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quick_comment
2009-08-07, 02:02 PM
Where exactly do they get their damage from? A bunch of bound soulmelds give you the ability to do 1d6+1d6/invested essentia at will, but thats not much, and less than what a warlock could do.

How do they hurt people and break things?

Deth Muncher
2009-08-07, 02:13 PM
Where exactly do they get their damage from? A bunch of bound soulmelds give you the ability to do 1d6+1d6/invested essentia at will, but thats not much, and less than what a warlock could do.

How do they hurt people and break things?

I know there's a PrC that's for Barbarians/Soulshapers, but I'm not entirely sure how they'd do it on their own.

JeenLeen
2009-08-07, 02:21 PM
I have heard that they can, very early, get +5 to +7 weapons through Incarnate Weapon, or the similiarly named soulmeld. Although I think Totemist can do that as well with some of their Totem chakra binds.

That's not a lot of offense, but it helps against some DR.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-07, 02:28 PM
Totemists tend to get better damage than Incarnates, but Incarnates using UMD/UPD can get a solid damage output easily. Also, Lawful Incarnates who use Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike can dish it out.

The average optimized Incarnate without those feats can get upwards of 120 damage/round with just attacks. Not much. The Dissolving Spittle soulmeld bound to the Throat chakra and combined with Greater Psionic Shot can do about the same as a Warlock without Eldritch Glaive or Hellfire.

Incarnates are able to pull a secondary Tank status, but they aren't that powerful if you focus on damage. Evil Incarnates can do damage, but they need attack boosters. If you can get a couple of wands of Divine Power/Righteous Might, you will be much better off.

Feats are pretty sparse. If you can, try to get one of the party to play a Bard that spams Dragonfire Inspiration to boost damage for everyone. While it will boost the entire party, your attack bonuses will be much higher than the rest of the party (barring casters).

Glimbur
2009-08-07, 03:06 PM
If you combine Lightning Gauntlets bound to your hands with Incarnate Weapon, you can cry because you don't hit anything with your wizard BAB without a lot of effort.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-07, 03:10 PM
If you combine Lightning Gauntlets bound to your hands with Incarnate Weapon, you can cry because you don't hit anything with your wizard BAB without a lot of effort.

Yes you can. Incarnate Weapon can give a +8 bonus to attack rolls. Incarnate Avatar (Lawful) can give a +8 as well. Finally, Incarnum Radiance (Lawful) can give up to a +5. I think a +31 to attack rolls before Str or other sources is pretty good. 2 soulmelds and a class feature. One of those is standard, the other is useful.


And Lightning Gauntlets suck because they take a Standard action to use.

Glimbur
2009-08-07, 03:29 PM
If I'm reading it right, if you're willing to spend a bind you can add your lightning gauntlet damage to your weapon damage 1/round and still full attack.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-07, 03:36 PM
If I'm reading it right, if you're willing to spend a bind you can add your lightning gauntlet damage to your weapon damage 1/round and still full attack.

Only 1/round, so the damage is pitiful. Also, Electricity is one of the most common energy resistances (2 types of Dragon, the entire Tanar'ri horde, some Good aligned outsiders, and a handful of others), so not worth it.

Glimbur
2009-08-07, 04:00 PM
Yes you can. Incarnate Weapon can give a +8 bonus to attack rolls. Incarnate Avatar (Lawful) can give a +8 as well. Finally, Incarnum Radiance (Lawful) can give up to a +5. I think a +31 to attack rolls before Str or other sources is pretty good. 2 soulmelds and a class feature. One of those is standard, the other is useful.


This requires two feats (actually the same feat twice, but it's a really good feat for meldshapers), two magic items ( one on your arms which is a slot I don't like, but the other is a robe in your armor slot which hurts AC), and using a 4/day ability which isn't a big deal.

And it's at level 20. A level 20 fighter has roughly the same attribute requirements. They claim the Incarnate needs Wis, but that's a lie. You can wear Mithral Full Plate just like the fighter, so Dex required is about equal. If you are building for melee you will emphasize Str and Con just like a fighter. So we will discount Str differences.

