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Delandel
2009-08-06, 01:46 PM
I'm going to be starting a Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (6th lvl) campaign here on these forums. I'm not the most experienced DM, have about 14 D&D sessions under my belt total. I haven't played with non-core much but I've read over most of the Complete books and have a decent understanding of them. I was wondering if I could get some advice to help avoid stinky cheese so I don't have to spend alot of time tweaking the module to compensate.

Here's what I was thinking:

1) Core / Complete / ToB are all allowed
Those are the books that I own. Keep in mind I am not very familiar with ToB or Complete Psionic, if you use material from there please know your stuff! If you want things from other books, please cite it for me and we will decide together.

2) No abrupt jaunt wizard variant

3) No alter self or polymorph
If you really want it for RP reasons or something, we'll work together to find suitable restrictions.

4) No divine metamagic
We can discuss this one too. I'm mainly concerned about Persist

5) No nightsticks.

6) Eschew Materials is a free feat for the appropriate classes.

7) Spot, Listen, Search, are universal class skills.

8) Two Weapon Fighting feat grants Two Weapon Defence as well.

9) Druids must take the shapeshift variant in PHB2:
Lose: Animal Companion, Wildshape
Gain: Unlimited Swift Action Shapeshift
More information: PHB2 pg.39
If you don't have the book, PM me and I will cite all the rules regarding this for you.

10) Optimizing is fine, but please use your judgement and try to refrain from munchkin cheese.

11) Be gentle! I'm a new DM inexperienced with the wonders of non-core books, but I'm eager to learn. The previous rules are just to avoid munchkin cheese, make the campaign more enjoyable, or make the campaign easier for me to manage. I want you to play the character you WANT to play and have fun with. I really want to help you accomplish that goal. You want a gnome that throws explosive sheep constructs at his enemies? A dragoon that brings death from high above? Let's make it happen. Reasonable tweaks to classes to put them at the same level as the rest of the party, yes absolutely. My only concern is that the module doesn't become broken or no longer challenging, because that hurts the fun for everyone. As long as that doesn't happen I'm open for anything! As the wise Tom Cruise once said, "Help me help you!"

Siosilvar
2009-08-06, 01:50 PM
1) No divine metamagic (or at least no persist)
I've witnessed what this metamagic feat can do, and it's too much. "No nightsticks" should cover this one. Or perhaps a ruling that nightsticks don't stack.

2) No abrupt jaunt wizard variant
There's a thread on WOTC forums on why it's broken that I wanted to quote, but it's down for maintenance. Seems fine.

3) No alter self or polymorph
This could just be limited into something like, "you can only polymorph into something you've personally been in contact with," or something. "Personal contact" could prove a problem at high levels. I'd suggest a list of bonuses you can get, that are in line with other spells of that level.

4) No source that starts with "Dragon Magazine" or "Draconomicon"
No personal experience with these, but I heard a bunch of times that there's alot of broken stuff going on there. Dragon Magic is okay. I don't know about Draconomicon.

Agree/disagree? Should I add anything else to the borked list?

My comments are in blue above.

Glimbur
2009-08-06, 01:51 PM
If you can get your players to agree to stay at about the same power level, that should be enough. That means the full casters will have to control themselves and not play Internet Perfect (TM) wizards and such. The fighters and such should get a little more leeway.

Limiting sources to things you are familiar with makes sense, but most books have some broken, some useful, and some useless stuff in them. Core has both the Wizard and the TWF Ranger, for example.

Woodsman
2009-08-06, 01:52 PM
A lot of Draconomicon is rather useless without dragons/large creatures in the game (At least the player's side of things) IMO, but feats like "Dragon Cohort" are understandable.

It's an opinion of mine. I own the book, and as a dracophile (I can't help it! They're just so awesome!) use it (or try to) frequently.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-06, 01:56 PM
1) No divine metamagic (or at least no persist)
I've witnessed what this metamagic feat can do, and it's too much.

Depends, really. If you want to overall weaken the PCs, then ya. But if you're looking to keep players on the same level with one another then just make Persist affect non-Personal buffs.


2) No abrupt jaunt wizard variant
There's a thread on WOTC forums on why it's broken that I wanted to quote, but it's down for maintenance.

Meh. No wizards makes more sense.


3) No alter self or polymorph
This could just be limited into something like, "you can only polymorph into something you've personally been in contact with," or something.

I agree with this one.


4) No source that starts with "Dragon" or "Draconomicon"
No personal experience with these, but I heard a bunch of times that there's alot of broken stuff going on there.

So Dragon Magic isn't any good? Or Dragon Compendium? Both are good books without any serious problems.

Honestly though: You're going to have to tweak Expedition to Castle Ravenloft anyway. It sucks as is. Any moderately useful PC is going to have a field day with the zombies without wasting any non-HP resources and those can be replenished very easily and near indefinitely.

Natael
2009-08-06, 01:56 PM
For editing the adventure, try changing fighters/monks to warblades and swordsages, give casters good feats/spells, maybe even switch it up and add in a warlock somewhere. Make sure you run through it and give at the very least the important NPCs capability from the books that you allow players to use.

As for your fixes, looks decent enough, I do the same thing for my clerics (though have not had an issue with them).

A few things I do:

Half-Orcs don't have int penalty

Ranger gets full levels for animal companion

Druid has to take PHB2 shapeshift variant

Monk/Fighter/Paladins are now UA Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader, first set of classes are downgraded to NPC classes, you can take them if you want, but mooks may also have them instead of stuff like warrior.

