(4E) Will this Houserule work with/add to my game?

[Alex Star]

Let me start by saying I enjoy 4E and think that it's an overall excellent system. However, I've got a minor issue with the way HP and Healing Surges currently work.

According to WotC HP are supposed to represent more of a Stamina aspect and Healing Surges are supposed to represent a characters overall Health.

However, in practice a Character who has all their healing surges but is at 1 HP is in far worse condition than a Character that has half their healing surges and is at full HP.

I don't think that actually works right, so I've devised the following houserule set to bring the mechanics in line with what I envision.

Keep in mind this gets a little long as I am essentially rewriting an entire portion of the standard ruleset.

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Wounds

Damage continues to work as normal, However, if on a single attack roll a character takes (1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 haven't decided) of their total HP in damage they make a d20 Wound roll. On a roll of 20+ the character suffers a wound. Taking a -1 penalty per wound to all d20 related checks (skill checks, attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws). The Wound Roll gains a bonus = to the # of healing surges the character has remaining less their maximum (ie: If you have 8 at max but only have 6 remaining the Wound Roll gets a +2 Modifier.)

d20 roll

20 - 1 wounds
21 - 2 wounds
22 - 3 wounds
etc....

(EDIT) A # of Wounds = to Healing Surges Below Maximum are automatically suffered if a character is reduced to Negative HP

Recovering from Wounds

Wounds can be healed in one of two ways.

As a minor action a character can 'Shake off' a number of wounds per day equaling his or her characters Constitution Modifier.

Wounds can also be healed by any healing method that allows the expenditure of a Healing Surge. Spending a healing surge recovers all wounds that a character is currently suffering.

Negative HP and Death Saving Throws

Should a character be reduced to Negative HP the character no longer makes Death Saving Throws. The Character instead makes a "Recovery Saving Throw". If the character succeeds on the Saving throw they recover using a Healing Surge in an identical manner as is described for succeeding on a Death Saving Throw.

After 3 rounds of Failed Recovery Saving Throws the character automatically recovers in the 4th Round.

Death

If at any time a character has more wounds than their total value of Healing Surges the character immediately becomes incapacitated and follows the normal rules for Death Saving Throws as described in the PHB.
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Theoretically this should make it so Heroes are less likely to die to a random chance hit, and more likely to die in later encounters during the day, when it is more likely that Healing Surges will be spent, and Wounds can accumulate very quickly.

It places much more value in Healing Potions since they now remove wounds even if they don't heal as much HP as a normal Healing Surge.

And finally it places some kind of value on fighting hurt. But allows that penalty to relatively be easily removed.

What do you guys think?

[Shadow_Elf]

First, I think this should be in the Homebrew Forums.

Second, I think it should work pretty well. However, as I read it, either "Recovery Saving Throws" are identical to "Death Saving Throws" in every way, OR it is impossible to die from failed "Recovery Saving Throws". If the first is true, why the distinction? If the second is true, how does this mechanic increase one's odds of dying from "exhaustion" and "wounds"? If wounds don't interact with your negative bloodied value and you can no longer die from Death Saving Throws, your rules on "Recovery Saving Throws" and "Wounds" have nothing to do with each other.

It does have the promise to add something to the game, though.

[Alex Star]

... as I read it, either "Recovery Saving Throws" are identical to "Death Saving Throws" in every way, OR it is impossible to die from failed "Recovery Saving Throws". If the first is true, why the distinction? If the second is true, how does this mechanic increase one's odds of dying from "exhaustion" and "wounds"?

This issue is one of clarity on my part. Let me put it this way.

Recovery Throws are Identical to Death Throws except if you fail 3 Recovery Throws you do not die, you simply automatically Recover in the 4th Round.

The Chance of dying works like this.

Example you have 8 healing surges maximum...

At a full 8 Healing Surges Available.

If your Character goes unconscious (ie: negative HP). He has 3 tries to recover early or he automatically recovers in the 4th Round. He suffers 0 wounds going unconscious.

