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View Full Version : [4e] - Divine Power Cleric Build - Not Doing Damage = Profit?



Shadow_Elf
2009-08-05, 12:18 PM
I was very curious about the new healing potential of the "pacifist" cleric build in Divine Power. I opened up the Character Builder and hammered out a level 18 Cleric. While this Cleric only has one or two damaging powers, one of which is an at-will power, it seems Wizards has managed to make it a very viable and playable option. While I never do damage, my Healing Word heals surge value + 3d6 + 4d8 + 16 health three times per encounter as a minor action. My Heal check is at +27 and I can stabilize the dying as a minor action. Once per day, I can take ongoing 5 damage to give an ally Regeneration 22 until I save, and I can fail the saves on purpose to sustain the effect. I am very good at giving attack bonuses, lowering enemy defenses and crippling enemy activation control, mobility and damage output. What's not to love?

What are your opinions on how Wizards pulled off its first non-combatant build? Do you think they might come up with others? What do you want to see in the next non-combatant build they make?

skywalker
2009-08-05, 12:21 PM
From that limited amount of information, it sounds pretty good.

I'm unsure how playable this would be at lower levels, tho.

Also, in specific situations there might be trouble. I don't know what those might be, but I'm sure someone more clever and interested could think of some.

I kinda doubt they will come up with more, since it seems like a pretty niche market to me.

RTGoodman
2009-08-05, 12:25 PM
I like the idea and the execution, but I haven't played around with it TOO much. With such a big part of 4E combat being tied to doing damage, though (for better or for worse), I think it would only work if you had a striker-heavy party to cover for the damage you lose. Of course, it might even out with you giving enemies vulnerabilities and giving allies atk/dmg buffs, but I don't know if that's true or not.

Tengu_temp
2009-08-05, 12:33 PM
The "pacifist" cleric still has a lot of offensive powers, they just debuff enemies instead of dealing damage. So the name is misleading, I think.

Break
2009-08-05, 03:29 PM
The Messenger of Peace paragon path that goes along with it is stupidly good, too - just take a look at its level 20 daily.

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-05, 03:46 PM
The Messenger of Peace paragon path that goes along with it is stupidly good, too - just take a look at its level 20 daily.

Its a really awesome Paragon Path (-2 Attack Aura? Yes Please!) but I actually wasn't very impressed with the level 20 Daily. It pacifies them, but only until you attack them. Since 4e is a game with a low emphasis on the need for buffing rounds, what good does it really do?

Break
2009-08-05, 03:49 PM
Its a really awesome Paragon Path (-2 Attack Aura? Yes Please!) but I actually wasn't very impressed with the level 20 Daily. It pacifies them, but only until you attack them. Since 4e is a game with a low emphasis on the need for buffing rounds, what good does it really do?

Exactly, it only works until you attack them. Which means you focus on one enemy at a time while the rest can't even touch your party.

Even the miss effect is brutal - a -5 to attack rolls may as well take them out of the fight.

TheEmerged
2009-08-05, 04:28 PM
We're probably going to be switching one into the party in place of the "laser cleric" when we finish our current adventure. The theory-build looks pretty impressive, even if the choice of paragon path was not as cut-and-dried as it may look (if Miracle Worker's level 12 utility were better, it would have been taken instead).

While the heroic & epic feats build themselves, there's a bit of a shortage of viable paragon-tier feats since a lot of the existing feats seem to be built on the assumption of Radiant powers -- and this build doesn't have that many of those.

The thing I really want to see in practice (not just theory-running through a Dungeon Delve) is whether or not the buffs this build has are worth losing a damager. The amount of healing this build throws around is downright crazy, and the "make things easier to hit" effects appear to work better on paper -- but is it worth losing the damage? That's the sort of thing that can really only be seen in actual play.

RE: End To Strife, the 20th level MoP daily attack power.

Daily. Divine, Implement. Standard Action, Area burst 2 within 5 squares. Targets each enemy in burst, Wisdom vs Will. On hit, the target cannot attack until it is attacked or until the end of encounter. On miss, the targe takes a -5 penalty to attack rolls until it is attacked or until the end of the encounter.

It's an area effect mez effect, if you'll forgive the almost-taboo MMOG terminology, that doesn't end on a save or the end of the next turn. It will qualify for Coordinated Explosion (PHB2 pg 184) -- I suspect, most of the time. It will excel in the "Boss with minions" scenario, and be good in any fight where you're hoping to lock down non-minions.

However it does not prevent movement (fleeing) or non-attack actions (all sorts of fun could qualify, especially healing powers).

ocato
2009-08-05, 06:40 PM
I don't know, in my experience, massive amounts of healing is not really better. My group has a super duper crazy healer, and the DM compensates by making fights downright savage. The amounts of damage we take in order to keep the fights challenging and scary is absurd.

Granted, the pacifist brings more to the table than healing and that's just my DM-- but I'm still wary until I see it in action.

Master_Rahl22
2009-08-05, 09:28 PM
I saw a build on the Gleemax forums that I think was hybrid Artificer and MC Bard to get like 24d6+150 or some similar completely ungodly number at will healing at lvl 30. My response was: "Great. Why would anyone ever need that much healing?" I look at it as something to dabble in, or maybe useful in a party larger than 6, where 1/7 or 1/10 or whatever characters not doing damage isn't as big of a deal as 1/4 not doing damage.

TheEmerged
2009-08-05, 10:39 PM
It's not just the healing, Ocato -- although that figures into it. Take Astral Seal (DP pg 31, at-will attack power). The problem with some of the "make the target easier to hit" powers for leaders is that they were clearly figured into the to-hit balance of monsters but require a hit roll before they can work. Astral Seal makes the target easier for everyone to hit -- and itself as a +2 to hit. The fact that the next person to hit it regains a few HP is simply gravy.

Similarly, Exacting Vengance (DP pg 31, 1st level encounter attack power) gives the target vulnerability to all damage equal to the Wis modifier -- with a Wis of 18 and 4 teammates, you potentially did 16 points of damage to the mob. And that's beside the temp HP anybody that hits the victim gets.

Yakk
2009-08-06, 07:43 AM
Astral Seal has the +2 to hit, targets reflex, and ... lasts until the end of your next turn.

So on a target you'd "normally" need a 13+ to hit, you only need a 11+ the first round -- and once it lands, you only need a 9+ to keep it up.

Note that a pacifist cleric can still do damage -- they just cannot damage bloodied targets.

And yes, that level 20 daily is a game-breaker.