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talus21
2009-08-06, 11:26 AM
I don't understand why you would add any more than +1 enchantment to any given weapon. With no +X damage reduction their doesn't seem to be much point.

Can anyone point out to me why you would need more?

Quietus
2009-08-06, 11:27 AM
Bigger bonuses to hit and damage?

Breaking Epic damage reduction?

The Glyphstone
2009-08-06, 11:27 AM
If someone in your party can cast Greater Magic Weapon....there isn't, really.

The exception is Augment Crystals from MIC, the best grade of them requires a +3 enhancement.

Telonius
2009-08-06, 11:49 AM
Having a better chance of connecting on a Power Attack or other attack where you reduce the bonus.

Better chance of dealing some damage if your foe has DR x/magic and silver, when your weapon is magic and adamantine.

Better resistance to being Sundered (+10 HP and +2 hardness). It's specifically based off enhancement bonus, not special abilities.

Potentially better resistance to being Dispelled. CL of a magic weapon is either 3 x enhancement bonus, or the CL of the ability, whichever is greater. Of the Core weapon abilities, only Vorpal will always have a higher CL than a +5 sword. (Dancing will equal it).

talus21
2009-08-06, 11:53 AM
I guess it just seems better use of wealth to add more abilities to your weapon rather than an additional +1 enchantment.

Cyrion
2009-08-06, 12:08 PM
Adding bonuses to a defending quarterstaff could be useful to a mage.

Telonius
2009-08-06, 12:11 PM
Well, you'd have to run the stats to see if +4 to hit is worth whatever bonus damage you'd get. But the other things are pretty situational. Not very many DMs regularly sunder or dispel weapons.

woodenbandman
2009-08-06, 12:16 PM
There is no point, nor should there be. +s on weapons are big doo-doos. They were sexy back in 2.0 when armor class capped at -10 and damage was 1d6 +4, but they're rather not in 3.5.

Indon
2009-08-06, 12:16 PM
I guess it just seems better use of wealth to add more abilities to your weapon rather than an additional +1 enchantment.

Depends on the enchantment.

Some enchantments are worth wildly more than their listed value, and are thus better than flat enhancement bonuses (like Wounding).

But each point of enhancement bonus grants +1 to hit as well as +1 to damage, and a +1 to hit can potentially be worth multiple points of damage.

As a quick example, the Flaming enchantment is worth +1, and increases damage by an average of 3.5. +1 additional enhancement is worth more if you can convert your +1 to hit into 3 or more damage.

If you're charging on a mount with a lance that you're wielding 2-handed, Power Attack can convert +1 to hit into 4 damage, making the +1 enhancement worth 5 points of damage total.

Yora
2009-08-06, 12:20 PM
I think the +1d6 energy damage enchantments are far superior to a +1 bonus to attack and damage, as long as you fight few enemies with energy resistance and damage reduction.
Bane is pretty powerful, but again only if you know what you will be up against.
Keen is interesting, but if you specialize in one specific type of weapon, Improved Critical continues to be useful every time you get a new weapon of that time
Disrupting and Ghost Touch are very specific.
Holy weapons are extremely useful, as you usually can expect about any creature you ever fight to be evil, but it's also more expensive.

I'm not sure if really high enchantment bonuses are worth it, but +2 and +3 seem quite useful to me.

KillianHawkeye
2009-08-06, 12:22 PM
In the end, it mostly comes down to personal preference.

Regord_Silentflame
2009-08-06, 12:26 PM
Also, keep in mind that at high levels, bonuses to AC come in many different flavors, insight bonus, deflection bonus, dodge bonus, natural armor bonus, armor bonus, shield bonus, divine bonus, profane bonus, misc bonus...just out of the DMG you can get +5 def, +5 nat, +8 armor, +4 shield, on top of dex bonus items


On the other hand, to increase attack, without delving into a giant list of spells, your choices include adding to Str (or Dex), and adding enhancement bonus to your weapon.

If you're a rogue at 18th level, the +4 weapon may be the difference between hitting on a 16, and hitting on a 12 (and with +9d6 sneak attack, hitting every 2/5 times is much better than hitting every 1/5 times)

Shpadoinkle
2009-08-06, 02:04 PM
Improved accuracy.

