PDA

View Full Version : Flaming Burst vs Flaming and the like



Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 06:13 PM
In the esteemed opinion of the board, what is superior, the regular (flaming, icy etc) enchantment, or the burst (flaming burst, icy burst etc) enchantment? When does one start being better than the other. If one were to (hypothetically :smallwink:) wield a keen scythe or ransuer, which would be optimal?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-05, 06:14 PM
Anything reliant upon landing a critical hit is generally not worth your time: crits are too infrequent without serious cheesing to make them worth your while.

Elfin
2009-08-05, 06:16 PM
Anything reliant upon landing a critical hit is generally not worth your time: crits are too infrequent without serious cheesing to make them worth your while.

Agreed. And, for the same cost as Flaming Burst, you could instead get a Holy weapon, adding 2d6 damage vs evil creatures.

Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 06:17 PM
What if I have both of those nifty items that let you crit on constructs and undead?

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-05, 06:17 PM
Well, in 3rd Edition, Flaming Burst was more useful, since you could get ridiculous critical ranges like 6-20. Of course, you could also get Vorpal, which was effective with every threat.

In 3.5, regarding cost effectiveness, the non-burst versions are better, since you can stack more enhancements and you don't need to rely on critical hits.


What if I have both of those nifty items that let you crit on constructs and undead?

Bursts already work on enemies immune to critical hits.

thegurullamen
2009-08-05, 06:19 PM
Besides, the addition of a conditional +1d10 elemental-typed damage for a +1 is far, far too steep. You'd only (maybe) want that after getting a bunch of other, better enchantments and by that point, you're not critting anything--they're all immune.

Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 06:20 PM
Besides, the addition of a conditional +1d10 elemental-typed damage for a +1 is far, far too steep. You'd only (maybe) want that after getting a bunch of other, better enchantments and by that point, you're not critting anything--they're all immune.

It's either 2d10 or 3d10, since I'm either using a scythe or a ranseur.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-05, 06:21 PM
Don't get Flaming either, buy one of the weapon crystals in the MiC that adds it for a small cost in gp.

Keld Denar
2009-08-05, 06:23 PM
Neither is good. In the short term, Flaming and the like are ok, but as you start to climb in levels, especially when you start encountering low-mid level outsiders, elemental resistances become common. Fire Resist 5 means your flaming longsword now has a 1-6 change of dealing 1 single extra point of fire damage. Not worth the 6000g you paid for it over the +1, and REALLY not worth it if it was your 3rd or 4th bonus.

Bursts are pretty much never worth it outside of like...a Keen Kaorti Resin Kukiri, and even then, it still suffers a nerf when you encounter stuff with any resistance at all.

You are better off with Holy over Flaming Burst. This allows you to overcome common DRs, gives you 2d6 damage (as opposed to 1d6) against probably 80-90% of foes (depending on campaign) and costs the exact same. Or get Vicious. Thats 2d6 for a +1 equivalent. Sure, you take 1d6 backlash, but you are still getting more damage for your buck AND its untyped damage. Or get Collision, which is a static +5 damage as a +2 equivalent. Since its static, it gets multipled by a crit and its also untyped damage.

Sure, its not as iconic as a flaming sword, but its WAY better.

Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 06:25 PM
It's a +8 weapon, and already has Collision and is a Holy Avenger.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-05, 06:28 PM
You are better off with Holy over Flaming Burst. This allows you to overcome common DRs, gives you 2d6 damage (as opposed to 1d6) against probably 80-90% of foes (depending on campaign) and costs the exact same. Or get Vicious. Thats 2d6 for a +1 equivalent. Sure, you take 1d6 backlash, but you are still getting more damage for your buck AND its untyped damage. Or get Collision, which is a static +5 damage as a +2 equivalent. Since its static, it gets multipled by a crit and its also untyped damage.


Psychokinetic's good too. It's d4s of damage rather than d6s, but the d4s ignore DR, so you're always ensured to deal some damage. It's in the SRD.

Douglas
2009-08-05, 06:30 PM
If you really want a good on-crit property, wait until you've got a lot of money (which you apparently do since you're talking about improving a +8 holy avenger) and get either Enervating (+2, inflict a negative level on a crit) or Prismatic Burst (+30000 gp, Prismatic Burst DC 20 on crit). Both of these are from the Magic Item Compendium.

Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 06:32 PM
If you really want a good on-crit property, wait until you've got a lot of money (which you apparently do since you're talking about improving a +8 holy avenger) and get either Enervating (+2, inflict a negative level on a crit) or Prismatic Burst (+30000 gp, Prismatic Burst DC 20 on crit). Both of these are from the Magic Item Compendium.

I don't particularly want good on-crits, I just want to maximize the damage I get out of that +8

Keld Denar
2009-08-05, 06:34 PM
Yea, Enervating is decent for a critomatic. My opinion for your last +2 equiv would definitely be Transmuting (MIC). The ability to crack EVERY DR but DR/Epic and DR/- after the first hit is definitely worth it, especially at high levels when you have some wonky DRs like 15/Silver AND Lawful or such in some of the cooler monster source books. 15 damage is a lot to lose on a per hit basis, and good luck finding a +2 equiv that adds 15 damage per hit. Solid, IMO.

Darrin
2009-08-05, 06:46 PM
It's a +8 weapon, and already has Collision and is a Holy Avenger.

Bracers of Lightning (MIC p. 206, 11000 GP) will add Shocking to all your melee and ranged attacks as a swift action.

Crystal of Energy Assault (Lesser) will add 1d6 acid damage for another 3000 GP.