Socerers get either a heritage feat or eschew materials at first level, wizard bonus feats at 5/10/15/20.

You may only have a total of three classes, no more than one PrC.

One thing I don't use, but have considered, is forcing wizards to specialize.

As for feats/spells/alt class features/equipment, I give a blanket OK for PHB stuff and allow others on a case by case basis, usually allowing things that I deem not broken (I have a decent eye for them).


As for rules, rather than character creation restrictions, I allow -Con score, rather than -10 to death. Otherwise, I try not to mess with the basic rules too much.

Woodsman
2009-08-06, 01:58 PM
A few things I do:

Half-Orcs don't have int penalty

Ranger gets full levels for animal companion

Druid has to take PHB2 shapeshift variant

Monk/Fighter/Paladins are now UA Swordsage/Warblade/Crusader, first set of classes are downgraded to NPC classes, you can take them if you want, but mooks may also have them instead of stuff like warrior.

Socerers get either a heritage feat or eschew materials at first level, wizard bonus feats at 5/10/15/20.

You may only have a total of three classes, no more than one PrC.

One thing I don't use, but have considered, is forcing wizards to specialize.

As for feats/spells/alt class features/equipment, I give a blanket OK for PHB stuff and allow others on a case by case basis, usually allowing things that I deem not broken (I have a decent eye for them).


As for rules, rather than character creation restrictions, I allow -Con score, rather than -10 to death. Otherwise, I try not to mess with the basic rules too much.

Funnily enough, that's how I run things. Except Eschew Materials is a given and the wizard feats include heritage feats.

Claudius Maximus
2009-08-06, 01:59 PM
I'd suggest taking a look at Tidesinger's change list for the Test of Spite. There are a lot of good ideas in there, and he seems to have caught all of the most broken stuff.

valadil
2009-08-06, 02:01 PM
1 & 2) agreed.

3) This seems like a good restriction. Alter Self is a pretty decent spell when you aren't using forms only seen in the char ops board. I'm not sure what the current errata is on polymorph. Feel free to go with DM says no, when it comes to ridiculous forms. Another option that I've wanted to see is to base it off knowledge nature ranks. Each rank or two buys a form you can polymorph into. Size limits apply when you buy the form.

4) I prefer to white list certain things from these sources as the players ask. Dragon Magazine in particular has some interesting content, it just hasn't been playtested as thoroughly.

Woodsman
2009-08-06, 02:02 PM
I've thought about giving Half-elves a choice between the humans' bonus feat and the elves' sensory abilities (+2 Bonuses to Spot/Listen/Search, along with door sense).

The half-elf is really rather underpowered.

Eldariel
2009-08-06, 02:02 PM
Fix the core spells (Polymorph-line, Planar Binding-line [soon relevant], 9th level spells [not relevant]) - a thread exists on this; limit DMM to spell levels you could normally cast (or at most, 1 level higher), ban Abrupt Jaunt. That should do it.

Make the Immediate Action Conjuration Defense some AC buff or grant you partial cover or something; summon an obstacle or such.

Delandel
2009-08-06, 02:12 PM
About divine metamagic, ya I put it there to weaken the PCs. From personal experience players complain when they steamroll through everything all the time. There's two ways to go about fixing that: 1) restrict the PCs 2) ramp up the EL of fights. I'd rather just make restrictions before play than have to redo an entire module, it defeats the purpose of me being lazy and using a module anyway!

Yes, nightstick stacking is stupid.

The "Dragon" stuff I just don't know much about. I also don't have them as books. I'm sure there's books under this very vague category that are perfectly acceptable, but I just can't look at them myself to confirm. I have core, complete books, UA, and ToB -- though I've never actually cracked open ToB yet.

@ Natael: I never understood why Rangers have a worse animal companion than druids. I dunno the shapeshift variant but I'll look it up. Dropping out 3 core classes seems quite drastic though. Personally I don't see them being that bad unless you're giving free reigns to crazy optimizers, which I've never experienced. A friend of mine did complain that he felt his monk was too weak when we were running RHoD though (he plays druids alot). Also, it's a level 6-10 campaign, how crazy can some of the other classes be? Wiz/sorc changes, meh, sure. Forcing a wizard to specialize isn't bad at all -- they want to be conjurers anyway if they're optimizing!

Hunter Noventa
2009-08-06, 02:12 PM
Those are decent houserules. A couple we used when we played 3.5, though they're more to make the game more fun all around than to limit powergaming:

1) Spot and Listen are class skills for everyone. So I'm a fighter who can't see anything, making me a terrible guard? Got it! Alternately, use the Pathfinder skill system, so much better.

2) You may give up an attack of opportunity to instead parry a melee attack directed at you. To parry you make an attack roll at your highest attack bonus, if you beat their attack roll, the blow is parried. You can parry as many times per round as you may make attacks of opportunity, and can mix and match the attempts.

brujon
2009-08-06, 02:15 PM
As a CO'er myself, i think a lot of those things you mentioned are valid, while others don't. Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic are all real flavorful books which don't have THAT many cheese going on.

