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Ahab
2009-08-06, 08:27 PM
Recently I had an idea to introduce D&D versions of our classic DC superheroes/villains into my campaign. Now, when creating Lex Luthor's character, I have encountered a problem determining his mental abilities.

Does anyone have suggestions for his intelligence, wisdom and charisma scores? Naturally I would assume intelligence to be somewhere astronomical. But to what extent? If intelligence is roughly equivalent to IQ/10, what would be a reasonable maximum?

His wisdom score is probably pretty high as well... being able to designate a point in space by seeing the formation of stars for about ten seconds.

And I'm totally clueless as to how his charisma would be calculated.

Civil War Man
2009-08-06, 08:31 PM
I don't go by the Int=IQ/10, but I figure Luthor would be at least Int 20, maybe a little higher.


And I'm totally clueless as to how his charisma would be calculated.

Considering that he manages to be elected President at one point in the comics, he probably did not use Charisma as his dump stat.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 08:32 PM
Int 20 - Lex Luthor is one of the smartest men in the world and smarter than many extradimensional beings, but he's still not quite in the league of a superbeing like Darkseid.

Wis 14 - This is Lex Luthor's weakest trait, especially with his occasional slip to insanity, but he's by no means a slouch here. His oversights and failures are often due to being unable to look past his own ego - such as when he refused to believe Clark Kent was Superman, because why the hell would the only person who could consistently stymie him want to be a reporter?!.

Cha 18 - Lex Luthor is not as charismatic as he is smart, simply because there are so many others who focus on that sort of thing; but he's definitely oozing with charm, considering he managed to get elected as President, get ousted as planning to frame Superman and Batman after putting bounties on them, then manage to resurface a year later and go "none of that was me, it was actually my evil clone!" successfully.

blueblade
2009-08-06, 08:33 PM
Actually, his wisdom score is likely the worst of the three, possibly even no better than a 12-14. If it was, he would understand the futility of his actions against Superman, and the fact that was holding him back from acheiving independent greatness. I'd say:

Int: 20 (plus increases over time)
Wis: 12
Cha: 20 (he was the president after all)

If he is an NPC, it is probably as a high level aristocrat, dumping points into Int as he goes.

Ahab
2009-08-06, 08:33 PM
One thing that threw me off was the huge Intelligence of creatures like Gold Dragons. Would 35 INT not be godlike?

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 08:36 PM
One thing that threw me off was the huge Intelligence of creatures like Gold Dragons. Would 35 INT not be godlike?

The system breaks down with anything at epic levels or that would be epic were it a PC. So...

Ahab
2009-08-06, 08:45 PM
Being able to remember an entire genetic code (All-Star Superman) suggested an epic number to me. So his memory would be under intelligence and not wisdom then?

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 08:48 PM
Memory is typically under wisdom, yes. However, consider: attacks are typically under strength, and there's many ways to increase damage without having a high strength.

I would suggest Luthor has the Autohypnosis skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm) or a feat for photographic memory.

theMycon
2009-08-06, 08:58 PM
I'm surprised he's getting a super-10 Wisdom here. I realize a lot of people miss obvious things, but is he really even average here? How long did it take him to realize Supes is Kent? How many times has he nearly gotten himself killed because he was too hell-bent on "winning"? How often does he completely forget his actual goal, or the reasons behind it, in favor of just continuing to do what he's doing?

I'd really call his Wis a 7 or so; having above-average wisdom would imply you don't spend billions of dollars on a plan that has nearly no chance of working, to kill someone who doesn't actually impede you so long as your plans don't involve trying to kill him. Especially when you've got everything you already want legitimately, and could cure cancer as an after-thought. With all the boons that'd come with it.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 09:05 PM
The thing is that Wisdom's relation to sanity, much like an insane person's relation to the world, is tangential. And when he's thinking clearly, he does have a great deal of common sense.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-06, 09:23 PM
Int 20 - Lex Luthor is one of the smartest men in the world and smarter than many extradimensional beings, but he's still not quite in the league of a superbeing like Darkseid.

