sax for a +2 circumstance bonus. :p

Fizban
2009-08-05, 08:02 AM
I know you aren't an arcane caster, but if you can manage it, the ability to pop off a few chained command undeads would be awesome for the arcanist in your party.

Oh jeeze, this. This, so, much. :smallamused:

Don't bother using the spell Grease, it has a horrible duration for this kind of thing. Plain old lard lasts for hours with the exact same effect.

Holy Water is not in fact easy to get, it requires a 2nd level spell and 25gp per flask to make. You aren't getting a moat or bucket brigade, period. Basic fortifications like barricades are a given but you don't have time for much else.

On the subject of summoning, I'd seriously consider calling a Lesser Planar Ally. It'd be expensive, and cost a bit of xp, but you're short handed as it is. A Hound Archon is a strong melee presence with DR 10/evil, which should make it nearly unkillable by mooks. It can also cast Aid at will granting +1 attack and 1d8+6 temporary hp for 6 minutes, which is likely more than 3 times the hp they had to begin with. The Aid battery alone could keep several peasants fighting indefinitely while it soaks AoOs with DR and takes AoOs at anything that tries to run past it to get at the peasants. If you call it the day of it's only 3,000gp for 10 hours of service, possibly at a discount since you're protecting an innocent village.

A Movanic Deva from Field Folio (updated to 3.5, fully legal) is frankly insane. The same DR 10/evil with a slew of spell like abilities, including but not limited to: Aid, Consecrate, Death Ward, and Protection From Arrows at will, Cure Serious Wounds 3/day, and Raise Dead 1/day. The Hound Archon was good, but this takes the cake and blesses it. Same Lesser Planar Ally spell, cost 10 minutes, 100xp, 3,000gp.

So, I officially update my strategy to: prepare Holy Storm a few times, and cast Planar Ally to bring a Movanic Deva or three to save your butts. That's really all you need.

Also: did you tie a spell to that Hallow? I'd ask how applying Aid would work: recast when someone enters, cast 1/day, cast every round, cast 1/hallowing, etc. If it can affect people multiple times, there's another source of free hp for your commoners.

Lysander
2009-08-05, 09:23 AM
Community Domain also grants Telepathic Bond at 5th level. That could be useful if your party and npc allies are going to be in separate places. You'd have to pick which 3 people to include.

What does the Tyranny domain grant?

Sipex
2009-08-05, 10:28 AM
I don't have any suggestions about defending from the undead but I do have a warning many will probably agree with. Your DM sounds kind of like a jerk, he's using his ooc knowledge to influence the game and he's restrictive.

That said, expect him to send in a strong, living enemy (or maybe several) to route all your best defenses. Have someone prepared for specifically this.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 10:51 AM
Also: did you tie a spell to that Hallow? I'd ask how applying Aid would work: recast when someone enters, cast 1/day, cast every round, cast 1/hallowing, etc. If it can affect people multiple times, there's another source of free hp for your commoners.

I tied Death Ward to the hallow, to keep the Sorc // Archivist and Ranger safe from all undead effects. It also protects them from vampiric domination, which I know the DM is fond of.
I can only cast one hallow, due to time constraints - so i'll be having to keep everyone else (me, the warlock and the rogue/favoured soul) safe with my own spell slots.



1) Hire a Radiant Servant of Pelor who can cast Sunburst. Yes it does have SR, but 160' Radius!

Pelor does not exist in this campaign world. Furthermore, I doubt I could afford / The DM would let me hire such an NPC, either because they do not exist, or because he wouldn't want this to happen to his undead.



<Movanic Deva Suggestion>

I love these. I'll try to get some on the field. My DM may ban it, either 'cause he doesn't like the book, or he thinks it'd be too easy.

Else i'll just summon MM celestials.


<Various Holy Water Suggestions>

I really don't have the money nor the time to produce any significant quantities of holy water.
I could potentially create between 10 and 20 vials, depending on whether or not we have the archivist. But - I think my time, money and spell slots could probably be spent better elsewhere. There are a lot of undead, after all.

I think a few glyphs of warding would work better.


Community Domain also grants Telepathic Bond at 5th level. That could be useful if your party and npc allies are going to be in separate places. You'd have to pick which 3 people to include.

Yeah, I think i'll be preparing Rary's Telepathic Bond. I am also casting Greater Status, so I can know how my friends are feeling, and heal them from a distance.



What does the Tyranny domain grant?
Special Ability:All Enchantment (compulsion) spells you cast are at +2 DC.

1 Command
2 Enthrall
3 Discern Lies
4 Fear
5 Greater Command
6 Quest
7 Bigby's Grasping Hand
8 Mass Charm Monster
9 Dominate Monster

Lord Loss
2009-08-05, 11:38 AM
Doesnt Good Intentions + Tyrant = Neutal Alignement?

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 11:49 AM
Doesnt Good Intentions + Tyrant = Neutal Alignement?

No, the tyranny domain links in with my character's purpose in the town. Which is to be an enforcer and to provide services to the local lord. I have good intentions, and I use my powers to enforce the law. I'm NG, so... the Neutrality on the Law - Chaos axis reflects my willingness to use magical compulsion to achieve my goodly aims.

Lysander
2009-08-05, 11:53 AM
This isn't effective against undead, but try to have ways of putting out any fires that start. Instead of entering the the church your enemy might just try to burn it down with you inside.

Also, Consecrate has a 20 hour duration for you and is only a 2nd level spell. You could theoretically cast it in four different places eight hours before you pray to regain spells, start the day of battle with all your 2nd level slots ready, and still have 12 hours left of the consecrate effect left from yesterday. If you can time it right this might extend for a few hours into the battle. And you can always cast new consecrates if you need more time. While consecrate is most effective at the church, the more places covered the better if it isn't using up that day's slots.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 12:03 PM
This isn't effective against undead, but try to have ways of putting out any fires that start. Instead of entering the the church your enemy might just try to burn it down with you inside.