Of the top of my head i remember:

- Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold cheese(Dragonwrought ignores aging penalties, so you get only bonuses. Also you qualify as a True Dragon which may or may not qualify you for epic feats, RAW is silent. But what they DO qualify you for are the dragon feats, and the rites of passage. Loredrake, White Dragonspawn and both Rites add to your CL, while Loredrake also adds to your casting *capabilities* so you effectively gain free spellcasting levels.)

- Dragon Cohort cheese. The feat is just overpowered... That's all. Dragons are really formidable foes, and having one besides you is just, ack. Also you can use them as special mounts AND cohorts at the same time, which just brings more cheddar to the mix.

The rest of the book is pretty ok. The Draconic Words are some weak but cool effects you can give at close to no-cost, but there are also requirements. The most powerful effect is a CL boost. If you make the Rites of Passage sidequests for a Kobold character it's great. Kobolds are REALLY flavorful creatures, and also you have the DRAGONBORN template which is just awesome (And balanced).



The abrupt jaunt wizard... Haven't heard of it til now. Huh. Guess i need to read more.


Polymorph -> Yes, it's cheesy as hell, and the most common and IMHO effective solution is: You BECOME the creature. You DON'T maintain any of your special abilities. All damage carries over regardless of HP totals of you or the creature. If you become a Wartroll, you have the intelligence of a Wartroll and must roleplay accordingly, and no you cannot use any of your OMGWTFPWN spells.. CR of the creature you transform into equals to your CL but cannot exceed 15. Also to transform into any creature you want to, you need to beat the Knowledge Check to know specific details about the creature (Which if i recall correctly, is 25 + Creature's CR). With these restrictions, it tends to roll smoothly. If you slap your restriction of only creatures you've *known* or at least *heard* in game, you could lower the knowledge check.


As for Dragon Magazine material... The access to that material sometimes is difficult, some things are balanced, somethings are not...

Non-Balanced example: Half Minotaur template. +8 Str, large size and other shenanigans for a mere +1 LA? Not balanced, AT ALL.

Balanced example: Hummingbird Familiar. Tiny (Or fine?), familiar, gives you +4 initiative. Doesn't do much more. Fragile but hard to hit, too small to carry wands and stuff, too valuable to be flying around scouting or delivering touch attacks.

I suggest you judge Dragon Magazine in a case by case basis. It sometimes have great ideas... I remember something about stones that contained willpower and essence of sorcerers, so sorcerers could learn extra spells. Albeit at a ridiculously high price. Highly flavorful, high value to Sorcerer-type characters. Makes for a GREAT quest reward. Some ACF's from Dragon are also really cool...

The thing is, it's hard for a DM to be on the loop about every trick and rules lawyering there is, and to keep track of so much different material is tricky. I suggest you judge player's submissions by roleplaying value, if their characters have interesting concepts and roleplaying possibilities you can weave into your story, let them fly, but warn them beforehand that if you catch them trying to badly abuse the rules, they'll get gimped. (Curses work for wonders.)

Don't punish the CO'ers. Punish the munchkins. Trying to minmax in a game is just natural... It's only when it starts to cross into abuse and shunning other players, and otherways ruining the experience that you should take action. Don't get angry because the wizard scryed and knew he would be facing a white dragon and prepared lots of Flame Arrow spells. Make him fight an ALBINO RED DRAGON instead. Make the baddies have Anti-Scrying setups. Make them have teleport re-routing traps.

If you're lucky to have nice players, and savvy to counter any unexpected situations, you could have a ToB min-maxer CO'er alongside a first-time pure fighter and still distill fun from the table. Just divide the rewards accordingly, make retraining available if there's a HUGE gap between party members, and also, talk to them. It works wonders.

I wish you best of luck in your future endeavors and hope this poorly formated wall of text helps you along your game.


EDIT: Alas, i have forgotten about Divine Metamagic. Without nightsticks and CHA-boosting items for turn attempts, and prestige class cheese, there's only so much it can do. I suggest you don't ban it outright. It's a great use for a ability with a very very very narrow use (Undeads). You have to burn lots of turn attempts at a time to be able to really abuse it. If your cleric only has 10 turn attempts, he'll likely save some for when he needs it, and not burn it all. And if he does... Well, there's no place you can't put a living dead, there's it?

TheCountAlucard
2009-08-06, 02:16 PM
I made the Healer class (Miniatures Handbook) into a spontaneous caster. It's a little less gimped that way.

Also, retroactive skill points are nice.

Keld Denar
2009-08-06, 02:16 PM
Roll TWF and TWD into 1 feat.

Strongly encourage the use of Tome of Battle, but clearly outline the couple broken items in it. (RKV is 1/rd, IHS can NOT turn off the universe, you can't WRT yourself...thats it)

Strongly encourage the use of Psionics. They are not only neat, but WAY more balanced than magic could ever be.

..............
Specifically for RtCR, consider using the Turning Damage variant rule in Complete Divine. It'll still be the same effectiveness against the mooky undeaders, and will actually be useful against the strongest undead without being all or nothing.

Natael
2009-08-06, 02:21 PM
@ Natael: I never understood why Rangers have a worse animal companion than druids. I dunno the shapeshift variant but I'll look it up. Dropping out 3 core classes seems quite drastic though. Personally I don't see them being that bad unless you're giving free reigns to crazy optimizers, which I've never experienced. A friend of mine did complain that he felt his monk was too weak when we were running RHoD though (he plays druids alot). Also, it's a level 6-10 campaign, how crazy can some of the other classes be? Wiz/sorc changes, meh, sure. Forcing a wizard to specialize isn't bad at all -- they want to be conjurers anyway if they're optimizing!

