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Mystic Muse
2009-08-05, 11:41 PM
I'm looking for good riddles for my D&D players. I'd like them to be good enough to pose a challenge but not cross the line into the realm of impossible or ridiculously hard.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 12:27 AM
Riddles should be used sparingly. Most suck.

Insert my normal picture of Dr. McNinja laser riddle.

Etcetera
2009-08-06, 12:34 AM
How about the riddle said to come from the sphinx:
What has four legs in the morning, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening...
Answer: A person
Crawls on hands and knees as a baby
Two legs as an adult
Three legs as an invalid with a stick
You should be able to find some good riddles in a book or online.

Rasagal
2009-08-06, 01:07 AM
Here's something nice to use to really test your players mettle of my own design. My guys loved it.
Basically the party reaches a long room. In the other end of it they see a large ornate stone chest which promises great riches inside it. The whole middle section of the room is covered in deadly traps. Huge buzzsaws, razor blades, arrow holes, spikes, moving crushing holes, the works. And none of them is really covered up, it's all up there to spell C-E-R-T-A-I-N-D-E-A-T-H.
Above the chest there is a carved gem encrusted eye with large writing beneath it. The writing says(bastardised a bit cause i originally wrote it in greek and can't really rhyme it now):

"Five elements there are, None i will accept
Except one alone, that i will respect
One of them betrayed me, as did it's sustenance
Darkness came over me, damn it's existance
The second i was denied, humiliated by it
All around and it mocked me, Bitternes i tasted
The third one abandoned me, left me in shambles
The fourth surrounded me, in illusions and tumbles
The fifth stayed with me, my precious holy one
Only in it's lonesome, it will avoid my death trap"

Everytime the party tried to throw a rock or use a pole to search for safe spots the traps would come alive ripping whatever was standing there to shreds. In the end they figured it out and though they were really nervous about it they sent the bard to stroll through the "path of dead" naked. It worked.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-06, 01:10 AM
[QUOTE=Rasagal
"Five elements there are, None i will accept
Except one alone, that i will respect
One of them betrayed me, as did it's sustenance
Darkness came over me, damn it's existance
The second i was denied, humiliated by it
All around and it mocked me, Bitternes i tasted
The third one abandoned me, left me in shambles
The fourth surrounded me, in illusions and tumbles
The fifth stayed with me, my precious holy one
Only in it's lonesome, it will avoid my death trap"

.[/QUOTE]


wait so what's the answer? and how did the players make the connection?

Rasagal
2009-08-06, 01:16 AM
basically think 5th Element movie. You know, the five elements were earth, water, fire, air and life. The first the riddle talks about is fire, the second is water, the third is earth and the fourth is air. That left only life to go through on it's lonesome. Cue in the strip-tease music.

sonofzeal
2009-08-06, 01:16 AM
I can eat, but I can never be full.
I can be felt, but I can never be touched.
I can die, but I can never live.

I am form without substance.
I am protection without safety.
I am day without sun.

My giver was cursed
My followers are feared
My name is a warning

Of all the destroyers I am the greatest
For I bring the inevitable end of all.
Who am I?

Rasagal
2009-08-06, 01:18 AM
fire, super easy. the first 3 lines were more than enough of a clue.

sonofzeal
2009-08-06, 01:19 AM
fire, super easy. the first 3 lines were more than enough of a clue.
Indeed, but it stumps a lot of people. The trick is, yeah, just pay attention to the opening bit. The rest is all true, but leads you further and further from the right answer.

Trodon
2009-08-06, 01:19 AM
I can eat, but I can never be full.
I can be felt, but I can never be touched.
I can die, but I can never live.

I am form without substance.
I am protection without safety.
I am day without sun.

My giver was cursed
My followers are feared
My name is a warning

Of all the destroyers I am the greatest
For I bring the inevitable end of all.
Who am I?

Death/Nerull?

Anathemus
2009-08-06, 01:25 AM
What is more powerful than the gods,
More wiked than the devils,
The rich man needs it,
The poor man has it,
And it will kill you if you eat it?

Don the Bastard
2009-08-06, 01:32 AM
What is more powerful than the gods,
More wiked than the devils,
The rich man needs it,
The poor man has it,
And it will kill you if you eat it?

The answer is Nothing.

Rasagal
2009-08-06, 01:33 AM
the answer is "Nothing". Simple but elegant riddle, i liked it.

Edit - I've been ninjaed. well done shadow warrior

Mystic Muse
2009-08-06, 01:34 AM
What is more powerful than the gods,
More wiked than the devils,
The rich man needs it,
The poor man has it,
And it will kill you if you eat it?

everybody's mom and their dog knows this one. it works better if you take away the first two verses.

Anathemus
2009-08-06, 01:38 AM
Haha, man, that one's more well-known than I thought. That one's a favorite of my uncle's. Its nice having a Gandalf-type in the family.

And speaking of Tolken:
"What has no windows, doors, nor lid, yet golden treasure inside is hid?"
(Hint: its an Egg)

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-06, 02:24 AM
I remember back to "Flight of the Iron Star," the PbP game I ran some time ago on the forum. One of the PCs was a copper dragon shaman with an affinity for riddles. He and the party druid exchanged riddles for a bit while they were in town, and then he got asked this gem by a shopkeeper...


A thief sought to infiltrate the temple of death. Knowing that providing the wrong password at the door would mean certain death, he hid outside and watched for a while.

A man approaches the entrance, and a voice calls out from inside, "Six!" The man replies, "Three!" He is admitted.

A second man approaches, and the voice calls out, "Twelve!" The man replies, "Six!" and is admitted.

A third man approaches, and the voice calls out, "Ten!" The man replies, "Five!" and then is killed.

What was the correct password?

It took him a little while to figure that one out. Ah, nostalgia...

PId6
2009-08-06, 02:32 AM
I remember back to "Flight of the Iron Star," the PbP game I ran some time ago on the forum. One of the PCs was a copper dragon shaman with an affinity for riddles. He and the party druid exchanged riddles for a bit while they were in town, and then he got asked this gem by a shopkeeper...

It took him a little while to figure that one out. Ah, nostalgia...
Um, let's see...

6*3 is 18, and the digits add up to 9.
12*6 is 72, and the digits add up to 9.
10*5 is 50, and the digits do not add up to 9.

So you have to answer with something that, when multiplied by the original number, has all digits add up to 9. So if they give you "Ten", you can answer "Nine" since 10*9 is 90, which has digits that add up to 9.

TheThan
2009-08-06, 02:35 AM
If your going to do a riddle I suggest you do one with multiple possibilities and answers. That way you don’t bog the game down while your players strain for the right answer.

Sometimes players latch onto the wrong clue, or are thinking something completely different from what you had in mind. Making a riddle with multiple right answers will keep the players from having to read the Dm’s mind to be able to continue.

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-06, 02:38 AM
Um, let's see......damn. :smalleek:

The answer I was looking for was actually "three," because the password is actually how many letters are in the word provided... however, your guess made just as much sense as mine (if not more).


Sometimes players latch onto the wrong clue, or are thinking something completely different from what you had in mind.This, this, very this.

Tyrmatt
2009-08-06, 02:44 AM
Twas' in the wood I got it,
So I sat me down to seek it.
Alas I could not find it.
So I took it home instead.

The Answer is of course, a splinter

And the classic: I have a mouth but cannot talk, I can run but never walk and always lie in my bed. What am I?

A river

I have been shrugged off as the merest insect, but I have also toppled nations and led men to ruin. What am I?
Words

And of course, How do you infuriate a Playgrounder?

Evilfeeds
2009-08-06, 02:46 AM
...damn. :smalleek:

The answer I was looking for was actually "three," because the password is actually how many letters are in the word provided... however, your guess made just as much sense as mine (if not more).

This, this, very this.

Actually, I had a different answer: whatever the previous call was, was the answer.

ie
Riddle:5 Answer: 2
Riddle:7 Answer: 5
Riddle:3 Answer: 7
Riddle:4 Answer: 3

etc

This highlights one of the problems with riddles: there are often multiple logical solutions. I think the trick is giving enough information to eliminate all possible confusion, without it being bogged down. Also, if the players do work out something that isnt "correct", dont punish them.

Milskidasith
2009-08-06, 02:49 AM
Another problem with riddles is that they frequently give a bunch of vague hints that require you to have the same kind of lateral thinking as the person who made the riddle to understand, and because of the fact they love rhyming over clarity, you frequently get riddles where there are a few hints towards the "wrong" answer and the "right" answer is only hinted through stuff that may be a clue if you think the DM is was thinking of it at the time.

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 07:19 AM
I have been shrugged off as the merest insect, but I have also toppled nations and led men to ruin. What am I?

A mosquito vectoring malaria. :smalltongue:

kamikasei
2009-08-06, 07:27 AM
There are no good riddles. Abjure them and all their works in your games.


It took him a little while to figure that one out. Ah, nostalgia...

Three. ("How many letters in the word I shout out?")

Damn, I was hoping no one else would have posted the answer and you went and posted it yourself.

Dixieboy
2009-08-06, 07:29 AM
The answer is Nothing.
Ah

But doesn't that depend on the devils and god in question?