Also, Consecrate has a 20 hour duration for you and is only a 2nd level spell. You could theoretically cast it in four different places eight hours before you pray to regain spells, start the day of battle with all your 2nd level slots ready, and still have 12 hours left of the consecrate effect left from yesterday. If you can time it right this might extend for a few hours into the battle. And you can always cast new consecrates if you need more time. While consecrate is most effective at the church, the more places covered the better if it isn't using up that day's slots.

I've a rod of the metamagic that allows me to extend the duration of spells also, and i'm able to apply it to divine spells...so, I could do that quite well o_O thanks!

Lysander
2009-08-05, 02:41 PM
Sweet. Consecrated areas for everybody!

There's one thing to think about though. Your DM might not intend for you to win. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomedHometown)

The enemies coming your way might be so numerous or so powerful no victory is possible, regardless of how well you plan. So consider evacuating some people beforehand, get all your supplies ready should you need to run, and have a way out for you and as many Npcs as possible.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 03:12 PM
We cannot evacuate, we have to defend the Arcanist's guild whilst they destroy the phylactery, also - there is nowhere we can go and build sufficient defense in time to both outrun the undead AND survive. They would catch up with us. We have a better chance of survival in this town.

There are no towns within sufficient distance, and the only land route out is through swamp like areas full of tainted creatures. The only way out would be by sea, and the undead lie that way. Also - we lack sufficient boats to try that method.

Losing the town would result in our deaths, unless some sort of deus ex machina occured and we were saved. Which would be lame.

Lysander
2009-08-05, 03:35 PM
We cannot evacuate, we have to defend the Arcanist's guild whilst they destroy the phylactery

Who is defending them while you hold the church and the lord's house? Or are you counting on them protecting themselves, being powerful magicians?

Maybe your strategy could involve staged retreats, holding one site and killing as many undead possible until it's overrun, then heading to the next defensive site. If so, the arcanist's guild would have to be where you make your last stand. Unless they can perform their ritual in the lord's house maybe.

What will you do if the entire enemy force only attacks one building and not the other? A smart enemy leader might completely ignore the church.

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 03:57 PM
Who is defending them while you hold the church and the lord's house? Or are you counting on them protecting themselves, being powerful magicians?

Maybe your strategy could involve staged retreats, holding one site and killing as many undead possible until it's overrun, then heading to the next defensive site. If so, the arcanist's guild would have to be where you make your last stand. Unless they can perform their ritual in the lord's house maybe.

What will you do if the entire enemy force only attacks one building and not the other? A smart enemy leader might completely ignore the church.

They're defending their own tower with some sort of anti-undead ubermagic, I believe.

Staged retreats is the plan, I think. We'll be starting off at the docks, where the undead are coming from, I think... if my divination was right.

They'll be doing the ritual in their guild, unfortunately.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-05, 03:59 PM
They're defending their own tower with some sort of anti-undead ubermagic, I believe.

Staged retreats is the plan, I think. We'll be starting off at the docks, where the undead are coming from, I think... if my divination was right.

They'll be doing the ritual in their guild, unfortunately.

Why don't you move everyone into one building or area? You can still run interference on the advancing undead, but it makes your defence of the phylactery much better.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-05, 04:05 PM
When someone mentions Terry Pratchet, they win. When they do so in a manner that only someone who reads TP would get, they doublewin.

You mean like this?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/motivator845eb9a3f96046fe2303c73539.jpg

vampire2948
2009-08-05, 04:05 PM
Why don't you move everyone into one building or area? You can still run interference on the advancing undead, but it makes your defence of the phylactery much better.

There's not a building large enough. But I'll think about the moving people into one area plan. It's possible.. not sure if our DM will allow it, though.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-05, 06:32 PM
You mean like this?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/motivator845eb9a3f96046fe2303c73539.jpg

I'm ashamed of myself. I had to Wikipedia that. D:

Johel
2009-08-06, 04:31 AM
We cannot evacuate, we have to defend the Arcanist's guild whilst they destroy the phylactery, also - there is nowhere we can go and build sufficient defense in time to both outrun the undead AND survive. They would catch up with us. We have a better chance of survival in this town.

There are no towns within sufficient distance, and the only land route out is through swamp like areas full of tainted creatures. The only way out would be by sea, and the undead lie that way. Also - we lack sufficient boats to try that method.

Losing the town would result in our deaths, unless some sort of deus ex machina occured and we were saved. Which would be lame.

Wait... You have a full guild of wizards who can cast anti-undead spells and that can destroy the phylactery ? :smalleek:

That's new...

vampire2948
2009-08-06, 04:32 AM
Wait... You have a full guild of wizards who can cast anti-undead spells and that can destroy the phylactery ? :smalleek:

That's new...

I'm fairly sure I mentioned that before.

But the DM isn't letting us get them to help us, despite one of the PCs being the guild leader. [he's not playing in this session, since he's busy leading the ritual.] So they are largely irrelevant to the defense plans.

Random832
2009-08-06, 05:31 AM
But the DM isn't letting us get them to help us, despite one of the PCs being the guild leader. [he's not playing in this session, since he's busy leading the ritual.] So they are largely irrelevant to the defense plans.