Monk/Fighter/Paladin, technically, I'm not actually dropping them, they are still open to players (as are aristocrat, expert and commoner technically speaking). I'm running off modules (Forge of Fury --> Red Hand of Doom for those that care), so I am forewarning them that if an NPC is a warrior, I'll probably make them fighters, and if they are fighters, they'll probably be warblades now, same with monk --> SS and paladin --> Crusader.

Shapeshift variant takes away wildshape and the animal companion, gives shapeshift instead. Give the druid a straight stat bonus based on level, some shapeshifting from level 1, and access to generic offensive, flying, and elemental forms that the player can flavour themselves, while not being rediculously crazy like normal wildshape, plus they don't have to delve through all the MMs looking for things to turn into.

I change the sorc just to make it more appealing and have a reason to actually stay in the class. Casters are pretty crazy even from level 1 (I was playing a level 1 sorc that was making encounters crazy easy via color spray, it scared the other players how good it was).

Blackfang108
2009-08-06, 02:50 PM
4) No source that starts with "Dragon" or "Draconomicon"
No personal experience with these, but I heard a bunch of times that there's alot of broken stuff going on there.

Allow Dragon Magic, as it is (FWICT) not unbalanced, and full of nifty.

Especially for Dragon Shamans. (Double Draconic Aura alone is worth it, as are the extra Auras.)

Sliver
2009-08-07, 01:45 AM
I donno, I think limiting your players only to sources you are familiar with is pretty valid. But you should allow your players to give you the book or at least point out the stuff they wan't to take so you could allow things on a case-by-case basis.

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 02:17 AM
Have you seen the fix list for ToS? It covers a lot of these bases. As said, dragon magic is okay. More than okay, in fact. It's a great book that adds a lot for a number of different archetypes. It even has ACFs for favored souls!

oxinabox
2009-08-07, 03:22 AM
Here what I ran with in a 'soft' campaign for new players:
All swords are usable with weapon finesse (excluding fullblade, which isn't a sword, it a sharpened i don't know what)

Ninja gets proficency with asianafied versions of all swords.
I know this isn't historically accurate.
(forcing them to use the monk list sucks, cos they don't get flury of blows - the whole reason to use weak monk weapons (well that, and it's better than posioning your fists))

Ninja's don't take a penality to there number of Ki for having negitive wis
Normal max ki=3+wis

ninja's don't take a penality to there AC from negitive wis.
(it's just a bad idea to have negitive wis, cos without armour proficency you'll need if)

Yes i made ninja very differnt (easier).

Don't think this is much help to you though.

Killer Angel
2009-08-07, 03:36 AM
Balanced example: Hummingbird Familiar. Tiny (Or fine?), familiar, gives you +4 initiative. Doesn't do much more. Fragile but hard to hit, too small to carry wands and stuff, too valuable to be flying around scouting or delivering touch attacks.


Curiously, I've always found this unbalanced. +4 to initiative is VERY good.
With Improved Initiative your wizard will almost always goes first, even at low levels.

Yora
2009-08-07, 03:59 AM
Funnily enough, that's how I run things. Except Eschew Materials is a given and the wizard feats include heritage feats.
And it's pretty much what I do, among other things.

Triaxx
2009-08-07, 05:40 AM
One of the few rules I use constantly is: If you take skill focus for a skill not of your class, it becomes a class skill.

Brauron
2009-08-07, 07:17 AM
I think it might have already been mentioned, but to reiterate: Spot, Listen and Search are class skills for all classes, and Tumble is a class skill for Fighters.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-07, 07:28 AM
A couple of weapons got shabby treatment by WotC, and I like to fix that.

Rapid Reload and Manyshot (up to 4 bullets in the pouch) also apply to slings.

For any feats or weapon special abilities where they mention heavy crossbows, add great crossbows there as well. Great crossbows remain exotic weapons.

brujon
2009-08-07, 09:42 AM
Curiously, I've always found this unbalanced. +4 to initiative is VERY good.
With Improved Initiative your wizard will almost always goes first, even at low levels.


Yes, +4 to initiative is VERY, VERY good. But, the hummingbird is too fragile to do most of the stuff other familiars do, such as delivering touch spells, scouting ahead, too small to carry wands, cannot activate command word items, etc... So i think it's balanced, all the disadvantages offset the +4 to initiative.


Some things i though i should mention that should go to the ban list: Craft Contingent Spell and Celerity. Craft Contingent spell is just too unbalanced, even if it's pricey, it makes the wizard invincible if used correctly, as is celerity. Wings of Flurry and Maw of Chaos are also spells which i consider too powerful. Enervation, specially when metamagicked, is a win-button. And it's too easy to metamagic it with the right PRC's (Incantatrix, Recaster...). So you might want to have a chat with your players if they start dropping your BBEG's with that every time. I have seen it happen. 10~12 negative levels every time. Not cool. Ray of Exhaustion, Shivering Touch, etc... Are also easily abusable with metamagic and can become win buttons.

I'd also disallow that cleric spell, can't remember the name, that gives the cleric full-bab for the duration of the spell and some plus to strenght. Too powerful. It effectively transforms the cleric in a GISH with no investment whatsoever. But i'd only disallow it if not using ToB for melee classes. If you use ToB it's okay. The cleric will still hit small compared to sublime way, most clerics will prefer to buff the ToB players and stick to support.

