A Song of Ice and Fire [SPOILERS]

[Gorbash Kazdar]

For discussion of George R. R. Martin's excellent fantasy series, including spoilers up to the most recent book. If you have not read A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows, be aware that certain things will be spoiled for you in this thread.

Please mask any reliable or confirmed information not from the published books in the main tale (ie. anything you get from a magazine or website that isn't pure speculation).


Well, I just finished AFFC, and I have some thoughts, especially regarding Cersei.

First assuming that things don't turn out how they look and Cersei survives the trial, what do you thin kare the chances that Sansa/Alayne, not Margaery is the younger and more beautiful queen who supplants her. If Littlefinger's plan works, and the Lords of the North and the Vale both rally around her banner, she could defeat the Iron Throne.
That's been my assumption from the moment I read the prophecy about Cersei. It may be via Littlefinger's plan, or by Sansa's own machinations at a later date, or by chance, but I do think Sansa will be the younger and more beautiful queen.


I also wonder which Lannister twin is older. If it is Cersei, which I suspect, though I don't recall if it's ever explicitly stated, than Jamie could be the valonqar, which would make sense after he recently began his ascent back to honor.
It's certainly a strong possibility; I think Tyrion is a little obvious here, but he's certainly still a contender as well. To disqualify Jaime, though, the prophecy did speak of having "hands" - specifically plural - around her throat, which seems unlikely for Jaime at this point (of course, it never says they're real hands, and with the return of magic to Westeros...). The other suggestion I've heard plays off the "pale hands" part of the prophecy, suggesting someone who has been turned to a Wight by the Others. Also, note that it's "the," not "her," younger brother, which makes it very complicated.


Finally, how much of Wat's story do you think is true? I'm almost certain that Renly wasn't the only guy Margaery knew, or she wouldn't have been so adamant that she was a maiden. Personally, I think the other one is Ser Loras, but I couldn't say for sure; the only tiume it's even been implied is in Cersei's chapters, and Cersei was looking for some dirt o-n the real Queen anyway, so of course she would think the worst.
I think Cersei's assumption was based on her own relationship with Jaime - her own worries and feelings about that could very easily cloud her judgement and make her see such things where they don't exist. Also, there's some pretty strong indications that Loras may be gay, which makes it even less likely.* As to whether or not Margaery is a maid, that's hard to say - my personal feeling is that the obvious explanation here is too obvious, but I don't have any good alternate theories.

* Spoiler: Apparently, Martin has confirmed that Loras and Renly were lovers and that both were/are gay.

[WampaX]

For discussion of George R. R. Martin's excellent fantasy series, including spoilers up to the most recent book. If you have not read A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows, be aware that certain things will be spoiled for you in this thread.

Just to make sure, things from other canonical sources (i.e. The Hedge Knight) should be a-okay to talk about in here as well.

[Flabbicus]

Who do you guyts think Cold Hands is? We have virtually no information on him, besides that he can control ravens, has an empathy with elks, and is wight-like.

I've heard claims that he was Will from the first chapter of the first book, but I don't know what would set him apart from the regular people who were zombified or how this would occur.

^ I must shield my eyes from those books! I probably won't read them anyway. :-/

[WampaX]

^ I must shield my eyes from those books! I probably won't read them anyway. :-/

That's a sad thing to say. I have enjoyed the bits and pieces from AFFC that interlink with THK and am wonderign if they will continue to do so in ADWD.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

I think Cold Hands is some sort of renegade Other, probably connected with the Children of the Forest. Or possibly some sort of undead member of that race. He's definitely a druid type character, and the lore so far suggests a tie to the Children in that case.

My personal theory is that the Others either are the Children of the Forest (corrupted or undead) or a variant/distant relation of the Children. It may be more likely that they are simply the antithesis of the Children.

[Flabbicus]

Interesting, but then how would the dragons fit in? Would they be connected with the Children as well?

Wampa, I'll make sure to pick them up next time I go to the bookstore then.