Well, what you said before was "We cannot destroy the Phylactery. We tried. It has plot armour or something." Now it's apparent that it's not actually indestructible; the DM just wants its destruction to happen at the same time as the invasion, to provide drama. My suggestion: Bring a set of model trains to the next session, see if he can take a hint.

vampire2948
2009-08-06, 05:50 AM
Well, what you said before was "We cannot destroy the Phylactery. We tried. It has plot armour or something." Now it's apparent that it's not actually indestructible; the DM just wants its destruction to happen at the same time as the invasion, to provide drama. My suggestion: Bring a set of model trains to the next session, see if he can take a hint.

Sorry - I meant 'We, the players, cannot destroy the phylactery.'

We spent about 5 minutes casting spells at it and hitting it with everything we had, it all just bounced off or got absorbed.
Also - it kept radiating negative energy and hurting us.

The destruction of the phylactery will happen when the DM wants it to. We, the players, have no power over when that occurs.. fun.

Model trains? That's a good idea. I've got some somwhere...


Vampire2948,

Dixieboy
2009-08-06, 06:10 AM
Also:
Whenever the phylactery is mentioned you make "Chu chu" noises.

Lysander
2009-08-06, 09:25 AM
Well good luck, let us know how it goes.

Random832
2009-08-06, 09:29 AM
On the plus side, since the DM has already made up his mind on what is "dramatically appropriate", you don't have to worry about defending the town. It will be something like it seems like all is lost (no matter how well you prepare, all your initial defenses will be defeated) and then at the last minute you manage to save the day, all without any actual work on your part as players. You literally can't lose - the DM's not going to let you.

If you're on rails you might as well enjoy the ride.

vampire2948
2009-08-06, 09:36 AM
On the plus side, since the DM has already made up his mind on what is "dramatically appropriate", you don't have to worry about defending the town. It will be something like it seems like all is lost (no matter how well you prepare, all your initial defenses will be defeated) and then at the last minute you manage to save the day, all without any actual work on your part as players. You literally can't lose - the DM's not going to let you.

If you're on rails you might as well enjoy the ride.

Ah, see, it's not like that, well, maybe it is.
He'll let some players die, and do everything make sure others live.
I'm likely on the acceptable losses list. Whereas the sorceror//archivist probably isn't, due to being his girlfriend... the rogue and the warlock are also unlikely to be allowed to die.

The plot won't fail, as you said, whatever happens. Even if Celestials have to suddenly appear to save their God's martyred follower (my corpse).

Anyway... I'll let you know how we do. My cleric should do rather well, due to being full to the brim of anti-undead tricks.


Well good luck, let us know how it goes.

I certainly shall. The game won't be for another week or so, though.

Thanks for everyone's help on this matter! Please post more if you have any fun ideas.

Johel
2009-08-06, 10:13 AM
On the plus side, since the DM has already made up his mind on what is "dramatically appropriate", you don't have to worry about defending the town. It will be something like it seems like all is lost (no matter how well you prepare, all your initial defenses will be defeated) and then at the last minute you manage to save the day, all without any actual work on your part as players. You literally can't lose - the DM's not going to let you.

If you're on rails you might as well enjoy the ride.

Sound like real metagaming and genre savy, here.
"-Hey, guys !! Good news !! We can't destroy the phylactery. Know what that means ?"
"-We are screwed ?"
"-Nooo !! It means we'll destroy it LATTER, at the right moment of drama, when its owner will come. So, we don't need to botter about the townsmen, they'll be fine...mostly. Half will die but hey !! They'll die either ways so why exhaust ourselves to increase their chances if it's useless ?"
"-Because we are heroes ?"
"-Rethorical... Nan, I say we sit at the wizard tower's last floor, take a sip at a fresh drink and enjoy the show."
"-But...the lich...the phylactery and..."
"-Wizards will do it."

Lysander
2009-08-06, 11:46 AM
Ah, see, it's not like that, well, maybe it is.
He'll let some players die, and do everything make sure others live.
I'm likely on the acceptable losses list. Whereas the sorceror//archivist probably isn't, due to being his girlfriend... the rogue and the warlock are also unlikely to be allowed to die.

Hey, worst case scenario just Plane Shift outta there along with the seven players/townsfolk you like the most. I hear Mount Celestia is nice this time of year.

vampire2948
2009-08-06, 11:49 AM
Hey, worst case scenario just Plane Shift outta there along with the seven players/townsfolk you like the most. I hear Mount Celestia is nice this time of year.

Can't cast plane-shift, unfortunately. Else i'd consider it..

My God might be a little annoyed that I abandoned the community i'm meant o be taking care of, though. But hey, I can take a level in Samurai, then /ritual suicide. Problems solved.

Meh :smallbiggrin:

UserClone
2009-08-06, 11:58 AM
Ah, seppuku. The only part of taking Samurai levels that makes sense.

cdrcjsn
2009-08-06, 07:34 PM
Ah, seppuku. The only part of taking Samurai levels that makes sense.

I recall when the cleric Command spell used to be "force creature to take an action that can be described in one word". Normally, people used it for jump, flee, cower, etc.

But there was that one race in the campaign world that had a verb for commit suicide (seppuku). The cleric had a field day when they had to fight them.

Random832
2009-08-06, 07:36 PM
Um, wouldn't a command to "die" have that effect?

Lysander
2009-08-06, 08:34 PM
I recall when the cleric Command spell used to be "force creature to take an action that can be described in one word". Normally, people used it for jump, flee, cower, etc.

But there was that one race in the campaign world that had a verb for commit suicide (seppuku). The cleric had a field day when they had to fight them.

Technically all you can do is order people to approach, drop, fall, flee, or halt. I mean, Command is a level 1 spell. If Dominate Person can't make people commit suicide Command definitely shouldn't be able to.