I would believe that a couple of devils could be more powerful than Exarchs
And I also believe you could find a couple of things more wicked than a newly created lemure. (Though with that thing, you'd probably be hard pressed, (Excpet if you go with "A stronger devil") A demon is about equally wicked though)

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 07:35 AM
I am not a spell, but I can be cast.

Your players will say "A shadow" at which point you say "Ooh, sorry, the answer was 'iron'". And then they hit you.

kamikasei
2009-08-06, 07:37 AM
Man, that could be anything that can be "cast". Iron, a stone, a play, a broken bone.

edit: Heh, and I didn't even hit on the "obvious" answer you predicted. People, this is what's wrong with riddles.

Also, aspersions, a net, a fortune, your mind back, a glance...

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 07:40 AM
Man, that could be anything that can be "cast". Iron, a stone, a play, a broken bone.

edit: Heh, and I didn't even hit on the "obvious" answer you predicted. People, this is what's wrong with riddles.

Well you bring up a good point. If they don't say shadow, then the answer is "shadow", of course. Or one of the other answers you mentioned, as long as it ensures your players hit you.

PId6
2009-08-06, 07:44 AM
I am not a spell, but I can be cast.
I was going to say net...

"What is green and red and goes round and round and round?"

MichielHagen
2009-08-06, 07:45 AM
Um, let's see...

6*3 is 18, and the digits add up to 9.
12*6 is 72, and the digits add up to 9.
10*5 is 50, and the digits do not add up to 9.

So you have to answer with something that, when multiplied by the original number, has all digits add up to 9. So if they give you "Ten", you can answer "Nine" since 10*9 is 90, which has digits that add up to 9.

Another possible variant, with similar answers:

You add the digits of the numbers to a total of 9

6 + 3 = 9
1+2 + 6 = 9
1+0 + 8 = 9

In this case the correct answer would be 8.....and i guess i would die, since the dm had 3 as an answer....

Farlion
2009-08-06, 07:46 AM
What becomes wet when drying?

A towel

PId6
2009-08-06, 07:48 AM
What becomes wet when drying?
Huh, I read that as "What becomes wet when dying" for a second. I was going to say people before I read the question again.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-06, 07:55 AM
I have a few.

Riddles
1.) What gold scalds the evil of its land?
Well, a gold dragon.

2.) My first is in may, not yes or no;
My second is in chaos, law, and flea;
My third is in giddy-up and in go;
My fourth is in I but not in me.
My last is in the coming but not in the going,
But all in all I can wish, blast or make snowing.
Magic!

3.) What has eight ends, but at dawn uses but six?
A dragon.

Explanations
1.) Do I need to explain this?
2.) It refers to the letters:M-A-G-I-C.
3.) The "eight ends" are a dragon's four legs, two wings, head, and tail. A baby dragon, at the 'dawn of its life", cannot fly at first.

Tips:
Think of the answer and of obscure traits about it. Put them in in a symbolic way. Rhyme it, maybe. You have a riddle!

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 07:59 AM
Another asinine answer to my "I am not a spell, but I can be cast":

A value. For example


float aFloat = 2.3;
int aInt = (int) aFloat;

(Warning: Possible loss of precision)

Of course in this example, int aInt = aFloat would do the same thing, it doesn't need to be explicitly cast. It's just funny that I would post that, and then go off to my program, finding that I needed to cast something!

PId6
2009-08-06, 08:03 AM
Another asinine answer to my "I am not a spell, but I can be cast":
Damn, I really need to brush up on my Java after not remembering that...

Dixieboy
2009-08-06, 08:05 AM
Doubt can also be cast.

Sorta related:
If you make a riddle that has several answers, (Knowingly or not)
Would you accept a "correct" answer, or only the one you thought of?

MichielHagen
2009-08-06, 08:09 AM
3.) What has eight ends, but at dawn uses but six?
A dragon.


This one is way too (...uhm, english is not my native language) far fetched.

kamikasei
2009-08-06, 08:13 AM
Doubt can also be cast.

Sorta related:
If you make a riddle that has several answers, (Knowingly or not)
Would you accept a "correct" answer, or only the one you thought of?

Depends on the purpose of the riddle.

If it's a riddle game, then I might well do so. You're playing against an opponent or in front of a judge who can consider and accept your reasoning.

If it's something like a challenge to get through a barrier, then I might well not. There are two possibilities: a) it's some sort of test where your ability to produce the "right" answer shows the "rightness" of your thinking according to the standards of the test-setter; or it's the magical equivalent of a password hint and reflects the idiosyncracies of, say, the mage who put a riddling lock on his inner sanctum, and he has no interest in letting other people in if they come up with a "fair" answer.

(Of course, the latter situation raises the specter that hovers over all uses of riddles: why the hell would anyone put them in in the first place? They're just too fallible to be used to actually guard something valuable. The most believable instances of riddles are where they weren't intended as such in the first place, but were just reminders or poetic statements in an idiom since lost.)


This one is way too (...uhm, english is not my native language) far fetched.

"Contrived" is probably the best match there. Or "strained".

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 08:17 AM
Doubt can also be cast.

Sorta related:
If you make a riddle that has several answers, (Knowingly or not)
Would you accept a "correct" answer, or only the one you thought of?

If I were actually putting that one in a game, I'd accept any of those answers, actually. As long as it amused me.

evildmguy
2009-08-06, 09:05 AM
Another problem with riddles is that they frequently give a bunch of vague hints that require you to have the same kind of lateral thinking as the person who made the riddle to understand, and because of the fact they love rhyming over clarity, you frequently get riddles where there are a few hints towards the "wrong" answer and the "right" answer is only hinted through stuff that may be a clue if you think the DM is was thinking of it at the time.

Yes, Yes Yes!!! A thousand times yes!

From my experience, riddles are either immediately known, or they won't get it. Now, that was in the past and with many players having laptops at the table, they could probably find it. Does that count?

In any case, I avoid riddles or I spell things out for the players and let them role play how their characters figure it out. I think it works out much better that way.

In general, that's what I don't like about riddles that I see today. They require lateral thinking and that takes training and being in that frame of mind to get them right. Or they require making assumptions, which is what allows for many correct answers.

edg

Cyrion
2009-08-06, 09:48 AM
He who made it didn't need it.
He who bought it didn't want it.
He who used it never knew it.

A Coffin

Dixieboy
2009-08-06, 09:55 AM
He who made it didn't need it.
He who bought it didn't want it.
He who used it never knew it.

A Coffin

Normal riddles like that doesn't work in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

Seeing as the dude who made it could be a zombie, or an otherwise reanimated dead.
He who bought it could be a vampire.
And well, for the last clue, both apply.

hewhosaysfish
2009-08-06, 10:02 AM
Man, that could be anything that can be "cast". Iron, a stone, a play, a broken bone.
....
Also, aspersions, a net, a fortune, your mind back, a glance...

Man, I can't believe that nobody in a whole forum full of gamers has said "a die" yet.

Claudius Maximus
2009-08-06, 03:37 PM
"Five elements there are, None i will accept
Except one alone, that i will respect
One of them betrayed me, as did it's sustenance
Darkness came over me, damn it's existance
The second i was denied, humiliated by it
All around and it mocked me, Bitternes i tasted
The third one abandoned me, left me in shambles
The fourth surrounded me, in illusions and tumbles
The fifth stayed with me, my precious holy one
Only in it's lonesome, it will avoid my death trap"

Any chance I could get this in the original Greek?

Milskidasith
2009-08-06, 03:40 PM
Yeah, since there are a ton of different answers for riddles, they are never good.

I rarely see good riddles, and in general, the shorter the riddle it is, the less confusing it is.

Navigator
2009-08-06, 03:45 PM
It really is a gift to have PCs that enjoy riddles, puzzles, and mystery. Any time I've put moral dilemmas or puzzles on the table, it is extremely unpopular. As a result of that, I have no successful riddles to share. Sorry for the useless post.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 03:57 PM
Moral dilemmas? Great!
Investigations? Wicked awesome!
Riddles? Wonk... wonk.... wooooooooonk.

Just personally speaking.

Elfin
2009-08-06, 04:32 PM
Personally, I love riddles, and think they're a great addition to any adventure...
But that's just me.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-06, 04:49 PM
This one is way too (...uhm, english is not my native language) far fetched.

That's why I put explanations there. If you don't get it, don't use it; if your players do and you don't, that's a problem on many levels.

quick_comment
2009-08-06, 04:54 PM
The other problem with riddles is that solving them is metagaming!

Do you really think that the 34 int wizard is going to take more than a moment's thought to solve any riddle you can put out? Of course not. Its the player who is stumped.

Really, riddles should be resolved by an intelligence check.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-08-06, 05:00 PM
Riddles normally suck, because they often require metagame thinking. But sometimes they rock. Played my wizard, Immitrex, I solved this one (out of character) in about 4 seconds, then tried to convince the rest of the group I was right -- the riddle was rigged to a deathtrap that would kill someone giving a wrong answer. I blurted out my answer after they couldn't agree, and I was right! Here is the riddle:

I am more evil than the deepest devil
More good than the highest celestial
If you eat me, you will die
The rich want me, the poor have me
What am I?

Milskidasith
2009-08-06, 05:08 PM
Riddles should probably be solved with an int/wisdom check, or at least get a pretty big hint. Also, stop trying to make them sound cool by forcing rhymes in that aren't good clues; that always makes things bad.