Wis 14 - This is Lex Luthor's weakest trait, especially with his occasional slip to insanity, but he's by no means a slouch here. His oversights and failures are often due to being unable to look past his own ego - such as when he refused to believe Clark Kent was Superman, because why the hell would the only person who could consistently stymie him want to be a reporter?!.

Cha 18 - Lex Luthor is not as charismatic as he is smart, simply because there are so many others who focus on that sort of thing; but he's definitely oozing with charm, considering he managed to get elected as President, get ousted as planning to frame Superman and Batman after putting bounties on them, then manage to resurface a year later and go "none of that was me, it was actually my evil clone!" successfully.

I question this, as a DC 12 Spot check can see that Clark Kent has a lot in common with Superman in terms of frame and face. Someone with an Int that high can easily deduce the relation between the two by taking 10.


Unless Lex and everyone else in the DCU was obfuscating that knowledge and humoring Superman, which would explain why everything seems to target Lois Lane...

Arakune
2009-08-06, 09:24 PM
I'm surprised he's getting a super-10 Wisdom here. I realize a lot of people miss obvious things, but is he really even average here? How long did it take him to realize Supes is Kent?

In a world where (unti massive ret-con) glasses and a diferent hair style make you praticaly a diferent person, having average Wis is much more than he will ever need.

Edit: ninja!

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 09:27 PM
I question this, as a DC 12 Spot check can see that Clark Kent has a lot in common with Superman in terms of frame and face. Someone with an Int that high can easily deduce the relation between the two by taking 10.


Unless Lex and everyone else in the DCU was obfuscating that knowledge and humoring Superman, which would explain why everything seems to target Lois Lane...

Eh.


Superman's acknowledged as a master of disguise; this is post-Crisis by the way. He slouches as Kent and changes his voice and facial motions.
Superman is in the world 24/7, even when Clark Kent is busy. Superman Robots and Shapeshifters. Most people don't know about the former. Most people don't even think Superman has a secret identity at this point. They think he's all Super, all the time.
Clark's gotten his picture taken with Supes before.
Clark's been injured before peoples' eyes before.
Few people even get a good look at Superman, and he constantly vibrates himself at a low level to make it fuzzier. (This is silly, but it is canon.)
Just because someone looks like someone else doesn't mean that they are someone else. What do we call Elvis sightings?


Batman's always the one I can't figure out how no one's figured out yet. You follow him with a damn tracker or government satellite and 'dur, he disappears into this cave every time! Let's take a look!'

Not to mention the paper trail. Or the mysterious damage he's constantly taking as a playboy CEO. Or when he has time to sleep.

Random832
2009-08-06, 09:30 PM
Now, hold on. Realizing Clark Kent *looks like* Superman is easy (though of course how easy may differ between continuities and writers). Realizing he *is* Superman requires some fairly detailed times-and-places number-crunching for which only people relatively close to him as Kent would have the raw information to start with.

His refusal to believe it once discovered due to his ego is something I'd be more likely to put down to something like a flaw rather than an across-the-board low score.

JeminiZero
2009-08-06, 09:49 PM
Batman's always the one I can't figure out how no one's figured out yet. You follow him with a damn tracker or government satellite and 'dur, he disappears into this cave every time! Let's take a look!'


I have my theories on the matter (by which I mean I have no idea and made some crazy stuff up). It goes something like this:

Soldier: Sir, he's done it again. He just upped and vanished from satellite tracking.
General: Damnit! How does the goddamn Batman keep doing that!?
Soldier: I have no idea sir. The fact that we can perfectly trace Cloaked Enemy movements suggests that the satellites are working perfectly. It must be something his vehicles are using.
General: *sigh* Yes, I know. But how does he do it? How does he constantly keep one step ahead of these cutting edge satellites built by Wayne Corp?

Haven
2009-08-06, 09:50 PM
Most people don't even think Superman has a secret identity at this point. They think he's all Super, all the time.

Another thing that makes this make sense: He doesn't wear a mas.

Anyway, despite this, I still think I'd give Luthor a 10 or lower Wisdom. For while he's capable of making drawn-out, complicated plans, and while's he's a supergenius, he's still ultimately a thug or an immature child whining that someone else is playing in his sandbox and throwing tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 09:55 PM
Another thing that makes this make sense: He doesn't wear a mas.