At 6 Healing Surges Available.

If your character goes unconscious And suffers 2 Wounds and with that a -2 Penalty to the Recovery Throw. He has 3 tries to recover early or he automatically recovers in the 4th Round.

At 4 Healing Surges Available (0 Current Wounds)

If you go unconscious you have the normal 3 Tries to recover early, or auto recover.. all at a -4 Penalty due to the 4 wounds you suffered by going
unconscious.

At 4 Healing Surges Available (4 or More Current Wounds)

If you go unconscious you suffer 4 Wounds. Making your total Wounds Match your MAXIMUM Healing Surges... You are now making death saving throws.


At 0 Healing Surges Available (Any amount of wounds)

If you go unconscious you are making death saving throws and have 3 rounds for someone to heal you without you using a healing surge or gift you a healing surge via ability or you are Dead.

[Shadow_Elf]

-Snip-


Okay, now I get it. So, Recovery Saving Throws do not replace Death Saving Throws, they are added to the game in addition to Death Saving Throws. That makes much more sense. However, I will say this - while this makes your Wound mechanic impact dying very nicely, it also has the side-effect of making it harder to die overall. If every single method of spending a surge eliminates wounds, then falling unconscious isn't dangerous unless you are at 0 surges, since waking up allows you to spend a surge, therefore clearing you of wounds. I would make it so that only surges spent due to powers or items with the healing keyword clear all wounds, and that surges spent during short rests heal 1 Wound. All other methods of spending surges, including other potions, recovering from unconsciousness and your second wind heal no wounds. This means that Wounds accumulate on people that fall unconscious a lot faster, meaning that when they're at 6 surges, if they fall unconcious several times without magical healing, they're making death saving throws a lot sooner.

Once its refined a bit, I may even steal this, if that's okay with you. I like the idea a lot.

[Alex Star]

The reason I have all healing surge use clear wounds is otherwise the penalty for wounds is too steep and breaks the combat mechanic.

A character can last for 1 or 2 rounds at a -1 to -5 to attack... but doing that to them for an extended period of time has a serious effect on encounter difficulty.

Having wounds clear on a regular basis makes them exist but not impede the normal flow of the game.

Keep in mind it is possible for an attack to give you wounds and put you unconscious giving you more wounds at the same time.

(ie: You take the required amount of damage forcing a wound roll.. You take 4 wounds from the roll because you're 4 healing surges down... you then go unconscious from the damage taking another 4 wounds cause your 4 healing surges down.) All of a sudden you're making death saving throws :).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This would be a great rule if you simply flipped the rolls. You would have to roll 1 or below, taking penalties based on the wounds, etc. like other d20 rolls; I can't see any benefit to making a high roll bad and a low roll good, for that way lies THAC0.

[Random832]

This would be a great rule if you simply flipped the rolls. You would have to roll 1 or below, taking penalties based on the wounds, etc. like other d20 rolls; I can't see any benefit to making a high roll bad and a low roll good, for that way lies THAC0.

Don't be silly; that's not true of THAC0. You're thinking Nonweapon Proficiencies.

[Alex Star]

This would be a great rule if you simply flipped the rolls. You would have to roll 1 or below, taking penalties based on the wounds, etc. like other d20 rolls; I can't see any benefit to making a high roll bad and a low roll good, for that way lies THAC0.

Good Point... Rolls to be flipped.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Don't be silly; that's not true of THAC0. You're thinking Nonweapon Proficiencies.

I was actually thinking of the inverted AC portion; you're right that the rolls are the nonweapon proficiencies. Either way, rolls against the normal procedure = bad.

[Yakk]

Someone with 1 HP and a bunch of healing surges is someone who is off balance, and maybe has blood dripping over her eyes and making it hard to defend herself. The character is vulnerable to being taken out with another blow, even if the character isn't in physically horrible shape.