Moral dillemas and other out of combat things like that, however, interesting. Puzzles are too, because they can frequently have one solution that requires thinking to get to. Riddles... not so much. Too much focus on "what is the DM thinking and what lines are useless throwaways to rhyme" and not on actual thinking).

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-06, 05:08 PM
Riddles normally suck, because they often require metagame thinking. But sometimes they rock. Played my wizard, Immitrex, I solved this one (out of character) in about 4 seconds, then tried to convince the rest of the group I was right -- the riddle was rigged to a deathtrap that would kill someone giving a wrong answer. I blurted out my answer after they couldn't agree, and I was right! Here is the riddle:

I am more evil than the deepest devil
More good than the highest celestial
If you eat me, you will die
The rich want me, the poor have me
What am I?

Nothing! I've heard variations of this one before. I'm rather good at riddles. Really, don't challenge me with variations of classic riddles unless A.) it's REALLY different or B.) you're not aware that it's an oldie.
Not to be rude.

quick_comment
2009-08-06, 05:11 PM
Nothing! I've heard variations of this one before. I'm rather good at riddles. Really, don't challenge me with variations of classic riddles unless A.) it's REALLY different or B.) you're not aware that it's an oldie.
Not to be rude.

What have I got in my pocket?


Also, that riddle above doesnt work. The highest celestial is the devil. Everything is more good than him.

Typewriter
2009-08-06, 05:20 PM
"Forever closed yet opens wide to let the other come inside....One is broken yet wll be stronger, as the span grows ever longer."

Bonus points if you know where I'm stealing this from :)

Godskook
2009-08-06, 05:31 PM
Also, that riddle above doesnt work. The highest celestial is the devil. Everything is more good than him.

Is that true in D&D theology? I thought it was just Judeo-Christians that believed that. Besides, even going that way, he stopped being the highest 'celestial' the moment he was 'fired'.

Dixieboy
2009-08-06, 06:54 PM
Is that true in D&D theology? I thought it was just Judeo-Christians that believed that. Besides, even going that way, he stopped being the highest 'celestial' the moment he was 'fired'.

The devils are Angels who strayed from the path of good in their battle against demons according to some D&D lore.

Asmodeus is basically an uberangel, who was so good at fighting demons that he creeped the gods out.
He then tricked them into giving him his own plane, and pwned them with one of the best canon lines ever said in D&D "Read the fine print"

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 06:55 PM
Is that true in D&D theology? I thought it was just Judeo-Christians that believed that. Besides, even going that way, he stopped being the highest 'celestial' the moment he was 'fired'.

D&D draws heavily upon real world religion, mythology, and philosophy. The angels have always been a popular draw for secular fiction.

deuxhero
2009-08-06, 09:49 PM
And speaking of Tolken:
"What has no windows, doors, nor lid, yet golden treasure inside is hid?"
(Hint: its an Egg)

"A(n untaped) vein of gold" would be my guess.

mikeejimbo
2009-08-06, 09:56 PM
Do you really think that the 34 int wizard is going to take more than a moment's thought to solve any riddle you can put out? Of course not. Its the player who is stumped.

I disagree, sometimes even the smartest people will be stumped by riddles. Some riddles require thinking that doesn't necessarily correlate with high intelligence.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-06, 10:02 PM
"Forever closed yet opens wide to let the other come inside....One is broken yet wll be stronger, as the span grows ever longer."

Bonus points if you know where I'm stealing this from :)

I'm going to go with "a heart" on this one, but I'm beginning to see Milskidasith's point.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 10:03 PM
I'm going to go with "a heart" on this one, but I'm beginning to see Milskidasith's point.

http://www.kalvink.com/twain/files/ma-ti.gif
Heart? Heart? Did someone say heart? Oh god, I'm wanted again!

Zuki
2009-08-06, 10:27 PM
If you search for "The Netbook of Riddles," you'll find a text file with many classic examples in it, most of them with answers supplied. Here are two of my favorites, and their (un-included) answers.



I am, in truth, a yellow fork
From tables in the sky
By inadvertent fingers dropped
The awful cutlery.
Of mansions never quite disclosed
And never quite concealed,
The apparatus of the dark
To ignorance revealed.

Lightning. I don't think this one's too hard. It goes on for a while and gives a lot of visual clues. I like the extension of a fork of lightning as an actual physical item.

There are quite a few more in the same file. Some of them don't have answers listed, but for some, it's not to hard to guess at the answer.

For gaming purposes, I think a longer riddle is better, because it gives more clues. Also, poetry is fun.

Here's one, from a webcomic called Wapsi Square. Two different answers were acceptable:



I've never seen your face
Yet I kiss it ever day
You can see me all around you
In the treetops where I play


Sunshine and Wind were the two answers given.

Llama231
2009-08-06, 10:45 PM
Beware, what is this? :smalleek:

A dangerous chemical.
Colorless, scentless, tasteless.
All over the planet, everywhere.
Falls from the sky.
Kills millions every year.
As old as the planet.
Related to the cause of almost all illnesses.
Dissolves most anything.

If you still need help. :smallamused:

Main component of acid rain.
Everyone needs it, everyone is made of it.
Given to our food to make it grow.
Undetectable in water.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 10:45 PM
DHMO was way too obvious.

Llama231
2009-08-06, 10:58 PM
DHMO was way too obvious.

Would that be me? Da Happy Mentioner Overhead?

BobVosh
2009-08-06, 11:09 PM
I like my riddle. "What is big, red, and eats rocks?"

A big red rock eater!

PId6
2009-08-06, 11:16 PM
I like my riddle. "What is big, red, and eats rocks?"
Ooh, ooh, is it Clifford the Big Red Dog?

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 11:17 PM
Ooh, ooh, is it Clifford the Big Red Dog?

Great minds think alike.

Zuki
2009-08-06, 11:27 PM
I like my riddle. "What is big, red, and eats rocks?"

A big red rock eater!

For some reason, the answer that came to my mind was "Lava."

Jack_Simth
2009-08-06, 11:49 PM
I'm looking for good riddles for my D&D players. I'd like them to be good enough to pose a challenge but not cross the line into the realm of impossible or ridiculously hard.
You won't get what you're after checking with a bunch of strangers.

Riddles, like puzzles, have a glaringly obvious flaw for use in D&D:

In order for it to be "fun", it has to:
a) Be challenging for the people it's posed to
b) Be possible for the people it's posed to
c) Be posed to people who enjoy that type of challenge

The problem crops up in that a and b are not particularly easy to predict, vary for every individual, and there's a very strong temptation on the part of the puzzle-maker make one "right" answer (or some small set of right answers) and set up some form of punishment for any other answers.

So when you pose a riddle or puzzle as a DM, you've got a very fine line to walk, and the placement of that line is hard to see. You'll generally either get it solved immediately by someone who considers it obvious (which is dull), or it'll completely stump everyone at the table (which is frustrating, time-consuming, and boring). Only if you're a really good judge of your players is this useful in a game - so coming to a forum full of people you've never really met, who haven't ever really met your players isn't particularly useful, as we're not in a position to make that judgment call for you.

TL;DR: Bad idea. Don't do it!

SadisticFishing
2009-08-07, 12:00 AM
I agree with all posts saying it is a bad idea.

Also, exactly what sort of dungeon would actually have a riddle in it? Sphinxes and dragons, sure... But actual "kill you if you get it wrong"? Who would PUT that in a dungeon? Just put in a "kill you" instead! Sigh.

Gralamin
2009-08-07, 12:21 AM
You won't get what you're after checking with a bunch of strangers.

Riddles, like puzzles, have a glaringly obvious flaw for use in D&D:

In order for it to be "fun", it has to:
a) Be challenging for the people it's posed to
b) Be possible for the people it's posed to
c) Be posed to people who enjoy that type of challenge

The problem crops up in that a and b are not particularly easy to predict, vary for every individual, and there's a very strong temptation on the part of the puzzle-maker make one "right" answer (or some small set of right answers) and set up some form of punishment for any other answers.

So when you pose a riddle or puzzle as a DM, you've got a very fine line to walk, and the placement of that line is hard to see. You'll generally either get it solved immediately by someone who considers it obvious (which is dull), or it'll completely stump everyone at the table (which is frustrating, time-consuming, and boring). Only if you're a really good judge of your players is this useful in a game - so coming to a forum full of people you've never really met, who haven't ever really met your players isn't particularly useful, as we're not in a position to make that judgment call for you.

TL;DR: Bad idea. Don't do it!

I try to use riddles/puzzles at least once a campaign, usually when I've reached the point I know what I can expect from my players. I also try to allow player improvision - I'm willing to admit I didn't think of the answer a player may give.

I find the best Riddles/puzzles are set up in such a way that the player experiences through the campaign can help them answer, though this can be difficult to do.

That being said, I have come up with Riddle ideas that were created specifically because I knew the players didn't have the knowledge needed to figure it out, and they would be relying on knowledge checks, but thats mostly for one shots.

playswithfire
2009-08-07, 12:40 AM
Your players come to a green door, near which hang three keys: red, yellow and blue.

'Beyond this door,
there is moon, but no sun
and grass grows where flowers will not.
Only one key can pass.'


Trying to make a physical version of the Green Door riddle.
The yellow key will open it.


Red and blue either bring monsters or transport you randomly around the dungeon.

kamikasei
2009-08-07, 03:53 AM
Would that be me? Da Happy Mentioner Overhead?