Anyway, despite this, I still think I'd give Luthor a 10 or lower Wisdom. For while he's capable of making drawn-out, complicated plans, and while's he's a supergenius, he's still ultimately a thug or an immature child whining that someone else is playing in his sandbox and throwing tantrums when he doesn't get what he wants.

I think it's a fair assessment, really. The mental stat system is even more vague than the physical stats.


I have my theories on the matter (by which I mean I have no idea and made some crazy stuff up). It goes something like this:

Soldier: Sir, he's done it again. He just upped and vanished from satellite tracking.
General: Damnit! How does the goddamn Batman keep doing that!?
Soldier: I have no idea sir. The fact that we can perfectly trace Cloaked Enemy movements suggests that the satellites are working perfectly. It must be something his vehicles are using.
General: *sigh* Yes, I know. But how does he do it? How does he constantly keep one step ahead of these cutting edge satellites built by Wayne Corp?

At first I thought this was brilliant - it's a really good answer.

But then you reminded me that that's what makes it even worse, because apparently it's famous knowledge that Batman has close ties to Bruce Wayne. Batman implies this in one of the early Batman/Superman arcs. So everyone knows that Bruce Wayne is responsible or closely linked to Batman's tons o' gadgets... and they don't look closely at Bruce Wayne to figure out who Batsy is?

That's only slightly better than Tony Stark. "Iron Man's my bodyguard. WHOOPS I got caught... so uh, yeah, that was really me. BUT THIS TIME IRON MAN IS MY BODYGUARD. Whoops, I got caught again... but this time, I really have hired someone else to be Iron Man!"

- A year later -
Tony Stark: Hey guys, that was secretly me.
American Public: WTF NO WAI
Tony Stark: WAY

amanamana
2009-08-06, 10:01 PM
Using the fact that he couldn't realize Superman's identity as a proof of low wisdom just doesn't make sense. It's like a house rule on regular superhero comics. People can't notice those things. Or else your are suggesting that the hole damn world has a wisdom under average. As this doesn't make sense on the meaning of average, that would just mean that you would need a house rule.
Using the insanity card, on the other hand, makes more sense. Although I would suggest that his actions and unsuccessful plans are more due to the fact that, as a Golden Age supervillain, he is Stupid Evil, even if a genius. That part of him could never be totally changed, or else he would kill Superman. The thing is, as one of the main superheroes of the DC universe, Superman has a huge Plot Armor.

Mando Knight
2009-08-06, 10:03 PM
Batman's always the one I can't figure out how no one's figured out yet. You follow him with a damn tracker or government satellite and 'dur, he disappears into this cave every time! Let's take a look!'He's got an extensive cave network that lets him pop the Bat-vehicle-of-choice out wherever he wants, so he doesn't always enter/leave the Cave from a waterfall near Wayne Manor...

Not to mention the paper trail.He's secretly cleaned up Wayne Enterprises after making a hostile self-takeover, then hid the Batman development costs in other projects and takes the details of the most advanced systems and dials them back a bit for sale, while keeping the full version for himself.
Or the mysterious damage he's constantly taking as a playboy CEO.It's a bunch of "accidents" like a horseback riding or fencing mishap.
Or when he has time to sleep.Do you really expect a Rich Idiot with no day job to get up at 7 in the morning? He sleeps past noon half the time. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 10:05 PM
I'm pretty sure he's like one of those '7 in the morning sharp' CEOs.

And it's the part about Batman's association with Bruce Wayne being publicly known that really makes it a facepalm for me.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-06, 10:06 PM
I'm pretty sure he's like one of those '7 in the morning sharp' CEOs.

And it's the part about Batman's association with Bruce Wayne being publicly known that really makes it a facepalm for me.

TDK makes it clear that at least some incarnations of Bruce Wayne sleep on the job.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 10:07 PM
TDK makes it clear that at least some incarnations of Bruce Wayne sleep on the job.

We're discussing the comics here, not the alternate versions of Batman (BB, TDK), Superman (DCAU), and Iron Man (Eponymous Movie) that are far better than 90% of what inspired them.

