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Yora
2009-08-05, 11:54 AM
Can you use the maximize spell feat with dispel magic?

At CL 11th, a maximized dispel magic spell would be a 6th level spell with a caster level check result of 30. (1d20+10)
But at the same level, a greater dispel magic spell would also be a 6th level spell with a caster level check result with an average of 21,5 (1d20+11)

Only at CL 20th does GDM reach an average of 30,5. Even at CL 19th the maximized spell would be more effective on average. The benefit of GDM would be, that it has some chance to succeed were MxDM would always fail, but at levels when 6th level spells become just available, the MxDM would be much more reliable.

Or maybe this all falls apart, because the feat can not be applied to the spell? :smallamused:

Epinephrine
2009-08-05, 11:58 AM
Or maybe this all falls apart, because the feat can not be applied to the spell? :smallamused:

From the feat:

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

Edit: removed PHB content, now has SRD content

Yora
2009-08-05, 12:03 PM
That line is missing from the SRD I looked up. But I allready figured it, as you have to beat a DC of 11+CL.

Epinephrine
2009-08-05, 12:10 PM
Odd, I just assumed the PHB and SRD would read the same on something like that. Amended the original; I still think that the SRD wouldn't allow it, as it's an opposed roll of sorts, just that it's opposed by a constant rather than an opponent's roll.

Keshay
2009-08-05, 12:18 PM
I had this idea too, but was shot down by my more rules-savvy friends.

It was explained to me thusly: Maximize acts on the effects of a spell. The dispel check is not an effect, its a "to-hit".

As applied to a different spell, Scorching Ray. You can maximize it, but you still need to actually roll the ranged touch attack, you do not automatically get a "20".

I was disapointed, I really wanted my auto-30 dispel checks...

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-05, 12:21 PM
It was explained to me thusly: Maximize acts on the effects of a spell. The dispel check is not an effect, its a "to-hit".


More or less, this is the meaning: you cannot maximize a check.

Douglas
2009-08-05, 12:27 PM
You can apply Maximize Spell to Dispel Magic, but it will have no effect and Maximized Dispel Magic is only possible because Maximize Spell doesn't actually require that the spell you apply it to benefits from it. Maximize affects variable numeric effects of a spell. Dispel Magic's effect is "dispel" or "don't dispel". While this is variable and is determined by a number, it is not itself numeric.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-05, 12:48 PM
While this is variable and is determined by a number, it is not itself numeric. So Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) is a candidate for Maximize Spell (because the maximum roll of 100 brings you back as a something Other than a standard race, which is presumably better), but Dispel Magic isn't?

Seems like a pretty screwy distinction to me.

AstralFire
2009-08-05, 12:50 PM
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Spells that might actually be useful once maximized are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spellís actual level. An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

As we can see, both reincarnate and dispel magic are not valid choices.

Epinephrine
2009-08-05, 12:54 PM
As we can see, both reincarnate and dispel magic are not valid choices.

ROFL...

Ok, but can you maximize an Awaken? Makes for some smart, wise, and charismatic plants.

Edit: Wow, you can maximize all sorts of useless spells! Maximized Contact Other Plane, for example, guarantees that you get random answers. Maximized Teleports nearly always have mishaps, and Maximized Spell Turnings throw their owners into other planes if two casters ever have a spell battle.

Siosilvar
2009-08-05, 12:58 PM
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Spells that might actually be useful once maximized are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spellís actual level. An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.As we can see, both reincarnate and dispel magic are not valid choices.
Hey, wait a minute...

Curmudgeon
2009-08-05, 01:01 PM
As we can see, both reincarnate and dispel magic are not valid choices.
I don't understand your point. With Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) you roll a d% (variable), and get back a result on the table with a creature index number and STR, DEX, and CON modifiers (numeric effects). There's also a creature name. So the question is how you apply Maximize Spell (100 = Other = maximum index, or 01 = Bugbear = +8 total modifiers = maximum total), not whether you can.

Keshay
2009-08-05, 01:02 PM
Ok, but can you maximize an Awaken? Makes for some smart, wise, and charismatic plants.

For some reason I got a flash of a Far-Side like cartoon scene where two guys were jealously looking down a bar at a Ficus surrounded by women.

Edit: I think you missed the joke there Curmudgeon. They modified the actual verbiage of the feat description.

AstralFire
2009-08-05, 01:08 PM
I don't understand your point. With Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) you roll a d% (variable), and get back a result on the table with a creature index number and STR, DEX, and CON modifiers (numeric effects). There's also a creature name. So the question is how you apply Maximize Spell (100 = Other = maximum index, or 01 = Bugbear = +8 total modifiers = maximum total), not whether you can.

It wasn't a direct, serious response; it's that Maximize is terrible for blaster spells and usually people disallow or argue that the rules disallow applying it to things like reincarnate.

I have, in fact, used a maximized reincarnate before. :)

Edit: If you missed it, I changed the wording in the feat.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-05, 01:11 PM
For some reason I got a flash of a Far-Side like cartoon scene where two guys were jealously looking down a bar at a Ficus surrounded by women.
Yeah, but then you need one with the Maximized ficus looking jealously at the Maximized Empowered ficus.