Dihydrogen Monoxide.

mikeejimbo
2009-08-07, 07:09 AM
Dihydrogen Monoxide.

I prefer Hydrogen Hydroxide, myself.

Drakevarg
2009-08-07, 07:31 AM
I think my favorite riddle game was the one from the "Tempts Fate" bonus comics on Goblins.

Sentient door that tells you a riddle. If you give it a wrong answer, you die instantly. However... the door isn't locked.

Misdirection is fun.

Typewriter
2009-08-07, 07:36 AM
I'm going to go with "a heart" on this one, but I'm beginning to see Milskidasith's point.

The answer was actually 'A Chain'

Stolen from Sonic the Hedgehog. I never could have figured it out myself, but I see where they're coming from with it.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-07, 09:08 AM
Great minds think alike.

And you guys think the same way as my little brother...:smalleek:

Llama231
2009-08-07, 09:47 AM
Dihydrogen Monoxide.

That's what I thought. :smallamused:

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-07, 10:28 AM
The answer was actually 'A Chain'

Stolen from Sonic the Hedgehog. I never could have figured it out myself, but I see where they're coming from with it.

Eh?

"Forever closed yet opens wide to let the other come inside. One was broken but will be stronger as the span grows ever longer."

I can see it for the first half of the riddle, but a chain grows weaker the longer it gets (or the bigger around you make the hoops), if for no other reasons than the extra strain of its own weight and the increasing probability of an imperfection in one of the links. It also gets weaker after being broken due to metal fatigue, even if it's fixed or extended later.


http://www.kalvink.com/twain/files/ma-ti.gif
Heart? Heart? Did someone say heart? Oh god, I'm wanted again!

"Quickly, someone is polluting a DnD campaign with bad riddles! Go stop them!"

That should take care of him for a while.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-08-07, 10:50 AM
Nothing! I've heard variations of this one before. I'm rather good at riddles. Really, don't challenge me with variations of classic riddles unless A.) it's REALLY different or B.) you're not aware that it's an oldie.
Not to be rude.

Hey, just because you are expert riddle guy doesn't mean everyone else is. And as I said, nobody in our party could agree what the answer was.

Ninetail
2009-08-07, 10:27 PM
I am more evil than the deepest devil
More good than the highest celestial
If you eat me, you will die
The rich want me, the poor have me
What am I?

I had that one thrown at me recently, too.

My character stated that he knew that 'nothing' was the answer they were looking for, and then pointed out that the riddle was faulty on several levels:

* The poor don't have nothing. They can be said to have quite a lot of things, actually, and if they can be said to have something, then they obviously do not have nothing.

* The rich don't want nothing. Invariably, they want something. It might be material, it might be spiritual, it might be emotional, but they want something.

* My character was wearing a ring of sustenance (actually, a similar homebrewed magic item, but close enough). He had, in fact, eaten nothing for several years, and had not died.

I was about to go on, but the magical force that'd offered the riddle self-destructed due to "logic failure" at that point.

angus cotton
2009-08-07, 10:43 PM
Don't know if you want to call this a riddle or a puzzle or what. But, I DMed this into my campaign. The players came to a door with no locks nor any visible means to enter. All about the door stretching along the walls were various friezes depicting large faces with open mouths (similar to the faces you would see on Easter Island).

At any rate, a plaque above the door states:

"To pass, perform the following:FEED A FACE A BAD EGG"

After all the faces are drenched in rotten eggs, and after several party members have gotten sick eating several rotten eggs themselves, hopefully, one player should get the right idea that FEED A FACE A BAD EGG is actually musical notes. A DC 5 perform check later, and the door magically swings open. Alternatively, you can use FEED A FACE BAD BEEF.

PId6
2009-08-07, 10:47 PM
I was about to go on, but the magical force that'd offered the riddle self-destructed due to "logic failure" at that point.
That. Is. Awesome.

angus cotton
2009-08-07, 10:49 PM
A variant which should be spoken to the players to disguise the quotes:

"'What has four legs in the morning, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening' says I?"

The correct answer is "Sphynx". You will be surprised how many players get this wrong, because they instinctively blurt out "man" without bothering to register the last two words of the riddle.

AstralFire
2009-08-07, 11:03 PM
A variant which should be spoken to the players to disguise the quotes:

"'What has four legs in the morning, two legs at noon and three legs in the evening' says I?"

The correct answer is "Sphynx". You will be surprised how many players get this wrong, because they instinctively blurt out "man" without bothering to register the last two words of the riddle.

...That just sounds confusing, not clever. If I heard it all the way out without reading it, I'm not sure I'd get it.

In fact, instead of 'says I', shouldn't you append "this asks"? Or something else. "Says I" is often used as a speech mannerism for emphasis.


I was about to go on, but the magical force that'd offered the riddle self-destructed due to "logic failure" at that point.

Nicely done.

Saph
2009-08-07, 11:04 PM
I'm going to disagree with the people discouraging DMs from using riddles. One of the most successful sessions I've ever run was a "puzzle palace" adventure, where the PCs had to solve a threshold number of riddles, puzzles, and tricks to escape. There were four sets of four problems. Getting three out of four was a pass, getting four out of four got you a magic item as an extra prize.

The challenges were divided into riddles, tricks, lateral thinking exercises, and a small selection of combat ambushes to keep the PCs on their toes. Sixteen in total. It was so successful that I saved it to use as a one-off in later games, and every time I've run it it's been really really popular. (Run it four times so far.)

As a sample, here are two of the puzzles, one from the blue section, and one from the white.

Laboratory (Logic)

This room is a laboratory, stocked with all kinds of vials, bottles, materials, reagents, and components, scattered around stained and pockmarked benches. One bench catches your eye, being the only one that's absolutely clear, except for three conical flasks, small, medium, and large, marked 3, 5, and 8. The 8 flask is full of a hissing pink fluid. On the wall is a bracket, with an empty holder the size of a flask; on the wall next to it is carved the number 4.

Mechanics
The pink stuff is lethal. It'll eat through anything except the three flasks. I've never had a player dumb enough to stick a finger in it, so I haven't bothered statting up its effects. :smalltongue:
Solution
This is the classic Three Jugs Puzzle. Every player I've given it to has been able to solve it with some pencil and paper and a few minutes' work - it's one of those ones that most people have encountered before, and can work out if they haven't.

Music Room (Wisdom)

This room contains many instruments you recognise and even more you don't. A balcony running around the upper level of the room holds a music library with copies of thousands of works: The Paladin's Waltz, the March of the Demigods, Lathander's Joy, Through the Fields, the Walz of Selune, etc. The centre of the room is dominated by a grand piano. An inscription in gold on the piano reads: I have existed since the world's birth, yet I am no more than a month old. Play me.

Mechanics
You can call for a Perform check with this one, but it's probably unnecessary. The players have to figure out the answer to the riddle (doesn't take long) then match it to the right piece. Once they know the right question to ask, a DC 10 Knowledge check will get them the answer, and a simple search will get them the piece.
Solution
The answer to the riddle is the moon. The game's set in FR, so the moon goddess is Selune. Playing the Waltz of Selune on the piano will solve the puzzle.
And so on. There were four sets: blue (logic), green (wisdom), red (combat), and white (miscellaneous). The best team I've had so far scored 15 out of 16, pretty good going all in all. :)

- Saph

Milskidasith
2009-08-07, 11:09 PM
The thing is, the three jugs puzzle isn't really a riddle. Only riddles really get annoying, and only when they get confusing and overcomplicated. Even your riddle about the moon would probably be a bad one, because I'd overthink it; the moon hasn't been around since the beginning of the Earth.

The reason puzzles like the jug one, or the classic "flip one switch, the ones around it flip as well" or the light bulb puzzle, or other puzzles is that they require thinking, but there is a clear solution and you have to find it. With riddles, you have to find the solution for a vague question; which means multiple answers could work.

Saph
2009-08-07, 11:40 PM
The thing is, the three jugs puzzle isn't really a riddle. Only riddles really get annoying, and only when they get confusing and overcomplicated. Even your riddle about the moon would probably be a bad one, because I'd overthink it; the moon hasn't been around since the beginning of the Earth.

Bad one? Like I said, this adventure's been incredibly popular every time I've run it. I've yet to have someone complain about the puzzles; the reaction when they didn't figure a puzzle out has always been "Aargh, we should have thought of that! We were so close!"

Each time I've run this the music room puzzle generally occupies the party for five minutes tops. Out of five people, SOMEONE will figure out the answer, and from there it's not difficult to make the link to the piece they need to play.

It's actually the non-riddle puzzles that tend to drive the party crazy (though they still usually get most of them in the end - co-operative thinking does the trick).

- Saph

AstralFire
2009-08-07, 11:42 PM
I think the reason your riddles work is because they're not trying too hard to be stumpers, if that music one is any indication, and you give them an IC way to gain hints about it. It shows interaction with the game rather than being a superfluous, artificial construct.

On the whole I often see puzzles and riddles thrown into the most inappropriate and nonsensical places, on top of being done poorly. Hence my general aversion to them, and my leaning preference to investigations, mysteries, and other things that support multiple angles of approach more easily.

HamHam
2009-08-07, 11:56 PM
An idea:

Come up with some kind of ridiculous National Treasure / Da'Vinci Code level riddle but using DnD gods and mythology.