JeminiZero
2009-08-06, 10:11 PM
But then you reminded me that that's what makes it even worse, because apparently it's famous knowledge that Batman has close ties to Bruce Wayne. Batman implies this in one of the early Batman/Superman arcs. So everyone knows that Bruce Wayne is responsible or closely linked to Batman's tons o' gadgets... and they don't look closely at Bruce Wayne to figure out who Batsy is?


Like I said, I made crazy stuff up. I'm not that familiar with all Batman canon. XD



He's secretly cleaned up Wayne Enterprises after making a hostile self-takeover, then hid the Batman development costs in other projects and takes the details of the most advanced systems and dials them back a bit for sale, while keeping the full version for himself.


I rather like the probable explanation that Lucius Fox gives in The Dark Knight. Something like: "Let me get this straight, you think that your employer, one of the richest most powerful men in Gotham, is secretly a masked vigilante who spends his nights beating dangerous criminals to a bloody pulp. And your plan is to blackmail him?"

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-06, 10:11 PM
We're discussing the comics here, not the alternate versions of Batman (BB, TDK), Superman (DCAU), and Iron Man (Eponymous Movie) that are far better than 90% of what inspired them.

Careful Astral, Comicbook fans are highly flammable... one little spark can start the Apocalypse.

AstralFire
2009-08-06, 10:16 PM
Like I said, I made crazy stuff up. I'm not that familiar with all Batman canon. XD

Ah, it's not your fault. That was actually really good. Batman just doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the rest of the DC Universe when you consider his prominence; his existence flickers from 'a myth' to 'he's being televised next to Superman and the Justice League' depending on the story. (Note: Tim Drake became Robin because he figured out Batman and Robin's identities from a trademarked acrobatic move of the Flying Graysons. A 15 year old. Casually watching TV.) This is part of the reason for the statement that 'Batman is every alignment' - he really highlights something about comics - I find it hard to make a blanket like or dislike statement about any major character because so many different writers and handle and reinterpret said character that you're really discussing a broad general concept moreso than a single persona. And the people who try to make it all make sense have some really good ideas, then they run into 60 years worth of obscure canon that messes with it.


Careful Astral, Comicbook fans are highly flammable... one little spark can start the Apocalypse.

Having spent a lot of time with and considering myself something of a comics fan... I don't think you can call yourself one if you don't hate and criticize the majority of the stuff associated with the major characters. It's worse than Star Wars in some ways (though not so much in others, since the decentralization makes everything easily reversible.)

Grynning
2009-08-06, 10:26 PM
The problem with any debate on comic characters is that they have been written by so many different people that the characterization one person is familiar with can wildly contradict what someone else has seen in a different source.

This applies to the Bruce Wayne thing, where he has been written as both a freewheeling, irresponsible playboy (like in the recent films) and as a shrewd exec who uses Batman-like tactics in the business world.

Same with Lex. If you're familiar with the Justice League Animated 'verse, he comes off as much crazier and reckless than he does in many of the comics, which might merit a low Wisdom. My favorite depiction of him is the total opposite, from Superman Red Sun, where his mind is the sharpest weapon on the planet, and he's able to defeat Supes with a single sentence written on a scrap of paper, and even outwit Brainiac, which would require some amazing Insight/Sense Motive checks. Sure he's still obsessed with beating the Kryptonian, but he's definitely NOT a low-wis character.

In order to continue the exercise, I suggest the OP clarify which depiction of Lex he's basing the character on. Then it's much easier to get a handle on the appropriate stats.

Edit/PS: By the way, Lex's inability to discover Superman's identity should NOT be a basis for his Wisdom score. For years and years NO ONE in the DCU could figure out who he was, which is why they ret-conned in all the silly explanations for the disguise being so effective. Basically, the reason Lex couldn't tell Clark was Supes wasn't a "low wisdom score," it was Supes' special brand of plot armor.

Edit again - quasi-ninja'ed by Astral, and +1 to the first paragraph of the above post. 'Swhat I get for takin a smoke break mid post.

theMycon
2009-08-06, 10:34 PM
Using the fact that he couldn't realize Superman's identity as a proof of low wisdom just doesn't make sense.Yes, but it's also a very small part of the evidence. His devoting his life and endless resources to deal with a vendetta, when he admits he has plenty he'd rather be doing, knows ignoring it won't actually hold him back from anything BUT attempts to eliminate the vendetta*, and that it won't further his life in any way to accomplish...