[Midnight Son]

That's been my assumption from the moment I read the prophecy about Cersei. It may be via Littlefinger's plan, or by Sansa's own machinations at a later date, or by chance, but I do think Sansa will be the younger and more beautiful queen.
I'm torn between it being Sansa or Daenerys. Sansa would be more poetic, but I think Daenerys has the better chance.

[WampaX]

So, I haven't been back to look, but I was wondering if all the visions that Daenerys saw in the house have come to pass.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Not yet; some of the visions were of past events or futures-that-might-have-been. A few have come to pass - her liberation of the slaves of Yunkai fits with the one where thousands of slaves are pulling at while she rides past and calling her "mother," for example. Also one of the Red Wedding, with a man with a wolf's head feasting at a table. There's also a vision of the war between the four kings in Westeros, of Stannis with Lightbringer (or, at least, it very much seems like it), and one of a blue flower growing out of a wall of ice, which almost certainly is a reference to Jon Snow (or it might be of Lyanna Stark, but I'd lean more towards Jon). The importance of the last - plus the fact that the flower is specifically mentioned to be filling the air with a sweet fragrance - is debatable.

There are a few that aren't clear yet - her vision of a white lion in grass taller than a man, the one of a corpse standing in the prow of a ship with bright eyes and a dead face, a vision of a mummer's dragon, and a stone dragon taking flight (might be a future avoided when Davos prevented Stannis from sacrificing someone to awaken a dragon).

Plus, Rhaegar's song mentions three fires (one each for life, death, and love), three mounts (to bed, to dread, and to love), and three betrayals (for blood, for gold, and for love). The fire for life was most likely the one that awoke the dragons, the mount ridden to bed is probably Drogo, and the betrayal for blood was probably that of Mirri Maz Duur. It's possible the fire that destroyed the House of the Undying in Qath (where she saw the visions) was the fire for death, but I'm not sold on the idea. Mormont's selling of secrets to Varys might satisfy the betrayal for gold, but I think one of the mercenaries who have joined her will actually fulfill that one - though Mormont will probably fulfill the betrayal for love at some point.

[WampaX]

There are a few that aren't clear yet - her vision of a white lion in grass taller than a man, This would most likely be Jamie Lannister

the one of a corpse standing in the prow of a ship with bright eyes and a dead face, This would most likely be a Greyjoy, though it is a guess as to which one . . .


It's possible the fire that destroyed the House of the Undying in Qath (where she saw the visions) was the fire for death, but I'm not sold on the idea.
If not that, then possibly the dragon-fire itself.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

This would most likely be Jamie Lannister
For some reason that hadn't occurred to me. Very apt at this point as well, given how he's trying to navigate his way to being an honorable person.


This would most likely be a Greyjoy, though it is a guess as to which one . . .
Yeah, that'd be my guess. Asha is probably the only one that can be scratched from the list (as the quote indicated that the corpse was male). Personally, I'm wondering if it might not be Theon, possibly as a wight of some sort.

[Don Beegles]

I was just thinking about the prophecy of the WHite Lion which almost certainly repressents Jaime (White for Kingsguard, Lion for Lannister) and I started wondering about a potential connection between Jaime and Dany. I've decided that he will either be her lover, or she will kill him.

My reasoning: eveyr night before she goes to bed she wraps herself in the skin of a white lion that symbolizes her one true love. Think about it, she meets Jaime, they end up sleeping together, adn every night she wraps herself in teh arms of a whtie lion, ehr one true love. Alternately, she may kill Jaime and metaphoriclly wrap herself in his skin by stealing his cloak or something like that, though I feel that this option is more of a stretch than the first.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

I was just thinking about the prophecy of the WHite Lion which almost certainly repressents Jaime (White for Kingsguard, Lion for Lannister) and I started wondering about a potential connection between Jaime and Dany. I've decided that he will either be her lover, or she will kill him.

