[3.5] Help my friend optimize her build!

[rezplz]

So I've always been a casual player who usually likes to keep my character concepts simple. One of my friends that I play with decided to try something new, though - a ranger who chucks daggers. Problem is, her character isn't very effective, so I was looking into ways to help her out.

Here's her stats: Ranger 10/Rogue1

STR:13
DEX: 17 (19)
CON: 11 (13)
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Equipment: mwk longsword
regular daggers (she needs to get some enchantments on those. Maybe returning daggers?)
darts
Ring of sustenence
Ring of protection +1
cloak of resistance +2
Boots of elvenkind
Rose Ioun stone
Gloves of dex+2
Bracers of health+2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Chain shirt +2 (Or it might be a mithral chainmail, not sure)


Her feats are:
Weapon focus (dagger)
Precise shot
Rapid shot
point blank shot
many shot
quick draw

Favored enemy of human
Orc
and undead





Try to keep to mostly core stuff - our group is mostly casual and we don't know a whole lot about non-core, although we're starting to look into it.

[vampire2948]

Looked at poison? Coating the daggers in doses of Constitution poison, or any of the other myriad varieties could vastly increase her worth to the party - depending on what you fight.

Also - does it have to be daggers? Crossbows / Bows have better damage, cheaper ammunition, and it is easier to enchant one crossbow / bow than a collection of daggers.

[rezplz]

Didn't think of poison - I'll mention that to her.

And yeah, I think she's pretty set on the daggers. I mentioned that bows and arrows would probably be easier. She agreed, but just said that she wanted to try out the daggers. Because daggers are cool.

[Yora]

I think you'd really have to start with returning daggers for such a character. They are 8,000 gp each, but you need only 3 of those. As the third attack isn't so great, 2 would do the job for the time being. If there's money to spare later on, enchant the daggers further, but each one differently. As the base damage isn't that great, pick something that increases damage, like flaming or such. But if you expect to fight lots of outsiders in the future, that wouldn't help much.

[kamikasei]

If you can, try to look at the Master Thrower from Complete Warrior. It'd be the single most helpful non-core element you could use for this character, a PrC specifically built around throwing weapons. (I think it's halfling-only, but there's no particular reason why the DM shouldn't waive that restriction.)

So aside from the ability to draw and throw as many daggers as you have points of BAB - and yes, putting returning on each of them would be helpful, but failing that you can go for just having a very large number to hand - you want to get as much bonus damage onto each dagger as possible, as each has very little base damage and you can't use Power Attack or anything similar. I'd be inclined to say go Fighter rather than Ranger so that you can pick up both ranged feats and the TWF tree (or get one for free and buy the other with proper feats).

Unfortunately, the concept is just inherently not very strong. Throwing is pretty poorly supported unless you go to Tome of Battle and the Bloodstorm Blade.

[Yora]

But rogue seems to be a good start. Not so easy to get Sneak Attack with throwing weapons and you have to get pretty close, but it's easily available extra damage.

Also, two weapon fighting might be worth considering. The attack penalty isn't so bad and you get more attacks per round.

[korifugi]

Yup - as stated above returning daggers will make things alot easier.

Another thing to consider may be picking up far shot as that'll double the range bands with thrown (and increase bows / crossbows by 50%).

Rogue is a good idea to push into as anytime the target is flanked and you're within 30ft then you'll get your sneak attack, so personally i'd suggest taking a few more levels there as the character progresses; unless the spells are REALLY wanted.

Hope this helps for the mo - off to have a think...

Edit: Gah! beaten to it! Actually, yeah - you may want to add in two weapon fighting, then maybe even look at getting someone to haste the character (or even buy some boots of haste). That'll push your number of attacks even further.

[vampire2948]

Your friend might consider using splash type weaponry also? e.g. alchemist's fire / frost, holy water, that kind of thing along with her daggers?


Her feats are:
Weapon focus (dagger)
Precise shot
Rapid shot
point blank shot
many shot
quick draw

These feats are probably fairly good. Your friend might like to consider the following for the future.

Crossbow Sniper - Players Handbook II - Convince your DM to change it to Dagger Sniper, or you can probably think of a better name. Gives you +1/2 dex mod to damage, and can use sneak attack or skirmish at a range of 60' rather than the usual 30'.

Far Shot - Complete Adventurer / PHB - Range Increment for Thrown Weapons is multiplied by 2 and for Projectile weapons multiplied by 1.5

Improved Rapid Shot - CWarrior P101 - Allows your ranger/rogue friend to make one extra attack with a full round action, without any penalty.

I'd suggest Penetrating Shot - But that's for projectile weaponry only. Perhaps your DM can be pursuaded. It is in PHB 2 p81 if you feel like looking it up.

Power Throw - CAdv. p111 - She'd need to take the Brutal Throw feat first, but this is basically like Power Attack, for thrown weapons.

Ranged Disarm - CWar p103 - Self-Explanatory. 30' range.

Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) - PHB p82 - +2 to hit and to damage, and +20' range.


With a combination of those feats, your friend could be making more attacks per round, doing more interesting things with her ranged attaccks, and hitting far more often. Aswell as having higher damage.


Poisons!

If possible - get ahold of a copy of Dragon Magzine 322! Page 50 is filled with ways to make poisons stronger, add effects, and other options.

Core Poisons:
Black Lotus Extract - Very expensive, but does 3d6 con initial and 3d6 con secondary. Pretty certain to ruin any non-poison immune creature's day. 4,500 gp cost. Contact Poison. High DC!

Sassone Leaf Residue - 2d12 HP damage. 300 gp cost. Contact poison.

Wyvern Poison - 2d6 con / 2d6 con. 3,000 gp cost. Injury Poison.

Death Blade - 1d6 con / 2d6 con. 1,800 gp cost. Injury Poison. [cheaper version of Wyvern poison] High DC!

Bile Whinnis - 1 con / Unconsciousness for 1d3 hrs. 120gp. Cheap, and unconsciousness is awesome. Injury Poison.

Drow Poison - Unconsciousness for 1 min / Unconsciousness for 1d3 hrs. 75gp. If drow exist in your setting - doses of this = win. Injury Poison.

Dragon Bile - 3d6 Str Damage / None. Highest DC of the core poisons, with DC 26. Injury poison. 1.5k.

There are also many non-core poisons [such as the ones in the dragon magazine] that are worth a look. Let me know if you want me to pick out some of those for you - though i'm sure you're capable of finding them yourself.



Hope that helps.

Vampire2948,


EDIT - Added some more poisons and notes on some of them.

[Yora]

Manyshot with daggers...

That's incredibly cool. :smallbiggrin:

But I think if the character allready has Rapid Shot, Two-weapon fighting is not that much of a requirement. Feats are scarce enough as it is.

[vampire2948]

Hi again,

I've been trying to work out a way to that the rogue can get free, or very cheap, poison.

Do you have a caster in your party? Perhaps you could enchant her daggers to make them Wondrous Items, and give them the ability to create a dose of some sort of poison n times/day by using the Minor or Major creation spell?
Your DM might not like it.. but.. hmm. I'll keep looking for items that already exist that have similar effects.

Do you have the Book of Vile Deeds? Lots of fun poisons and such in there, aswell as addictive substances - which could be interesting if played right.

Is your ranger/rogue friend of evil alignment?

Vampire2948,

[Cieyrin]

Master Thrower is definitely a good way to go, if you can expand out to Complete Warrior. I kinda question going for Brutal and Power Throw from Complete Adventurer, as quite a few of the Master Thrower's tricks remove Strength to damage, especially if you go for the capstone trick, Weak Spot, which is definitely something to consider. Always hitting Touch AC w/ your thrown weapons is nothing to sneeze at.

But yes, definitely want to add carrier effects to your daggers, Returning to the number of daggers you can throw in a round and then other effects based on what you expect to be fighting. I'd tack on different energy types to each, as well as considering putting Wounding on them all, as this way you don't have to deal w/ the ethical ramifications of poison and the arguments that go w/ whether using poison is really an evil act or not and still do ability damage, which is what you're really after. Plus, by going with Wounding, there's no save, either, which is just another feather in your hat of tricks.

If you can afford to, Keen + appropriate Energy Burst for even more damage on your 17-20/x2 crits. As a ranger, i'd definitely consider getting Bane and the proper alignment to be even more effective against your favored enemies or the enemies you expect to see in the future. Holy isn't a bad investment generally, as adventurers tend to fight the good fight against evil creatures and all. :smalltongue:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT: @Vampire: The character couldn't take Ranged Weapon Mastery, as that requires at least 4 levels of Fighter for Weapon Spec.

[vampire2948]

EDIT: @Vampire: The character couldn't take Ranged Weapon Mastery, as that requires at least 4 levels of Fighter for Weapon Spec.

Ah, I see - my mistake, sorry.


As for the ethical ramifications of poison. If the character is goodly or neutral aligned, and is not comfortable with the use of poison - perhaps he/she could take a glance at the 'poison' type items in the Book of Exalted Deeds. They only work vs. Evil Creatures, and work in a similar way.

Vampire2948,

[Keld Denar]

Poisons are bad. They are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY overcosted. Seriously. Each dose is only good for 1 hit. If you throw 4 daggers with Wyvern Poison on them, thats 12,000g down the tube. Per round. If you threw 6, you'd have 18,000g PER ROUND. Thats a +3 weapon! Or better yet...a +1 Wounding weapon. PER ROUND!!!!

Also, Returning, as worded, doesn't work for a dedicated thrower. A Returning dagger doesn't come back until right before your next round. Then it comes back in your hand, rather than in the sheath. If your hand is full, it falls on the ground at your feet. So...you have 2 hands, a BAB over 6, and Rapid Shot. You hold one in your right hand, one in your left. You throw the first, then the 2nd, then quickdraw a 3rd and throw that for your 3 attacks/round. Beginning of your round, the 1st comes back in your main hand, the 2nd comes back in your offhand, and the 3rd falls on the ground at your feet. And thats only with 3 attacks. With TWF and Rapid Shot, you could throw 8 daggers in a round, 9 with haste, and with Master Thrower's Palm Throw, 18!!!

Check this out. Its Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11) Its not core, using a lot of Tome of Battle, a little from Dragon Magic, and a little from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It does work though, and well. ToB might be a bit complicated for a beginner though...but you could do something similar with a straight Bard using Dragonfire Inspiration.

[rezplz]

So it looks like the master thrower is a must have - it's got some pretty cool stuff. I think it shouldn't be too out of line to let her switch some of her ranger levels to a few master thrower levels. It's nice playing a casual game.

Keld: Okay, so except in unusual situations anything but the least expensive of poisons is out. And as you already know I'm not quite the best at optimizing, so I'm not sure how you got to 8/9 attacks per round. Starting at two attacks per round, you get improved two weapon fighting, bumping it up to 4. Then you get rapid shot, making it 5. And that's as far as I can think of at her level - unless if you were assuming she had a higher level, and a higher base attack bonus and maxing out two weapon fighting?

[woodenbandman]

Wilderness Rogue 10/Master Thrower 1.

Like Ranger, but with sneak attack.

Wilderness Rogue is in the SRD under class variants.

Unless she, like, HAS to have an animal companion, this should work for her.

[vampire2948]

You can make your own poisons fairly cheaply. Or harvest them from the things you kill.

Would be fun to be creative and make poisons from random creatures / herbs.

[Kaiyanwang]

You can make your own poisons fairly cheaply. Or harvest them from the things you kill.

Would be fun to be creative and make poisons from random creatures / herbs.

I allow it in my campaing. The rangers finds out herbs for the rogue, the shadowcaster use alchemy and the rogue poisonmaking from them.

Also, you can gather naaasty poisons from monsters, expecially at high levels.

By feats and ambush feats, you can raise the DC of a poison from 2 (1 feat) to 8 (4 feats).

[Lamech]

Take leadership and get a dragonfire insperation bard. The extra 12d6 will be quite lethal.

[Keld Denar]

Keld: Okay, so except in unusual situations anything but the least expensive of poisons is out. And as you already know I'm not quite the best at optimizing, so I'm not sure how you got to 8/9 attacks per round. Starting at two attacks per round, you get improved two weapon fighting, bumping it up to 4. Then you get rapid shot, making it 5. And that's as far as I can think of at her level - unless if you were assuming she had a higher level, and a higher base attack bonus and maxing out two weapon fighting?