That's pretty cataclismically low wisdom, to me. Explaining it as "just as hobby" is about on par with saying "I'm going to bathe in a boiling vat of Crystal Meth every morning, with my pet pirhanas" is "just a hobby".


*unless his criminal activities, which produce negligible income & power compared to his legitimate ones, have a real purpose other than pissing off superman.

Grynning
2009-08-06, 10:42 PM
Yes, but it's also a very small part of the evidence. His devoting his life and endless resources to deal with a vendetta, when he admits he has plenty he'd rather be doing, knows ignoring it won't actually hold him back from anything BUT attempts to eliminate the vendetta*, and that it won't further his life in any way to accomplish...

That's pretty cataclismically low wisdom, to me. Explaining it as "just as hobby" is about on par with saying "I'm going to bathe in a boiling vat of Crystal Meth every morning, with my pet pirhanas" is "just a hobby".


*unless his criminal activities, which produce negligible income & power compared to his legitimate ones, have a real purpose other than pissing off superman.

I have to disagree on this. Obsessions, vendettas, quirks, those are just character and personality traits, and have nothing to do with ability scores. Ability scores dictate your saves/defenses, depending on edition, and how good you are at certain things. They are purely mechanical, an abstraction of natural talents and abilities. If I want to have a high-wis character who's crazy as a loon, I can. In fact...Batman. He's got an amazing Wisdom score; he's observant, and his willpower is legendary. But the guy is clinically insane. He dresses up like a Bat and fights super-villains to try and avenge the death of his parents at the hands of a mugger. Lex (in many of my preferred depictions) is the same way. Cunning, observant, and insightful. High Wisdom. Also nuts.

theMycon
2009-08-06, 11:10 PM
They are comparable; in that they're both obsessed with their goal. However, there are two problems in comparing the cases:

1: Batman is simply obsessed with an abstract concept he believes in which will further his goals (justice); the execution of which has been marginally successful. He won't finish his work, but he is making some progress.
Lex Luthor is obsessed with a single, quantifiable task that he has failed at time and time again. It also doesn't help him or further his other life goals noticably in the least even if he suceeds.

2: Batman is consistently portrayed as insightful. Lex is... occasionally shown this way. But he more often seems like someone who can never see the forest for the trees, but can still find his way through the woods 90% of the time because he's got enough confidence in his brain* to blindly continue with the map he sketched out beforehand, even when he's got no clue where he is.


And with the argument in general:
Being out-of-the norm mentally doesn't reflect mental ability? I respectfully disagree. Having a self-destructive quirk implies a lack of will or reason, to me. I refer again to the "bathing with pirhannas" above; it's a quirky hobby, but it's gonna rot your brain and give you meth-face even if nothing goes wrong.

*or pigheadedness. Which accidentally brings up a good point- it looks like willpower, but I doubt anyone would think simply being stubborn is wise.

BobVosh
2009-08-06, 11:50 PM
In fact...Batman. He's got an amazing Wisdom score; he's observant, and his willpower is legendary. But the guy is clinically insane. He dresses up like a Bat and fights super-villains to try and avenge the death of his parents at the hands of a mugger.

Would you say he is bat-**** crazy? >.>

High charisma could explain why Lex continues his vendetta against the supa. His ego is too large to think he can't overcome a guy who dresses in tights and pretends to do things with "super-friction"

I'm not a huge canon buff, but I would peg Lex with 22 int, 14 wisdom, 18 charisma, and max ranks in autohypnosis. Probably as a factotum if it is a PC class, and expert if it is NPC classes. Sprinkle ranks into knowledge skills as is appropriate for him (all I know is he is a CEO/Engineer/Scientist depending on who is writing him. I don't even know what it is he engineers/sciences up)

Xenogears
2009-08-07, 12:06 AM
Lex Luthor is obsessed with a single, quantifiable task that he has failed at time and time again. It also doesn't help him or further his other life goals noticably in the least even if he suceeds.

As always with comics depends on what your reading at the time.Take ummm Lex Luthor:Man of Steel I think. In that Lex's reason for trying to kill superman is that having superman around makes it impossible for mankind to achieve real glory. So for the sake of humanity Lex is trying to get rid of him.