(Big one for me) Better saves vs. various forms of destruction.

jmbrown
2009-08-06, 02:11 PM
{Scrubbed}

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 02:31 PM
I think the +1d6 energy damage enchantments are far superior to a +1 bonus to attack and damage, as long as you fight few enemies with energy resistance and damage reduction.

With the given stipulations, this can be true for one-handers. Two handers would be better off with the +1 if they engage in much optimization.

Doc Roc
2009-08-06, 02:34 PM
+1 Valorous Lance made of Riverine with a crystal for dealing with ghost touch nearby.... That's my weapon of choice.

Deepblue706
2009-08-06, 03:10 PM
+X can be superior to Elemental boosts, as those are giving you an average of a 3.5 bonus to damage, which some creatures can resist; where as this generic damage will apply to anything. And, if you have Power Attack, each +1 can translate into 3 damage (+1 attack and damage becomes +0 attack and +3 damage with a two-handed weapon on PA 1), which is nearly as effective as that Elemental boost. So, you get to choose between accuracy and damage, whereas otherwise you could not.

A +X enchantment also adds to hardness and HP of a weapon, making it more difficult to Sunder. Having an increased attack also makes it harder for you to lose opposed rolls on Sunder and Disarm checks (initiated by or against you).

+X of course loses its appeal when you have allies who can bestow Greater Magic Weapon, but they can probably do more with spells than give you a little extra damage for an hour or two. If one of your spellcasting buddies can regularly prepare it, then other enchantments tend to be worth it. But, you should try to adjust to their gameplan, not fold your arms when they don't adjust to yours.

Belobog
2009-08-06, 03:14 PM
The biggest thing I can think of would be if you wanted a weapon to overcome Epic Damage Reduction, which requires +6 or better. Then again, if you're playing Epic, you have a whole mess of other problems other than overcoming a source of DR.

Although, this brings up a good point: Greater Magic Weapon says it gives an enhancement bonus, replacing your old one if your weapon has one for the duration. Does this mean you can have an effective +10 weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus, then have a Wizard spot you and gain an effective +14 weapon?

Edit:

+X of course loses its appeal when you have allies who can bestow Greater Magic Weapon, but they can probably do more with spells than give you a little extra damage for an hour or two. If one of your spellcasting buddies can regularly prepare it, then other enchantments tend to be worth it. But, you should try to adjust to their gameplan, not fold your arms when they don't adjust to yours.

That's an hour/level. At the level a wizard gets it, they could extend it for half a day, and its maximum with full casting and a source of Extend Spell is nearly two days (40 hours). Seems worth the 3rd level slot.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 03:15 PM
The biggest thing I can think of would be if you wanted a weapon to overcome Epic Damage Reduction, which requires +6 or better. Then again, if you're playing Epic, you have a whole mess of other problems other than overcoming a source of DR.

Although, this brings up a good point: Greater Magic Weapon says it gives an enhancement bonus, replacing your old one if your weapon has one for the duration. Does this mean you can have an effective +10 weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus, then have a Wizard spot you and gain an effective +14 weapon?

Yes. I don't allow it.

...But if you don't include a lot of houserules then you probably should, since it helps out melee a lot.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 03:22 PM
If you're not running a Magic Mart in your game, sometimes the choice is between a +1 Defending/Merciful/Thundering/other marginally useful enhancement weapon and a +2 weapon, or any number of different enhancements/enhancement bonuses on the weapons that the PCs get, particularly if you're using a random treasure generator.

Which would you rather have, a +2 sword, or a +1 Oozebane sword?

Deepblue706
2009-08-06, 03:26 PM
That's an hour/level. At the level a wizard gets it, they could extend it for half a day, and its maximum with full casting and a source of Extend Spell is nearly two days (40 hours). Seems worth the 3rd level slot.

Yikes. I had thought it was a 10min/level spell.

Certainly at high levels, that's worth the slot. But by then, the Fighter probably has enough WBL to have a lot of enchantments, and many, many creatures by then will have resistances to elemental damage. Although, perhaps the Fighter ought still be investing in things other than +X, such as Demonbane and Holy weapons, etc.

