Familicide speculation

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, they don't have to share Mama's blood; just (say) the blood of Mama's great-grandma's child's mother, or whatever. If the spell works as V claims, though, it probably should have wiped out almost all life on, er, Virga (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6457009#post6457009) or whatever the planet is called. Hm, I guess Haerta didn't know what all the limits on the spell were...hm...I think there might be some dragons ready to attack V! WATCH OUT, V!!!
I think I'll start a thread about the possibility revealed.

Well, I did. I think that there is probably some black dragon or whatever that is angry at V for killing a close relative/friend. Will this actually develop? Maybe not. Will it cause a repeat of Familicide? I hope not! But maybe.

Thoughts?

[Blue Ghost]

A repeat of Familicide? Not likely. I think that the most likely scenario, if anything develops out of the Familicide at all, is that Tiamat herself will come after V.

[Ancalagon]

Well, Vaarsuvius' idea to solve that issue with that spell was an utterly stupid idea, I think we agree on that. And yes, it will have a follow-up, that, no matter what, won't look good for Vaarsuvius...

[AlexanderRM]

I suspect that if there was a limitation of some sort, which would mean that the spell only exponentially increased the number of angry relatives, then it wouldn't have been developed.

But then... I'm reminded of Xykon's comment about how the people in the Soul Splice were those who couldn't stay in the game... is it possible that they were too stupid to realize the implications of the spell and that they used it and were killed by a huge mob of relatives?

But really, I sorta feel like Rich is just going to ignore the issue.

[Haven]

But really, I sorta feel like Rich is just going to ignore the issue.

The Giant is not known for dropping stuff like this.

I don't think there is going to be any direct fallout from Tiamat herself--it seems like the IFCC's deal protects V from that. But V'll almost certainly be targeted by dragons sooner or later. There's no better way for the party to find out about this sort of stuff than in the middle of a heated battle.

[veti]

I suspect that if there was a limitation of some sort, which would mean that the spell only exponentially increased the number of angry relatives, then it wouldn't have been developed.

Well, really - how would Haerta even know, until she'd tried it at least once? And at that point, it's too late. Presumably, successive castings would yield diminishing returns (as families overlap).

I subscribe to the "familicide is just too big to ignore" school of thinking on this. I look forward to seeing just how it comes back to haunt V, but one way or another, I'm sure she's in for some very uncomfortable encounters to come.

[Far]

Assuming there is some fallout, I'm more interested in what happens when V's various allies and acquaintances find out that V used a spell called 'Familicide.' V seemed to have done a good job of not letting on what was going on to those of the relevant alignments (i.e. not Belkar), but considering that the Familicide issue would most likely come back in the form of angry dragons screaming about dragon genocide, everyone anywhere near V will find out.

[Kish]

.
Are you the founder of a great order of blackguards?

Ahem--back on topic, I hope to see the look on Vaarsuvius' face when the fiends explain to him that, in fact, they actually meant it when they said s/he would have absolute control of the splice, and everything they did was Vaarsuvius' own free choice.

[Cryssandra]

A repeat of Familicide? Not likely. I think that the most likely scenario, if anything develops out of the Familicide at all, is that Tiamat herself will come after V.

Ooooh.... I hope Tiamat doesn't come after V, I'm not ready for him/her to die yet...

[David Argall]

I subscribe to the "familicide is just too big to ignore" school of thinking on this.
I subscribe to the "familicide is just too big NOT to ignore" school.
Really, just what sort of response can be made? If it's anything in scale, it squashes V and the party like bugs. If it's not in scale, it's completely inadequate. Much better to just ignore it, or rather in our case to move the response pretty much off camera and away from the party. The Fiends catch the heat, not V, and we will see very little on the subject.

[Lizard Lord]

It doesn't have to a dragon that wants revenge. Maybe it is a human fighter wizard that wants to avenge the death of his half dragon best friend.

[Herald Alberich]

I believe I've read speculation that some overzealous clerics of Tiamat might get in the way - after all, she's one of the Western gods. Even if she herself was mollified by the IFCC, her clerics might not have gotten the memo. That would be a more level-appropriate encounter than a goddess or an army of chromatic dragons.

[Tijne]

We still don't know the specifics on the home-brew epic-level spell which was researched specifically to stop people from taking revenge... so I kind of side with the idea that it isn't so heavily flawed.

I stand in the "Familicide got rid of anyone who would in the future come after V or his family for the death of any one of it's target. [(Or look like they might possibly happen to be coming somewhere near said action at some unspecificied point in the future; just to be sure.)]" party.


The only one I can imagine that would not be effected by the spell but care about the death is Tiamat... and she's being appeased by the fiends. I doubt she even holds V responsible.




When V ressurected the black dragon, she was happy to be with her family again... Isn't all V doing doing is reuniting the entire family to the dragon-after-life, or whatever it is in OOTS? ;)

[Zadus]

When V ressurected the black dragon, she was happy to be with her family again... Isn't all V doing doing is reuniting the entire family to the dragon-after-life, or whatever it is in OOTS? ;)

Wow... evil

[Corwin Weber]

Eep.... I just thought of something.....



How many of the dragons V just offed.... have mates?

They're (presumably at least) not blood relatives, so Familicide wouldn't have killed them.

[Kish]

We still don't know the specifics on the home-brew epic-level spell which was researched specifically to stop people from taking revenge...
Excuse me? You start with "we still don't know the specifics," and then in the latter half of the sentence you make a huge unsupported assertion. You think Haerta Bloodsoak, when she researched that spell, was primarily concerned with stopping people from taking revenge? You think, not only that this is a serious possibility, but that this is clear enough to claim as an established fact? Wow.

[rewinn]

Eep.... I just thought of something.....



How many of the dragons V just offed.... have mates?

They're (presumably at least) not blood relatives, so Familicide wouldn't have killed them.


Hrm!

Perhaps you have uncovered the reason it is an Epic Spell, and not a Flawless Spell.


Well, really - how would Haerta even know, until she'd tried it at least once? And at that point, it's too late. Presumably, successive castings would yield diminishing returns (as families overlap).

I subscribe to the "familicide is just too big to ignore" school of thinking on this. I look forward to seeing just how it comes back to haunt V, but one way or another, I'm sure she's in for some very uncomfortable encounters to come.
From the hints of her character we've gotten, I suspect Haerta didn't really mind annoying a lot of survivors or, as she might see it, pre-dead people.

And wouldn't it be inconvenient if a pack of Really Annoyed Dragons showed up at the Climactic Battle Against Xykon?

[Omegonthesane]

Excuse me? You start with "we still don't know the specifics," and then in the latter half of the sentence you make a huge unsupported assertion. You think Haerta Bloodsoak, when she researched that spell, was primarily concerned with stopping people from taking revenge? You think, not only that this is a serious possibility, but that this is clear enough to claim as an established fact? Wow.

"One of my friends has a special epic necromancy spell for just such an occasion as this." The occasion being: 'I have killed someone; I must make sure no one tries to avenge them'.

It would be hard to give a single consequence to Familicide in scale with the act. How about if V got level-appropriate dragon encounters on a regular basis for the rest of her life as people tried to get revenge? Spread out over a lifetime a huge response might not be so overwhelming. Not to mention it would make another running gag if she got really good at getting rid of them.

[Puns de León]

Seems to me, though that's a nice side-effect of the spell, that V's aim wasn't to eliminate any possibility of avenging the Ancient Black Dragon Mother's death, which would create problems for V, it was to absolutely crush said dragon for what she wanted to do to him/her. S/he wasn't worrying about the future, only about getting his/her revenge.


:vaarsuvius: "You say you're going to kill my immediate family? My mate and our two adopted kids whom I love very much, of course, but who aren't quite enough to keep me from spending most of my time researching magic or adventuring? Well, now that I've got enough power to do so, I'm going to do you a hundred times worse! I mean, I've already rubbed out your son because he was clearly evil and hoarding tons of treasure and XP that I could find a better use for, but now that you dare to do something about that, I'm going to do in all your nephews as well!"


It's really quite an evil act, though it was done desperately, in the midst of a nervous breakdown and while suffering from understandable anguish.

Oh, and Haerta certainly didn't care about repercussions; her deal was to influence (read: kill) as many people/monsters as logically possible with one spell.

[spargel]

Seems to me, though that's a nice side-effect of the spell, that V's aim wasn't to eliminate any possibility of avenging the Ancient Black Dragon Mother's death, which would create problems for V, it was to absolutely crush said dragon for what she wanted to do to him/her. S/he wasn't worrying about the future, only about getting his/her revenge.


She probably honestly thought it would protect her family while also wanting revenge. People can do things for, you know, multiple reasons.

[Taekwondodo]

How about if V got level-appropriate dragon encounters on a regular basis for the rest of her life as people tried to get revenge? Spread out over a lifetime a huge response might not be so overwhelming. Not to mention it would make another running gag if she got really good at getting rid of them.

This seems to me to be the most likely course that Rich would take this. (if indeed he chooses to take it anywhere...)

[Tass]

:vaarsuvius: "Had you simply attacked me I would have left you dead, but you made the mistake of including my family in our conflict"

Sounds like revenge to me.

[gibbo88]

According to what V says in #640 all the direct relations, and their direct relations are dead...the dragon has no relatives left, and I doubt that there are that many Black Dragons that have long lists of friends?

[Bibliomancer]

According to what V says in #640 all the direct relations, and their direct relations are dead...the dragon has no relatives left, and I doubt that there are that many Black Dragons that have long lists of friends?

Technically, a dragon wouldn't be related to a mate...so it's quite possible that a lot of dragons will come home to empty caves.

Another sloppy thing about the spell is that the bodies stay behind, ready to be raised.