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View Full Version : [3.5] Sorcerer dip - seeking advice



Thurbane
2009-08-05, 10:34 PM
Hey all. In my upcoming game (RttToEE), one of the players has expressed interest in taking a Kobold Src2/Rog 2. He said then he'll keep advancing as a Rogue.

While I don't want to rain on my players character concepts, I can't see this build being particularly good, especially in what I have been led to believe is a fairly brutal module. Also, he will probably be the group's only skill monkey, but another player has already stated he'll be playing a Sorcerer.

Our group are not what you'd call hardcore optimizers, and I certainly don't want to cramp anyone's style by dictating their build to them. I suppose my question is either - how do I talk him out of such a build, or do you have any suggestions for making such a build work? One thought is having him move into a PrC that would capitalize on such a build, like Arcane Trickster (which would require more Src levels).

All advice appreciated. If it helps, probable party composition so far (nothing in concrete) is:


Goliath Fighter 3
Human Cloistered Cleric 4
Human Duskblade 4
Human Sorcerer 4
Kobold Sorcerer 2/Rogue 2


Other relevant points: we use most books with the specific exceptions of ToB, MoI, psionics and Dragon Magazine material. Also, we enforce the favored class and XP penalty rules.

ericgrau
2009-08-05, 10:35 PM
Reduce it to sorcerer 1 and take it mainly for access to scrolls & wands. It'll be invaluable while his UMD is still low. An easy caster level check allows access to scrolls & wands beyond level 1. It's almost like having a UMD modifier of 20 for the purpose of sorcerer scrolls & wands. As for arcane trickster, it requires quite a bit more caster investment. I'd say he should only take it if he wants a lot more casting. The class' other benefits are minimal, but at least the requirements (other than high caster level) are easy.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-05, 10:40 PM
Actually, a dip in Sorcerer isn't a bad idea for a Rogue, although 2 levels nets him the worst of both worlds.

A one-level dip nets him: Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Detect magic, then for 1st level spells, he's got Grease (to make opponents flat-footed so he can Sneak Attack them) and Golem Strike, so he can SA constructs. Not a bad deal.

My suggestion to him:

You want an optimized skillmonkey with some magic?

Rogue1/Spellthief1/Sorcerer4/Arcane Trickster10/... end with whatever you want.

Take the feat Master Spellthief. It lets him cast his arcane spells in light armor at no arcane spell failure chance.

At level 16, it's got 7d6 sneak attack, so he's lost a total of 1d6, but he's also casting as a 14th level Sorcerer, so he has things like Disintegrate on hand.

Pick up Knock as a Wand (never as a spell known), and you've got a backup in case you ever screw up picking a lock. Charm Person lets you be the ultimate Party Face. And Ranged prestidigitation is just... fun.

As an alternative, suggest Warlock, since he can sneak attack with his Eldritch Blast. At Warlock4, he gets the ability to Take 10 on UMD checks. Or just a single-level dip and grab Eldritch Glaive as your invocation known, so you always have something you can sneak attack with, using only a touch attack to hit with.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-05, 10:46 PM
Sorc 3 or 1, not 4 or 2, using the Draconic Rite of Passage to boost his Sorc level without boosting HD. He wants 3 levels(and 1 ghost level) if going Arcane Trickster, 1 level if not.

Keld Denar
2009-08-05, 10:48 PM
AT requires 3rd levle spells:



Spells
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.


He would probably qualify for Unseen Seer though, if he had a decent int to do the skills, and from USS he could progress into AT, although USS is a far better PrC, IMO.

He would also need fewer levels if you let him undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, as outlined in the web enhancement for Kobalds on the wizards site. It basically gives out a free Sorcerer level without the HD. This could be used to meet entry reqs earlier than otherwise normal.

Seriously though, look into USS. Its a great PrC for what he wants. I dunno how you handle class skills, but the only thing I'd change about that PrC is to make Search and Disable Device class skills for it so he doesn't slack on his desired roll of skillz guy/trapfinder.

Doc Roc
2009-08-06, 01:22 AM
I love Unseen Seer, but I can't help feeling that sor 2/rogue 2 should just be factotum 4.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-06, 01:58 AM
AT requires 3rd levle spells:



He would probably qualify for Unseen Seer though, if he had a decent int to do the skills, and from USS he could progress into AT, although USS is a far better PrC, IMO.

He would also need fewer levels if you let him undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, as outlined in the web enhancement for Kobalds on the wizards site. It basically gives out a free Sorcerer level without the HD. This could be used to meet entry reqs earlier than otherwise normal.

Seriously though, look into USS. Its a great PrC for what he wants. I dunno how you handle class skills, but the only thing I'd change about that PrC is to make Search and Disable Device class skills for it so he doesn't slack on his desired roll of skillz guy/trapfinder.

And I would disagree with you about USS. Not everyone wants to take a hit on caster level to everything but divination skills... or blow a feat (which could be a metamagic feat) to offset a negative class ability.

USS is 2 levels long, suitable for getting into AT a little earlier. Rogue1/Spellthief1/Sorcerer3 (assuming Able Learner at 1st level to get the requsite 8 ranks in 3 otherwise cross-class skills)/USS2/AT10 (assuming greater draconic rite to give him a phantom sorcerer caster level)

8d6 sneak attack, 15/17 casting, and the ever-handy Ranged Prestidigitation. And casting in light armor. Oh, and a bonus divination spell and Silent Spell in case anyone tries to trap you in a Silence globe.

Leon
2009-08-06, 02:50 AM
Make sure to puree well, you want a nice smooth consistency.