Someone with full HP and 0 healing surges is someone who is physically in bad shape, but determined to fight on. They are operating on pure willpower at this stage.

The game justification for the split is HP determines how much spike damage you can take -- which allows monsters to threaten to drop you -- while healing surges determines your daily endurance.

...

Your system punishes characters with huge healing surge pools for using their healing surges.

I'm also confused asto a number of your rules. Your references to "just like the normal rules" ... don't make much sense. Type out what should happen explicitly.

[Alex Star]

1.) Your system punishes characters with huge healing surge pools for using their healing surges.

2.) I'm also confused asto a number of your rules. Your references to "just like the normal rules" ... don't make much sense. Type out what should happen explicitly.

A 1.) Actually it doesn't... Characters with Larger Healing Surge pools are less likely to die period. A character who has a large healing surge pool is never likely to be in the situation of

a) Take enough damage in a single blow to require a wound roll

b) Find themselves in this stituation - unconscious + 0 surges left + wounds =/+ max surges.

In practice the system is designed to make the sturdy characters less likely to die, and the squishy characters more likely to actually feel the impact of getting hit.

A 2.) I think you may have skipped over my follow up posts to my first one that explained in a bit better detail how it works in practice :)

[Indon]

Your system punishes characters with huge healing surge pools for using their healing surges.

I had the impression that it gives everyone additional, significant long-term staying power in return for minor penalties to attack along the course of combats.

A Defender I've played a bit, level 8 with 80ish HP and over 15 healing surges, would take a very, very long time indeed to go down in this system. Meanwhile, he would incur few wounds during the course of combat. Each successive time he drops increases the chances that he'll have to wait out the full recovery duration, but he can 'drop' to that recovery state over 10 times before he has any meaningful chance to be dying as a result of it.

If there were a TPK in my party with those rules, my Defender would have to be coup de grace'd to die, because there's no way a combat is seriously going to last through him spending 40 or more rounds out of combat.

Edit: In an alternate scenario, say my character spends 3 surges between times he drops. He's still dropping at least 3 times before he's making death saving throws.

[Yakk]

Defender with 15 total healing surges, having used 10 of them.

Striker with 6 total healing surges, having used 4 of them.

They both take a wound threat.

Defender: d20+10 vs 20 -- 45% of 0 wounds, 55% of 1-11 wounds. Average of 3.3 wounds per check.

Striker: d20+4 vs 20 -- 75% of 0 wounds, 25% of 1-5 wounds. Average of 0.75 wounds per check.

The Defender now gets more wounded by the same attack than the striker does. This seems utterly random.

If the Defender goes unconsious, they suffer 10 wounds, while the Striker suffers 4. The Defender is taking a -10 penalty to death savings throws.

Both have used up 2/3 of their healing surges, yet the Defender is in much much much much worse shape than the Striker. In standard 4e, the Defender is in better shape, as they have 5 healing surges left, while the Striker has 2.

And yes, I read your clarifications and examples. I'm still saying you need to write up a clear, concise description of what is going on, and don't say "like in the standard rules".

For a simple example:

If the character succeeds on the Saving throw they recover using a Healing Surge in an identical manner as is described for succeeding on a Death Saving Throw.
If you suceed on a Death Saving Throw, you don't get to spend a healing surge. You only get to spend a healing surge if you roll a 20+ on a Death Saving Throw. So this is horribly worded -- I can guess you mean "if you succeed on a recovery saving throw, you can spend a healing surge if you have one. If you lack a healing surge, you are restored to 1 HP."

But that is just a guess. What you actually said was "if you succeed at a recovery saving throw, you can spend a healing surge if and only if you could spend a healing surge from the same roll on a death saving throw", or at least that is what is implied. I only discarded that interpretation because it would make your system silly, and I instead read it as saying what you didn't say.

...

So:
1> # of healing surges below maximium is a bad metric of 'how beat up someone is', because it punishes defenders for having huge pools of healing surges. You use it repeatedly, and I don't think it is appropriate for this reason at any point you use it.

