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EleventhHour
2009-08-04, 09:38 AM
If you were looking for the best way to get a massive number of attacks per round, what would it be?

My current build for sheer numbers is...

***

Dervish 10/Warblade 11, with a large number of skill points in Preform.

Thousand Cuts + Raging Mongoose + Speed Enchantment + Time Stands Still + GTWF (Scimitars)

(Full BAB x 2 (TWF) x 2 (TC) x 2 (TSS) + 4 (RM) + 2 (SE) (1 per weapon) (Assuming D&D uses BEDMAS)) = 38 Attacks/round. (For one round)

***

Is there any lower level ways to get as many attacks?
Or what suggestions for a better Attack/Damage bonus if I'm already close to the top?
And, alternatively ; this one has a huge burst of attacks, and then a die-down, is there a happy medium?

I'd prefer not to go over Level 21, and absolutely none of the infinite-loop stuff.

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 09:44 AM
I direct you towards this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0). Apparently they've exceeded million attacks with one full-round action by now. I couldn't do better without using some infinite loops.

EDIT: My best? Well, Ranger 2/Fighter (Targetteer) 1/Barbarian 1/Eternal Blade 10 with Whirling Frenzy+Rapid Shot+Arrow Swarm+Haste Time Stands Still using Eternal Blade's Island in Time on my own turn to Time Stands Still again (using Eternal Training to gain another use of it after the first one) and Belt of Battle for a full-round action for a full attack gets us 4 base attacks, 5 bonus attacks and a total of 5 full-round attacks for a total of 45. Add Splitting Bow to double the number of attack ROLLS we get for 90.

Keld Denar
2009-08-04, 09:45 AM
Totemist/Barbarian/TotemRager/Warblade

Take Whirling Frenzy barb, Multiattack, (Improved) Rapid Strike, Soulbind a bunch of soulmelds that grant bite attacks, gore attacks, claw attacks and whatnot. Then make a full attack with something like Elbow Blades (Complete Scoundrel) and stack ALL of your natural attacks on top of that. For even more lulz, take Illithid Heritage and Illithid Grapple from Complete Psionic for another 4 attacks. Strength Devotion gives you an undefined slam, so you can use that too.

Natural attacks almost ALWAYS beat weapon attacks in numbers...especially when you can add the former to the latter and there is no hard cap on how many 2ndary natural attacks you can have, other than how many you can physically cram into your character!

EleventhHour
2009-08-04, 09:54 AM
I direct you towards this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0). Apparently they've exceeded million attacks with one full-round action by now. I couldn't do better without using some infinite loops.

Oookay... Maybe I should amend it to include ; As many attacks as possible for a humanoid character.

Natural attacks... Hm. And I hadn't thought of using a bow, either. I always knew I wouldn't make it as a munchkin optimizer. :smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2009-08-04, 09:55 AM
I did something like 74 in a theoretical build that did hundreds of damage per attack. It went like Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade 4 (a Psywar with Telekinetic boomerang works as well)/Master Thrower 1/Targetteer Fighter2/Eternal Blade (as much as you can cram).

Palm Throw on turn one, Turn all ranged attacks into melee attacks, use cool points to Stormguard Warrior to net yourself approximately +200 on all damage rolls next round. Round two, use Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still to get a stupid number of attacks. Round 3: Island in Time, either take more attacks or refresh maneuvers and do it again.

Doc Roc
2009-08-04, 10:32 AM
My max is Ni-Infinite using an aptitude+lightning maces build, but that's not what you're really asking for.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 10:39 AM
My max is Ni-Infinite using an aptitude+lightning maces build, but that's not what you're really asking for.

Its not really infinite, right? Each strike with a mace has less than probability 1 of giving you another attack.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-04, 10:40 AM
Humanoid characters can use magic items and grafts, which can grant natural attacks.

You really just have to pick a level of cheese you're comfortable with. I recently built a 16th level character with a mere 8 melee attacks on a charge and honestly in actual play that almost feels like it's too many.

obnoxious
sig

AstralFire
2009-08-04, 11:08 AM
Humanoid characters can use magic items and grafts, which can grant natural attacks.

You really just have to pick a level of cheese you're comfortable with. I recently built a 16th level character with a mere 8 melee attacks on a charge and honestly in actual play that almost feels like it's too many.

obnoxious
sig

That is too many.