Also, if someone is planning to play a monk, tell them to use an unarmed swordsage. So much better, and equally flavorful.

As for house-rules... I'd say that if a class skill is a class skill for one of your classes, it stays a class skill throughout your career. It just makes sense. You train in something to make it easy on you to learn because it relates to your class, that's a class skill. You don't forget your other training just because you broadened your trade.

I also normally require my players to have at least one Craft or Profession skill, to reflect what they did prior to adventuring. They're not required to advance it, just have at least 1 rank in it.

I also modify my players alignments according to their actions, but don't tell them that. Except if they're paladins and just fell, or something like that. They'll only discover it when they think they're immune to some effect that only targets evil, but then they're affected. Makes for some great immersion in game.

=]

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 09:46 AM
Elven wizard substitution levels suggest that perhaps the humming bird is not balanced. +8 to init for..... having a familiar and being a grey elf? Gee Golly! No. No No No, and also no. The hummingbird is extremely powerful, bordering on badly broken. It, by the way, only starts fragile. Familiars are trivially easy to buff. I have a friend who routinely casts Body of War on his familiar.


Body. Of War. Go look it up, I'll wait.

brujon
2009-08-07, 10:42 AM
Okay, i retract my previous statement. The hummingbird familiar can be broken. Doesn't mean it is broken all by itself. By itself it's balanced. It's when you go around buffing your familiar and using ACF's that stuff begins to fall apart. Take for example the raven familiar. I had a friend which used to give his raven familiar command-activated wands and used him to rain death from above in his enemies. Use protective buffs in him, or heck even make him invisible. It's powerful all the same. Familiars are really powerful class abilities. If you begin to use improved familiars things start to get silly... There's tons of abuses to go with the familiars. It's hard to create a new feature to an existing game and consider all of the implications of that new addition. I doubt anyone considered the implications when they created the Hulking Hurler. They probably playtested it for a bit, saw it was okay, but then someone threw magic and special materials and stuff got silly quickly. The Half Minotaur template on the other hand, that's broken all by itself.

But, yes, i think maybe +4 to init is too much, it should be +2 or +3 at most to be in-line with what other familiars give you. That way it's not that broken when you slap the Grey Elf substitution levels on top of it...

Myrmex
2009-08-07, 01:24 PM
Draconomicon has Rapidstrike, which gives you extra attacks with pairs of natural weapons. You have to be an aberration (elan) or dragon (dragonwrought kobold) to take it, but it can make melee characters very brutal.

Delandel
2009-08-07, 01:32 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I've updated my houserule list a bit more and added some blanket statements.

I wish I could be more specific about the rulings or take more in, but I'm simply not experienced enough as a DM to understand why some rulings exist in the first place, let alone be good enough to enforce them. I read tidesinger's rulings and understood about 10% of it sadly.

Unless I missed something huge, I think I'm ready to start up my campaign! :smallbiggrin:

deuxhero
2009-08-07, 02:41 PM
it can make melee characters very brutal.

Is that a bad thing?

Myrmex
2009-08-07, 02:55 PM
Is that a bad thing?

It depends. Despite the caster snobbery on CharOp boards, in a real game, having a melee character with an 80 to 95% chance of killing something in a single turn can be a bit of a headache. Most casters with SoDs have somewhere around a 60% chance of forcing a SoD, and they also have to guess which saves are bad.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-07, 04:01 PM
I'd also disallow that cleric spell, can't remember the name, that gives the cleric full-bab for the duration of the spell and some plus to strenght. Too powerful. It effectively transforms the cleric in a GISH with no investment whatsoever. But i'd only disallow it if not using ToB for melee classes.
There are multiple spells that do this now, but the core one is Divine Power. The Wizard/Sorcerer equivalent is Tenser's Transformation.

There is an investment, though: these spells are 1 round/level, which means you'll be spending the first round every combat getting powered up, or investing heavily in Persistent Spell.

Kemper Boyd
2009-08-07, 04:31 PM
One I always use: Players that properly describe their attacks get a +1 or +2 modifier on their attack rolls.

Also, you might want to look into E6 (or E8) rules since highlevel characters are fundamentally unbalanced in vanilla 3.5.

Rixx
2009-08-07, 04:53 PM
One I always use: Players that properly describe their attacks get a +1 or +2 modifier on their attack rolls.

Also, you might want to look into E6 (or E8) rules since highlevel characters are fundamentally unbalanced in vanilla 3.5.

I pull the same kind of stuff, but it's usually for plot-appropriate reasons. (I.E. getting a +1 for abandoning your current opponent to attack someone who's hurting your friend)

Kemper Boyd
2009-08-07, 05:14 PM
I pull the same kind of stuff, but it's usually for plot-appropriate reasons. (I.E. getting a +1 for abandoning your current opponent to attack someone who's hurting your friend)

I give +1 if its a proper description and +2 if it a great description. Plot-appropriate maneuvers might give +2.

Rixx
2009-08-07, 05:29 PM
I also think it's a good idea to give bonuses (or bonus EXP) when your character does something appropriate to their character that actually hurts your current situation.

brujon
2009-08-08, 12:10 PM
There are multiple spells that do this now, but the core one is Divine Power. The Wizard/Sorcerer equivalent is Tenser's Transformation.