If we're talking level 11, it's nice, but I think the party would get better use of an encounter having an extra Haste, or something. Unless we've got plenty of scrolls, and it's no detriment to assets.

Blackfang108
2009-08-06, 03:42 PM
Which would you rather have, a +2 sword, or a +1 Oozebane sword?

Oozebane. I hate dealing with those things while weilding a sword.

RyanM
2009-08-06, 03:47 PM
Numerically, let's see. I'll just do a really simple analysis.

Someone with a +10/+5 BAB with a normal 1d8 longsword and +4 str bonus versus something with an AC of 20.

A Full Attack Action with no feats will attack twice at +14 and +9. 70% and 45% chances to hit, average damage 8.5 per hit if we ignore criticals. About 9.8 damage per round, not good.

Masterwork or +1 increases the attack bonus to +15 and +10. 10.6 damage per round for masterwork, 11.9 for a +1.

A +5 longsword increases the attack bonuses to +19 and +14, and the damage per hit to 13.5 per whack. 22.3 damage per round.

+5 compared to +1 nearly doubles the damage output, in this example. Against an enemy with a higher AC, there'd be a much greater effect.

Siosilvar
2009-08-06, 03:58 PM
Numerically, let's see. I'll just do a really simple analysis.

Someone with a +10/+5 BAB with a normal 1d8 longsword and +4 str bonus versus something with an AC of 20.

A Full Attack Action with no feats will attack twice at +14 and +9. 70% and 45% chances to hit, average damage 8.5 per hit if we ignore criticals. About 9.8 damage per round, not good.

Masterwork or +1 increases the attack bonus to +15 and +10. 10.6 damage per round for masterwork, 11.9 for a +1.

A +5 longsword increases the attack bonuses to +19 and +14, and the damage per hit to 13.5 per whack. 22.3 damage per round.

+5 compared to +1 nearly doubles the damage output, in this example. Against an enemy with a higher AC, there'd be a much greater effect.

What if we compare, say, +1 flaming longsword vs. +2 longsword?
+15/+10 with 13 damage per hit, 16.25 damage per round (about 14% extra)
+16/+11 with 10.5 damage per hit, 14.275 damage per round

And vs. AC 25?
+1 flaming: 11.05 per round (about 11% extra)
+2: 9.975 per round

And against an AC of 30?
+1 flaming: 4.55 damage per round (about 8% extra)
+2: 4.2 damage per round

Make it a +1 flaming, frost, shock, acidic longsword versus a +5 longsword and you'll probably see about the same.

Doc Roc
2009-08-06, 04:02 PM
If you're not running a Magic Mart in your game, sometimes the choice is between a +1 Defending/Merciful/Thundering/other marginally useful enhancement weapon and a +2 weapon, or any number of different enhancements/enhancement bonuses on the weapons that the PCs get, particularly if you're using a random treasure generator.

Which would you rather have, a +2 sword, or a +1 Oozebane sword?

Okay, Magic Mart keeps coming up as some special trick that only Arch-Munchenlords use, and it's starting to make me really angry. What the hell do you do for your supposed balancing factor if one of the players is an artificer? Or just a well built crafter? Or if they live in a metropolis where they can commission something as simple as a magical sword?

Dear God, you can't balance a game around the idea that players never get what they want!Other than Paranoia. Uh... Hail Friend comput--arrrghhhhhh hurts so muccc--

Navigator
2009-08-06, 04:05 PM
The real question you want to ask is "Why is greater magic weapon totally overpowered?"

Remove the ability for this spell to be chained and standard +s to weapons will be fine. Until then, epic damage reduction and greater crystals, which were already mentioned.

Keld Denar
2009-08-06, 04:07 PM
If we're talking level 11, it's nice, but I think the party would get better use of an encounter having an extra Haste, or something. Unless we've got plenty of scrolls, and it's no detriment to assets.