Eight attacks in six seconds, geez.

Says the person who made a Dervish build with 22 attacks in 6 seconds.

woodenbandman
2009-08-04, 11:16 AM
Its not really infinite, right? Each strike with a mace has less than probability 1 of giving you another attack.

Actually, since each attack crits on a theoretical 15, and you generate 1 attack per threat and one attack per confirmation, the returns actually give you infinite attacks. It's even possible to have a larger crit range, since you abuse aptitude to apply lightning maces to keen kukris, and can take that 7th level barbarian substitution from the cityscape web enhancement, and levels in disciple of dispater, which apparently gives higher crit range.

Telonius
2009-08-04, 11:23 AM
There's probably some way to do this with Commoner, Chicken-Infested, Quick Draw, and Great Cleave. As long as you can keep dropping chickens, you could go on until you roll a 1. (Maybe call it the Colonel Sanders build? :smallbiggrin:)

Keld Denar
2009-08-04, 11:30 AM
JaronK over on 339 I believe has the most optimial build for Lightning Mace based insanity. I actually wrote MatLab code (only programming language I speak) to run simulations, but due to my complete and utter lack of the MatLab program, I can't run it to test if it even works or if it needs more debugging.

Its not infinite, because according to calculus (yay for bringing calculus into D&D!) as the number of attacks approaches infinity, the probablity of a sufficiently large string of natural 1s to stall it out also goes to infinity. Whether it runs 1 iteration and stalls or 100^100^100 iterations before it stalls out is totally within the cold, uncaring hands of the RNG (Random Number Generator/Gods).

I think I still have the code on my flash drive. If anyone is interested, all you have to do is rename the file from a .txt to a .m and run the script in MatLab. I've always been curious to see if it works...

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 11:58 AM
Actually, since each attack crits on a theoretical 15, and you generate 1 attack per threat and one attack per confirmation, the returns actually give you infinite attacks. It's even possible to have a larger crit range, since you abuse aptitude to apply lightning maces to keen kukris, and can take that 7th level barbarian substitution from the cityscape web enhancement, and levels in disciple of dispater, which apparently gives higher crit range.

You dont get extra attacks from the crit confirmation. It says whenever you roll a threat. Rolling a critical hit on a confirmation does nothing special.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 12:24 PM
You could take a 20th level Totmeist from Magic of Incarnum [21st level doesn't help here] and bind the Manticore Belt to your Totem Chakra. Standard capacity of that is now 6. Have an Incarnum Focus belt and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and you can fit 8 in that meld. Use your capstone ability to make it act as 16 Essentia for a fair amount of rounds 1/day. This is only 16 attacks at a range of 150' and all targets must be within 30'. The advantages are that it is at a range and only takes a standard action to fire. Team up with a Dragonfire Inspiration bard to do some real damage.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-04, 01:20 PM
You dont get extra attacks from the crit confirmation. It says whenever you roll a threat. Rolling a critical hit on a confirmation does nothing special.

I believe he's referring to an ability in the usual Lightning Maces build (whose name/source I forget at the moment) that grants an extra attack on a crit; it's not granted on the confirmation specifically, but rather making the confirmation means you've made a crit and thus triggered that ability.

Tokiko Mima
2009-08-04, 01:25 PM
I recently had a BBEG who was a Master of the Unseen Hand. He liked to Chain Spell telekinesis on as many as 20 targets, and animate them all as weapons using his CL as his BAB. Then he could full attack with them as a standard action, per the MotUH rules.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 01:25 PM
I believe he's referring to an ability in the usual Lightning Maces build (whose name/source I forget at the moment) that grants an extra attack on a crit; it's not granted on the confirmation specifically, but rather making the confirmation means you've made a crit and thus triggered that ability.

Regardless, its still not infinite, because eventually you will get a string of numbers low enough to kill the chain. Its just very large.

Keld Denar
2009-08-04, 01:50 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend of people not noticing my posts...am I slowly turning invisible? Not just here, but like, at work, and when I send text messages and leave voicemails and everything! Maybe I should see a doctor...


Regardless, its still not infinite, because eventually you will get a string of numbers low enough to kill the chain. Its just very large.