Yea, I was looking at the top end. Assuming full or mostly full BAB, you have 4 attacks from iteratives, 3 from ITWF, 1 from Rapid Shot, and 1 from Haste. You can get more in there with stuff like Dancing/Rabid Mongoose or with Multiweapon Fighting (get a prehensile tail, throw daggers with it!). At level 11, she would only have 5 attacks, but still, 5 +1 returning daggers are 41,505 gold, and they don't even work the way they are supposed to...

[rezplz]

So then the best thing to do would be to get two enchanted returning daggers, and then a ****load of normal ones, and go for at least one level in the master thrower class? Maybe put some of her levels into rogue, or wilderness rogue, too.

[DrGonzo]

Isn't the bracer Jarlaxle has (from RA Salvatore you know) a handy thing to have? It's a magic item that creates throwing daggers, I don't know if it's in a book somewhere..

[Frosty]

She should go for Bloodstorm Blade. then you don't need to worry about daggers not returning to you.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Inspire Courage oriented Bard who casts Whirling Blade, with multiple Eternal Wands of Whirling Blade (4420 for a 2/day wand), is another way to pull this sort of concept off.

[valadil]

She needs to focus her equipment on offense. All of her gear is defensive. She's using the same plain daggers that level 1 characters carry as a backup weapon. Get her something better.

You definitely want to start with +1 returning. Once you have that, pile on the upgrades. I'd probably start her with some elemental damage just to get extra d6s. If you have a friendly caster, spellstoring items are pretty sweet too.

You should also consider having her throw other things like tanglefoot bags or Qual's feather tokens. She already has quick draw, so why not give her more options in combat?

[ericgrau]

Open up the fight by chucking daggers against flat-footed opponents, then close in and use the longsword. That way you wouldn't need returning, as long as you pick up the daggers later. Though that'd be messy if running away and focuses less on daggers than you might like.

[Cieyrin]

Poisons are bad. They are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY overcosted. Seriously. Each dose is only good for 1 hit. If you throw 4 daggers with Wyvern Poison on them, thats 12,000g down the tube. Per round. If you threw 6, you'd have 18,000g PER ROUND. Thats a +3 weapon! Or better yet...a +1 Wounding weapon. PER ROUND!!!!

Also, Returning, as worded, doesn't work for a dedicated thrower. A Returning dagger doesn't come back until right before your next round. Then it comes back in your hand, rather than in the sheath. If your hand is full, it falls on the ground at your feet. So...you have 2 hands, a BAB over 6, and Rapid Shot. You hold one in your right hand, one in your left. You throw the first, then the 2nd, then quickdraw a 3rd and throw that for your 3 attacks/round. Beginning of your round, the 1st comes back in your main hand, the 2nd comes back in your offhand, and the 3rd falls on the ground at your feet. And thats only with 3 attacks. With TWF and Rapid Shot, you could throw 8 daggers in a round, 9 with haste, and with Master Thrower's Palm Throw, 18!!!

Check this out. Its Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11) Its not core, using a lot of Tome of Battle, a little from Dragon Magic, and a little from the Eberron Campaign Setting. It does work though, and well. ToB might be a bit complicated for a beginner though...but you could do something similar with a straight Bard using Dragonfire Inspiration.

The only hole in your logic I see is what's stopping you from holding multiple daggers in the same hand? Sure, you won't be grabbing all 18 but you could certainly grab 2-3 per hand and, via Quick Draw, have them considered ready to chuck again.

Now, if instead of daggers he was using shuriken, he could probably grab 10-12 in one hand fairly easily, given the size of things (though I'd recommend wearing some good gloves when doing this, unless you have some way to prevent yourself from being punctured with all the sharp bits :smalleek:), so 20-24 with both hands and then do a ranged combo with those. Best of all, you magic them up like ammunition, meaning each one is at 1/50th of a normal magic weapon's cost, which makes them reasonably priced even at high bonuses. 20 shuriken with effective bonuses of +10 are only 40,124 gp.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Gnaeus]

You need a reliable way to do ranged sneak attack damage. The two easiest ways I know of in core are

Ring of Blink (So absolutely awesome that many DMs ban it)
or
Wand of Greater Invisibility (Better Max that Use Magic Device skill)

[Cespenar]

So what about a batch (50?) of +1 Returning Shuriken? Is it possible?

"Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown."

"Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown."

[mcl01]

Don't have access to my sources right now, but IIRC, returning only applies to melee throwing weapons. You can't place it on ammunition. Even if it did, ammunition is destroyed on a successful hit.

Take my advice with a grain of salt please. No sources in front of me.

I was toying around with this idea for a while, and it's just REALLY feat intensive to get fairly decent... Oh, and RAW, many shot doesn't work with daggers, I believe. I looked. It specifically mentions bow and arrows.

Here's what I had so far. Unless she really wants the ranger spells, I would actually suggest doing this with a fighter. An animal companion can be replaced with a wild Cohort. Otherwise it could get really feat-starved.

Anyway, I would suggest TWF + (I know they're non-core, but they're from the Completes. Relatively close to Core) Scout + Master Thrower.

Skirmish palm-throwing, double-throwing as a standard action. As a standard action, you get 4 attacks and as your move action, you can retreat, adding skirmish damage twice I believe. No str to damage using palm-throw though. On the upside, that says nothing about other damage increases. If you replace some ranger levels with fighter 4, you can get +2 damage with weapon specialization per dagger. If you grab 4 +1 returning daggers, that's another +1 damage per dagger. There's also that grants +1 extra damage (Gauntlet of War? Gauntlet of battle? Something close to that in the MiC), and it increases to +3 if your deity has the war domain.

With that, that's basically 4x 1d6+6 + skirmish damage per round. Add in poison, and you're doing pretty well.

[Myrmex]

Unless you can greatly lower the cost of poison, don't use it.

Use throwing daggers or some other type of weapon that counts as "ammunition" so the party caster can put a Greater Magic Weapon on 50 of them at a time, instead of having to purchase a crapton of +1 weapons. That way you also don't have to purchase Returning; you just go through 100 daggers & two spell slots/day.

TWF would be handy for a couple extra attacks. Optimizing Favored Enemy would be good, but if it's a humanoid heavy campaign, a bit fruitless. You could try picking up Knowledge Devotion; you get bonuses to hit & damage based on your knowledge check vs. an opponent's creature type.

I'm not sure if strongarm bracers or monkey grip would work with thrown weapons, but both those increase the size category of the weapon you can use (they do not stack). That could be another source of damage. Normally people parrot noise about it being a trap, but they often don't understand WHAT makes it a trap.

Ranger spells (and Assassin, Paladin and Blackguard, for that matter) get really, really good outside of core. The spell compendium is full of delicious spells, though you can always download a .pdf of them from crystalkeep.com


Wilderness Rogue 10/Master Thrower 1.

Like Ranger, but with sneak attack.

Wilderness Rogue is in the SRD under class variants.

Unless she, like, HAS to have an animal companion, this should work for her.

Lost BAB is a bummer, though.

[Doc Roc]

Can I interest you in a simple and elegant solution that emphasizes all of her existing concepts?

Behold!
The SWEEEEEFTTTT HUNTAAAAR! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=12511847) A beautifully made and well-maintained handbook by the excellent and inimitable Dictum Mortuum.
Read it over. I know it's not very core, but her character concept cannot function in core.

Would she consider boomerangs over daggers? They have some inherent advantages. Where is your group playing in, setting wise?

[sofawall]

Did I see some people talking about Bloodstorm Blade, Bard, and Master Thrower? Let's put them all together!

Tidesinger and came up with this a week or two ago when working on Dragonfire Inspiration Optimization.

Warblade 1/battle sorcerer 1/Bard 4/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Master Thrower 1/Bard 11

Flaw Point blank Shot
Flaw Weapon Finesse
Human Weapon Focus (Dagger)
1 TWF
3 Dragonfire Inspiration
6 WoC
9 SotH (Quick Draw, bonus)
12 Snowflake Wardance
15 Draconic Heritage
18 Open

Some items like badge of honour, vest of legends, a masterwork instrument and swords, I forget which, echoblades or some such thing. Anyway, it gives a nice number of attacks with near-optimal Inspire Courage. With partial BAB, it even nabs +16 :D

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Don't take TWF, get Gloves of the Balanced Hand for it instead (8000 gp)

[sofawall]

I have those, but for ITWF, actually.

[Doc Roc]

TWF, the base feat, is worth it, as a qualification preq, and also so that the gloves will grant ITWF. Beyond that, I'm not sure I'd take it. Also, there's

"Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF, 10,000 gp) Gives any weapon you are holding throwing and returning weapon qualities."

Which would be perfect for the original character concept no matter where you end up going. It's a heck of a savings.

[Cieyrin]

Don't have access to my sources right now, but IIRC, returning only applies to melee throwing weapons. You can't place it on ammunition. Even if it did, ammunition is destroyed on a successful hit.

Take my advice with a grain of salt please. No sources in front of me.


Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown.

Given that shuriken are thrown, I would assume that you can apply Returning to them. They don't say anything about ammunition being unaffected but, given most ammunition needs a launcher, you probably don't need to. :smallamused:

Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant would definitely be more cost effective than making your ammunition returning. Would certainly allow them to to have more room for cool effects. Woot for non-epic +11 (or +12, if we start throwing long swords and greataxes around:smallbiggrin:) weapons!:smallcool:

[Myrmex]

Given that shuriken are thrown, I would assume that you can apply Returning to them. They don't say anything about ammunition being unaffected but, given most ammunition needs a launcher, you probably don't need to. :smallamused:

Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant would definitely be more cost effective than making your ammunition returning. Would certainly allow them to to have more room for cool effects. Woot for non-epic +11 (or +12, if we start throwing long swords and greataxes around:smallbiggrin:) weapons!:smallcool:

Why would you want to spend any gold getting ammunition enchanted? Especially with returning? If you hit, it gets destroyed, and if it misses, it has a 50% chance of being destroyed. You're paying 6k gold for a useless enchantment. Even at +1, it's still 40gp/ shuriken. You're better off just throwing alchemist fire.

[Doc Roc]

There's a single specific case where you enchant ammo, and that's if you never plan to actually use it, instead just holding it. +1 warning eager shuriken of initiative are a great way to go first. :)

[sofawall]

You forgot the ever-contested hypodermic needles.

[Doc Roc]

How could I forget those :: laughing :: oh wait, cause they make my head hurt so much. :)

[Person_Man]

1) If she can, retrain into Ranger 11 or Rogue 11 or Rogue 6/Master Thrower 5. Ranger 10/Rogue 1 is a pretty pointless combination. If she goes Ranger, then consider Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm). If she goes Rogue, she needs to learn how to use UMD (buy lots of useful wands with buff spells) and how to use Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

2) A good thrown weapon build is very hard to pull off without Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, or Hulking Hurler. So if you're playing a core-ish campaign and can't use those, then change tactics. If she likes ranged attacks, use a bow and the related archery feats (especially Greater Manyshot if she's a Rogue). Buy magical ammo and a magical bow, and remember that the different magical properties stack (though the enhancement bonus does not). If she prefers getting up close, then she should use two weapon fighting and melee related feats.

3) More magic items solve pretty much any balance problems. Talk to the DM.

[Cieyrin]

Why would you want to spend any gold getting ammunition enchanted? Especially with returning? If you hit, it gets destroyed, and if it misses, it has a 50% chance of being destroyed. You're paying 6k gold for a useless enchantment. Even at +1, it's still 40gp/ shuriken. You're better off just throwing alchemist fire.

bah, so much hating on the cheap ammunition, even if it's ruined by it the ammo destruction rules. :smallannoyed:

So much for that Swarm of Bees build I've been meaning to make for so long...

[Keld Denar]

So much for that Swarm of Bees build I've been meaning to make for so long...

Bees you say? NOT THE BEES!!! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1165515)

[Cieyrin]

Bees you say? NOT THE BEES!!! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1165515)

ZOMG, my eyes! @_@ Why would anyone do that to those poor defenseless Portable Holes?!? They were innocent and pure! ;_;

[sofawall]

That was Tidesinger, you know. He's Doc Roc over there.