Whats his concept for character?
Are the sorcerer levels needed as opposed to being a pure rogue?
Having 2 sorcerers in a party is not a bad thing if they choose to cover different spell areas

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-06, 02:52 AM
I love Unseen Seer, but I can't help feeling that sor 2/rogue 2 should just be factotum 4.

Or a bard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Doc Roc
2009-08-06, 02:57 AM
Ohhhh, yes, or perhaps a entirely different flavor of Ba-ba-bardddddd (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNTdjZjVtODNmOA&hl=en)!

Telonius
2009-08-06, 04:59 AM
I'm not familiar with the module, but would Beguiler make more sense for the Rogue in question? Cloaked casting and Surprise Casting strike me as things that a Rogue might benefit from.

Fizban
2009-08-06, 05:11 AM
Actually, a dip in Sorcerer isn't a bad idea for a Rogue, although 2 levels nets him the worst of both worlds.

A one-level dip nets him: Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Detect magic, then for 1st level spells, he's got Grease (to make opponents flat-footed so he can Sneak Attack them) and Golem Strike, so he can SA constructs. Not a bad deal.
You forgot Sniper's Eye to sneak attack with no range limit for one round and Critical Strike for extra sneak attack, keen, and critical confirmation bonus for one round. I'd take Sniper's Eye and Critical Strike or Grease.

Thurbane
2009-08-06, 09:05 PM
I'm not familiar with the module, but would Beguiler make more sense for the Rogue in question? Cloaked casting and Surprise Casting strike me as things that a Rogue might benefit from.
Quite possibly, but our group kind of has a moritorium on Beguilers at the moment, as they have been a bit "over played" in our games recently...

I'd be more than happy for him to run a Factotum, as we haven't had one in our games yet. I might try to sell him on this. :smallsmile: If he is set on Rog/Src, I'll suggest aiming towards Unseen seer.

Toliudar
2009-08-06, 09:30 PM
The module can be handled just fine without a dedicated skillmonkey. But, having said that, Sor 1/Rogue 3 does seem like a better build.

I suppose it's possible that the player has something interesting in mind in terms of draconic heritage feats, but I'm not sure how well that will serve him/her in what is a fairly long and brutal adventure.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 09:53 PM
It really depends on the reasons for why the player wants the PC to have 2 levels in Sorcerer, but here are some alternative suggestions for a rogue-type to splash some magical prowess:

If the spell list fits, a level in Duskblade would benefit the character far more than a level in Sorcerer.

They could go with a level or two in Warlock, for some all-day buffs that synergise really well with the Rogue, plus a ranged touch attack that can never be disarmed.

Levels in Swordsage can garner some "magical" abilities, and they can start with some 2nd level maneuvers if they take their 4th level in Swordsage.

2 levels in Erudite, Psion or Wilder could be of more benefit than 2 levels in Sorcerer.

Thurbane
2009-08-06, 10:02 PM
I like the Duskblade and Warlock suggestions. We don't play Tob, psionics or MoI in our games. I should've mentioned that in the OP.

Babale
2009-08-06, 10:14 PM
Personally, I agree with either Spellthief or Warlock dips, as both of these mash better with a Rogue then a Sorcerer.

Thurbane
2009-08-06, 10:22 PM
...of course, one issue I'd forgotten about is favored class and XP penalties. It's a rule that we enforce in our games.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 10:25 PM
...of course, one issue I'd forgotten about is favored class and XP penalties. It's a rule that we enforce in our games.

Boo!

Why?

Thurbane
2009-08-06, 10:27 PM
Boo!

Why?
It's just one of those things. Also, I'm trying to run a totally RAW game with no houseruling...

erikun
2009-08-06, 10:34 PM
Sorcerer is the favored class of the Kobold, so a Sorcerer/Rogue wouldn't be a problem that way.

I'd recommend Sorcerer 1/Rogue 3 for now, and have him take further Sorcerer levels later, if he feels he needs them. Remember that he'll have to deal with Arcane Spell Failure while wearing armor!

If he just wants a castery rogue (and you're tossing out favored class rules - yuk!) I'd recommend Bard 1/Rogue 3. Utility spell casting, advance most of his skills, and can cast in armor! And while I'm not familiar with the class, Warlock/Rogue sounds like it would make sense, too.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 10:39 PM
It's just one of those things. Also, I'm trying to run a totally RAW game with no houseruling...

Okay, no problem! I will just say that the Warlock and Sorcerer classes are so similar in flavor that it wouldn't be a problem at all to say that classes with FC: Sorcerer also get FC: Warlock for free :smallsmile:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-06, 10:44 PM
...of course, one issue I'd forgotten about is favored class and XP penalties. It's a rule that we enforce in our games.

Well, with two levels of Rogue, you can take one level of Spellthief and not encounter xp penalties, since by RAW, Prestige Classes and Favored Classes do not count. So his Sorcerer levels won't count.

Spellthief1 enables him to qualify for the Master Spellthief feat in Complete Adventurer, which lets him cast his Sorcerer spells in Light Armor at No Penalty.

Then just go Sorcerer until you get to Arcane Trickster. Or a couple level dip in Seer of the Unseen before going into AT. That gives him Skillmonkey + Casting.

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 12:05 AM
Any luck selling him on the facty? :)

Thurbane
2009-08-12, 04:41 PM
We had a bit of a chat, and he has revised what he's going to take. He's going to go human, Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Paragon 2. He'll pick up Paragon 3 next level, then keep progressing as a Rogue. The latest party composition looks like this:


Human Rog 1/Src 1/Par 2
Goliath Fighter 3
Human Cloistered Cleric 4
Dwarf Duskblade 4
Human Sorcerer 4