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imp_fireball
2009-08-07, 10:59 AM
So let's say you throw an object, targeting a specific space. For me, that's easy - I'd rule it as making a touch attack against AC 5. If line of effect is being blocked, then it becomes AC 9, because you are throwing the object over cover.

But what if you intend to throw the object over something that has total cover? Total cover, as a simple rule, is anything that blocks your line of sight to that area. Say you wish to throw to that area. Well, the touch attack would be AC 9 (assuming it's physically possible to throw the object to that area, ie. over a tall wall to land where you desire), but the area is a place that you can't immediately see and so it has total concealment (miss chance).

What if your touch attack misses? Where should the object land?

This is exactly what it says in the thread title - a rules debate.

Moriato
2009-08-07, 11:04 AM
DMG page 145 "Renaissance Explosive Weapons"

Tells you what to do when a genadelike weapon misses.

Edit: also there's a diagram on 158 in the PHB

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-07, 11:08 AM
Urgh. Um, let me think a minute...

Make him make two ranged touch attacks - one AC 5 on the square five feet forwards and up, and another on the square five feet back and up (AC 9) from the target square, representing his need to throw it in an arc over the obstruction. If it misses, flip a coin - heads it goes too far, tails it falls short. If it's a natural 1, then he hoists the object over his head and falls over backwards in a comical manner instead of throwing it.

If that seems too complicated, then roll against AC 9 and add a 50% miss chance. If it misses, then use the splash weapon miss rules.

Clementx
2009-08-07, 11:40 AM
If that seems too complicated, then roll against AC 9 and add a 50% miss chance. If it misses, then use the splash weapon miss rules.
This, except you should use AC13, reflecting improved cover in addition to the 50% miss for indirect fire. You are very likely to miss exactly where you want it to go, but the missed throw rules will get it reasonably close.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-07, 02:17 PM
Oh, and don't forget the -4 penalty for not being proficient with whatever item is being thrown, unless the player in question does have proficiency with it. Not knowing what the object in question is, I've been assuming that it's something wacky, like a chamber pot.

Darrin
2009-08-07, 02:35 PM
Oh, and don't forget the -4 penalty for not being proficient with whatever item is being thrown, unless the player in question does have proficiency with it. Not knowing what the object in question is, I've been assuming that it's something wacky, like a chamber pot.

There is no non-proficiency penalty for thrown weapons. From the SRD, under Combat > Special Actions > Throw Splash Weapon:

"Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty."

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-07, 02:37 PM
There is no non-proficiency penalty for thrown weapons. From the SRD, under Combat > Special Actions > Throw Splash Weapon:

"Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty."

You do, however, take a penalty for throwing objects that are not weapons. See chamber pot, above.

erikun
2009-08-07, 02:39 PM
There is no non-proficiency penalty for thrown weapons. From the SRD, under Combat > Special Actions > Throw Splash Weapon:

"Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty."
Sweet! So my dwarf-throwing-dwarf can throw himself without penality!

....with Unarmed Strike, apparently. As that makes any part of his body a weapon. :smallwink:

Deepblue706
2009-08-07, 02:43 PM
Sweet! So my dwarf-throwing-dwarf can throw himself without penality!

....with Unarmed Strike, apparently. As that makes any part of his body a weapon. :smallwink:

Oh, combine that with Hurling Charge. Then he can charge the target he threw himself at.

jmbrown
2009-08-07, 02:43 PM
Area attacks only work (or at least should only work as I don't know if a rule specifically states it) on objects large of larger; basically anything that takes up an entire square (I don't count medium objects because a chair doesn't necessarily take up an entire 5x5' square).

I'd imply a cumulative -4 penalty per size category below large for indirect attacks. You can't feasibly expect to hit an aware person with a chamber pot when you're not aiming. You can reasonably hit them with a piano by tossing it in the area rather than tossing it directly at them. Like catapults you'd still get a reflex save for half or none for people with evasion.

Telonius
2009-08-07, 02:46 PM
Sweet! So my dwarf-throwing-dwarf can throw himself without penality!

....with Unarmed Strike, apparently. As that makes any part of his body a weapon. :smallwink:

But that's against Moradin's Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Toss! Clear break of the Dwarven Code. He'll Fall for sure. (With any luck, onto the target).

imp_fireball
2009-08-07, 02:47 PM
DMG page 145 "Renaissance Explosive Weapons"

Tells you what to do when a genadelike weapon misses.

Edit: also there's a diagram on 158 in the PHB

Do you have a link to it? I don't own DMG.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-07, 02:53 PM
Oh, combine that with Hurling Charge. Then he can charge the target he threw himself at.

Now my players are going to want to try this. I hate you so much. :smalltongue:

jeek
2009-08-07, 02:55 PM
Do you have a link to it? I don't own DMG.

This may help. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#throwSplashWeapon)

imp_fireball
2009-08-07, 02:55 PM
Area attacks only work (or at least should only work as I don't know if a rule specifically states it) on objects large of larger; basically anything that takes up an entire square (I don't count medium objects because a chair doesn't necessarily take up an entire 5x5' square).

Yah, I'd rule that throwing into a space is different from throwing the object at a character. It would be much harder to throw the object at a character who has concealment to you (and you'd have to beat the character's AC rather than the AC of the space to hit them). For objects that occupy more than one space, it's a reflex save depending on how high you roll the toss, whereas medium objects can automatically be avoided for free if not targeted at a character (unless multiple objects are thrown simultaneously, in which case it becomes a reflex save to avoid again), unless that character is completely helpless and immobile (and the object can reasonably be expected to hit the character within that space... a smaller object might require a lucky roll).

Such a mechanic also works well for staging 'accidents'.


This may help. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#throwSplashWeapon)

Much appreciated. :)

Telonius
2009-08-07, 02:56 PM
Hold on, though. IUS doesn't make your whole body a weapon - only a level in Monk would.

Which of course leaves the option open of probably the most horrifying possibility in D&D: the dreaded Dwarven Drunken Master.

Random832
2009-08-07, 03:00 PM
That diagram would be (generated from that description with no reference to the books - I don't think the book even actually covers the diagonal case anyhow)

456
3X7
218

If you are "south" of the target,

345
2X6
187

If you are "southwest"

and so forth.

Easy enough to extrapolate a homebrew ruling with a d6 for hexes