My reasoning: eveyr night before she goes to bed she wraps herself in the skin of a white lion that symbolizes her one true love. Think about it, she meets Jaime, they end up sleeping together, adn every night she wraps herself in teh arms of a whtie lion, ehr one true love. Alternately, she may kill Jaime and metaphoriclly wrap herself in his skin by stealing his cloak or something like that, though I feel that this option is more of a stretch than the first.
Now that is interesting. I had forgotten about Dany's lion skin and what it was supposed to mean. I'm not in complete agreement, but it certainly fits the current understanding of the prophecies and symbols we have so far.

OTOH - and I need to dig up the lion skin information and re-read it - I don't recall that the lion skin is any sort of "official" prophetic bit of information (not that it couldn't simply be GRRM foreshadowing it anyways). Feel free to correct me if I'm dead wrong on that, though ;)

[Alarra]

I can actually really see the Jaime and Dany thing now that you bring it up. That would be quite the interesting pairing.

[morbiczer]

1. Coldhands must be a (former) member of the Night's Watch. He wears black clothes and he calls Samwell "brother". We also know that Sam didn't recognize him, so he must have left the Watch before Sam arrived at the Wall.

I think the main candidate is still Benjen. He was killed on his ranging by the Others, became a wight (Coldhands looks exactly like a wight), but then either regained his free will, or never lost it in the first place. Probably because of his Stark blood, probably because of intervention by the Children of the Forest.

2. I think the big white lion in Dany's vision is simply the lion hunted by Khal Drogo, the pelt of which she still has.

[Dr._Weird]

There was a tale sometime in one of the books, I think Old Nan told it, which included part about a Stark brother of the Night's Watch who fell in love with an Other and was cast out by his brother. I think Coldhands is either that person, immortal, or one of his descendants.

[Big_Red_Bird]

I am eagerly anticipating the return of Theon Greyjoy. ;D
GRRM said he was bringing back a previous point of view, and with Ned out of the picture and Catelyn incapable of much besides murder, it has to be Theon, I think (or so I've beeen told anyways).

[Don Beegles]

Ooh, Benjen for Coldhands. That has much potential, though it would be interesting to learn why he is still able to help them.

Of course that could just be wishful thinking on my part, because I've been waiting or Benjen to come back and I'm almost positive he's not dead, because Martin is always so direct when he kills a character that when he doesn't show the actual act of killing and then the body. Two cases in point: Bran and Rickon are both supposedly killed antd then their 'bodies' are shown. But we never see them die, and it's the wrong bodies. For Catelyn, it never says she's dead, just implies it becasue her throat is cut, and then she comes back. (Admittedly, she does die first, but she still comes back.)

When Stannis showed up at the battle with Mance, I hoped it was Benjen and some random lost Rangers, but I was wrong, and I'm still waiting for the return whih is sure to come.

[Bane_of_Kree]

This would most likely be Jamie Lannister




For some reason that hadn't occurred to me. Very apt at this point as well, given how he's trying to navigate his way to being an honorable person.




This would most likely be a Greyjoy, though it is a




Yeah, that'd be my guess. Asha is probably the only one that can be scratched from the list (as the quote indicated that the corpse was male). Personally, I'm wondering if it might not be Theon, possibly as a wight of some sort.

A. It might also be Tyrion, as he is actually shorter than a man and has white hair (or very plae at least) and is on his way to Dany. He might prove himslef more vluable to her than any other man thus becoming "taller"

B. The Greyjoy is probably Victarion as he is the only one that is making his way to Dany

Note: I am assuming that the visions are all somehow connected to Dany.


Who do you guyts think Cold Hands is? We have virtually no information on him, besides that he can control ravens, has an empathy with elks, and is wight-like.

I've heard claims that he was Will from the first chapter of the first book, but I don't know what would set him apart from the regular people who were zombified or how this would occur.

^ I must shield my eyes from those books! I probably won't read them anyway. :-/

There is a very cool theory that says that coldhands is actually Bloodraven (on of the three great bastards of the fourth Aegon).