So like, the sun symbol in the middle of the mosaic indicates Pelor, who's other domains are Strength, Healing, and Good so if you triangulate using those symbols around the edge of the map you will find that they intersect over the picture of a greatsword, which clearly refers to the Stone Dragon style and thus the next clue can be found in the secret Stone Dragon school.

Allow knowledge checks to figure it out.

Saph
2009-08-07, 11:58 PM
I think the reason your riddles work is because they're not trying too hard to be stumpers, if that music one is any indication, and you give them an IC way to gain hints about it. It shows interaction with the game rather than being a superfluous, artificial construct.

On the whole I often see puzzles and riddles thrown into the most inappropriate and nonsensical places, on top of being done poorly. Hence my general aversion to them, and my leaning preference to investigations, mysteries, and other things that support multiple angles of approach more easily.

Well, yeah, but you can blend them together. Like the music room puzzle involves solving the riddle, making the connection to the piece, and then actually performing it (with accompanying hilarity if the player has dumped Charisma and put no ranks in Perform, as most do).

The thing is, D&D players generally like puzzles, so as long as you don't overdo them, riddles can have their place. It's the achievement thing. They might be annoyed while they're trying to solve it, but they're happy once they do.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 12:13 AM
Bad one? Like I said, this adventure's been incredibly popular every time I've run it. I've yet to have someone complain about the puzzles; the reaction when they didn't figure a puzzle out has always been "Aargh, we should have thought of that! We were so close!"

Each time I've run this the music room puzzle generally occupies the party for five minutes tops. Out of five people, SOMEONE will figure out the answer, and from there it's not difficult to make the link to the piece they need to play.

It's actually the non-riddle puzzles that tend to drive the party crazy (though they still usually get most of them in the end - co-operative thinking does the trick).

- Saph

As I said, I was probably overthinking it; I immediately thought "Moon" (It is a pretty consistent one month cycle, after all), but then I thought it didn't make sense because the moon came into being after the Earth. I didn't mean to offend you, and as always, if your players have fun that's all that matters; I simply don't like riddles because people tend to either over or underthink them. I was thinking something along the lines of sunlight, since it only lasts for maybe two thirds of the day anywhere but at the poles at max. That strictly fits the riddle while being a bit more precise than one month (but still less than one month), while the moon doesn't fit the first line at all.

As for non riddle puzzles, my reasoning for them being better is as follows:

With a riddle, you get a question and have to supply an answer. However, since it's a riddle, it generally has to be vague and confusing, or else it's just a question. That leads to player confusion and multiple answers being valid.

With puzzles, you already have the answer and have to find the right way of getting there. The "flip one switch, the surrounding switches flip" doesn't care if you figure it out by randomly flipping switches until you get the entire field off and then flip it on, work from the middle out, or put the solution in in one of the hundred different ways that works, it's still right. With a riddle, one of the hundred answers that fit the question is right, the rest are wrong.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-08, 12:15 AM
okay since a lot of people are saying riddles are bad I thought of one other one if we can keep it forum clean.

moral dilemmas. it's a classic villain thing to do to discourage the hero thereby weakening their confidence and killing them. or maybe it's just cliche.

EDIT: if you think riddles are still cool feel free to post them.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 12:17 AM
I believe people have already stated those are good if done well, however, it is pretty easy to do them badly (railroading them into choosing "kill this good guy directly or kill these innocents indirectly" for example, or having a Paladin fall for a series of events he couldn't have predicted happening due to his character giving money to a beggar who was later killed for his money by another beggar [cookie for the reference!])

Mystic Muse
2009-08-08, 12:21 AM
I believe people have already stated those are good if done well, however, it is pretty easy to do them badly (railroading them into choosing "kill this good guy directly or kill these innocents indirectly" for example, or having a Paladin fall for a series of events he couldn't have predicted happening due to his character giving money to a beggar who was later killed for his money by another beggar [cookie for the reference!])

star wars Knights of the old republic 2.

might not be what you were looking for but it's in there.

Saph
2009-08-08, 12:22 AM
As I said, I was probably overthinking it; I immediately thought "Moon" (It is a pretty consistent one month cycle, after all), but then I thought it didn't make sense because the moon came into being after the Earth. I didn't mean to offend you, and as always, if your players have fun that's all that matters; I simply don't like riddles because people tend to either over or underthink them. I was thinking something along the lines of sunlight, since it only lasts for maybe two thirds of the day anywhere but at the poles at max. That strictly fits the riddle while being a bit more precise than one month (but still less than one month), while the moon doesn't fit the first line at all.

Firstly, that's astronomical knowledge that a character in a fantasy world is highly unlikely to have (and isn't necessarily correct, either, given that you're not on Earth). Second, sunlight doesn't match with the 'month' reference, so that should be a tip-off that it's not the right answer. But in any case, it's not like there's a limit on guesses, so you can try sunlight if you want, there's no hurry. It's just that someone else will probably guess the right answer and solve it before too long.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 12:28 AM
Firstly, that's astronomical knowledge that a character in a fantasy world is highly unlikely to have (and isn't necessarily correct, either, given that you're not on Earth). Second, sunlight doesn't match with the 'month' reference, so that should be a tip-off that it's not the right answer. But in any case, it's not like there's a limit on guesses, so you can try sunlight if you want, there's no hurry. It's just that someone else will probably guess the right answer and solve it before too long.

See, this is exactly the point I've been trying to make. Sunlight, by all means, fits the description exactly; while it isn't exactly a month, it still fits the "no more than a month" line. However, it isn't the answer the DM is looking for, so it's wrong. At least there is no limit on guesses; when you start getting penalized for wrong answers, it gets really, really annoying. The astronomical knowledge, I can kind of understand, but since D&D doesn't actually state how long the lunar cycles are anywhere (do they?), you have to assume some degree of astronomical knowledge, and again, depending on how much the DM thinks you should know, an answer that seems correct is incorrect or vice versa.

Also, sunlight does match with the month reference, since it says no more than a month. If it had said "almost a month old" or something, I wouldn't have guessed sunlight.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-08, 12:35 AM
I believe people have already stated those are good if done well, however, it is pretty easy to do them badly (railroading them into choosing "kill this good guy directly or kill these innocents indirectly" for example, or having a Paladin fall for a series of events he couldn't have predicted happening due to his character giving money to a beggar who was later killed for his money by another beggar [cookie for the reference!])

It's pretty easy to avoid doing it badly too, though. Just read the moral problem section in Book of Exalted Deeds, and then make sure that you don't follow any of its guidelines in any way.

Also, the hidden consequences angle can be amusing (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/27/), if you don't penalize the players for it.

Saph
2009-08-08, 12:37 AM
Also, sunlight does match with the month reference, since it says no more than a month. If it had said "almost a month old" or something, I wouldn't have guessed sunlight.

General rule for riddles: If it could by strict logical definition fit the reference, but doesn't match it neatly or sensibly, it's probably the wrong answer. If the answer was 'sunlight' there would be no reason to use the word 'month' in the question. It's not about finding every answer that could possibly fit the question, it's about finding the answer that best fits the question. You already guessed the right answer on the first try, so it can't be that hard.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 12:42 AM
Yeah, but moral dilemmas are even worse with railroading DMs than a RRing DM giving you a riddle would be; a bad riddle will eventually have the DM get fed up with you and have *insert consequence/DMPC assistance here* happen, but a bad moral dillema will pretty much result in you having some innocents die no matter what. However, good moral dilemmas are easier to make than good riddles.

For example, have your PCs be hungry (and not have magic items that keep them eternally full), and going through a small town. If they don't get food, then they may starve on the way to get to *insert level appropriate problem here* to save the people of the small town. But if they do take the food, they may starve the very citizens they need to protect. Do the PCs take the risk of starving themselves, or hope the civilians can survive on their own and get more food somehow?

As for riddles... I really can't make them up that well. I can, but I always find the riddles to have too many answers, and the few riddles I did create stumped my friends and take more effort than writing dilemmas.

EDIT: As for the riddle Saph posted, I can't see how the moon fits more logically into it; the Moon is directly contradicted by the riddle, (unless the official D&D creation myths or your campaign state something different) while sunlight only doesn't fit exactly. So I kind of thought sunlight was a better answer.

Mystic Muse
2009-08-08, 02:15 AM
sorry. guess I wasn't being clear when I said moral dillemas. more like discouraging monologues the villains give that make the player question why they're doing what they're doing.

TheThan
2009-08-08, 02:18 AM
Like I said earlier,

Riddles are fine if you use them well. A good example is in Lord of the rings,
“Speak friend and enter”,
Its a pretty simple riddle, figure out what the right word is, (which we all know is friend) and the door opens. Yet it stopped the fellowship cold for some time trying figure out what the right word was, not realizing there is a clue in the riddle.

The problem lies with riddles that are vague or eccentric in thought. Many riddles can easily have multiple answers. You have to be able to glean an answer from the riddle itself, when the clues to the riddle can have multiple answers; the game bogs down as they try to figure it out. Just look at how many different answers to some of the riddles in this thread there is already.

Like I said before, some times the players are simply on the wrong track, or come up with something completely unexpected (well their the player’s its their job). So what I suggest is when you choose to throw a riddle into your game, take the time to write out all the possible answers you can come up with aside from the right one. If there are more than say two, then your riddle is probably not going to work the way you want it to. Or you can simply take these answers, pick a few and use them as alternative right answers. That way you don’t slow the game down and make players loose interest in the game.