Edit: I think you missed the joke there Curmudgeon. They modified the actual verbiage of the feat description.
No, I didn't miss that; I just purposely ignored it. What's the point of this forum if not to poke and prod the rules to see what they can be made to do? It's good, clean fun, and keeps us off the streets. :smallwink:

Epinephrine
2009-08-05, 01:25 PM
Yeah, but then you need one with the Maximized ficus looking jealously at the Maximized Empowered ficus.

"Come on," the ficus droned, "I've been ordered to take you down to see the druid. Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you down to see the druid. Call that job satisfaction? 'Cos I don't."

Douglas
2009-08-05, 01:37 PM
I don't understand your point. With Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) you roll a d% (variable), and get back a result on the table with a creature index number and STR, DEX, and CON modifiers (numeric effects). There's also a creature name. So the question is how you apply Maximize Spell (100 = Other = maximum index, or 01 = Bugbear = +8 total modifiers = maximum total), not whether you can.
You're stretching the definition of "numeric effect" rather far. The variable part of Reincarnate's effect is what race you come back as. This has some numerical consequences, but is not itself numeric. Neither Maximize nor Empower have any effect on Reincarnate.

Maximized Empowered Awaken works great, though, and would indeed get you a plant with all mental stats in the 20s or an animal with 20+ int and abnormally high charisma. You'll need either epic levels or a way to reduce metamagic costs to pull it off, though.

AstralFire
2009-08-05, 01:38 PM
You're stretching the definition of "numeric effect" rather far. The variable part of Reincarnate's effect is what race you come back as. This has some numerical consequences, but is not itself numeric. Neither Maximize nor Empower have any effect on Reincarnate.

Maximized Empowered Awaken works great, though, and would indeed get you a plant with all mental stats in the 20s or an animal with 20+ int and abnormally high charisma. You'll need either epic levels or a way to reduce metamagic costs to pull it off, though.

Sudden Maximize. Metamagic Rod.

Metamagic: Designed for Sorcerers to get the most out of their spells. And like everything else, the prepared casters do it better.

ErrantX
2009-08-05, 01:40 PM
Here's a metamagic question for you all, how would Empower Spell relate to say, Divine Power? Would it become a +9 Str bonus plus 1.5 hp bonus per caster level?

-X

AstralFire
2009-08-05, 01:41 PM
Here's a metamagic question for you all, how would Empower Spell relate to say, Divine Power? Would it become a +9 Str bonus plus 1.5 hp bonus per caster level?

-X

Rules Answer: It doesn't, there are no variable effects.
Sensible Answer: What the hell, divine power wasn't good enough for you already?!

ErrantX
2009-08-05, 01:43 PM
I veto'd a PC in my game's fire by saying he couldn't empower it, that's what I thought but he was stubborn in insisting. I agree with you though, Astral. That was exactly what I said.

-X

AstralFire
2009-08-05, 01:45 PM
I don't even allow my clerics divine power. I give my clerics a stick.

In their face.

And then drag them uphill through the snow both ways.

While they're on fire.

Epinephrine
2009-08-05, 01:45 PM
Sudden Maximize. Metamagic Rod.

Metamagic: Designed for Sorcerers to get the most out of their spells. And like everything else, the prepared casters do it better.

Incence of Meditation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#incenseofMeditation) Lots of smart plants!

ErrantX
2009-08-05, 01:45 PM
I don't even allow my clerics divine power. I give my clerics a stick.

In their face.

And then drag them uphill through the snow both ways.

While they're on fire.

Hahahaha, what's worse is that the PC is an artificer :P

-X

SinsI
2009-08-05, 02:49 PM
You're stretching the definition of "numeric effect" rather far. The variable part of Reincarnate's effect is what race you come back as. This has some numerical consequences, but is not itself numeric. Neither Maximize nor Empower have any effect on Reincarnate.

Maximized Empowered Awaken works great, though, and would indeed get you a plant with all mental stats in the 20s or an animal with 20+ int and abnormally high charisma. You'll need either epic levels or a way to reduce metamagic costs to pull it off, though.
Normal Maximized Awaken is more than enough.
Cast it on a big tree after reaching lvl 9 - and you got yourself a friendly Collosal animated plant that serves you in specific tasks; it has 32HD, 256 hp, Grapple bonus of 49, 10m reach and is able to damage grappled opponents for 4d6+13 damage.
Now I understand why Durkon was that afraid of those awakened trees...

Keshay
2009-08-05, 03:14 PM
Normal Maximized Awaken is more than enough.
Cast it on a big tree after reaching lvl 9 - and you got yourself a friendly Collosal animated plant that serves you in specific tasks; it has 34HD, 267 hp, Grapple bonus of 49, 10m reach and is able to damage grappled opponents for 4d6+13 damage.
Now I understand why Durkon was that afraid of those awakened trees...

Slight wrench in that plan: How would you suggest making a DC44 Will save at level 9?