Its not infinite, because according to calculus (yay for bringing calculus into D&D!) as the number of attacks approaches infinity, the probablity of a sufficiently large string of natural 1s to stall it out also goes to infinity. Whether it runs 1 iteration and stalls or 100^100^100 iterations before it stalls out is totally within the cold, uncaring hands of the RNG (Random Number Generator/Gods).


We said the exact same thing!

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 01:58 PM
You know, even if you have a good chance of getting another attack with each successful hit, you don't always get a crit threat on every attack. So it will eventually peter out.

ericgrau
2009-08-04, 01:59 PM
I'll bet you could figure out an average either numerically or just from running the program 1000 times and averaging those results.

Forrestfire
2009-08-04, 02:10 PM
A changeling [full BAB class] 4 (or 5... I can't remember whether the BAB requirement on Warshaper is +4 or +5...)/Warshaper 1 can have as many natural attacks at 5th (or 6th) level as you can imagine up (e.g. a bite attack, 2 claws, elbow spikes, tentacle attacks, tail, etc...).

EleventhHour
2009-08-04, 02:13 PM
A changeling [full BAB class] 4 (or 5... I can't remember whether the BAB requirement on Warshaper is +4 or +5...)/Warshaper 1 can have as many natural attacks at 5th (or 6th) level as you can imagine up (e.g. a bite attack, 2 claws, elbow spikes, tentacle attacks, tail, etc...).

Seeing as I just chipped a nail, it made me think of something that a DM would never go with, but you could spend a minute trying to argue.

If one claw gets split down the middle right to the bone that it grows from, is it two claws? And if it is two claws, then what's stopping you from splitting each in half, and having 10 base attacks per hand, before BAB, et cetra. :smalltongue:

Ashtar
2009-08-04, 02:21 PM
If you get the probability of the event out you can use analysis to get the results: Here (http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11315) is an example of calculating the Binomial distribution and probability mass function for the game warhammer 40k. We could do the same here if necessary to calculate the number of attacks before the chain breaks.

Keld Denar
2009-08-04, 02:22 PM
Eh...a lizard man has 3 claws on each "hand". The number of claws is irrelevant. The damage the claw attack does is the composite of each individual claw does.

So, what you are indicating would be similar to a monster that takes Improved Natural Attack to bump his damage die size a bit. A physical manifestation of more damage per attack, but no increase in the actual number of attacks made.

EDIT:
Here is my MatLab code, in case anyone has the program. You can copy it into a .txt file and then rename the extention to .m and run it as a script, or just open the MatLab script editor and copy/paste it in. I had the spacing parsed out nicely for readability, but GitP doesn't like tabbing, but MatLab, unlike other programming languages, doesn't care about tabbing.


[totdmg,totswing]=function(numatt,avgdmg)
p=0;
while numatt > 0;
numatt = numatt - 1; % reduces # of attacks each iteration
p = p + 1;
roll = RNG;
if roll > 8;
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 2; % Change 2 to 3 or 4 if using higher crit multipliers
numatt = numatt + 2; % Generate 2 attacks per crit
else
swing(p) = 1; % Noncrit
end
else
roll = 1+floor(rand*20);
if roll > 1;
swing(p) = 1;
else
swing(p) = 0;
end
end

% This creates an array of 0s, 1s, and 2s, which corresponds to misses, hits, and crits respectively.

totswing = length(swing);
% The length of the variable swing gives the total number of attack rolls made
% as the counter p increases at every iteration.

totdmg = sum(swing) * avgdmg;
% Summing swing will give us the total number of effective hits
% Hits count a 1 effective hit, crits count as 2 effective hits
% Multiplying avgdmg by the sum of hits will give total damage for the run


EDIT2: Guess GitP doesn't mind tabbing afterall. Should be relatively easy to read. Anything after a % on any line is a comment that just kinda describes whats going on.

Krazddndfreek
2009-08-04, 02:28 PM
Fighter 16th; two light Speed weapons, Greater TWF, Slashing Fury.

That's 10 attacks per turn folks!

AstralFire
2009-08-04, 02:29 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend of people not noticing my posts...am I slowly turning invisible? Not just here, but like, at work, and when I send text messages and leave voicemails and everything! Maybe I should see a doctor...

Did somebody hear something?

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 02:30 PM
Fighter 16th; two light Speed weapons, Greater TWF, Slashing Fury.

That's 10 attacks per turn folks!