Haste has a deadband in CharOp. Its one of the best spells from the time you get it at 5 till about level 9-10. At that level, a melee character should have enough cash to provide some kind of personal Haste, probably in boots form. Wizo's got a lot better things to be doing, like...BC, at that point than to spend an action casting Haste. Unless you are in a group with a Swiftblade, its probably a wise bet as a melee NOT to rely on your party for Haste by that level.

Honestly, I've never really seen the big draw of a HUGE weapon. I mean, a +3 weapon is a solid investment. That gives you like, a +1 Holy, a +1 Wounding, a +1 Transmuting, a +1 Collision, or a +1 Keen Merciful or something like that. Past that, the boosts you get are almost too cost prohibitive when you have a ton of other body slots that can be filled cheaply. Get that FoM Ring so you can dance a jig inside of your friendly caster's BC spell instead of hangin around outside it like a mugger at a 7-11. Get that continuous flight item so you aren't left out of any 10th level+ encounter. Get some short range teleportation so you don't get boned by a Force Cage. Get some form of True Sight...lots to choose from there. Boost your Str, your Con, or any other stat you rely on to do your job. Boost your saves, cause who wants to fail one of those! Lots of useful crap to spend your G's on...a weapon just isn't that great of an investment.

EDIT:
My Living Greyhawk Fighter rocked a +1 Cold Iron Spiked Chain for the first almost 10 levels of his life. Was too busy buying Str, Con, Haste, FoM and flight. When he finally upgraded, it was to a +1 Adamantine Wounding chain, which was later upgraded with Transmuting. That last upgrade happened AT level 15, right at the end of the campaign.

Deepblue706
2009-08-06, 05:20 PM
Haste has a deadband in CharOp. Its one of the best spells from the time you get it at 5 till about level 9-10. At that level, a melee character should have enough cash to provide some kind of personal Haste, probably in boots form. Wizo's got a lot better things to be doing, like...BC, at that point than to spend an action casting Haste. Unless you are in a group with a Swiftblade, its probably a wise bet as a melee NOT to rely on your party for Haste by that level.

Yeah, I guess you're right about that. I was just trying to name a level 3 spell that might be more worth it; forgot how much other crap can be done by the time you've got level 6 spells, and how a Fighter can afford Boots of Haste at that same level. But, there is other stuff a Wizard can cast before a fight. So, I don't think it's unwarranted to say that he might still be too occupied with other stuff to help out Fighter with GMW then, since at 11 he'll only be giving +2 (when the Fighter will almost undoubtedly already have at least a +1).

I mean, there's Magic Circle, Protection from Energy, Arcane Sight, Tongues...then there's lower-level Metamagic'd stuff.



Honestly, I've never really seen the big draw of a HUGE weapon. I mean, a +3 weapon is a solid investment. That gives you like, a +1 Holy, a +1 Wounding, a +1 Transmuting, a +1 Collision, or a +1 Keen Merciful or something like that. Past that, the boosts you get are almost too cost prohibitive when you have a ton of other body slots that can be filled cheaply. Get that FoM Ring so you can dance a jig inside of your friendly caster's BC spell instead of hangin around outside it like a mugger at a 7-11. Get that continuous flight item so you aren't left out of any 10th level+ encounter. Get some short range teleportation so you don't get boned by a Force Cage. Get some form of True Sight...lots to choose from there. Boost your Str, your Con, or any other stat you rely on to do your job. Boost your saves, cause who wants to fail one of those! Lots of useful crap to spend your G's on...a weapon just isn't that great of an investment.

EDIT:
My Living Greyhawk Fighter rocked a +1 Cold Iron Spiked Chain for the first almost 10 levels of his life. Was too busy buying Str, Con, Haste, FoM and flight. When he finally upgraded, it was to a +1 Adamantine Wounding chain, which was later upgraded with Transmuting. That last upgrade happened AT level 15, right at the end of the campaign.

Yeah, that's mostly how I feel about weaponry too. There are way too many trinkets you end up losing out on if you invest too heavily in just a magic sword. And then, you get knocked out of the picture way too easily. It's not until my characters get to high level play (I'd say 15+) that I tend to go beyond a +1 Adamantine Vicious Weapon. I like Vicious a lot. And I might add on Ghost Touch or something.

grautry
2009-08-06, 05:31 PM
The real question you want to ask is "Why is greater magic weapon totally overpowered?"

Remove the ability for this spell to be chained and standard +s to weapons will be fine. Until then, epic damage reduction and greater crystals, which were already mentioned.

The real question is "Why would you do this horrible thing?".

Melee is already weak compared to casters. What's the gain in forcing them to waste five times as much money on weapons?

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 05:37 PM
Okay, Magic Mart keeps coming up as some special trick that only Arch-Munchenlords use, and it's starting to make me really angry. What the hell do you do for your supposed balancing factor if one of the players is an artificer? Or just a well built crafter? Or if they live in a metropolis where they can commission something as simple as a magical sword?

Dear God, you can't balance a game around the idea that players never get what they want!Other than Paranoia. Uh... Hail Friend comput--arrrghhhhhh hurts so muccc--

Excuse me, did I lay any judgment down about whether or not a Magic Mart type game is a good thing or a bad thing? Some games employ a Magic Mart style economy. Others don't.

In a game where there is no Magic Mart, you will likely see more usage of weapons with straight enhancement bonuses, like I stated.

SinsI
2009-08-06, 05:41 PM
You deal X damage with each attack and you hit on rolls A)6, B) 11 C)16.
Critical hit on 20.
What is better - (flaming)+3.5 damage on each hit or +1 to damage and +1 to hit?

A) Flaming: You deal (3/4) * ((1+1/20)*X + 3.5) damage =0.7875 X + 2.625 damage
+1: You deal (16/20)*(1+1/20)*(X + 1) damage = 0.84 X + 0.84 damage.
B) Flaming: You deal (1/2) *((1+1/20)*X + 3.5) damage = 0.525 X + 1.75 damage
+1: You deal (11/20)*((1+1/20)*(X + 1) damage = 0.5775 X + 0.5775
C) Flaming: You deal (1/4)*((1+1/20)*X + 3.5) damage = 0.2625 X + 0.875
+1: You deal (6/20)*((1+1/20)*(X + 1) damage = 0.315 X +0.315 damage

Analysis:
a) (0.84 - 0.7875) X = 2.625 - 0.84, X = 34
b) (0.5775 - 0.525) X = 1.75 - 0.5775, X = 22.333
c) (0.315 - 0.2625) X = 0.875 - 0.315, X = 10.98
If these 3 attacks are your full attack, you do:
Flaming: 1.575 X + 5.25 damage in a round.
+1: 1.7325 X + 1.7325 damage.
(1.7325 -1.575) x = 5.25 - 1.7325, X = 22.333

And an additional option: +1, spend it on power attack: (3/4+1/2+1/4)*(1+1/20)*(X+2) = 1.575 X + 3.15
(1.7325 - 1.575 ) X = 3.15 - 1.7325, X = 9 - as you can see, for an optimized character power attack is not a viable option to increase his damage.

Fighter, lvl 12 has: X = 5.5 (1d10) + 1.5*8 (Str 20 + 3 lvl up + 4 Belt of Giant Strength) + 4 (Greater Weapon Specialization) + 1 (minimal magic bonus) = 22.5;
As you can see, +1 against easy to hit enemies will give you about the same damage, and against harder to hit enemies it is far superior to an additional 1d6 Fire.

sofawall
2009-08-06, 08:56 PM
Excuse me, did I lay any judgment down about whether or not a Magic Mart type game is a good thing or a bad thing? Some games employ a Magic Mart style economy. Others don't.

In a game where there is no Magic Mart, you will likely see more usage of weapons with straight enhancement bonuses, like I stated.

The way you said it could come across as Tidesinger said. I read it the same way he did, just so you know. Thanks for clearing it up, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-06, 09:43 PM
In a game where there is no Magic Mart, you will likely see more usage of weapons with straight enhancement bonuses, like I stated.Actually, you'd see more of whatever the DM decides to hand out. But if magic items are rare and valuable, then(in a game where the DM thinks about this) they're probably custom orders, meaning the generic is far less common than customer-specific enhancements on each weapon.

As to what's used, the Fighter probably still prefers non +X enhancements for the same reason he does in a Magic Mart game: GMW.