2> The minor action shake off makes the entire complex system go away for entire categories of players. For other players (who happen to use minor actions, or who have a low con), they have an extra complex system that hinders them they didn't have before.

3> The wound threshold is a ridiculously important part of your system, and is left undetermined.

4> The large penalties from wounds make "recovering while incapacitated" effectively impossible. You are either down for 1-3 rounds (and know you are going to get up), or you are down until you die. What is worse is that defenders who are incapacitated are far more likely to die than non-defenders (as they have more healing surges -- see #1).

I'm not saying a wound system is a bad idea -- I'm just saying your implementation needs to be repolished and made clear, and I personally don't think some of the implications of your system are good for fun gameplay. (Namely, defenders who use up their healing surges go down harder in a decidedly non-linear way, and the somewhat random ability to mostly ignore the wound sub-system if you have a high con and no use for minor actions).

Tidy it up. Run some play tests, and do some thought experiments. And you could have something.

[Indon]

Defender with 15 total healing surges, having used 10 of them.

Striker with 6 total healing surges, having used 4 of them.

They both take a wound threat.

Defender: d20+10 vs 20 -- 45% of 0 wounds, 55% of 1-11 wounds. Average of 3.3 wounds per check.

Striker: d20+4 vs 20 -- 75% of 0 wounds, 25% of 1-5 wounds. Average of 0.75 wounds per check.

The Defender now gets more wounded by the same attack than the striker does. This seems utterly random.
The Defender has more hit points - so the attack that wounds the Defender would have to be stronger.

Similarly, the Defender has obviously taken much more punishment by the time they have consumed 10 healing surges than the Striker has.

Also, I think it's pretty clearly implied that wounds do not apply to death saving throws - just recovery ones.

Though, the 1:1 wound ratio for high rolls is probably too high. 1:3 seems better.

Number of healing surges below maximum provides a mechanical reflection regarding how tougher characters can take more punishment - and it's counterbalanced by the fact that tougher characters can now basically not be dropped by any means until they've consumed most of their healing surges.

The shake off thing does seem silly, admittedly, since Second Wind already provides the same function on a per-encounter basis.

A 1/4 wound threshold would be a good level if you wanted non-critical hits to be able to threaten wounds - anything higher and very few wounding attacks could be non-critical hits.

[AgentPaper]

While I don't think I completely understand the system, this really doesn't seem like a good idea. All you're going to do is confuse the players with more dice rolls and more things to keep track of, and when they do eventually die it's likely they won't even know it happened until you tell them. To them, at least, you may as well be telling them they die because you feel like having them die.

The current system is much, much simpler, and pretty obvious in what's happening with it. You also seem to have misinterpreted it. HP are exactly what they say: How much you can take a hit. This doesn't necessarily mean that you can get stabbed in the face 10 times before you die, but the more you have, the harder it is to actually kill you, whether you're taking the hit in a less vital place, persevering through the pain, going on pure testosterone/willpower, or you really are just that damned tough.

Healing Surges is your Stamina. It's your ability to get back up and keep on slugging. It's also a bit abstract, but when it comes down to it, the more surges you have, the longer you can fight. That doesn't mean Healing Surges = Health, though. It's entirely possible that you go on for hours taking hundreds of damage over the course of a day, but then the next day you get in a fight and a few swords through your chest kills you. If you had taken that damage over a longer period of time you would have pulled through it, but too much damage in too little time just overwhelmed you and kept you from recovering.

[Yakk]

The Defender has more hit points - so the attack that wounds the Defender would have to be stronger.
Defenders tend to have more hit points, but that is marginal. A Primal striker has as many HP as a non-primal Defender.

What defenders really have is lots more healing surges, and a tendency to have more AC.

This means you can drop a defender if the player isn't careful (it is only marginally harder than dropping a striker), but over a day's adventuring a defender isn't as likely to be seriously wounded by doing their job in the previous fights that day (as they have lots of healing surges).