Speed doesn't stack with itself. You get 9, same as Hasted Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (without Slashing Flurry).

Haven
2009-08-04, 02:30 PM
I've noticed a disturbing trend of people not noticing my posts...am I slowly turning invisible? Not just here, but like, at work, and when I send text messages and leave voicemails and everything! Maybe I should see a doctor...

Don't worry, this is the internet, it's normal. People are tripping over each other to say things like this.

Glimbur
2009-08-04, 02:35 PM
Totemist 16/Fighter 4 with a sword in each hand for 7 attacks, Girallion Arms for 2(?) more, and Lamia Belt claws for 2 more. Throw on Haste and you're at 12... but with rather appalling accuracy.

quick_comment
2009-08-04, 02:39 PM
Totemist 16/Fighter 4 with a sword in each hand for 7 attacks, Girallion Arms for 2(?) more, and Lamia Belt claws for 2 more. Throw on Haste and you're at 12... but with rather appalling accuracy.

Thats ok, just cast wraithstrike

Tokiko Mima
2009-08-04, 02:41 PM
A changeling [full BAB class] 4 (or 5... I can't remember whether the BAB requirement on Warshaper is +4 or +5...)/Warshaper 1 can have as many natural attacks at 5th (or 6th) level as you can imagine up (e.g. a bite attack, 2 claws, elbow spikes, tentacle attacks, tail, etc...).
My DM for my Changeling Warshaper makes me limit this to an extra weapon of each listed type, and I have state when I grow them.

I will say this, tentacles are handy to carry torches with and it freaks the party the heck out when you can declare you spontaneously want a tentacle on any part of your body. It's automatic acid hentai flashbacks for all! :p

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-04, 03:46 PM
Commoner/Fighter2/PsiWar/Warmind5

Chicken Infested with a Spell Component pouch, a spiked chain, Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave, and Sweeping Strike.

With Chicken Infested, you've got a 50% chance of pulling a chicken out instead of whatever you were trying to pull out. With a Spell Component Pouch, pulling components is a free action, and is assumed to always have spell components in it.

You start pulling chickens out at an alarming rate. You swing at a chicken, turn it into a fine red mist, then get a free attack on anything in reach. But since you killed the chicken, you get a free attack from Power Attack, which you use to kill another chicken.

As pulling chickens is a free action, you can do it an infinite number of times per round, thus you have an infinite number of attacks per round.

Flickerdart
2009-08-04, 04:44 PM
Commoner/Fighter2/PsiWar/Warmind5

Chicken Infested with a Spell Component pouch, a spiked chain, Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave, and Sweeping Strike.

With Chicken Infested, you've got a 50% chance of pulling a chicken out instead of whatever you were trying to pull out. With a Spell Component Pouch, pulling components is a free action, and is assumed to always have spell components in it.

You start pulling chickens out at an alarming rate. You swing at a chicken, turn it into a fine red mist, then get a free attack on anything in reach. But since you killed the chicken, you get a free attack from Power Attack, which you use to kill another chicken.

As pulling chickens is a free action, you can do it an infinite number of times per round, thus you have an infinite number of attacks per round.
Great Cleave, you mean, now Power Attack. The OP also said he wanted a finite number, not a loop.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-04, 04:55 PM
That is too many.

Eight attacks in six seconds, geez.

Says the person who made a Dervish build with 22 attacks in 6 seconds.

In game play it is simply because it can bog the game down a little, especially with temporary buffs. Realistically I think 6 seconds can be a long time when someone is trying to kill you.

obnoxious
sig

Signmaker
2009-08-04, 05:02 PM
Did somebody hear something?

No, but I've got a sudden craving for Cthocolate ice cream...

erikun
2009-08-04, 05:05 PM
Chuck E. Cheese (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832)? As might be expected from the name, it's some absurdly over-optimized character. Although if accurate, that's 1,104 Full-Round Attacks for you to use.

DUSUCK
2009-08-04, 09:14 PM
Chicken-Infested,

Good luck getting your DM to allow that :smallwink:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-04, 09:44 PM
Good luck getting your DM to allow that :smallwink:

Hey, I allow it in my games. Then again, the actions in a prior campaign of a trio of medusa commoners with that flaw who single-handedly destroyed the Prime economy and brought low epic armies convinced them not to abuse it, lest someone else head them off with the same tactics. :smallwink: