Calling All Playgrounders: In need of help with dragons.

[Jergmo]

I'm going to be running a low-magic campaign in which folks level slower and high level folks are very rare; there might be a handful of level 17's or something in the world, but I'm not sure if there would really be any higher. Plus, we're using variant rules where half of their natural armor bonus equals straight damage reduction, so that just makes them tougher.

The question is: do dragons need to be brought down to scale a bit, and if so, what things can be done to make it so, apart from making dragons rarer? :smallconfused:

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The question is: do dragons need to be brought down to scale a bit, and if so, what things can be done to make it so, apart from making dragons rarer? :smallconfused:
Make them younger or just use the RAW stats for younger dragon for an one that is older and bigger and adjust by size as necessary.

[Jergmo]

Make them younger or just use the RAW stats for younger dragon for an one that is older and bigger and adjust by size as necessary.

So, say...get rid of the last few stages that are of the largest size category the dragon can attain, and spread their lifespan over what remains?

Edit: Bah, that wouldn't work for all of them. Red dragons only have one stage where they're Colossal, and the CR would still be too high.

[vampire2948]

Use weaker types of dragons?

DnD Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) has a few homebrewed and lower CR by growth stage dragons. You could include those as various encounters. And make True Dragons very, very rare in your world.

EDIT - In the Epic Level Handbook, under the section about Advanced Dragons, it classifies the regular types of dragon as lesser, ordinary, greater and epic. Known such because of the maximum size they reach, and the size they start off at.

Lesser - White, Black, Brass and Copper (Tiny in Wyrmling Stage)
Ordinary - Green, Blue and Bronze (Small in Wyrmling Stage and never reaches Colossal)
Greater - Silver, Red and Gold (Small to Large in Wyrmling stage and reaches Colossal)
Epic - Force and Prismatic (Detailed in the epic level handbook. You won't want your low-magic PCs fighting these, I imagine.) (They range from Huge in Wyrmling Stage to C+ in Great Wyrm stage)

You could only use the lesser variety against them? Since they are alway the smallest and weakest for their age.

[Overlord Nicy]

Keep them the same?
Then dragons might really be able to strike some fear.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

So, say...get rid of the last few stages that are of the largest size category the dragon can attain, and spread their lifespan over what remains?

Edit: Bah, that wouldn't work for all of them. Red dragons only have one stage where they're Colossal, and the CR would still be too high.

Too complex. Donnt worry about the 8 ages of dragons. You have nerfed the pcs. Now you need to nerf the dragons. Wyrmling dragons are not encountered until say +2 ecl. And all othe dragons get a bump up as well. Your pcs may never meet a wyrm as stated. So what?

[Shinizak]

There is another way to go about it. Dragons, while powerful, don't want to risk the chance of running into the one guy who happens to be strong/lucky enough to kill him. instead of fighting to the death the dragon proposes a challenge based on the party's skills, and offers to (insert action here) if the heroes win. If the rogue is good at move silently or hiding, he suggests that they fight wraiths silently in the rafters of the opera hall during a preformance. Or if the mage can teleport the dragon might have them battle blink dogs in a maze like sewer. Or maybe the paladin has a Griffin for a mount and flat wishes to do battle in the sky.

Now, because of this, maybe it's not that there aren't many in the world, maybe too many just lost these all important competitions. Or maybe a leader of a major of dragon house lost one and now all who are apart of it must abide by "X" laws.

It adds a new element interesting angle to the battle, makes for better story, and could even be a task to go above a certain level. (all who made it to level 12 bested a dragon at it's own game)

[Jergmo]

-snip-

But wouldn't the dragon just challenge them to competitions that it knows it could win?

[Jergmo]

Keep them the same?
Then dragons might really be able to strike some fear.

I might, if it's reasonable that a level 17, maybe a couple of level 12's, and a moderate amount of level 5-7's could somehow bring down a CR 26 Red Great Wyrm. I want the dragon to be a horrifying creature of legend, but I don't want it to be a god among insects. :smallfrown:

[Shinizak]

But wouldn't the dragon just challenge them to competitions that it knows it could win?

Why do you think there are more evil dragons then good ones? :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

I might, if it's reasonable that a level 17, maybe a couple of level 12's, and a moderate amount of level 5-7's could somehow bring down a CR 26 Red Great Wyrm.

It's a Great Wyrm. It's smarter than most characters, and it's got a list of special abilities and spells longer than my arm. They're one of the most under-CR'd creatures in 3.5 when played with even a mote of intelligence.

[tiercel]

Well... if PCs just level more slowly, that doesn't mean they are any less powerful at their given level than standard PCs.

What do you mean by low-magic, precisely? Lower than usual PC wealth/magic items, compared to canonical Wealth By Level? (And if so, how are spellcasting classes changed? if they still work the same, you're really nerfing nonspellcasters preferentially -- and/or all your spellcasters will take crafting feats.)

Or do you just mean there aren't that many high level people around, but those few people (including, presumably, eventually the PCs) who do reach high level have roughly Wealth-by-Level resources?

If the latter, you don't need to tone down any given individual dragon much at all, though presumably there should be fewer of them in the world if there are fewer high-level NPCs. (That, or the dragons should be running everything.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm going to be running a low-magic campaign in which folks level slower and high level folks are very rare; there might be a handful of level 17's or something in the world, but I'm not sure if there would really be any higher. Plus, we're using variant rules where half of their natural armor bonus equals straight damage reduction, so that just makes them tougher.

The question is: do dragons need to be brought down to scale a bit, and if so, what things can be done to make it so, apart from making dragons rarer? :smallconfused:

Make them more of what they probably already are: Epic (not nesisarily 21+ CR, but definitly legendary) monsters. There should be lots of nondragons, and dragons could be "gods". A dragon would make a great campaign BbEG, but probably only one or two families should be present in the campaign, at most. Finally, let dragons be worth "normal" XP, not the reduced XP.

[Jergmo]

Well... if PCs just level more slowly, that doesn't mean they are any less powerful at their given level than standard PCs.

What do you mean by low-magic, precisely? Lower than usual PC wealth/magic items, compared to canonical Wealth By Level? (And if so, how are spellcasting classes changed? if they still work the same, you're really nerfing nonspellcasters preferentially -- and/or all your spellcasters will take crafting feats.)

Or do you just mean there aren't that many high level people around, but those few people (including, presumably, eventually the PCs) who do reach high level have roughly Wealth-by-Level resources?

If the latter, you don't need to tone down any given individual dragon much at all, though presumably there should be fewer of them in the world if there are fewer high-level NPCs. (That, or the dragons should be running everything.)

The PC's are leveling slower, and there are few high level folks. A level 5 person (beyond level 5, really, you're capable of beyond-human ability feats if you specialize in something) is considered very skilled, and spellcasters aren't common. Wealth is determined by the Arms and Equipment Guide's take on Low-magic (which is roughly 75% of normal wealth), and considering they gain XP slower, crafting magic items is a pain.

[tiercel]

The PC's are leveling slower, and there are few high level folks. A level 5 person (beyond level 5, really, you're capable of beyond-human ability feats if you specialize in something) is considered very skilled, and spellcasters aren't common. Wealth is determined by the Arms and Equipment Guide's take on Low-magic (which is roughly 75% of normal wealth), and considering they gain XP slower, crafting magic items is a pain.

From the sounds of things, I'd treat the effective party level as roughly 1 below its actual level, as a rough guideline to any EL preparation.

Of course, lower wealth tends to nerf nonspellcasters more than spellcasters (more of a sorcerer's power comes from his spellcasting than his toys, whereas a fighter's gear makes much more difference to his power level), but if you have a good group dynamic that will balance out a bit as spellcasters will use more of their spells as buffs to make up for items "standard" PC parties might expect to be more common.

If high level NPCs are uncommon, then lower the dragon population density accordingly (or make dragons a more dominant force in your gameworld). As with any other encounter, figure on choosing a slightly lower CR critter than you would for a standard game (maybe with an extra factor for the all-dragons-have-DR boost).

Still, if you're talking about this party getting to, say, 7th level, and you would normally throw a (say) CR 9 dragon at them, just consider one that is listed at CR 7-8 instead.

[Babale]

Low magic world? Make Wild dragons.

Buff their HP, AC, and breath weapon, but make them DUMB. No Magic, no spell like abilities-Dragons are just flying, fire-breathing dinosaurs.

[Mando Knight]

Use Wyverns with a breath attack instead, perhaps.

[RTGoodman]

Use Wyverns with a breath attack instead, perhaps.

Or those Xorvintal dragons from... MM5? Something like that. They trade out spellcasting for other abilities.

Alternatively, just homebrew up a traditional dragon (green scales, wings, fire breath, loves treasure, you know the drill) that's about CR 15 (they're rare and powerful, but heroes can kill them) and maybe one that's CR 18-20 (the greatest dragon, a match for the greatest heroes in the land).