Speaking of mind-control spells, do you have a plan to deal with any Dominated people the vampires command to fight you? They can't control them in the Hallowed area but they can anywhere else. You might end up having to fight some of that town guard. But you have a lot of mental spells you can use to ward off mind-controlled allies without killing them.

vampire2948
2009-08-07, 05:43 AM
Speaking of mind-control spells, do you have a plan to deal with any Dominated people the vampires command to fight you? They can't control them in the Hallowed area but they can anywhere else. You might end up having to fight some of that town guard. But you have a lot of mental spells you can use to ward off mind-controlled allies without killing them.

I can just cast Protection from Evil on people. It doesn't stop the domination, but it prevents them being ordered to do anything through it. Which is kinda the same thing.

If they get around that somehow, I can just command them, tie them up and toss them in the Hallow - Then deal with it later.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-07, 06:06 AM
I can just cast Protection from Evil on people. It doesn't stop the domination, but it prevents them being ordered to do anything through it. Which is kinda the same thing.

If they get around that somehow, I can just command them, tie them up and toss them in the Hallow - Then deal with it later.

You'd be better off casting magic circle against evil, I think, and then just keeping them with you until you're sure they're safe. After all, once they're within the area of the spell after they start to attack you...

Skjaldbakka
2009-08-07, 06:17 AM
Garlic, Vampires will not be able to approach.

Actually, per the book, it says vampires won't enter an area with garlic, not that they can't enter an area with garlic.

Also, in my experience, vampires and their weaknesses are one of the most common things for a DM to handwave and/or rewrite, because as written, they are made of fail.

vampire2948
2009-08-07, 06:38 AM
Actually, per the book, it says vampires won't enter an area with garlic, not that they can't enter an area with garlic.

Also, in my experience, vampires and their weaknesses are one of the most common things for a DM to handwave and/or rewrite, because as written, they are made of fail.

Our DM most likely won't allow us to use mirrors, garlic, or strategically placed private human dwellings to our advantage.
He has already removed the running water weakness.

gibbo88
2009-08-07, 07:50 PM
He's making the Vampires above their CR, ask for extra experience! At the risk of bringing up that god-awful movie/book starting with T hes killing the whole Vampire thing they have going on...

"Oh no! A legal way to make my vampires harder for me to get where I want them!"

As previously said "chu chu"

Lysander
2009-08-09, 09:23 PM
Our DM most likely won't allow us to use mirrors, garlic, or strategically placed private human dwellings to our advantage.
He has already removed the running water weakness.

If anything, the holy symbol rule should still apply. Anyone can repel a vampire using a holy symbol, whether they're a cleric or not. Even a level 1 commoner. Encourage the town guard to all wear one.


A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Speaking of the town guard, any chance to give their archers silver tipped arrows specifically to kill vampires?

Also, not to focus too much on vampires, are there other kinds of undead you could be hit? Mummies? Spectres? Shadows?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-08-10, 12:52 AM
Last time someone asked for help defending a town from a zombie horde, along with other things, the pillar of good for these boards was revealed as SCS's DM. Who knows? Maybe your DM is the pillar of evil? :smalltongue:

Chu chu...

vampire2948
2009-08-21, 04:26 PM
Hey guys,

Well, had the adventure today.
Seems all my preperations were for nothing.

Before the adventure started, I reminded him of the various things I did - Hallow, Glyphs of Warding, Lesser Planar Ally...

He grinned, told me 'I missed something' when I told him about the hallow.
... a few minutes later, after diving for my PHB and looking up the spell, and concluding that nothing a generalist undead attack force would have could take down the hallow in less than one hour, I concluded that he had no idea what he was talking about, or was doing something stupid.

Oh, and then he told me that he'd rather I didn't summon stuff.. great.. just me, on my own, no shiny hound archons to back me up, and limited Turn Undead uses

So. Started the adventure.

We began on the sea front, myself and the sorceror placed walls of good, and a wall of fire [positive energy subsitution] across the port wall.

Then the DM got annoyed and decided to ban positive energy substution.

So... we lost that. And then he decided that the walls had a gap underneath them, so we fought a few totally unburnt waves of ghouls.

This went on for a while, and eventually I got a little bored and decided we'd attack the undead ships ourselves. So we flew over, fought stuff... somehow, almost every undead we fought had some method of flying up to attack us. Which kinda made our flying ranged strafing of the ships a little.. meh.

So, after a while, our walls went down, and the ships moved towards the shore and attacked. We stayed near the ships for a while, trying to hurt the stuff on them before they got off... and then split up [S]to look for clues to defend parts of the town [as our DM wanted us to..].

Myself and the Warlock went to defend the local church, and the ranger and sorceror went off to defend the local lord's house.

But then... the DM announced that the hallow effect that I spent 24 hrs casting was no longer working. For unexplained reasons. So.. I asked why, and he didn't tell me. [Turns out, he'd had invisible vampires place invisible magic items from an obscure sourcebook in the exact locations that the two groups were headed for. Which also knocked out any buffs i'd cast on them that day.]

So... we spent an hour or two fighting wave after wave of undead. Nothing of which was a challenge... the warlock left at one point, and insisted that she take her sheet with her... so... was just me by myself. Great. But my cleric managed, despite having to heal using the Greater Status spell, constantly.

Anyway, that happened. And the DM got kinda annoyed that we were all immune to paralysis and such.

The ships, btw, were actually weird undead golem things, and one of them came towards me. So I buffed up with a scroll of visage of the deity, divine power, divine favour... all that stuff. And prepared to fight.

But then a stained glass golem that protects the church, which I hadn't been told about up till then, decided to burst out and fight it instead of me... so... that was anti-climactic.

My cleric kept on chewing through the undead, and fought a vampire, which I turned. At one point I had to cast true seeing for something, and saw the odd skull thing that was blocking my buffs in that part of town, so I killed it.