You can also add a Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer to a weapon for 450 GP (Complete Adventurer p. 121). This can be loaded with Quickflame, Quickfrost, and Quickspark (25 GP each), and all three can be activated as a swift action to add 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold, and 1d6 electricity damage to all your attacks for one round.

Eldariel
2009-08-05, 06:58 PM
Only character who really should bother with Bursts is a guy wielding 18-20/x2 Kaorti Resin-weapons with Scabbard of Keen Edges/Improved Critical/whatever. 15-20/x4 (or about ~27% chance to get +3d10 damage to anyone you hit on a 1, and "better" [because a larger number of your hitting attacks are crits, even if confirming is harder] as hitting gets harder).

Other than that, extra elementals are better. That said, out of Core, Holy (or Unholy) is just about the best +2 you can get. Outside Core, you have more options (Prismatic Burst is nicely a static cost instead of an enhancement so a must for Critlomancers) and yeah, you can guess how good Bursts are then. Definitely overcosted.

thegurullamen
2009-08-05, 07:07 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but what the heck is Kaorti Resin?

Mongoose87
2009-08-05, 07:10 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but what the heck is Kaorti Resin?

Been wondering that, myself.

Kylarra
2009-08-05, 07:11 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but what the heck is Kaorti Resin?link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).

In short, it gives a piercing or slashing weapon an x4 crit multiplier.

sofawall
2009-08-05, 07:34 PM
Special material that improves crit multiplier to x4.

Teron
2009-08-06, 02:30 AM
Given that the only beings who can make and enchant those resin weapons are Far Realm monsters from the Fiend Folio, you're not bloody likely to get your hands on them in most campaigns. They're nice for theoretical optimization, but not much else.

AslanCross
2009-08-06, 02:50 AM
brutal surge was always one of my favorite enhancements. It allows you to make a Bull Rush attempt that sends your target flying without you having to move along with him.

If you want a damaging property, I suggest bloodfeeding. Each hit you make gives the weapon a blood "charge," to a maximum of 10 charges. Each lasts an hour. Expending charges gives an extra +2 damage to your attack to a maximum of 5 charges per attack. It's physical damage, so it ignores resistances and the like. You'll definitely get more damage out rather than just +1d6.

Farlion
2009-08-06, 03:35 AM
Erm... I thought you needed to have flaming on the weapon in order to put the burst enhancement on top.

Or am I totally mistaken?

In that case, the question would really answer itself.


Cheers,
Farlion

Yora
2009-08-06, 03:38 AM
You probably could upgrade a flaming weapon to a flaming burst weapon, which would reduce the cost for the flaming burst enchantment by the cost for the flaming enchantment.
But the listed cost is for a weapon that isn't allready enchanted at all.

Farlion
2009-08-06, 03:50 AM
Then I don't get the the question flaming vs. flaming burst.

Flaming is a +1 enhancement which adds +1d6 fire dmg

Flaming burst is a +2 enhancement which adds +1d6 fire dmg and an additional 1d10-3d10 on critical hits.

Is he asking if the additional +1 of flaming burst is worthwile or not?

Cheers,
Farlion

Dhavaer
2009-08-06, 05:07 AM
Then I don't get the the question flaming vs. flaming burst.

Flaming is a +1 enhancement which adds +1d6 fire dmg

Flaming burst is a +2 enhancement which adds +1d6 fire dmg and an additional 1d10-3d10 on critical hits.

Is he asking if the additional +1 of flaming burst is worthwile or not?

Cheers,
Farlion

Yes, that's about it.

Farlion
2009-08-06, 07:34 AM
Ok, I did some math.

Here my assumptions:

Weapon threat range: 19-20
Critical multiplier: x2
Attackbonus: 20
Enemy armorclass: 20

I chose enemy armor and attackbonus the same, so each critical hit, can be confirmed. It makes it easier to determine the exact crit rate from the threat range.

This setup averages in 1.1 bonus dmg per hit which is somehwat inferior to an average 1d6 dmg per hit from flaming, BUT you can overcome dmg reduction with flaming burst alot better.

Now as this setup is optimal in the case of always confirming your critical, you can assume, that as soon as your attackbonus is lower than the enemy AC, your average dmg bonus per hit decreases.

Here some more numbers with increasing threat range of your weapon and x2 multiplier:

crit chance (%) / weapon threat range / attackbonus / enemy AC / average roll with 1d10 / Bonusdmg per hit
10 / 2 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 0.55
15 / 3 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 0.825
20 / 4 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 1.1
25 / 5 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 1.375
30 / 6 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 1.65
35 / 7 / 20 / 20 / 5.5 / 1.925

And now the whole thing with a x3 multiplier:
crit chance (%) / weapon threat range / attackbonus / enemy AC / average roll with 2d10 / Bonusdmg per hit
10 / 2 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 1.1
15 / 3 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 1.65
20 / 4 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 2.2
25 / 5 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 2.75
30 / 6 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 3.3
35 / 7 / 20 / 20 / 11 / 3.85

And now with x4 multiplier:
crit chance (%) / weapon threat range / attackbonus / enemy AC / average roll with 3d10 / Bonusdmg per hit
10 / 2 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 1.65
15 / 3 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 2.475
20 / 4 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 3.3
25 / 5 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 4.125
30 / 6 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 4.95
35 / 7 / 20 / 20 / 16.5 / 5.775

As soon as the dmg bonus per hit is larger than 3.5 (average of 1d6) it's worthwhile getting the flaming burst instead of just an additional 1d6 of another element type.

I hope I didn't make too many mistakes.

Cheers,
Farlion