Similarly, the Defender has obviously taken much more punishment by the time they have consumed 10 healing surges than the Striker has.
Well, they took more HP of damage -- but because (in 4e) your healing surges are a measure of how much more physical punishment you take that day, they have not taken a larger percentage of their damage load for that day.

A character with 200 HP who takes 50 damage is no more injured than a character with 20 HP who takes 5 damage. A character with 20 healing surges who is down to 10 is no more beat up than a character with 2 healing surges who is down to 1.

Those huge pools of healing surges are a class feature of defenders -- how they do their job. Under this system, their huge pools of healing surges ... are actually pretty damn useless, as the death-spiral mechanics of the system kick in based on the number of healing surges spent, rather than the number or fraction of healing surges remaining.

]Also, I think it's pretty clearly implied that wounds do not apply to death saving throws - just recovery ones."All d20 related checks" -- I took that to mean all d20 checks. As noted, the rules need lots of polish.

Number of healing surges below maximum provides a mechanical reflection regarding how tougher characters can take more punishment - and it's counterbalanced by the fact that tougher characters can now basically not be dropped by any means until they've consumed most of their healing surges.
Hmm? They can be dropped easily -- reduce to negative HP.

Then just beat them to negative bloodied.

The shake off thing does seem silly, admittedly, since Second Wind already provides the same function on a per-encounter basis.
It isn't just silly -- it has a huge impact on how the system works. And it looks tacked on.

That is why I'm very sceptical. This looks like a bunch of ideas someone thought where neat, with no actual attempt to figure out how it would impact and change game play.

[Indon]

Defenders tend to have more hit points, but that is marginal. A Primal striker has as many HP as a non-primal Defender.
That's not an example of a marginal difference - that's an example of how HP can have good variance from one class/build to another. Admittedly, though, some non-defenders can have very good HP.


A character with 200 HP who takes 50 damage is no more injured than a character with 20 HP who takes 5 damage. A character with 20 healing surges who is down to 10 is no more beat up than a character with 2 healing surges who is down to 1.
If I were to agree with you on the first statement (and since HP is basically luck/stamina now, I do), I couldn't agree with you on the second.

Your first example has, presumably, taken 250% of his HP in damage. Your second example has taken 25% of his HP in damage. 50% of your HP in damage (enough to drop you to bloodied) is considered the threshold at which HP suddenly gain significance as injury. Your first example has taken and subsequently recovered from enough damage to become bloodied five times.


Those huge pools of healing surges are a class feature of defenders -- how they do their job. Under this system, their huge pools of healing surges ... are actually pretty damn useless, as the death-spiral mechanics of the system kick in based on the number of healing surges spent, rather than the number or fraction of healing surges remaining.
They simply provide less of a benefit at lower percentage of surges than other characters gain from the system - in contrast, they provide more of a benefit at a higher percentage of surges.

A system based on number or fraction of healing surges remaining could also concievably work, but it would vastly increase the toughness gulf between defenders and non-defenders - a system much more likely to require a more general rules change such as a CR tweak to compensate.


Hmm? They can be dropped easily -- reduce to negative HP.

Then just beat them to negative bloodied.
This is no more a concern than it would be for the standard 4th edition death system.


It isn't just silly -- it has a huge impact on how the system works. And it looks tacked on.
Except it doesn't have a huge impact on how the system works. As you've implied earlier, characters with higher con (and thus more healing surges) are going to be incurring far more wounds than characters with less con. The ability to shrug off wounds starts relatively insignificant and becomes progressively less so as you get tougher.


That is why I'm very sceptical. This looks like a bunch of ideas someone thought where neat, with no actual attempt to figure out how it would impact and change game play.

That's what this thread is for.

[Artanis]

Your first example has, presumably, taken 250% of his HP in damage. Your second example has taken 25% of his HP in damage.

I thought they were meant as two seperate examples. Big-HP Character 1 vs. low-HP Character 2 and then many-surges Character 3 vs. two-surges Character 4.