PId6
2009-08-08, 02:29 AM
A good example is in Lord of the rings,
“Speak friend and enter”,
Its a pretty simple riddle
These guys disagree. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=680)

Saph
2009-08-08, 02:33 AM
EDIT: As for the riddle Saph posted, I can't see how the moon fits more logically into it; the Moon is directly contradicted by the riddle, (unless the official D&D creation myths or your campaign state something different) while sunlight only doesn't fit exactly. So I kind of thought sunlight was a better answer.

For the love of Pelor! It's not contradicted! It's-! Oh, I give up.

Anyway, the thing to remember about riddles is that everyone at the table can try and solve them at once. So they're usually easier than they seem. Even if you can't solve it, as long as it's not too difficult, someone else will probably get the answer.

Usually I find riddles get solved much faster than the DM expects. I've been in more than one game where someone has told the DM the answer before he's even finished reading out the question. :)

- Saph

The Random NPC
2009-08-08, 04:52 AM
To the people who say Saph's riddle contradicts itself, there is at least one myth that I know of that has the moon being eaten and recreated every cycle. If you take into consideration the astronomical knowledge of most D&D settings, no one knows when the moon got there, so they assume it has always been there. And since it is a fantasy game, most myths are true (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMythsAreTrue).

evildmguy
2009-08-08, 10:40 AM
What I also don't like about riddles, as a corollary to my previous post, is that most of the time, the riddles are being presented to the *player* not the *character*. Certainly there can be exceptions to this but that's what I have seen and done myself.

What happens, then, is the DM forces metagaming on the group because the characters might not know the idea behind the logic but the players do.

I once did the idea of eighty one very similar looking/feeling stones and a scale in front of a door and the door has a slot. The scale works four times and the slot in the door wants the heaviest stone.

Now, the general idea behind the riddle is mostly good. The characters probably know about scales and figure out the door wants the heaviest stone. However, this stopped them cold. Dead stop to the campaign. It took an augury spell to give them the clue needed after nearly a half hour of them being frustrated. Further, they kept asking why the scales stopped after four tries. I had no good answer to that. Why would anyone waste magic to make the scale stop working? Further, if they did, doesn't that mean it can only be answered once and then the scales are gone?

As another example, I was playing in a campaign and we knew some riddles would happen. I would rate them as okay. Essentially, there were the full range of riddles, from logic, to chess puzzles, to tricky riddles and others, about eight in all. The only bad one was the chess puzzle because the DM wanted his answer, not realizing there might be more than one. Further, he was challenging the players again, not the characters. My solution would have been to allow the players to say, "my character knows chess and has a 24 INT, so sets up the solution" and either allow it, or give an INT check to finish it. It allowed the player to figure out what was needed but then let the character solve it, as they would be better at it than me.

So, my point with all of this is that riddles are dependent not only on the players wanting to solve riddles but also knowing the tricks to riddles. It's not hard to do but when you throw a riddle at them with no clue it was coming (or not asking the players if they would be interested in that) it can bring the game to a stop.

edg

evildmguy
2009-08-08, 10:44 AM
To the people who say Saph's riddle contradicts itself, there is at least one myth that I know of that has the moon being eaten and recreated every cycle. If you take into consideration the astronomical knowledge of most D&D settings, no one knows when the moon got there, so they assume it has always been there. And since it is a fantasy game, most myths are true (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMythsAreTrue).

The problem with this is that it depends on *player* knowledge, not *character* knowledge.

My group and I have NOT read the same fantasy books. That gives us a very different perspective on fantasy and what to expect. Further, I know some myths but not all and same for my players and we only cross over in a few areas. What that means is that we all have different ideas and expectations and thoughts about myths. There is no "common" ground because we know different myths!

So, I am not arguing that your knowledge would help, if my players don't have that idea, what then? It usually brings the play to a halt.

Again, do we allow them to use google, as they have laptops and I have a wireless network? Even then, the challenge is to the player and his Google-Fu rather than what the character knows.

I am not saying riddles are bad. I am merely saying to talk with the players and see if they want them or not. Further, ask them what kind they like. If they aren't interested, it won't work.

edg

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-08, 08:19 PM
Hey, just because you are expert riddle guy doesn't mean everyone else is. And as I said, nobody in our party could agree what the answer was.
Insert non-seriousness. I probably should have added :smalltongue: or "Well, not seriously" to it.


For the love of Pelor! It's not contradicted! It's-! Oh, I give up.
Pelor? Personally, he's a bit too non-lawful for me. Go Bahamut!
Also, :smalltongue:
But to get back on track, it's contradicted by some mythology AND real-world astronomy. So, you have to explain your world's creation. Some worlds don't even HAVE one moon, or one with phases.

rokar4life
2009-08-08, 08:44 PM
I can eat, but I can never be full.
I can be felt, but I can never be touched.
I can die, but I can never live.

I am form without substance.
I am protection without safety.
I am day without sun.

My giver was cursed
My followers are feared
My name is a warning

Of all the destroyers I am the greatest
For I bring the inevitable end of all.
Who am I?

the Tarrasque

Assassin89
2009-08-08, 09:10 PM
How about this riddle?

When this word is uttered, it is broken. What am I?
Silence

Played about by Kings, made fun of by fools. This game has no true victory. What am I?
War

Tar Palantir
2009-08-08, 09:39 PM
One of my personal favorites for a relatively simple one that everyone and their grandmother hasn't already heard.

First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?

rokar4life
2009-08-08, 09:44 PM
One of my personal favorites for a relatively simple one that everyone and their grandmother hasn't already heard.

First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?

it's not time, is it, no, that doesnt make sense, AAAHHHH MY HEAD

rokar4life
2009-08-08, 09:45 PM
One of my personal favorites for a relatively simple one that everyone and their grandmother hasn't already heard.

First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?

it's not time, is it, no, that doesnt make sense, AAAHHHH MY HEAD

edit:a drop pod assault?

Blue Ghost
2009-08-08, 10:42 PM
One of my personal favorites for a relatively simple one that everyone and their grandmother hasn't already heard.

First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?

Sound/an echo?

PId6
2009-08-08, 10:53 PM
First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?
My creepy ex-girlfriend?

quick_comment
2009-08-08, 10:59 PM
First I'm here, then back again, and then I'm gone, til you call me again. What am I?

Gate-raped efreeti?

Saph
2009-08-08, 11:17 PM
Pelor? Personally, he's a bit too non-lawful for me. Go Bahamut!
Also, :smalltongue:
But to get back on track, it's contradicted by some mythology AND real-world astronomy. So, you have to explain your world's creation. Some worlds don't even HAVE one moon, or one with phases.

:haley: "Gods, it's frustrating how Lawful you people are!"

A riddle is not a math problem. There's not one 100% correct answer and an infinite number of 100% wrong answers. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It gets you into the habit of thinking in different ways and using different assumptions.

Those saying "But there could be other answers, so you should give five extra paragraphs of information until every other possible answer has been ruled out" are missing the point. If it was that simple there wouldn't be any challenge in the first place!

And YES, riddles and puzzles challenge the player, not the character. Again, this is not necessarily a bad thing. It can get the players more involved with the game, instead of just rolling dice.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 12:04 AM
:haley: "Gods, it's frustrating how Lawful you people are!"

A riddle is not a math problem. There's not one 100% correct answer and an infinite number of 100% wrong answers. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It gets you into the habit of thinking in different ways and using different assumptions.

This reminds me of the riddle; what's green, talks, and hangs on the wall?

It's a herring; it's painted green and nailed to the wall. The talking was just to throw you off. Riddles aren't math problems, but when a player comes up with an answer that makes more sense than yours (unless you specifically stated the creation myth of your world), you can't say it's wrong because it doesn't make sense.

I'm not telling to add more detail; that frequently gets in the way. I'm saying to make sure that the answer actually makes sense. The moon is contradicted by the riddle. With a simple rephrasing into "I have existed for centuries, but I live for barely four weeks at a time" you get rid of sunlight as an answer while also making the moon be a valid answer.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 12:16 AM
Multiple answers are only an issue if the puzzle absolute hinges on it being a specific one for no apparent reason. His given example provides a definite anchor for it to be the moon, in-world even (by using Selune.)

Saph
2009-08-09, 12:17 AM
I'm not telling to add more detail; that frequently gets in the way. I'm saying to make sure that the answer actually makes sense. The moon is contradicted by the riddle.

Yes, Mils. You believe the moon is contradicted by the riddle. You've told me this three times. I understood you the first time. You can stop repeating it now.

Random832
2009-08-09, 12:48 AM
But you're refusing to acknowledge that it's a problem - the whole point of this thread is what is a good riddle and what is a bad riddle, and a riddle for which the "right" answer is flat-out wrong is a bad riddle by any reasonable definition.

That someone happens to guess the "right" answer doesn't make it a good riddle, it just means that someone's thought process matched that of the person who came up with the riddle.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 01:57 AM
Ironically, the whole purpose of a riddle is that it's supposed to be fun, or an excuse for a sphinx to eat you, but we'll stick with fun for now.

So much hate has been leveled at them in this thread that I'm convinced that a riddle is more like a joke than a puzzle. No matter how good or clever it is, someone's going to hate it and someone isn't going to get it.

For instance, consider this:

Two men go hunting in the woods, and as they do so, one of them suddenly gasps, clutches his chest, and falls over, lying very still.

The other man panics and calls 911. "911? I think my friend is dead! Oh my God! He just fell over clutching his chest and he's dead!"

The 911 operator responds: "Please remain calm, sir. First, make sure that he's actually dead."

The phone goes silent for a bit. The operator hears two gunshots, and then the man comes back on the phone, saying, "Ok, what next?"

If your reaction to this classic joke is "Waaaaaaaiiiiit a minute. The 911 operator would never phrase her instructions like that!" Then I think I see what the problem is. You have missed the fargling point. Allowing a bit of poetic license and relaxing, taking a deep breath, and reminding yourself that it's a game may increase your enjoyment of riddles.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 02:08 AM
"Two people wrecked your bike with a crowbar and a bat. One of them wasnt me"

Origomar
2009-08-09, 02:12 AM
From the beginning of eternity
To the end of time and space
To the beginning of every end
And the end of every place.
What am I?


i love this riddle.
if anyone asks that what has 4 legs in the mornin riddle im going to pop them on the head.

The letter "E"

thanks for telling me how to do it.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 02:13 AM
Ironically, the whole purpose of a riddle is that it's supposed to be fun, or an excuse for a sphinx to eat you, but we'll stick with fun for now.

So much hate has been leveled at them in this thread that I'm convinced that a riddle is more like a joke than a puzzle. No matter how good or clever it is, someone's going to hate it and someone isn't going to get it.

For instance, consider this:

Two men go hunting in the woods, and as they do so, one of them suddenly gasps, clutches his chest, and falls over, lying very still.

The other man panics and calls 911. "911? I think my friend is dead! Oh my God! He just fell over clutching his chest and he's dead!"

The 911 operator responds: "Please remain calm, sir. First, make sure that he's actually dead."

The phone goes silent for a bit. The operator hears two gunshots, and then the man comes back on the phone, saying, "Ok, what next?"

If your reaction to this classic joke is "Waaaaaaaiiiiit a minute. The 911 operator would never phrase her instructions like that!" Then I think I see what the problem is. You have missed the fargling point. Allowing a bit of poetic license and relaxing, taking a deep breath, and reminding yourself that it's a game may increase your enjoyment of riddles.

The big difference between that and a riddle is that, well, the thing you mentioned isn't a riddle, it's a joke. Riddles are supposed to be clever and require thought; instead they are generally arbitrary and require you to think like the DM. Jokes generally are just that; jokes.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 02:16 AM
i dont know how to do that spoiler thing where you click on show for it to pop up so..

For future reference, you create a spoiler by typing [Spoiler] *Stuff you want to spoiler* [/Spooler], except that you spell 'spoiler' correctly in the second tag. You put whatever you want spoilered between the two tags.

Also, if you see a poster do something neat, and you think "Gee, I'd sure like to do that, but I don't know how," a good thing to do is click the "quote" button, read their post inside the quote tags, and see what they did to make it happen.


The big difference between that and a riddle is that, well, the thing you mentioned isn't a riddle, it's a joke. Riddles are supposed to be clever and require thought; instead they are generally arbitrary and require you to think like the DM. Jokes generally are just that; jokes.

I know the difference between a joke and a riddle. :smallannoyed: The problem arises when everything in a fictional abstract construct designed solely for your amusement has to match your perception of reality and knowledge of real world physics, chemistry, and astronomy (catgirls beware!) to be "fun."

Just a simple riddle - "Here, in this place, you swallow me, yet were I more, I could swallow you." The answer is pretty obviously water (yes, it could be any liquid, nothingness, and probably several other things, whatever). It's a decent enough riddle. A bit of flavor to spice up a dungeon - especially if placed with like riddles. If your players are exceptionally dense, you could provide material clues.

But *gasp* water, being a liquid and not a living organism with a digestive tract, can't actually swallow anything. This means that the riddle isn't scientifically accurate. Guess it's terrible.

Really, I think at this point you'd be better off just stating that you, personally, don't like riddles (we know already, but you can say it again if you want), and leaving it at that. The only thing I want to know is how you ever make it through an encounter, because at some point, you have to think the same way the DM does. If the DM doesn't think it's possible for you to resolve an encounter in the manner you've chosen, you can't do it. Why is this a problem for riddles and not everything in DnD?

Saph
2009-08-09, 04:23 AM
But you're refusing to acknowledge that it's a problem - the whole point of this thread is what is a good riddle and what is a bad riddle, and a riddle for which the "right" answer is flat-out wrong is a bad riddle by any reasonable definition.

That someone happens to guess the "right" answer doesn't make it a good riddle, it just means that someone's thought process matched that of the person who came up with the riddle.

Perhaps part of the point of riddles is learning to think in a different way?

Talic
2009-08-09, 04:30 AM
Riddles are exactly that. The answer is obvious, from a certain point of view. Look at the Hobbit:

"Box without hinges, key, or lid,
Yet golden treasure inside is hid"

An Egg.

Alternately:

"The answer to this,
Strange as can be,
The greater it grows,
The less you see."

Darkness

In both instances, if you think about the puzzle from the right point of view, they're obvious. If not, they can be devilishly hard.

Cespenar
2009-08-09, 04:47 AM
I guess the people who get annoyed by such riddles think that way because they feel their effort of logical thinking was in vain.

To give a rather bad metaphor, take a duel of some knight and a rogue. The knight is more skilled and experienced in battles than the rogue, and should probably prevail, but the latter pulls off a really unorthodox trick and beats the knight.

Obviously the knight represents logical thinking and rogue lateral thinking (or whatever you feel the riddles symbolize).

Now there's two issues with this.

1. A riddle is very unlike a duel. You are not beaten by the riddle. It's not that you aren't smart enough. It's just a riddle.

2. Despite that, if you fail to overcome this feeling, if you really feel that riddles are a challenge that you dare not lose, then accept this one loss and start "working" on your lateral thinking, find and solve lots of riddles, do things that would improve your creativity, etc.

Either way, this should not be an issue. It's just a gorram riddle!

Talic
2009-08-09, 04:58 AM
Exactly. I generally disdain the "Knight" riddles. Why? They're logic puzzles. I see no need to sit my players down, get involved in weaving my story, then hand them a Sudoku puzzle and tell them to solve it.

The "rogue" riddle, or lateral thinking riddle, that's the one I want. That's the riddle that the creative will best, and I love creative players.

The Random NPC
2009-08-09, 05:55 AM
Riddles can be fun, but you have to know your group. I haven't found many people who enjoy being stumped for hours on end, as my party was in one campaign we played. Fortunately, we did enjoy it, and kicked ourselves because we had come up with the answer, but never said it.

And be prepared to allow an int check or something, because although you may not like having your painstakingly prepared riddles solved with a single roll of the die, you players probably won't like it if they have to spend a session or two guessing at the right answer.

Talic
2009-08-09, 06:17 AM
Riddles can be fun, but you have to know your group. I haven't found many people who enjoy being stumped for hours on end, as my party was in one campaign we played. Fortunately, we did enjoy it, and kicked ourselves because we had come up with the answer, but never said it.

And be prepared to allow an int check or something, because although you may not like having your painstakingly prepared riddles solved with a single roll of the die, you players probably won't like it if they have to spend a session or two guessing at the right answer.

Riddles are best used in optional areas. The fact that the players can bypass the area makes it their choice. I like using Cipher wheels that must be aligned to the answer as an additional key for a portal, personally.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-09, 07:16 AM
This reminds me of the riddle; what's green, talks, and hangs on the wall?

It's a herring; it's painted green and nailed to the wall. The talking was just to throw you off. Riddles aren't math problems, but when a player comes up with an answer that makes more sense than yours (unless you specifically stated the creation myth of your world), you can't say it's wrong because it doesn't make sense.

I'm not telling to add more detail; that frequently gets in the way. I'm saying to make sure that the answer actually makes sense. The moon is contradicted by the riddle. With a simple rephrasing into "I have existed for centuries, but I live for barely four weeks at a time" you get rid of sunlight as an answer while also making the moon be a valid answer.
Another answer misght be a green painting with Magic Mouth cast on it.


The big difference between that and a riddle is that, well, the thing you mentioned isn't a riddle, it's a joke. Riddles are supposed to be clever and require thought; instead they are generally arbitrary and require you to think like the DM. Jokes generally are just that; jokes.
It's the same general idea, much like, say, black and green dragons. Both are evil dragons that breathe acid and can't be hurt by it. Some of their more "minor" abilities are different, but they are much the same. Even more so if they're both NE.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 10:20 AM
real world physics, chemistry, and astronomy[/I] (catgirls beware!) to be "fun."

Just a simple riddle - "Here, in this place, you swallow me, yet were I more, I could swallow you." The answer is pretty obviously water (yes, it could be any liquid, nothingness, and probably several other things, whatever). It's a decent enough riddle. A bit of flavor to spice up a dungeon - especially if placed with like riddles. If your players are exceptionally dense, you could provide material clues.

But *gasp* water, being a liquid and not a living organism with a digestive tract, can't actually swallow anything. This means that the riddle isn't scientifically accurate. Guess it's terrible.

Really, I think at this point you'd be better off just stating that you, personally, don't like riddles (we know already, but you can say it again if you want), and leaving it at that. The only thing I want to know is how you ever make it through an encounter, because at some point, you have to think the same way the DM does. If the DM doesn't think it's possible for you to resolve an encounter in the manner you've chosen, you can't do it. Why is this a problem for riddles and not everything in DnD?

God I love strawmen. I don't need it to match real world physics, I just need it to be consistent. If a riddle says "it is definitely not X" and then the answer is X, it's annoying. Saph's riddle, for instance, relies on player knowledge of the real world. Unless the lunar cycles and the creation myth were included in her world, you have to assume real world astronomical knowledge to know the moon "lives" for a month at a time, but you also can't use that same knowledge to know that in many creation myths and the real world to know the moon hasn't existed since the earth started. If the riddle contradicts itself, bad. If it's vague, but at least it leads to one answer or the DM is OK with other answers that make sense, good enough.

Your water riddle isn't contradicted by itself; it's just a metaphor. I can understand metaphors in riddles (did you see me complaining about Saph saying the moon "lived?"); otherwise, it's just going to be a vague question. But if you had a line saying "composed of hydrogen, and hydrogen alone" then water would be a stupid answer. A metaphor is fine, something that directly contradicts things is not. (Also, I'd like to point out that swallow, by dictionary definition, can include being consumed as if by digestion, I.E. swallowed by water.)

The second part is another strawman. I hate it if the DM railroads us by forcing us to do what he says. The system is designed to allow you multiple ways to do things, so if your DM limits them, then I'd start making choo choo noises.*

*This all depends on how specific we are talking. If the plot important amulet can only be destroyed by some epic level wizard we have to reach, fair enough. If we can only defeat the goblin village by pure combat and not by, say, burning it down or poisoning their water, then it's choo choo time.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 10:56 AM
God I love strawmen. I don't need it to match real world physics, I just need it to be consistent. If a riddle says "it is definitely not X" and then the answer is X, it's annoying. Saph's riddle, for instance, relies on player knowledge of the real world. Unless the lunar cycles and the creation myth were included in her world, you have to assume real world astronomical knowledge to know the moon "lives" for a month at a time, but you also can't use that same knowledge to know that in many creation myths and the real world to know the moon hasn't existed since the earth started. If the riddle contradicts itself, bad. If it's vague, but at least it leads to one answer or the DM is OK with other answers that make sense, good enough.

Your water riddle isn't contradicted by itself; it's just a metaphor. I can understand metaphors in riddles (did you see me complaining about Saph saying the moon "lived?"); otherwise, it's just going to be a vague question. But if you had a line saying "composed of hydrogen, and hydrogen alone" then water would be a stupid answer. A metaphor is fine, something that directly contradicts things is not. (Also, I'd like to point out that swallow, by dictionary definition, can include being consumed as if by digestion, I.E. swallowed by water.)

The second part is another strawman. I hate it if the DM railroads us by forcing us to do what he says. The system is designed to allow you multiple ways to do things, so if your DM limits them, then I'd start making choo choo noises.*

*This all depends on how specific we are talking. If the plot important amulet can only be destroyed by some epic level wizard we have to reach, fair enough. If we can only defeat the goblin village by pure combat and not by, say, burning it down or poisoning their water, then it's choo choo time.

The first part is indeed a strawman, and I knew it was when I posted it. Primarily I just wanted you to see your reaction to it to get a better idea of your argument. It leads into the second part, which is, in fact, not a strawman, but a cold, hard, logical (if oversimplified) fact. At some point, the DM must acknowledge that what the players are doing could work if it's going to work at all.

It is true that if the DM limits this to one choice out of many that would otherwise make sense, then he's railroading the group and is a bad DM.

My point, then, is that the DM has to be flexible and well-prepared for player solutions to encounters, and perhaps even fill them in on the relevent campaign world data to allow them all of the options that they would realistically have. And yet, the players still, at some point, have to do something that even the best DM in the world deems reasonable or workable in order to solve the problem presented to them. This established, then why is it so hard to expect the DM to do so with riddles as well? Why is it such a bad thing for a solution that the players come up with not to work because of a minor bump in the real world/campaign world transition? Why is a riddle a failure if the players have to think in some way other than how they usually think?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that no one on this thread thinks that a riddle with a zillion possible answers, of which only one is acceptable to the DM, is a good idea. No one thinks that a riddle that contradicts itself is a good idea. No one thinks that a riddle that sacrifices clarity for a rhyme scheme is a good idea. But a riddle that forces you to stretch yourself a little, maybe think about things outside the box or how someone else, the person making the riddle, thinks about them is a good idea, so long as it's achievable.

Yes, it's a fine line, but so is DMing in general. Just as any DM can make a terrible riddle, so can any DM make a terrible railroaded encounter.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 10:59 AM
The first part is indeed a strawman, and I knew it was when I posted it. Primarily I just wanted you to see your reaction to it to get a better idea of your argument. It leads into the second part, which is, in fact, not a strawman, but a cold, hard, logical (if oversimplified) fact. At some point, the DM must acknowledge that what the players are doing could work if it's going to work at all.

It is true that if the DM limits this to one choice out of many that would otherwise make sense, then he's railroading the group and is a bad DM.

My point, then, is that the DM has to be flexible and well-prepared for player solutions to encounters, and perhaps even fill them in on the relevent campaign world data to allow them all of the options that they would realistically have. And yet, the players still, at some point, have to do something that even the best DM in the world deems reasonable or workable in order to solve the problem presented to them. This established, then why is it so hard to expect the DM to do so with riddles as well? Why is it such a bad thing for a solution that the players come up with not to work because of a minor bump in the real world/campaign world transition? Why is a riddle a failure if the players have to think in some way other than how they usually think?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that no one on this thread thinks that a riddle with a zillion possible answers, of which only one is acceptable to the DM, is a good idea. No one thinks that a riddle that contradicts itself is a good idea. No one thinks that a riddle that sacrifices clarity for a rhyme scheme is a good idea. But a riddle that forces you to stretch yourself a little, maybe think about things outside the box or how someone else, the person making the riddle, thinks about them is a good idea, so long as it's achievable.

Yes, it's a fine line, but so is DMing in general. Just as any DM can make a terrible riddle, so can any DM make a terrible railroaded encounter.

The third paragraph is basically exactly what I'm saying. The difference is that I don't think Saph's riddle is a good one (unless the creation myth of the world was explained), while you seem to. A riddle that stretches your thinking is fine; it's just easier to do it as a puzzle and (from my experience) also easier to judge your players aptitude with puzzles.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 11:03 AM
The third paragraph is basically exactly what I'm saying. The difference is that I don't think Saph's riddle is a good one (unless the creation myth of the world was explained), while you seem to. A riddle that stretches your thinking is fine; it's just easier to do it as a puzzle and (from my experience) also easier to judge your players aptitude with puzzles.

Are we seriously only disagreeing on one riddle? Shows what I get for posting after 2 a.m.

I kind of figured the creation myth would have been explained, though. It's Schrodinger's riddle! It is both good and bad until we find out how good the DM delivering it is!

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:05 AM
Are we seriously only disagreeing on one riddle? Shows what I get for posting after 2 a.m.

I kind of figured the creation myth would have been explained, though. It's Schrodinger's riddle! It is both good and bad until we find out how good the DM delivering it is!

Considering the fact you defended Saph's riddle (or seemed to) and your final paragraph is essentially what I've been trying to say, yes, it appears so. So we can put this behind us, I guess.

waterpenguin43
2009-08-09, 11:19 AM
What is more powerful than the gods,
More wiked than the devils,
The rich man needs it,
The poor man has it,
And it will kill you if you eat it?

Nothing, of course.

Here is my contribution (Only the first bit of the first line is true outside of D and D):
Though I never sleep, all but my mother has a bed,
I change is shape and size, all throughout the day,
There are many brains inside me but I do not have a head,
and if you are not careful you might not find you're way.
What am I?
The ocean.

Blue Ghost
2009-08-09, 11:20 AM
No, the answer is clearly Pun-Pun.

PId6
2009-08-09, 11:22 AM
No, the answer is clearly Pun-Pun.
I'll give you 4/5, but the poor man has it?

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:24 AM
I'll give you 4/5, but the poor man has it?

Pun-Punhood can be acquired without actually having much wealth.

Dixieboy
2009-08-27, 01:16 AM
Pun-Punhood can be acquired without actually having much wealth.

It says "Has it" though.

Maybe Pun-pun is the cheapest mercenary evar?

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 01:34 AM
Twas' in the wood I got it,
So I sat me down to seek it.
Alas I could not find it.
So I took it home instead.

The Answer is of course, a splinter

I like that one!

Thajocoth
2009-08-27, 01:36 AM
A party of ours wound up in a Sphinx's underground library. We could ignore her and leave, but if we stayed and answered riddles, she'd give us more information about what we were next walking into. The answers were all items in the library. We could only stay in the library X time, and wrong answers cost time, as did searching the library.

The animal she could stand was a stuffed bear. She found it bearable.
The object that yearns was PINE furniture.
There WAS a painting of a red herring. It was not the correct answer to anything.

Too bad I forgot the other two... The riddles were fun. Also, we got library cards to teleport back with in the future.