Though I think it woudl ne a great idea to awaken a couple smaller trees and instantly begin teaching them the ways of the Druid, or a martial class. Is there anything to keep the trees from gaining character classes?

Man, now I want to awaken a cat and give it levels in Monk...

quick_comment
2009-08-05, 03:49 PM
Slight wrench in that plan: How would you suggest making a DC44 Will save at level 9?

Though I think it woudl ne a great idea to awaken a couple smaller trees and instantly begin teaching them the ways of the Druid, or a martial class. Is there anything to keep the trees from gaining character classes?

Man, now I want to awaken a cat and give it levels in Monk...

Limited Wish or Wish for the plant to succeed on its next saving throw.

Or a circle of casters with alter chance that continually use it until it gets a nat 20.

SinsI
2009-08-05, 04:16 PM
6 Will save from druid lvl 9, 5 Will save from basic Wisdom (18 + 2 level ups) + 2 Will save from Owl's Wisdom, +1 (Halfling racial bonus), Iron Will feat +2, Spell Focus +1, Greater Spell Focus +1, Guidance cantrip +1, Resistance cantrip +1 = 1d20 + 20 = 21 - 40. A little bit short of 42(was a little mistake on my part, it's only 32 HD), although an item for a +2 to Will save should not be that hard to find/make.
Maybe you'll have to settle for a Gargantuan tree, DC 28.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-05, 09:01 PM
Limited Wish or Wish for the plant to succeed on its next saving throw. Not going to help.
You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animalís current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The target doesn't need to make the saving throw; the caster does.

quick_comment
2009-08-05, 09:04 PM
Not going to help.
The target doesn't need to make the saving throw; the caster does.

So.....use it on yourself.

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-05, 09:38 PM
Maximized Empowered Awaken would grant +27 INT. So... am I the only one who now wants to see the dynamic duo of a Druid 13 and his Gelatinous Cube Wizard sidekick?

Cieyrin
2009-08-05, 10:10 PM
Man, I want to play the Maximized, Empowered Awakened Tree. Int, Wis and Cha 27 is too awesome. What kind of LA do you think a Tiny or Small Animated Tree (so you aren't stunted by racial hit dice you don't want for a caster build) would have?

AppleChips
2009-08-05, 10:48 PM
In the PHB, it actually uses dispel magic as an example for a spell that wouldn't work, for both Maximize and Empower.

Glimbur
2009-08-05, 10:48 PM
Maximize and Empower don't actually stack that way. A tree would wind up with between 19 and 27 Int, Wis, and Cha, which is still nice.

Cieyrin
2009-08-06, 10:47 AM
Shows how infrequently I play casters, I guess, but that's definitely pretty awesome in and of itself. Imagine, if you will, if said Awaken was Intensified, instead, so you would, in fact, have an Int, Wis and Cha of 36. On a Small or Tiny tree, that's a paltry Will save to make and the XP cost is nothing an epic character would really care about. I could see some epic Druid creating a small community of truly enlightened Awakened trees and having them contemplate the mysteries of the universe. "So that's the meaning of life? It's so simple!" :smallwink:

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-06, 10:49 AM
Maximize and Empower don't actually stack that way. A tree would wind up with between 19 and 27 Int, Wis, and Cha, which is still nice.

Awaken gives 3d6 INT + 1d3 CHA, so it would only be 27 INT and 4 CHA, not 27 INT, WIS and CHA.

AppleChips
2009-08-06, 10:55 AM
Now imagine an awakened barbarian! :)

Glimbur
2009-08-06, 11:02 AM
Awaken gives 3d6 INT + 1d3 CHA, so it would only be 27 INT and 4 CHA, not 27 INT, WIS and CHA.

Plants have different rules, probably because they start with no Int, Cha, or Wis.

Teron
2009-08-06, 11:56 AM
Though I think it woudl ne a great idea to awaken a couple smaller trees and instantly begin teaching them the ways of the Druid, or a martial class. Is there anything to keep the trees from gaining character classes?
As fully sapient creatures, there's no reason they can't take class levels (though, being NPCs, if and how they advance is ultimately up to the DM). In fact, Eberron has a level 20 awakened pine druid.

Personally, I'd like to play an awakened gorilla at some point.


Maximized Empowered Awaken would grant +27 INT. So... am I the only one who now wants to see the dynamic duo of a Druid 13 and his Gelatinous Cube Wizard sidekick?
Awaken only works on animals and trees. That aside, there's the question of how the blind, limbless, acidic cube would handle and read its spellbook. Maybe it could use mage hand to carve its spells into stone tablets it can carry inside itself and read by touch...

Cieyrin
2009-08-06, 02:44 PM
I think there was an Awaken Ooze spell, though from what source, I can't recall off-hand. Probably Savage Species, along w/ Awaken Golem (or Construct, I don't recall which, either :smallsigh:)

Curmudgeon
2009-08-06, 05:14 PM
Maximized Empowered Awaken would grant +27 INT. You need to read up on how these metamagic feats combine.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. 3d6, empowered and maximized, gives 18 + (3d6)/2, which leads to results in the range 19-27. You've got a mere 0.46% chance of getting 27 as your result.