The vampire then rushed off to join a friend and attack the other group. The ranger died, and the sorceror had used magic jar and rope trick, and was hiding and possessing random vampire spawn and such.

I used hide from undead on a few of the villagers left in the church, and used a scroll of dimension door to teleport to them quickly [since greater status told me they were in trouble].

The vampires were invisible, so I turned on true seeing again.. I asked if I could see another weird skull thing, but he said it was upstairs, or otherwise out of reach... no hallow for me.
I cast Enlarge Person [ I'm a half giant, so I was acting like a huge creature, which was interesting] and beat the crap out of both the vampires after a little while.. one of them escaped, since it cast Deep Slumber on me, and they somehow stole the ranger corpse using invisible vampire spawn.

Once both the vampires were dead, the rest of the undead stopped really being much of a threat, and we cleared them up 'off-panel.'

Victory.

You asked for a report, that's what happened. I resisted the urge to make choo choo noises.

My part of the game once we split up was run by a Co-DM, who unfortunately didn't know the rules too well [not his fault. the other guy didn't make sure he did... or really tell him about what the undead that had been statted out for him could do.]


Vampire2948,

RandomNPC
2009-08-21, 06:16 PM
my only question is what books got energy sub positive in it? my books only got cold, fire, acid, and shocky, not even sonic.

your true method of fighting them should have been setting all the villagers to dig a moat halfway through the city so when the docks were invaded you could have burnt down the side of town closer. (at that point the DM would have said the mage guild was on that side of town)

and i second "choo choo" (third? fifth? twentyseventh?)

vampire2948
2009-08-21, 08:38 PM
The villagers were completely unable to do anything useful. I suggested that we might train them a little to help us fight, with bows or something.. but teh DM just ignored me.

Anyway.. thread closed, I guess ^_^ thanks for all the comments guys.

sofawall
2009-08-21, 09:28 PM
Hmm...

"You have ways of killing/inconveniencing undead that don't involve hitting them on the head over and over? Sorry, banz0rd. Oh, you have clever uses of spells? I'll make something up and tell you it's from an obscure splatbook. Banz0rd for the fight. Oh, you think you're going to get to fight awesome boss fight? No, golem. Oh, and choo choo."

AlexanderRM
2009-08-21, 10:32 PM
I recall when the cleric Command spell used to be "force creature to take an action that can be described in one word". Normally, people used it for jump, flee, cower, etc.

But there was that one race in the campaign world that had a verb for commit suicide (seppuku). The cleric had a field day when they had to fight them.

I seem to remember such a spell where a command to commit suicide wouldn't work...? Or maybe it was just that a command to "die" made it go into a coma for the duration of the spell, and suicide wasn't mentioned.





strategically placed private human dwellings


^MADE OF WIN.^







You asked for a report, that's what happened. I resisted the urge to make choo choo noises.


Yeah, I was thinking about that throughout the whole thing. You should have just listened to the people saying "it's a railroad so don't bother doing anything".

As Sofawall said...



"You have ways of killing/inconveniencing undead that don't involve hitting them on the head over and over? Sorry, banz0rd. Oh, you have clever uses of spells? I'll make something up and tell you it's from an obscure splatbook. Banz0rd for the fight. Oh, you think you're going to get to fight awesome boss fight? No, golem. Oh, and choo choo."

Random832
2009-08-21, 10:54 PM
So where do you go from here? Just deal with this crap again and again? Quit and get a new group? Get someone else to DM? Tell him the internets said he sucks at DMing?

AslanCross
2009-08-21, 11:29 PM
Kinda sad that a climactic and epic session degenerated into a banfest. <_< Here's some more coal for your DM's boiler.

Lysander
2009-08-22, 01:40 AM
That was pretty lame. I guess you're lucky your DM didn't decide to inform you that you suddenly weren't a cleric, you were actually a third level commoner. And you're naked. And you've just been eating by a zombie dragon.

vampire2948
2009-08-22, 09:56 AM
That was pretty lame. I guess you're lucky your DM didn't decide to inform you that you suddenly weren't a cleric, you were actually a third level commoner. And you're naked. And you've just been eating by a zombie dragon.

Well, I was playing a Cleric because everything else I rolled up was considered a little too powerful, it seems..


Yeah, I was thinking about that throughout the whole thing. You should have just listened to the people saying "it's a railroad so don't bother doing anything".

Meh... I considered just hiding underground or something, and healing the rest of the party occasionally through my greater status spell - which was the only reason that any of us apart from myself survived that adventure.



So where do you go from here? Just deal with this crap again and again? Quit and get a new group? Get someone else to DM? Tell him the internets said he sucks at DMing?

There's another guy in my group who wants to try DMing, he's more into the whole RPing side of things. I'm playing a Marshal for his campaign, btw. That should be more fun, and will occur after this one ends. [1-2 more sessions]
I'd like to get a new group.. but I can't find another one within an acceptable distance of where I live. Trying to make a new one currently.


Thanks for the replies again, guys :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone
2009-08-22, 04:51 PM
Invisible Vampires!

Woodsman
2009-08-22, 04:57 PM
Your DM sounds kind of jerky (Invisible magic items placed by invisible vampires in areas you are specifically going to defend is... Well, I dunno).

I wish I'd contributed earlier. I'd have said "Use Lightbringer variants from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft."

A friend o' mine is running that game. A player of his is using those variants. We refer to his character as "The Nuke-rowave".

vampire2948
2009-08-22, 05:27 PM
Your DM sounds kind of jerky (Invisible magic items placed by invisible vampires in areas you are specifically going to defend is... Well, I dunno).

I wish I'd contributed earlier. I'd have said "Use Lightbringer variants from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft."