There is an investment, though: these spells are 1 round/level, which means you'll be spending the first round every combat getting powered up, or investing heavily in Persistent Spell.

Well... Not so much an investment as a minor nuisance, if i may say. Lesser Metamagic Rods of Quicken? Done as a swift action. DMM-Persist ? Again, not so much an investment as a nuisance. Turn Undead isn't really that powerful or that useful, as being able to smack things in their faces as well as a fighter? It is. You also have Extend Spell, which is not as powerful and game-breaking as Persist Spell, but it's useful nonetheless. Tenser's Transformation is not as powerful as Divine Power because of DMM-Persist, and the fact that the wizard deals more damage by chucking spells at things than smacking them in their faces with a sword. No self-respecting mage would use it. But a cleric, he has heaps of buff spells, many of which are personal range, and he can become a machine of destruction, not unlike the druid when wildshaped. And for the price of one class ability/one spell?

It's too powerful IMHO. There's a reason why Clerics and Druids are collectively referred to as CoDzillas. They just OWN in core. Mages pwn too, but with only core, less so than CoDzillas. But when you add splatbooks...


This discussion also reminded me of something.

Gate, the spell. It's not an immediate concern as it's a 9th level spell, but when it becomes available, it's TOTALLY GAME BREAKING. Gate Solar, command Solar to gate other Solar, etc.. etc... And this is just the more common form of abuse, there's also Ring Gates and stuff. Also, Shapechange. Can possibly make you cry tears of agony as a DM. Be VERY, VERY careful around those two spells when seen in a spellbook. When you see that, be prepared to throw around a few Antimagic Fields and Mordenkainen's Disjunction to counter it, because it's going to get ugly.

My 2 cp's.

Clementx
2009-08-08, 12:21 PM
Summoning/calling abuse can be greatly limited by adding this clause to the Conjuration school description-

"A called creature demands compensation for casting spells with XP components, or using spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells, equal to 5gp per XP, in addition to any other price the calling entails. A summoned creature also cannot use its own calling or teleportation abilities."

This gives called creatures an (expensive) advantage over just summons, and expands the summon restrictions to cover other loopholes. If you really want to fix them, you would base their limits on CR instead of HD which rewards calling abusive, low-HD casting creatures (i.e the best ones anyways), instead of high-HD-for-their-CR tanks.

Doc Roc
2009-08-08, 12:32 PM
It depends. Despite the caster snobbery on CharOp boards, in a real game, having a melee character with an 80 to 95% chance of killing something in a single turn can be a bit of a headache. Most casters with SoDs have somewhere around a 60% chance of forcing a SoD, and they also have to guess which saves are bad.

Erm, the CharOp Boards also produce ridiculously deadly melee characters.

Serenity
2009-08-08, 04:27 PM
The first house rule I always institute as a DM is a significant consolidation of the skill list, including:

1) Spot and Listen (and Search, at your option) are combined into a single Perception skill, available as a Class Skill to all.
2) Hide and Move Silently are combined into a single Stealth skill.

Those two are the most important to houserule in my mind--there's exceedingly little reason to seperate them . They just make for added bookkeeping, and an arbitrary and unneeded point sink. I also like to roll Spellcraft/Psicraft/Martial Lore into relevant knowledge skills, and I like most of the consolidations Pathfinder has made.

Another key houserule is so common as to almost go without saying: just drop favored classes altogether.

deuxhero
2009-08-08, 06:02 PM
Summoning/calling abuse can be greatly limited by adding this clause to the Conjuration school description-

"A called creature demands compensation for casting spells with XP components, or using spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells, equal to 5gp per XP, in addition to any other price the calling entails. A summoned creature also cannot use its own calling or teleportation abilities."

This gives called creatures an (expensive) advantage over just summons, and expands the summon restrictions to cover other loopholes. If you really want to fix them, you would base their limits on CR instead of HD which rewards calling abusive, low-HD casting creatures (i.e the best ones anyways), instead of high-HD-for-their-CR tanks.

Except that Planar Binding's existing requirements would make things like demanding compensation impossible.

Delandel
2009-08-08, 06:38 PM
The first house rule I always institute as a DM is a significant consolidation of the skill list, including:

1) Spot and Listen (and Search, at your option) are combined into a single Perception skill, available as a Class Skill to all.
2) Hide and Move Silently are combined into a single Stealth skill.

Those two are the most important to houserule in my mind--there's exceedingly little reason to seperate them . They just make for added bookkeeping, and an arbitrary and unneeded point sink. I also like to roll Spellcraft/Psicraft/Martial Lore into relevant knowledge skills, and I like most of the consolidations Pathfinder has made.

Another key houserule is so common as to almost go without saying: just drop favored classes altogether.

Favored class I agree.

The skill merging I somewhat agree. It's true that sight/hearing both contribute to the general idea of perception. However, a blind person probably is terrible at his search / spot checks in most situations, but that doesn't mean he's barred from being a good listener. I can see an argument for merging spot / search though. Good eyes are good eyes.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-08, 08:07 PM
The skill merging I somewhat agree. It's true that sight/hearing both contribute to the general idea of perception. However, a blind person probably is terrible at his search / spot checks in most situations, but that doesn't mean he's barred from being a good listener. I can see an argument for merging spot / search though. Good eyes are good eyes.