So although a little crazy. From his point of view it is not just a waste of time. There is in fact nothing in the world more important to do.

BobVosh
2009-08-07, 12:17 AM
As always with comics depends on what your reading at the time.Take ummm Lex Luthor:Man of Steel I think. In that Lex's reason for trying to kill superman is that having superman around makes it impossible for mankind to achieve real glory. So for the sake of humanity Lex is trying to get rid of him.

So although a little crazy. From his point of view it is not just a waste of time. There is in fact nothing in the world more important to do.

I've heard that one before, and I think it is my favorite justification for him.

elliott20
2009-08-07, 01:30 AM
I have no real insight that has not been offered before but i would just like ot say I love this board...

anyway, seeing as I'm most comfortable and most familiar with primarily two versions of Lex, the DCAU and the 52 version of him, I'd peg him with a 22 int, 12 wis, and 20 cha as well.

I mean, let's take a look at it from the player's viewpoint. A PC can easily have a 20 wis, but still be a total nut. If we must be able to reconcile THAT, surely we can do the same for NPCs, right?

To me, while a mental condition SHOULD have an effect on your wisdom score, I believe we might be looking at this the wrong way. We should be considering what Lex's score would be if he was NOT insane. Considering his mental faculties, it is entirely possible that if Lex was a healthy minded individual, he could be sitting on a Wis of 20 as well. The fact that he has a 12 could already be a manifestation of his psychosis.

Xenogears
2009-08-07, 02:27 AM
I've heard that one before, and I think it is my favorite justification for him.

The book it came from was really good too. The only bad part of the book is that it is one of two comics I know of where superman says (and in one case demonstrates) that he can see peoples souls.....

As to the topic. Lemme think. I'd put his Int at more like the 25-30 range, his cha at the 20-25 range, and his wis at the 15-20 range. As always it depends on what version of him you are reading but using some of my more favorite moments have him: Creating cures to incurable diseases instantly (then turning them into a treatment plan to make more money), convincing a ton of major villains some with giant ego's to follow his command, and generaly just been downright ungodl when it comes to mental facultires. Physical stats would all be at 8-12 (with kryptonite induced cancer lowering them by a couple more points.

Random832
2009-08-07, 06:50 AM
anyway, seeing as I'm most comfortable and most familiar with primarily two versions of Lex, the DCAU and the 52 version of him, I'd peg him with a 22 int, 12 wis, and 20 cha as well.

I don't think I can see him as an epic-level character, which is what's needed to have a score of 20 and one of 22 without magic items. Why isn't 20 Int/18 Cha (possible at eighth level with good rolls) enough?

The Rose Dragon
2009-08-07, 07:19 AM
I would put Lex Luthor at Intelligence 26, at the least. He has super-human intelligence (though not super-intelligence, which implies a superpower), and Mutants & Masterminds puts 25 as "the best in the world".

((By the way, why try to build superheroes in D&D and not M&M? The latter makes much more sense and is a better system than the former.))

AstralFire
2009-08-07, 07:47 AM
I don't believe he's trying to build superheroes so much as trying to build homages to them in an existing campaign, and it would be awkward to shift system in mid-campaign.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-07, 07:56 AM
The thing is that Wisdom's relation to sanity, much like an insane person's relation to the world, is tangential. And when he's thinking clearly, he does have a great deal of common sense.

Lex Luthor is a normal human being, with no special powers. He has chosen as his archnemesis SUPERMAN. You know, they guy who flies, moves mountains, shoots lasers out of his eyes, spends time in the sun, & finds a new superpower every couple of weeks? That guy.

Lex is many things, but thinking clearly he is not. Not ever.

Telonius
2009-08-07, 08:16 AM
Lex Luthor is a normal human being, with no special powers. He has chosen as his archnemesis SUPERMAN. You know, they guy who flies, moves mountains, shoots lasers out of his eyes, spends time in the sun, & finds a new superpower every couple of weeks? That guy.

Lex is many things, but thinking clearly he is not. Not ever.

Clear-thinking enough to choose an enemy that won't kill him.