A friend o' mine is running that game. A player of his is using those variants. We refer to his character as "The Nuke-rowave".

That'd have been nice.. but.. my DM forced me to play a pure Cleric. I had other plans at first.. but he doesn't seem to like me having free will.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-22, 05:29 PM
That'd have been nice.. but.. my DM forced me to play a pure Cleric. I had other plans at first.. but he doesn't seem to like me having free will.

This might sound harsh, but there's little point playing a game you aren't enjoying. If there's only 2 weeks to go then it's easy to stick this out, but I think you should discuss things with this guy if he ever starts to DM again. The feeling I get is that he takes impersonal or objective criticism as an insult though, so perhaps this would result in a problem.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-22, 06:16 PM
Also, if you're having trouble finding players in the area you live, might I suggest not looking in the area you live? Try the intarwebz. There's plenty of Yahoo groups and gaming websites that run groups facilitated by virtual tabletop software. We've got some in the unofficial IRC channel as well. I can give details, if you like.

vampire2948
2009-08-22, 06:24 PM
This might sound harsh, but there's little point playing a game you aren't enjoying. If there's only 2 weeks to go then it's easy to stick this out, but I think you should discuss things with this guy if he ever starts to DM again. The feeling I get is that he takes impersonal or objective criticism as an insult though, so perhaps this would result in a problem.

Your feeling is correct. I have talked to him about this before.


Also, if you're having trouble finding players in the area you live, might I suggest not looking in the area you live? Try the intarwebz. There's plenty of Yahoo groups and gaming websites that run groups facilitated by virtual tabletop software. We've got some in the unofficial IRC channel as well. I can give details, if you like.

I do that already, thank you for the offer. I just prefer real-life D&D, usually.

Superglucose
2009-08-22, 06:27 PM
Flood the town. Vamps can't live in moving water.

vampire2948
2009-08-22, 06:37 PM
Flood the town. Vamps can't live in moving water.

Yeah, our DM decided that vampires no longer care about running water.

TMC
2009-08-22, 06:46 PM
Yeeeah...your DM sounds like a bit of a jerk. I mean, honestly, it's one thing to make a challenging Campaign, but when you start to breach the realms of suspension of disbelief, you have a problem.

Talk to him. He needs to shape up.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-22, 06:48 PM
Yeeeah...your DM sounds like a bit of a jerk. I mean, honestly, it's one thing to make a challenging Campaign, but when you start to breach the realms of suspension of disbelief, you have a problem.

Talk to him. He needs to shape up.

Do it in song:

You'd better shape up (Oh Oh Oh)
Cause I need a game (Oh Oh Oh)
And it must obey the rules (Oh Oh Oh)
(it must obey the rules)
You'd better shape up (Oh Oh Oh)
You'd better understand (Oh Oh Oh)
Your DM fiat is for fools (Oh Oh Oh)

vampire2948
2009-08-22, 07:01 PM
Yeeeah...your DM sounds like a bit of a jerk. I mean, honestly, it's one thing to make a challenging Campaign, but when you start to breach the realms of suspension of disbelief, you have a problem.

Talk to him. He needs to shape up.

That would be ineffective. I've talked to him before about various other DM-related stuff.

I'll try the song. Thank you.

technophile
2009-08-22, 07:15 PM
Your DM is a complete ass. :( I know what you mean about live D&D being better, but man... from how you're describing it I'd rather DM for myself than play in his game.



Um, wouldn't a command to "die" have that effect?
No, IIRC the spell's entry specifically said that Commanding creatures to die merely caused them to fall unconscious for a period of time.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-22, 07:18 PM
That would be ineffective. I've talked to him before about various other DM-related stuff.

I'll try the song. Thank you.

Don't. Don't try the song. :smalltongue:

JonestheSpy
2009-08-22, 08:11 PM
Don't. Don't try the song. :smalltongue:

Try the song! Try the song!

Oh, and let me just be a little snarky and suggest that maybe the DM is deliberately making things difficult to compensate for the fact that players are going online and asking for strategic advice that their characters would have no access to, instead of just figuring out the challenges themselves...?

technophile
2009-08-22, 08:27 PM
Oh, and let me just be a little snarky and suggest that maybe the DM is deliberately making things difficult to compensate for the fact that players are going online and asking for strategic advice that their characters would have no access to, instead of just figuring out the challenges themselves...?

Any 10th level PC is going to have a wealth of knowledge not available to the general player; a 10th level fighter will presumably know vastly more about tactics than any of us not specifically trained in such things. I don't see any problem with players asking such questions online; any in-game specific knowledge (such as vampires being affected by silver) would naturally require either direct experience or a successful Knowledge roll, but for more general things like "what are some effective ways to defend a town against an undead army", asking online is a reasonable substitute for historical research, personal knowledge (acquired "behind the scenes"), etc.

Also, in this case the DM was clearly metagaming (by denying the players any chance to destroy the phylactery themselves, for example) before the OP asked his question.

Finally, players asking questions online doesn't justify being a ****, even if you think they shouldn't do so. The simpler, better approach would be to talk with your players and agree on ways for the player to gain similar knowledge in an approved manner (such as by having the character make Knowledge rolls etc).

JonestheSpy
2009-08-22, 09:35 PM
Okay, sorry if it was too snarky, but it does seem to be that the OP is doing some serious metagaming as well as the DM. Is it as bad as the DM's antics? Dunno. If I was running a game I might be a little annoyed if the players show up with all these optimized, fancy moves that they never would have thought of last game session. Is that more or less obnoxious than invisible vampires?

Doesn't mean the DM in question isn't being a jerk, but as I DM more than I play I can't help seeing the situation from that side of the screen.

Being a high level fighter doesn't mean you know seige tactics, it means you know how to kill things and not get killed while doing it. If you the player have studied medieval siege warfare, then ideally you should either justify your character having that knowledge or just roleplay your ignorance. Likewise, if your character has 20 ranks in Profession(Seige Engineer) but you yourself can't tell a ballista from a trebuchet, your DM should the situation to take the character' expertise into account. But being high level doesn't count for anything.

Really, what's happening here is the equivalent of the character having the combined expertise of multiple incredibly experienced adventurers on call - most folks here have gamed a lot, are very familar with rules optimization, and have played multiple characters in different campaigns - in short, they're far more knowledgable than most people in the game world are likely to be.

Is there a book in the town library with equivalent information? Varies according to the campign style of course, but it seems unlikely - depends on how often high level NPC's have defended towns from undead seiges and then recorded their tactics into documents that then made their way into the towns' records - in a world that is presumably without prinitng presses, btw.

Milskidasith
2009-08-22, 10:13 PM
The thing is, a cleric can cast any spell, so it isn't unlikely for a cleric in the game to know that Hallow will hurt undead or substituting the stuff that heals his allies and hurts undead into walls will hurt undead and heal his allies.

Lysander
2009-08-22, 11:33 PM
Yeah. It's one thing for a character to know the contents of the entire monster manual. But understanding their own spell list seems pretty reasonable.

What was this anti-hallow invisible item anyway? I didn't know anything like that existed. I thought the only way to get rid of Hallow was to Unhallow the area.

The problem here isn't that your DM got around your defenses. It's that he dismissed them out of hand. "No. You have no hallow." Bah. Imagine how exciting it would have been if he'd done something like have skeleton manned catapults launch flaming projectiles on your buildings from outside your defenses, forced you to send a strike team to disable them...actually built on your input and figured out a clever counter for you to counter rather than just running the game on autopilot. Worst part is he probably thought the glass golem was doing you a favor. "He will be so grateful not to have to fight"

Mordokai
2009-08-23, 04:07 AM
Well, to be honest, the undead-golem-ship thing sounds pretty awesome :smallsmile: But the way it was resolved is pretty... yeah. All in all, your DM was pretty much acting like a major jerk and perhaps doing some train impression actually wouldn't be a bad idea.

And thanks for describing the battle. You may have lost, but I really like the idea of massive undead battle and it was fun reading some of the ideas suggested. If your DM would play this like it was supposed to(because I doubt he did), it would probably be a memorable battle.

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 05:25 AM
Yeah. It's one thing for a character to know the contents of the entire monster manual. But understanding their own spell list seems pretty reasonable.

What was this anti-hallow invisible item anyway? I didn't know anything like that existed. I thought the only way to get rid of Hallow was to Unhallow the area.

Before the game, when we were talking about my preperations:

Couple of divination spells to work out when and where the undead would attack
Few glyphs of warding scattered over the church for special occasions.
Hallow.

The DM grinned at me and told me 'I'd missed something'... which, apparently, was invisible vampire spawn that I had no way of countering without meta-gaming dropping... a skull thing. I don't remember the name he gave it. I, like you, thought the only way to counter a hallow was to unhallow it.
The item only negated it, when, later, we found and destroyed one of the items, my death ward I cast a few minutes earlier popped up again.
We didn't find the one where I cast hallow.


As for the guy who is talking of my metagaming. I wasn't using any knowledge inappropriate to my character in-game. This thread was largely just meant to see if i'd missed anything big that my character should know.

I didn't do anything silly like flood the town with holy water, or tie garlic to every commoner.

I don't think I actually did anything metagamey. My cleric knows that his spells do due to being a cleric.

EDIT - And as for knowing that the undead would, at some point, attack - It was hinted at strongly in our previous adventure.


And thanks for describing the battle. You may have lost, but I really like the idea of massive undead battle and it was fun reading some of the ideas suggested. If your DM would play this like it was supposed to(because I doubt he did), it would probably be a memorable battle.

We won the adventure.. was that not clear in the description? *goes back and checks*
I'd have liked to fight the golem. I was all set to cast a few buff spells, enlarge myself, and start hitting it with my greatclub.. ah well, I got to fight a few ghouls instead.

Sharkman1231
2009-08-23, 06:35 AM
The DM grinned at me and told me 'I'd missed something'... which, apparently, was invisible vampire spawn that I had no way of countering without meta-gaming dropping... a skull thing. I don't remember the name he gave it. I, like you, thought the only way to counter a hallow was to unhallow it.
The item only negated it, when, later, we found and destroyed one of the items, my death ward I cast a few minutes earlier popped up again.
We didn't find the one where I cast hallow.


I found it! I found it!

Darkskull: 60,000 gp

This skull, carved from ebony, is wholly evil. Wherever the skull goes, the area around it is treated as though an unhallow spell had been cast with the skull as the touched point of origin (except that no additional spell effect is tied or fixed to the darkskull).

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 06:37 AM
I found it! I found it!

Darkskull: 60,000 gp

This skull, carved from ebony, is wholly evil. Wherever the skull goes, the area around it is treated as though an unhallow spell had been cast with the skull as the touched point of origin (except that no additional spell effect is tied or fixed to the darkskull).

Yes, that's the one :smallsmile: Well done!

Hmm... 60k? Ouch. I don't suppose there's a... Lightskull?

Lysander
2009-08-23, 07:25 AM
Yes, that's the one :smallsmile: Well done!

Hmm... 60k? Ouch. I don't suppose there's a... Lightskull?

Wow. Too bad you're a good party. Otherwise you could just grab up the numerous Darkskulls these enemies seem to have and sell them for a fortune.
But I suppose it makes sense that an undead army would have a darkskull or two with them.