Generally when I consolidate skills I'll mark bonuses and penalties with descriptors as appropriate--goggles of whatever would give a Perception [Sight] bonus, for instance, and a blind person would have a penalty to same--which lets you reap the benefits of consolidated skills without loss of generality.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-08, 10:05 PM
Well... Not so much an investment as a minor nuisance, if i may say. Lesser Metamagic Rods of Quicken? Done as a swift action. DMM-Persist ? Again, not so much an investment as a nuisance. Turn Undead isn't really that powerful or that useful ...

My 2 cp's.
Not an investment? Boy, do we have different opinions on that. A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken costs 35,000 gp. That certainly seems like an investment. And a Cleric gets no bonus feats; their only listed special class feature is turn or rebuke undead (though they also get domains). "DMM-Persist" isn't one feat; it's all of the following:
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
Extra Turning (to have enough turn attempts to persist one spell)
Four feats looks like a pretty big character investment to me. And not one I'd make since turn/rebuke attempts can be used for other things, such as powering domain feats like Travel Devotion.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 10:57 PM
Who takes Extra Turning? Nightsticks are they way to go.

EDIT: And can't you get Extend from a Domain? Still not negligible, but it does seem to cut your number in half.

Oh, and won't a reasonable Cha allow to persist one spell?

quick_comment
2009-08-08, 11:10 PM
Not to mention the extra turning you can get from soldier of light, binder, etc.

olentu
2009-08-08, 11:14 PM
Who takes Extra Turning? Nightsticks are they way to go.

EDIT: And can't you get Extend from a Domain? Still not negligible, but it does seem to cut your number in half.

Oh, and won't a reasonable Cha allow to persist one spell?

That would be the planning domain.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-08, 11:23 PM
Who takes Extra Turning? Nightsticks are they way to go. As Nightsticks aren't standard items, convincing your DM to let you have one may be problematic -- unless your DM is throwing advanced undead enemies at you from Libris Mortis.

EDIT: And can't you get Extend from a Domain? Still not negligible, but it does seem to cut your number in half. You can get both Extra Turning and Extend Spell from domain powers (Undeath and Planning, respectively). But that comes at the expense of all the other domains you could take instead. So you wouldn't change the expense at all; you'd just pay for it differently.

Oh, and won't a reasonable Cha allow to persist one spell? Only if you think a minimum Charisma of 18 is reasonable for a Cleric. I don't. You want your WIS to be that high, and only the maximum suggested (32) point buy can give you 2 18s to start -- with 4 8s, so your character probably wouldn't last past 1st level. :smallfrown:
A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.
You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using.
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 11:24 PM
So you can have all necessary feats at level 1, without flaws. Not a huge deal, methinks.

You can even have 1 spell persisted at level. Undeath (I think) gives extra turning, and then it's pitifully easy to get the turning attempts to persist a spell.

EDIT: heh heh... a 12 looks good enough for me, or have you forgotten about +6 cha items? Sure, not going to have them at level 1, but they aren't that expensive for even moderately high level characters. Cheaper than a permanent spell, anyway.

Also, saying a DM won't allow it is not a real defense. When will epople stop saying that. Wizards are the most powerful class, but most DMs won't let them be. Fighters can be the most powerful class when the DM gives them 9th level arcane, divine, martial and psionic abilities, but it's ALL DM FIAT. DM FIAT IS NOT APPLICABLE. I don't care how you run your games. They do not apply. I run my games with a plethora of house rules, even making stuff up as the Rule of Cool dictates, but I don't bring that in. Why do you? It's impossible to argue against houserules, because they can be sprung out of no where, with no warning, and nothing beats DM fiat. So again, screw your houserules.

Anyway, as far as clerics go, they've used up 3 out of (most likely) 8 feats. What 6 feats are you just dying to have so much that persist isn't worth the cost?

Curmudgeon
2009-08-08, 11:27 PM
So you can have all necessary feats at level 1, without flaws. Not a huge deal, methinks.
Yes, you can. You give up all the other options that 2 feats and 2 domains could give you -- basically everything but spells that a Cleric gets.

Yeah, it's a huge deal.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 11:32 PM
Note my edit, btw.


Ok, what two feats and domains would you rather take at first level. Rather than persisting a spell, that is.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-09, 01:15 AM
Ok, what two feats and domains would you rather take at first level. Rather than persisting a spell, that is. I like to play Cloistered Clerics with good battlefield mobility.

Domains: Pride (reroll 1s on any saving throw, once per save) and Celerity (+10' speed, plus Expeditious Retreat and 7 other spells that aren't on the Cleric list)
Feats: Travel Devotion (swift action moves), Knowledge Devotion (bonuses to hit and damage vs. everything)

Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) is a big investment just waiting for one Dispel Magic to make it meaningless.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-09, 01:25 AM
I'd personally disallow Shock Trooper as a feat, and instead of forcing all druids into the shapechange variant, offer other variations...specifically, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) one. Especially if you're cutting out wildshape...allow them a way to simply avoid that aspect of being a druid.

Using that varient, and Vow of Poverty, is how I make the druids that match the image in my mind of how a druid should be. Not laden down with Amulets of Wisdom +6 and other gagetry, just simple people, very in touch with the natural world.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 01:27 AM
A cleric can go into soldier of light and sacred exorcist to triple his turning attempts. Now its 9+3*cha mod.




The turning mechanics could be really simplified.