Mike_G
2009-08-06, 09:58 PM
Okay, Magic Mart keeps coming up as some special trick that only Arch-Munchenlords use, and it's starting to make me really angry. What the hell do you do for your supposed balancing factor if one of the players is an artificer? Or just a well built crafter? Or if they live in a metropolis where they can commission something as simple as a magical sword?


I don't run a world with a Magic Mart, and I nerf item crafting. I don't like the Christmas Tree effect, so I work around it. As far as just commissioning stuff, I run magic items as rare, powerful and stuff very few people can make. If you want a sword of Dragonbane, you need to find a skilled crafter and probably go on a quest for components, not order it from Ye Olde Sears Catalogue.

I personally feel that Wondrous Items should be, well, Wondrous. Not so common every PC over 3rd level has every body slot filled. I control the items the party has.






Dear God, you can't balance a game around the idea that players never get what they want!

But they can have what they want, within reason.

I work with the players to see that their characters get items that fit their ideas for that character. And I'm a fan of items that increase in power as you level, so you aren't always cashing in your +1 Ring of Protection as a downpayment on a +2 Ring of Protection.

The PC's won't have two dozen items, but they will have a few really awesome signature items. No "+x" to every ability score item, but maybe packing Sting or Stormbringer.

This isn't an issue with a single DM campaign, since I can adjust stuff to fit, and while it may not work for everybody, it works for us.

The PC's get excited to find magic items, they really get invested in the stuff they do have, and their wish list of items generates plotlines and hooks rather than taking five minutes of bookkeeping at level up.

That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with a standard "If you can afford it, you can get it" campaign, I just don't prefer it. It's not munchkinny, just not my style.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 10:01 PM
Actually, you'd see more of whatever the DM decides to hand out. But if magic items are rare and valuable, then(in a game where the DM thinks about this) they're probably custom orders, meaning the generic is far less common than customer-specific enhancements on each weapon.

Or, since the characters don't know that a +1 Frost weapon does X% more damage on average than a +2 weapon (depending on build, it could be the other way around, but that's beside the point), they would have no inherent reason to prefer the +1 Frost weapon over the +2 weapon, unless they have an affinity for the cold - or vice versa, unless they like to be accurate with their attacks. There would be other specific character reasons for why character A would prefer the Frost weapon and character B would prefer the +2 weapon, but we're talking in general in this case.

But yes, it does boil down to what the DM decides to hand out.


That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with a standard "If you can afford it, you can get it" campaign, I just don't prefer it. It's not munchkinny, just not my style.

I actually like both types of campaigns. They each have their merits IMO. But agreed that having a few unique magic items instead of the usual litany can be refreshing and fun.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-06, 10:45 PM
The danger is when a DM decides to go overboard in avoiding Magic Mart syndrome and ends up leaving the PCs dangerously under WBL. This includes if their total awards are technically at WBL, but all consist of randomly rolled useless things like +1 Oozebane Warhammers, and the DM refuses to let them sell their gear or trade it for useful equipment.

JaxGaret
2009-08-06, 10:50 PM
The danger is when a DM decides to go overboard in avoiding Magic Mart syndrome and ends up leaving the PCs dangerously under WBL. This includes if their total awards are technically at WBL, but all consist of randomly rolled useless things like +1 Oozebane Warhammers, and the DM refuses to let them sell their gear or trade it for useful equipment.

The DM can compensate by lowering the CR of encounters that the party engages in.

But you do have a point.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-06, 10:55 PM
Regord_Silentflame alluded to this, but I'll state it plainly:

Buying (almost) anything but a numeric enhancement to a weapon is a feeble-minded misuse of funds for a Rogue.

First Rule Of Sneak Attack: If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-06, 11:02 PM
Regord_Silentflame alluded to this, but I'll state it plainly:

Buying (almost) anything but a numeric enhancement to a weapon is a feeble-minded misuse of funds for a Rogue.

First Rule Of Sneak Attack: If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.And I alluded to this before as well: Buying anything except a Pearl of Power 3 is a criminal misuse of funds in a party with a Wizard. +2, 8,000 GP. +3, 18,000 GP. Pearl of Power is cheaper. At higher enhancement bonuses, I'd rather pay an NPC caster to follow me around than buy a straight +x.