[valadil]

You might want to look into the Game of Thrones d20 RPG. They introduced the concept of shock value. This was a threshold determined by your con score. When you take damage exceeding this value you make a fort save (DC12 + however much damage exceeded your SV) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to your margin of failure on the save.

I like the idea of using surges to determine shock value. It shows characters tiring after a day's worth of getting beaten up. Originally I was thinking of doubling current surges to get SV, but the glass jaw mage with 6 surges would get knocked out in the first combat. Maybe 10 or 15 plus surges gives SV? This would be higher than GoT's SVs (which were usually in the 8-12 range) but D&D damage is higher and this number will decrease over the course of time anyway.

[Indon]

I thought they were meant as two seperate examples. Big-HP Character 1 vs. low-HP Character 2 and then many-surges Character 3 vs. two-surges Character 4.

They're examples of two different and mutually exclusive HP paradigms - one states that percentages of HP are equivalent, and the other states that percentages of healing surges are equivalent, even though single healing surges translate to percentages of HP.

If two characters with different HP totals have taken the same amount of punishment after losing half their health, then the one with more surges - by count, not by percentage - is healthier than the other, because they can recover from more attacks that drop them to half their health.

[kestrel404]

This is very similar to the wounds houserule I used when running 4E right after it first came out.

I'll note the differences, maybe my ideas can help:


Damage continues to work as normal, However, if on a single attack roll a character takes (1/2, 1/3, or 1/4 haven't decided)

I ended up using 1/4 HP + con mod + level. Yeah, con score is in there effectively twice, but I think it worked well.


of their total HP in damage they make a d20 Wound roll.

No roll. They always took 1 wound. Simpler that way.


Taking a -1 penalty per wound to all d20 related checks (skill checks, attack rolls, ability checks, saving throws).

I ended up making it a -1 per two wounds - but my wounds were also harder to get rid of.


(EDIT) A # of Wounds = to Healing Surges Below Maximum are automatically suffered if a character is reduced to Negative HP

Again, 1 wound for this. Of course, you can still get a wound from sufficient damage at the same time.


Wounds can be healed in one of two ways.

As a minor action a character can 'Shake off' a number of wounds per day equaling his or her characters Constitution Modifier.

Wounds can also be healed by any healing method that allows the expenditure of a Healing Surge. Spending a healing surge recovers all wounds that a character is currently suffering.

Completely different here. Basically, the only way to heal a wound was time, or sufficiently powerful magic.

You could heal 1 wound per day, by spending a healing surge after an extedd rest. But only if you are at full HP when you wake up after that extended rest (I.E., you had enough healing surges left the previous day to recover all your HP).

A superior healing potion (400 GP cost, I think), which uses two healing surges. When used while at full HP it cures a wound, otherwise it simply restores two healing surges worth of HP.

There was also a ritual that worked similarly to the potion.


Negative HP and Death Saving Throws

Very similar, and I honestly like your version better.

(EDIT) Oh yes, and a Coup-des-grace always caused a wound, and one which brought a target to negative HP caused additional wounds (GM determined).

[Yakk]

If I were to agree with you on the first statement (and since HP is basically luck/stamina now, I do), I couldn't agree with you on the second.By "no more" I don't mean "equal". Just "not more".

If you have both lost 1/4 of your HP and you have more total HP, I won't agree that you are more beat up. You might be less beat up.

If you have both lost 1/4 of your total surges and you have more surges, I won't agree that you are more beat up. You might be less beat up.

The wound system makes someone who has lots 1/4 of their total surges more beat up if they have more surges.

They simply provide less of a benefit at lower percentage of surges than other characters gain from the system - in contrast, they provide more of a benefit at a higher percentage of surges.
How does a huge pool of surges help against wounds at all?

Remember, in 4e two someones with 2 surges left and 100/100 HP ... can take the exact same amount of beating before being taken out.

Under the wound mechanic, the player with a higher surge cap is adjacent to an immediate death spiral of wound penalties.

As it happens, it is the job of a defender to take a beating, and to do this job they have a huge supply of surges. Under the wound system, they are made significantly worse at their job.


A system based on number or fraction of healing surges remaining could also concievably work, but it would vastly increase the toughness gulf between defenders and non-defenders - a system much more likely to require a more general rules change such as a CR tweak to compensate.
Why would it? Heck -- a defender at 5/10 surges, under current rules, is tougher to put down than an otherwise identical (defensively) non-defender with 4/4 surges. If you used fraction of surges for wounds, the 5/10 surges defender would be worse off. So how does that increase the gap?

This is no more a concern than it would be for the standard 4th edition death system.
*nod*, except in standard 4e KO mechanic, someone who is unconscious is not nearly guaranteed to get back up on their own.

Except it doesn't have a huge impact on how the system works. As you've implied earlier, characters with higher con (and thus more healing surges) are going to be incurring far more wounds than characters with less con. The ability to shrug off wounds starts relatively insignificant and becomes progressively less so as you get tougher.
Higher con produces more surges. Higher surges is not only caused by higher con.

Someone with 30 con can shrug off 10 wounds with a minor action. 10 wounds is enough to make someone useless. So someone with high con, and little use for minor actions, would find that wounds are not a serious mechanical concern.

Someone with 12 con can shrug off 1 wound with a minor action. Someone with 12 con and a need to use minor actions would find the only practical way to deal with larger number of wounds is burning healing surges.

Anyhow, farewell thread. I don't like the system. I don't think I could salvage it for my own use without a complete rewrite. I hope it works good in your game!

[Alex Star]

Thanks for your input everyone :). I appreciate the critcism alot. If nothing else it'll help me refine what I'm trying to build so that it works better.

[Indon]

The wound system makes someone who has lots 1/4 of their total surges more beat up if they have more surges.
Beating someone up more makes them more beaten up.


Under the wound mechanic, the player with a higher surge cap is adjacent to an immediate death spiral of wound penalties.
The player with the higher surge cap took much longer to reach that point - while the player with the lower surge cap could have easily outright died by that point.


As it happens, it is the job of a defender to take a beating, and to do this job they have a huge supply of surges. Under the wound system, they are made significantly worse at their job.
Only when the party is essentially running out of resources - surges, abilities that grant surge uses, etc.


Why would it? Heck -- a defender at 5/10 surges, under current rules, is tougher to put down than an otherwise identical (defensively) non-defender with 4/4 surges. If you used fraction of surges for wounds, the 5/10 surges defender would be worse off. So how does that increase the gap?
Well, a direct and easy example would be to use current surge total as a bonus to recovery checks.

Defenders now, for the early part of the day, autorecover on the first round, and basically can not suffer wounds at all (which other characters can). Only near the end of the party's resources would the Defender start to, effectively, tire at all under this system, while finding KO's pretty trivial in the meanwhile.


*nod*, except in standard 4e KO mechanic, someone who is unconscious is not nearly guaranteed to get back up on their own.
Monster behavior is not meant to fit a simulationist mindset, but a gamist mindset. Monsters in 4E are intended to behave in a manner which makes fights balanced, not in a manner appropriate to, say, that monster's intelligence.

So it's a moot point.


Higher con produces more surges. Higher surges is not only caused by higher con.

Someone with 30 con can shrug off 10 wounds with a minor action. 10 wounds is enough to make someone useless. So someone with high con, and little use for minor actions, would find that wounds are not a serious mechanical concern.

Someone with 12 con can shrug off 1 wound with a minor action. Someone with 12 con and a need to use minor actions would find the only practical way to deal with larger number of wounds is burning healing surges.
Someone with high con will have more surges spent on their behalf, as they are likely to be filling or supplimenting a Defender role. Someone with less con will be taking less damage because they aren't pulling any of the Defender weight.