Here:

Clerics, 3+cha mod times per day, can as a standard action turn or rebuke undead. If you turn undead, the turning attempt deals (1d6+cha mod) per cleric level to all undead within 30ft. If you rebuke undead, the rebuke heals undead (1d6+cha mod) per cleric level. Instead of healing the undead, the rebuking cleric may command them instead.

sofawall
2009-08-09, 01:30 AM
And yet the Clericzilla loves it so much...

So yeah, 3 feats isn't that bad. Either use flaws or use the feats at 3, 6 and 9, leaving 12 open for quicken, 15 for DMM quicken and 18 for, oh, I dunno, power attack?

It's very workable, and you get a large increase in power from those three feats.

Oh, the ninjas...

Curmudgeon
2009-08-09, 01:56 AM
A cleric can go into soldier of light and sacred exorcist to triple his turning attempts. Now its 9+3*cha mod.
No, it doesn't work that way for either PrC.
Sacred exorcists can turn undead as clerics do. If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level.Sacred Exorcists don't get turn undead all over again if they already have the ability from being a Cleric; instead the class levels stack.
A soldier of light can turn undead. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He turns undead as a cleric of his soldier of light level.

If the soldier can already turn undead, his effective effective turning level is his previous effective level plus his soldier of light level. He does not gain extra turning attempts in a day. That one's really clear.

brujon
2009-08-09, 02:42 AM
I said it's a nuisance only because the benefits you reap greatly outset the disadvantages. With DMM-Persist, you can duplicate almost any effect at close to no cost to you. You use turn attempts, which are expendable. You have a plethora of spells that can increase CHA at a low level. Then you have more turn attempts, then you can persist more spells... And an often overlooked thing, is that you can persist level 3+ spells PRE-EPIC. The only way a wizard/sorcerer can do that is by dropping an entire school to enter Incantatrix to be able to persist any spell pre-epic. And oh, they have to burn MORE feats to do that, because of entry requirements. And really, what do you lose with your domain choices?

Let's see some things you can do with DMM-persist...

-> Become better at bashing things than the fighter by persisting Divine Power.

-> Have +4 to almost any stat all day.

-> You can have elemental resistances put up all day.

-> Damage reduction all day.

-> Protection against mind affecting spells all day.

etc...


With splatbooks, you could even do more... And if you use the ruling that "touch" is a fixed range, you have EVEN MORE options to persist. I'm not sure on that one, but i think you can use metamagic on scrolls with DMM-Persist, since you're not actually increasing the level. Not sure on that one. But if it's doable, you could persist druid spells for even more silliness.

So, yeah, 2 feats at 1st level as a human and 2 not-so-useful domains to be better at everything in the long run is a minor nuisance, methinks.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-09, 03:41 AM
I said it's a nuisance only because the benefits you reap greatly outset the disadvantages.
Your benefits go away immediately with one targeted Dispel Magic.

And if you use the ruling that "touch" is a fixed range, you have EVEN MORE options to persist. I'm not sure on that one
I'm sure. "Touch" isn't at all fixed; it's a variable distance that depends on your reach.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-09, 04:00 AM
Oh! Since you're a new DM, I'd shoot down any 'custom' magic items. It's very easy to trick those out and cut the cost by making them bound to skill, race, class, etc.

Edit: But you can do that with Core Only...

deuxhero
2009-08-09, 07:58 PM
As Nightsticks aren't standard items, convincing your DM to let you have one may be problematic -- unless your DM is throwing advanced undead enemies at you from Libris Mortis.


Question:What DM allows DMM persist, but disallows nightsticks?

Curmudgeon
2009-08-09, 09:24 PM
Question:What DM allows DMM persist, but disallows nightsticks?
Well, obviously any DMs who use just the Core + Completes. That's about half of them, in my experience. Not every DM has all the books, and it's stupid to try to work with something you know diddly about. So most DMs keep it to the books they own.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-09, 09:51 PM
Question:What DM allows DMM persist, but disallows nightsticks?

*raises hand*

...

Well, I don't technically disallow nightsticks, but I've told my players "You can use anything in the rules you want as long as you don't mind the baddies using it too," so they've self-policed to that point.

Siosilvar
2009-08-09, 09:53 PM
Oh! Since you're a new DM, I'd shoot down any 'custom' magic items. It's very easy to trick those out and cut the cost by making them bound to skill, race, class, etc.

Edit: But you can do that with Core Only...

Custom Items are in the DMG, but cost-reducers aren't.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 09:57 PM
Question:What DM allows DMM persist, but disallows nightsticks?

I say that nightsticks dont stack with themselves, which is almost as good.

ideasmith
2009-08-11, 10:49 PM
I would recommend a maximum age, to go with the minimum specified on page 109 of the Player's Handbook. Make it low enough that player characters won't be starting out dead of old age. The age listed under the Venerable column of Table 6-5: AGING EFFECTS should do fine, unless you also want to prevent age bonuses.

sofawall
2009-08-12, 01:56 AM
Custom Items are in the DMG, but cost-reducers aren't.

You are wrong.

Doc Roc
2009-08-12, 02:23 AM
Question:What DM allows DMM persist, but disallows nightsticks?

Hey, over here.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-12, 07:37 AM
You are wrong.

More specifically, the race/class/etc. bindings and other such discounts are in a DMG sidebar; the various feats like Mercantile Background and the Eberron crafting feats are not.