Lex does have an unacknowledged super power, though: enough charisma to stop the Legion of Doom from killing each other long enough to launch plots against the good guys.

Human Paragon 3
2009-08-07, 10:42 AM
I think Lex should have an Int of at least 30. He is MUCH smarter than the smartest real human ever to have lived, creating impossible inventions and in JLU being able to understand the power of the Anti-Life Equation, something only a 12th level intellect, like Braniac, was supposed to be able to do.

Person_Man
2009-08-07, 11:27 AM
I think Lex is around 22 Int, 16 Wis, 20 Cha, with the Contractual Genre Blindness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContractualGenreBlindness) Flaw. Wisdom is "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition." Although his common sense is a bit lacking at times, he has exceptional willpower, perception, and intuition. He's just required by many writers to do stupid villain like things because he's the villain. And that's fine. I played characters with 24 Cha Hexblade who was attractive and a natural communicator, who was constantly insulting people (and doing a really good job of it) and making new enemies, because he was a jerk. I played a character with 20 Int Wizard who often reached absurd conclusions even though he had a genious level intellect and a photographic memory, because he was a conspiracy nut. Attributes do not equal personality.

hamishspence
2009-08-07, 11:46 AM
And what class should he be :smallamused:

I'm guessing he'd be a quite high level character to account for the high Int- Middle Aged + Starting Int 18, + eight or more levels = Int 22 (may be higher if he's high enough level).

chiasaur11
2009-08-07, 01:17 PM
I would put Lex Luthor at Intelligence 26, at the least. He has super-human intelligence (though not super-intelligence, which implies a superpower), and Mutants & Masterminds puts 25 as "the best in the world".

((By the way, why try to build superheroes in D&D and not M&M? The latter makes much more sense and is a better system than the former.))

Better than the world's best?

If we were talking Braniac (1-5, inclusive) maybe.

But Luthor, though very smart, still falls within typical comic book limits for genius.

I mean, he's no faster at inventing whole new paradigms of reality than Reed "The Accursed" Richards over in 616, and not much more likely to make a mass production version. If there are multiple guys over 25 int (excluding cosmics, for the moment.) then "Best in the world" means nothing.

Ninetail
2009-08-07, 10:17 PM
Recently I had an idea to introduce D&D versions of our classic DC superheroes/villains into my campaign. Now, when creating Lex Luthor's character, I have encountered a problem determining his mental abilities.

Does anyone have suggestions for his intelligence, wisdom and charisma scores? Naturally I would assume intelligence to be somewhere astronomical. But to what extent? If intelligence is roughly equivalent to IQ/10, what would be a reasonable maximum?

His wisdom score is probably pretty high as well... being able to designate a point in space by seeing the formation of stars for about ten seconds.

And I'm totally clueless as to how his charisma would be calculated.

Depends on the version of him you're using. Early mad-scientist Lex is different from power-armor Lex, who is different from richest-man-in-the-world Lex, who is different from animated-series Lex, who is different from movie Lex, even though they're all supposed to be the same character.

What's consistent is that his intelligence is stratospheric. The exact point will depend on the edition you're using, but in 4e terms I'd place him at least at a 24. (In 3e, more like a 28 or 30.) That's what I'd consider on-par with, say, Einstein. Luthor is a genius on that level, and in multiple areas of science (and, depending on the version, perhaps politics and business as well). There are a few beings out there who are smarter, but not many, if any, of them are human.

Wisdom could be all over the board. He's not the most stable of individuals, which argues for a relatively low score. He's egotistical and not a good judge of himself, which likewise trends low. On the other hand, he's very perceptive, and he's got a lot of willpower. His intuition is also generally pretty good. In 3.5, this argues for relatively high Wisdom or strong bonuses. In 4e, though, he can get the willpower from Charisma. I'd place him at a 12 or so, and give him Iron Will and perhaps his own special bonus. His Will save should be incredible.

Charisma... well, the earlier versions of Lex would be on the low-to-average side. But recently he's been played up as a powerful leader and adept at political maneuver. In 4e, this also plays into his willpower. Going with the charming version of Luthor, I'd give him a 22 or so. (Or possibly an 18 or 20, but with Skill Focus in Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.)