A Fighter 20 will have a +5 weapon, +20 BAB, +4 to hit and +6 damage from Weapon Supremacy line. That's 29/29/19/14 (Weapon Supremacy on the second attack) versus 31/26. The fighter is ahead on base damage per swing because the +6 from Supremacy and friends is larger than the extra +3 you have from wielding a technically Epic weapon.

quick_comment
2009-08-07, 04:22 PM
The incarnum guide is wrong about undead meldshaper.

A necropolitican cleric/meldshaper/sapphire hirearch with undead meldshaper gets to use wis for spellcasting and all his meldshaping. He can use DMM to persist incarnum apotheosis.

The problem is that he doesnt get many chakras opened, but you can get around that with spells.


Using a feat to make yourself SAD is usually a good use of a feat.

For even more fun, you can do necropolitan Incarnate 2/Cloistered Cleric 3/Sapphire Hierarch 10/Cleric PrC 5

You get wisdom for casting, meldshaping, attack, damage, AC (with monk's belt). 18th level casting, 12th level meldshaping (but full essentia capacity).

Glimbur
2009-08-07, 04:38 PM
The problem is that he doesnt get many chakras opened, but you can get around that with spells.

Looks like you can't open your Heart or Soul chakras with spells. But being a divine caster might make up for that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-07, 05:45 PM
The incarnum guide is wrong about undead meldshaper.

A necropolitican cleric/meldshaper/sapphire hirearch with undead meldshaper gets to use wis for spellcasting and all his meldshaping. He can use DMM to persist incarnum apotheosis.

The problem is that he doesnt get many chakras opened, but you can get around that with spells.


Using a feat to make yourself SAD is usually a good use of a feat.

For even more fun, you can do necropolitan Incarnate 2/Cloistered Cleric 3/Sapphire Hierarch 10/Cleric PrC 5

You get wisdom for casting, meldshaping, attack, damage, AC (with monk's belt). 18th level casting, 12th level meldshaping (but full essentia capacity).

Con provides HP, and Undead do not have a Con score. Meldshaper classes are very capable at being a backup wall for your party, and a Wall with no Con is a piece of paper waiting to be trashed.

Most Divine casters are Wis+Con anyway. All classes that are called SAD are technically dependent on 2 stats, not 1. Those two are Con and one other.

In all actuality, the feat is only worth it if you get screwed on your Con score for some reason (like being forcefully turned into a sentient undead for story purposes). Most players put their Con scores at 16 anyway, and any Divine Caster class can certainly afford a Con of 16 and a Wis of 18 or better. You don't end up ahead with the Undead Meldshaper feat, you lose HP (a vital line of defense for a PC) and a feat slot.

Normally you would be right about this, but when the Incarnate's key ability scores are the same as a Druid's (Con+Wis), the feat isn't worth it. The reason a feat like Kung-Fu Genius is a good feat is because one class is MAD while another is SAD. But when both classes are SAD for the same stats, the feat is a waste. You can get far better HP off of having a Con score than you ever could from becoming an undead of any variety.

quick_comment
2009-08-07, 06:59 PM
You can cast shapechange or polymorph, and bam, you get your con score back.

Keld Denar
2009-08-07, 07:14 PM
Doesn't change your HP though.

Although there are lots of ways to cheeze out your HP with Pseudo-Con as an undead. Say your Necropolitan ritual was performed by an 8th+ level Dread Necro with Corpsecrafter, that ring from Complete Mage, and done in a Desecrated area. Thats like, +6 HP/level right there...or effectively a 22 Con on top of your d12 HD...

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-07, 09:04 PM
I think you leave out the fact that becoming undead makes you lose your Con score entirely, thus disqualifying you from any Incarnum feats that require a Con score. AKA half the feats in the damn book. Especially the good ones.


That's why Undead meldshaper is a trap. Your Essentia Capacity will always be lower than other meldshapers.