FMArthur
2009-08-07, 12:36 AM
As to what's used, the Fighter probably still prefers non +X enhancements for the same reason he does in a Magic Mart game: GMW.

What if your party wizard decides that he doesn't have the spell slots to magic-up everyone's weapons, get the party around obstacles, arrange divinations, provide safe sleeping conditions, prepare safe escapes, prepare defensive emergency spells and provide battlefield control? I accept the power of wizards, I truly do, but if the rest of the party can't at least perform their specific roles well without dependence on the wizard, they aren't worth him keeping them around in the first place.

Keld Denar
2009-08-07, 01:02 AM
You mean 1 single 3rd level spell slot? Thats hardly gonna break the bank. Fighty McFighterson buys himself a 9000g Pearl of Power3. 9,000g is about the difference between a +2 equiv weapon and a +3 (18,000 - 8,000 = 10,000g). He hands that PoP3 over to the Wizard for safekeeping. In return, Wizo preps a GMW to help Fighty better do his job. Wizo casts GMW on Fighty's weapon and Fighty goes about his adventuring day, gleefully hacking and slashing away. Wizo was planning on prepping 2 Hastes that day, but can only prep 1 because of Fighty's request. During the 1st encounter of the day, Wizo casts Haste to buff Fighty and Sneako, the Rogue. Immediately after combat, he pulls out the PoP3 that Fighty gave him and BOOM! Haste is back and ready for action. Sneako sees how well this works, and instead of buying a +3 weapon himself, nabs another Pearl of Power3 for Wizo. Now Wizo casts the spell on Fighty's sword, recalls it once, and then casts it again on Sneako's sword. The 2nd PoP3 he holds on to to cast Haste again at a later point, empowering his friends to fight better.

Later in their career, after amassing some more Wealth, Fighty and Sneako decide to take their swords to the great dwarven smithy Watts to get them upgraded. Because they bought the Pearl of Power3 instead of upgrading their weapons from +2 to +3, their weapons are still only +2 equivalants instead of +3. Fighty picks up Viscious on his sword, making it a +3 equiv but Sneako goes all out and gets Brilliant Energy. Sneako's weapon is now a +6 equivalent, and costs 72,000g. If he had bought the +3 upgrade earlier instead of the Pearl of Power, his weapon would be a +7 equiv and cost 98,000g. Sneako's savings? 98-72 = 26,000g. Wow! With that, Sneako buys another Pearl of Power 3 so Wizo can cast GMW AGAIN on Sneako's offhand dagger, and Sneako picks up a pair of Boots of Speed! Run Sneako run!

See how easy this is? Teams work together, and their efforts benefit everyone! Sneako and Fighty aren't really much of a burden on Wizo, so Wizo can keep doing what wizards do best - Buffing/Debuffing/BCing. Its also more fair to Wizo's player. Why should HE have to expend resources for something that Fighty's player gets all the benefit from? Fighty wins, Wizo wins, and Sneako wins. And then they all go to the kitchen to get some Mt. Dew.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-07, 06:19 AM
And I alluded to this before as well: Buying anything except a Pearl of Power 3 is a criminal misuse of funds in a party with a Wizard.
Really? So that Wizard is going to be at CL 20 as soon as you can afford a +5 weapon? Seems like that's about a +7 boost over the class level.

Plodding along with a daily boost to +3 is cheaper, but it also means missing a lot. With sneak attack, that's a lot of damage that never happens -- and a lot of enemies who stay alive long enough to strike back.

You call it "criminal misuse of funds". I call it insurance.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-07, 06:37 AM
Really? So that Wizard is going to be at CL 20 as soon as you can afford a +5 weapon? Seems like that's about a +7 boost over the class level.

Probably, ya. I mean, my last rogue used +1 Drow Long Knives until level 9. Then finally upgraded both to +1 Wounding Long Knives which lasted until he died at 12th. I never utilized my +to hit to hit enemies. I relied on UMD, wraithstrike and ToB maneuvers.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-07, 06:52 AM
I relied on UMD, wraithstrike and ToB maneuvers. That's one way to go, of course. But that means using up your swift action. I prefer to add Cloistered Cleric when multiclassing with Rogue, and swap the Travel domain for Travel Devotion. Then my swift action gets used to move my speed and still full attack -- and I really want all those attacks to hit. A +5 weapon gets me more hits. More hits = more sneak attack damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-07, 03:01 PM
Really? So that Wizard is going to be at CL 20 as soon as you can afford a +5 weapon? Seems like that's about a +7 boost over the class level.

Plodding along with a daily boost to +3 is cheaper, but it also means missing a lot. With sneak attack, that's a lot of damage that never happens -- and a lot of enemies who stay alive long enough to strike back.

You call it "criminal misuse of funds". I call it insurance.

Better idea would be to give Pearl of Power to the Cleric, who has a Bead of Karma... suddenly, you'll have +5 weapons by level 16. Assuming he doesn't utilize other methods of increasing caster level, in which case you could well BE packing a +5 bonus before you could afford a +5 weapon. Even better, because by the time you can afford a +5 weapon, you've got a +1 weapon with +4 of extra stuff. THEN the Cleric boosts it to a +5... and suddenly, you've got a +9 equivalent weapon, which is a savings of almost 50,000.

Even better, if the Cleric has DMM: Chain Spell. From there, you Chain Reach GMW and MV. On the whole party. So the whole party only needs to get to get you ONE 5th level and ONE 6th level pearl of power. And once you hit level 16, take a dip in Heirophant for Divine Reach, then re-train your Reach Spell feat for something else, and downgrade your Pearls of Power to 3rd and 4th. Assuming you care about 3rd and 4th level spell slots by then.

Keld Denar
2009-08-07, 03:22 PM
You don't have to use Reach Spell on GMW, its already Range: Close. Also, GMW for some reason, is a 4th level cleric spell, so that Pearl of Power would cost you 16,000 instead of 9,000g. Then again, a Wizard can and should use a Bead of Karma as well, with a little UMD. You wouldn't even need more than a couple rank, assuming that during your morning buff time you could retry a few times until you roll a 1 or suceed.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-07, 03:25 PM
A +5 weapon gets me more hits. More hits = more sneak attack damage.

More hits at a higher cost. It's inefficient, and frankly pointless unless you absolutely must have a +5 weapon due to random treasure.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-07, 03:51 PM
You don't have to use Reach Spell on GMW, its already Range: Close. Also, GMW for some reason, is a 4th level cleric spell, so that Pearl of Power would cost you 16,000 instead of 9,000g. Then again, a Wizard can and should use a Bead of Karma as well, with a little UMD. You wouldn't even need more than a couple rank, assuming that during your morning buff time you could retry a few times until you roll a 1 or suceed.

So Wizard/Incantatrix who Chain GMW with a Bead of Karma, then picks up the feat that gives him access to an entire domain, and do the same with Magic Vestments? Works for me.

talus21
2009-08-07, 04:03 PM
Wow that got far more indepth. Than I thought.

Keld Denar
2009-08-07, 04:12 PM
War Domain gives Magic Vestiments (and DIVINE POWAH! LULZ!), so Arcane Disciple: War would work, provided you has some way to extend the reach past touch, since MV is Range: Touch for some reason... (oh...harrow Archmage!), oh, and you had an OK wisdom...or just magic items.

Set
2009-08-07, 05:33 PM
A House rule that DR was reduced by 5 pts / plus, instead of all or nothing, might make a +3 weapon sexier than a +1 keen, flaming weapon for some encounters.

Saph
2009-08-07, 05:55 PM
The short answer is because you don't always have a caster ready to chuck GMW on your weapon whenever you need it.

I've played quite a few games, and I can only remember one where the party consistently had GMW from a wizard every day. And that was because I was the one playing the wizard. :P

- Saph

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 08:00 PM
Saph, my last game had freaking T_G as the wizard! As a tainted scholar!

Cieyrin
2009-08-08, 09:57 AM
Monte Cook came up with a reason to get above +1 a while back and it's certainly an interesting idea. Check it out, if you care to: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction