Good Polymorph forms.

[Trodon]

Hey I need some good polymorph forms I am a level 8 wizard thanks.

[Eldariel]

Do the numbers 339 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=758751) say anything to you?

[Trodon]

Thank You!!!!!!

[ericgrau]

It would be more useful if they subtracted the monster's BAB so that you can simply add your own. Ditto for subtracting base save bonuses. That's much easier than asking you to look up the monster's BAB and then subtract it yourself. I think the monster's #attacks and damage usually stays the same, and his HP is usually your own so knowing this would make a big difference in picking which form is the best. For example dragons tend to be poor bang-for-the-buck since they have so many HD. The resulting HP and BAB just gets wasted, while the HD limitation of the spell means you get a rather young dragon.

Anyone volunteer to list stats with BAB & base save bonuses subtracted off? That'd mean AB minus BAB, saves minus base save bonuses, natural armor bonus, #attacks, damage, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, size and movement speeds for alter self.
Then next line add str, con, dex and extraordinary special attacks for polymorph.
Then next line add the other extraordinary abilities plus supernatural abilities for shapechange.

[Eldariel]

The thread lists their attributes and size which are basically the only things beyond BAB modifying the Polymorph-creatures' stats (beyond your personal abilities not derived from the new form) so it's pretty much right there.

Really, all you need are:
- Movement Modes & Speeds
- Natural Armor
- Size
- Natural Attacks (which are primary and which deal Str x1.5 damage need mention too) & Extraordinary Special Attacks
- Physical Attributes
- Whether or not it has the appendages necessary to cast spells

Those are the only real variables in modern Polymorph. Of course, you need HD to know when it's available.

EDIT: I mean, as long as you know their Str and size, you can trivially add up these numbers to see the bonuses beyond BAB they grant.

[ericgrau]

And the penalties to their secondary attacks affect AB, don't forget those. I just think in the middle of a gaming session it'd be easier to add 1 number multiple times rather than 3. Not to mention remembering what those 3 modifiers are.

Besides that the thread doesn't list essential details like movement speed. I find that annoying for anyone who actually wants to use the list. It's basically just kinda helps at selecting forms (but not fully, since it's missing abilities like speed), and even then you gotta add 3 numbers every time you compare each one.

[Eldariel]

And the penalties to their secondary attacks affect AB, don't forget those. I just think in the middle of a gaming session it'd be easier to add 1 number multiple times rather than 3. Not to mention remembering what those 3 modifiers are.

Besides that the thread doesn't list essential details like movement speed. I find that annoying for anyone who actually wants to use the list. It's basically just kinda helps at selecting forms (but not fully, since it's missing abilities like speed), and even then you gotta add 3 numbers every time you compare each one.

Hm, true, movement speeds aren't listed. Should probably mention that to the thread's writer; I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a problem to add. And sure, secondaries have penalties but since those are fixed -5, or -2 with Multiattack, they don't need to be mentioned.

[ericgrau]

Calculating a str modifier (or dex where appropriate) - involving the subtraction of 10 then division by 2 - then adding to size modifier for each and every monster you're comparing is still a bit of a pain. Not saying anyone's required to do any work for somebody else, but pre-calculated AB (minus BAB) would be a nice thing to have in a guide.