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 08:25 AM
Wow. Too bad you're a good party. Otherwise you could just grab up the numerous Darkskulls these enemies seem to have and sell them for a fortune.
But I suppose it makes sense that an undead army would have a darkskull or two with them.

A little sense, I guess. But it is annoying the way they were used.

I wouldn't have minded an undead cleric leader guy walking in, dropping one, and having a boss fight. But invisible vampires that we can't actually stop... meh.

We broke them all.

Lysander
2009-08-23, 08:32 AM
A little sense, I guess. But it is annoying the way they were used.

I wouldn't have minded an undead cleric leader guy walking in, dropping one, and having a boss fight. But invisible vampires that we can't actually stop... meh.

We broke them all.

Yeah. Or imagine if the darkskull was affixed on top of an enemy necromancer's staff.

Just curious, the hallowed area was the noble's house right? So if invisible vampires snuck inside that means the whole "vampires must be invited to enter" rule got thrown out as well.

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 10:16 AM
Yeah. Or imagine if the darkskull was affixed on top of an enemy necromancer's staff.

Just curious, the hallowed area was the noble's house right? So if invisible vampires snuck inside that means the whole "vampires must be invited to enter" rule got thrown out as well.

Hmm... the hallowed area was partially over the house, covering it. And the darkskull was in there too..
So I guess our DM just threw out all the vampire fluff, including running water etc.
Good point.

I'm not sure if that part of the house was a public place or not.

Lamech
2009-08-23, 12:09 PM
If he boosted the vamps they should have got a CR up. And invisible vampires with darkskulls? That seems excessive. The Darkskulls part, and the tossing of the vampire fluff; the lich using his magic was okay. Also why didn't the lich smack you around, even a few fireballs from orbit really high would have been annoying. Or you know fly in to the wizard's ritual and kill them all while they can't do anything?

Lysander
2009-08-23, 01:13 PM
[Turns out, he'd had invisible vampires place invisible magic items from an obscure sourcebook in the exact locations that the two groups were headed for. Which also knocked out any buffs i'd cast on them that day.]

Wait. How did a Darkskull stop your buffs working? All it does is emit an unhallowed area around it. All that should do is make it harder to turn creatures and prevent you from using mind control spells.

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 01:18 PM
Wait. How did a Darkskull stop your buffs working? All it does is emit an unhallowed area around it. All that should do is make it harder to turn creatures and prevent you from using mind control spells.

He said it did.
He doesn't like death ward, apparently.

And I didn't know what the hell this item was... so... I rolled with it.

Lysander
2009-08-23, 03:10 PM
He said it did.
He doesn't like death ward, apparently.

And I didn't know what the hell this item was... so... I rolled with it.

So let me get this straight. It's an item that not only negates hallow, it also suppresses all buff spells in its range that are on all enemies, both preexisting and newly cast spells. And it's not an artifact. And the enemy has a few of them.

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-23, 03:14 PM
So let me get this straight. It's an item that not only negates hallow, it also suppresses all buff spells in its range that are on all enemies, both preexisting and newly cast spells. And it's not an artifact. And the enemy has a few of them.

It's DM fiat. Testing the limits of it has little merit. All the items and tactics of the enemy could be distilled down to, "Whatever I want goes."

Aquillion
2009-08-23, 03:33 PM
Wait. How did a Darkskull stop your buffs working? All it does is emit an unhallowed area around it. All that should do is make it harder to turn creatures and prevent you from using mind control spells.Hallow and Unhallow cancel out, so having the Darkskulls around suppressed his Hallow and, therefore, the buff attached to it.

I don't think that the Darkskulls were that bad -- honestly, hunting for them could have been interesting, and it could have been fun if it was done differently (if the DM really wanted the players to split up, one person could hunt for the Darkskulls.) They just should have been worked in in another fashion, like a traitorous townie. Invisible vampires are a bit... blatant.

Also, I think you would have noticed when your Hallowed area suddenly stopped working... which would have been before the battle, as soon as the darkskulls were brought in.

It sounds, though, like your DM just doesn't like you -- I can't help but notice that you seem to have been split away from the people you said he probably wouldn't want to kill off. Or, to put it more bluntly, he put you in another room so he could play with the people he actually wanted to play with. That's a pretty jerk move for him to pull, but either way, you should probably try and find another group.

Lysander
2009-08-23, 04:05 PM
But was it just the Death Ward effect or all other buffs too?

vampire2948
2009-08-23, 04:46 PM
But was it just the Death Ward effect or all other buffs too?

Just the cleric buffs

I tied Death Ward into the hallow, but also cast it on myself and the Ranger when we went to the port bit to fight.


I don't think that the Darkskulls were that bad -- honestly, hunting for them could have been interesting, and it could have been fun if it was done differently (if the DM really wanted the players to split up, one person could hunt for the Darkskulls.) They just should have been worked in in another fashion, like a traitorous townie. Invisible vampires are a bit... blatant.

That would have been fine, except:

He grinned at me and told me 'I missed something'* right before the session, and he made the hallow effect turn off without any means of us stopping it, or knowing what did it. Since we were at the port, waiting for the invasion at the me

* I don't feel that invisible vampires which I had no way of knowing about or stopping counts as 'missing something' do you?


It sounds, though, like your DM just doesn't like you -- I can't help but notice that you seem to have been split away from the people you said he probably wouldn't want to kill off. Or, to put it more bluntly, he put you in another room so he could play with the people he actually wanted to play with. That's a pretty jerk move for him to pull, but either way, you should probably try and find another group.

Well, in the end, the people he didn't want killed were the ones that died.
I concur with you. But... I'll see how our new DM turns out, he'll be better, I think.