Would a wish be strong enough to change V's barred school?

[silvadel]

I mean it wasnt V's fault that the rules of the universe changed. Not having any teleports is a really painful thing. Just curious if there were any means by which V could fix this.

[R. Malcovitch]

It's more of a plot device than anything else. Teleport, especially when combined with Scry, is notorious for breaking campaigns.

[theinsulabot]

that or the DM is kindly keeping the loaded gun away from the toddler. V is no good with the porting.

[Logalmier]

And besides, once you've chosen a barred school, you can't change your decision. Ever. V just has to make do. Plus Rich needs V to not teleport for plot reasons.

[Haven]

Either way it probably won't happen--teleporting freely is just too convenient and makes it harder to plot around.

[LightningNinja]

Just to put the question in some kind of perspective, a wish (if V could cast 9th level spells) would have a cost comparable to a third of a level gained. Four levels gained is worth a feat, and the Leadership feat could get you a cohort at (your level - 1) with a different barred school. So I'd say such a change would cost about twelve wishes, if it weren't completely prohibited. If you do the math a little differently, and count the cost of gaining four additional levels at 66,000 XP (for a 14th level character), then the cost would be closer to 13 wishes. Either way, you would have to house-rule it in if you wanted it that badly.

[Bibliomancer]

Just to put the question in some kind of perspective, a wish (if V could cast 9th level spells) would have a cost comparable to a third of a level gained. Four levels gained is worth a feat, and the Leadership feat could get you a cohort at (your level - 1) with a different barred school. So I'd say such a change would cost about twelve wishes, if it weren't completely prohibited. If you do the math a little differently, and count the cost of gaining four additional levels at 66,000 XP (for a 14th level character), then the cost would be closer to 13 wishes. Either way, you would have to house-rule it in if you wanted it that badly.

Um, you gain feats every 3 levels, and a feat is not the only benefit of gaining those levels. Also, a cohort is your level -2, if your charisma is high enough. A Thrallherd's thrall is level -1. An 18th level wizard with a 16th level wizard cohort is far better than a 14th level wizard, something about this solution should be changed.

To me, it seems like an excellent opportunity to use the rebuilding quest rules in the PHBII.

[AstralFire]

I would certainly allow a wish to change this effect, but I am a big fan of retraining. (Frex, when Duskblade came out I let my player swap his Wiz/Fighter/EK build for pure Duskblade, and when my new player decided he really hated monk mechanics, I let him swap for a Swordsage.)

Won't happen, though, because teleport kills a lot of narrative opportunities in this kind of story - as already mentioned.

[Morquard]

I think if normal campaigns get upgraded to a different rule system, certain things are taken into consideration.
Of course V took his schools on the basis of what spells they had. I mean everyone does. Now the GM decides "Ok, your assumption was wrong, all the cool spells are in the school you barred because you thought it sucked. But hey you're an expert of Summon Water now".
That would certainly piss of every player.

So I'd guess if they're really upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5 and some big changes happened, the GM would allow the wizatrds to pick a new school once. Well it wasn't done in OOTS, and its not a game, I know that. So I guess V is out of luck.

And yeah its mainly a plot device, teleport would take out all those travel strips. There needed to be a reason why V can't do it, the only one is barred school (except did not learn it - which would be rather unbelievable).
And since TP was changed once, it made for a good joke.

[OITS]

Every DM has to deal with players being able to tele-

-port. I like to set traps.


You won't be loved, and maybe some day they kill themselves but it could also be that they learn from their experience (so far, they haven't - the only reaction was that they hate me more and more^^)





Wizard: I scry on our enemy.
DM: You see the evil sorcerer with his lakay in a dark and small room there do not seem to be any doors.
Wizard: We teleport!*
DM: Please roll d% to see where you go.... Good.. d20, both of you. (*roll**roll**roll*). When you arrive you see a sudden flash and feel the heat surrounding you.
Wizard: What the...?
DM: *roll**roll**roll* That's 37 dmg for you and 18 for you.
Wizard: Wow, 5 HP left, where are they now.
DM: They aren't here anymore.
Wizard: I scry on them.
DM: You see them in a similar room...laughing
Wizard: -.- We teleport back home.
Fighter: We should rest to get our HP back and try it again.
Wizard: OK.

*They are 9th Level so he has 2 Teleports per day

[Malanthyus]

Is there any effect similiar to teleport that he could research?

[Lkctgo]

Is there any effect similiar to teleport that he could research?

Nope. No Chance of that.

[Kilremgor]

(S)he technically can, by the following means at least:
1) Using Wish to duplicate Greater Teleport (Wish allows replicating spells from prohibited school 7-level or lower - Greater Teleport is level 7). Requires 17th Wizard level.
2) Seed: Transport, Epic Spellcasting. Requires 21 Wizard level.
3) External source, various ways.
4) If OotS-verse reaches 4e someday, it has Class Feature Retraining in PHBII :)

[The Pink Ninja]

Well wishing can change your stats...

[thubby]

Well wishing can change your stats...

by 1 point, per wish...

seeing as how spells don't generally allow a complete revision of memories, at least extremely old ones, and the rather enormous implications of doing this, i see it as beyond wish.

and if specialization is something more than memory, but instead some kind of magical hard wiring, well, wish can barely undo recent events in history.

[Twilight Jack]

As a DM, I'd allow a wizard to swap out a prohibited school with a wish. To my way of thinking, that's the sort of thing this spell should be for. Of course, I'd use the "DM can screw you" clause of the spell to guard against any potential abuses.

[AstralFire]

by 1 point, per wish...

seeing as how spells don't generally allow a complete revision of memories, at least extremely old ones, and the rather enormous implications of doing this, i see it as beyond wish.

and if specialization is something more than memory, but instead some kind of magical hard wiring, well, wish can barely undo recent events in history.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm

4th level power. It just costs XP. It doesn't allow for changing specialization, but it's certainly the type of thing it's meant to fix.

Wish is 9th level.

This is not unbalanced; this is not someone ending up with more net power, unless they made a really bad specialization choice for the campaign. This is someone changing their specialization. If it makes them change to a specialization you consider overpowered, why didn't you house rule that specialization down in the first place?

[ericgrau]

Regardless of whether or not it's game breaking, changing a barred school seems outside of the limits of wish. There are even limits within the spell dependent on it.

But that doesn't mean it isn't game breaking. I mean, if a player would really want a wish to do something, then that probably means whatever it is is fairly strong. Maybe not campaign ending, but still too strong to be giving out willy nilly. And multiple wishes with similar power level could quickly get out of hand.

[AstralFire]

Frankly, I'd much rather see Wish used to revise a character specialization than I would Miracle be used in all of a cleric's 9th level spell slots because it can replicate any cleric spell of 8th or lower or any spell, period, of 7th or lower for insane flexibility and then pay 5,000 XP just in case you need direct deity intercession.

[ShiningEntity]

Just for the record, there are rules for changing class features, including specialized schools of magic, in the PHB2.

[Bibliomancer]

Just for the record, there are rules for changing class features, including specialized schools of magic, in the PHB2.

However, this is such an extreme change that a rebuilding quest might be in order, which is also in the 3.5e PHBII, as I mentioned above.

[Moriato]

Actually, V is high enough level to cast 7th level spells, so V *could* use Limited Wish to duplicate Teleport (but not Greater Teleport) for the low, low price of 300xp. Assuming V knows Limited Wish of course.

[thubby]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm

4th level power. It just costs XP. It doesn't allow for changing specialization, but it's certainly the type of thing it's meant to fix.

Wish is 9th level.

This is not unbalanced; this is not someone ending up with more net power, unless they made a really bad specialization choice for the campaign. This is someone changing their specialization. If it makes them change to a specialization you consider overpowered, why didn't you house rule that specialization down in the first place?

it's not overpowered in game balance terms, but there are a lot of balanced things you can't do within existing rules.
"why not" is never a good reason.
wish isn't permission do do whatever you want, like any other spell it tells you what it can do.

[Optimystik]

I think the story would be far more adversely impacted by just giving V Wish to begin with, never mind trying to put it to this particular use.

Revising your entire character probably falls under the whole "undesirable effects" clause; this is particularly true since flat teleportation IS one of the explicitly acceptable uses of Wish.

If V does get a Wish, the best use of it from a writing perspective would probably be the "undo misfortune" bit, the "resurrection" bit, or the "item creation" bit.

[Berserk Monk]

And besides, once you've chosen a barred school, you can't change your decision. Ever. V just has to make do. Plus Rich needs V to not teleport for plot reasons.

Unless it's to kill a momma dragon from killing hirs family, binding their souls to her body, and entering a different plane of existence, but what are the odds of that happening...again?

[Red XIV]

It's V's fault for not learning Teleport before the switch to 3.5.

We know from Zz'dtri that it was possible in the OotS-verse to carry over old versions of spells when the world switched from 3.0 to 3.5. I can't think of any reason why the old, Transmutation school version of Teleport couldn't be similarly houseruled in. But it's far too late for V to do that now.

[holywhippet]

I'm more curious as to why Durkon doesn't just cast wind walk again - that should be faster than travelling by boat.

[AstralFire]

it's not overpowered in game balance terms, but there are a lot of balanced things you can't do within existing rules.
"why not" is never a good reason.
wish isn't permission do do whatever you want, like any other spell it tells you what it can do.

Wish is all about whether or not something is balanced when it comes to the other clause.

[Berserk Monk]

I'm more curious as to why Durkon doesn't just cast wind walk again - that should be faster than travelling by boat.

How long does wind walk last? Long enough to cross an ocean? Also, even if Durkon memorizes it several times each day, if he runs out of it, he can sleep and cast it again.

[archon_huskie]

I would allow the wish spell to change a barred school. Swap out one school for another. There are still two barred schools. Now I wouldn't let the character automatically replace the spells in their spellbook, so they would have to payt the costs of learning the spells of their new school and writting them in the spellbook. (Unless they cast another wish spell to rewrite their spellbook for them.)


Now the questions I would have are:

1) could two wish spells be used to eliminate barred schools, that is a specialized wizard with no barred schools of magic.
2) could a wish spell give an extra school of specialization, that is a wizard with two specializations and four barred schools of magic.

3) wouldn't it just be easier to buy a rod of teleport 3.0 or lower version?

[Red XIV]

Now the questions I would have are:

1) could two wish spells be used to eliminate barred schools, that is a specialized wizard with no barred schools of magic.
No. Specialized wizards have barred schools for a reason. Take away the barred schools, and they're not specialized at all. If I were DMing, you couldn't pay me to allow that.

[AstralFire]

No. Specialized wizards have barred schools for a reason. Take away the barred schools, and they're not specialized at all. If I were DMing, you couldn't pay me to allow that.

While I am for wish changing a specialization, there is indeed no way in hell you could get me to agree to allowing multispecialization or no-barred school Wizards.

[Bibliomancer]

Isn't a multispecialization wizard called an int-based sorcerer?

[holywhippet]

How long does wind walk last? Long enough to cross an ocean? Also, even if Durkon memorizes it several times each day, if he runs out of it, he can sleep and cast it again.

1 hour per level (so maybe 14-15 hours for Durkon). Top speed is 60 miles per hour.



3) wouldn't it just be easier to buy a rod of teleport 3.0 or lower version?

?? You mean buy an item that offers teleport from an earlier edition? I don't see a DM allowing that. It would have to be converted to the current rules which restricts V from using it.

[Guancyto]

While I am for wish changing a specialization, there is indeed no way in hell you could get me to agree to allowing multispecialization or no-barred school Wizards.

What about in exchange for one spell slot per level that previously had to be used on their specialization, and having to trade all class features/feats/PrCs requiring specialization for something else? Would that be allowable? :smallcool:

[Kaihaku]

Is there any effect similiar to teleport that he could research?

Well, I think it's possible if unlikely, Druids get Master Earth (Magic of Faerûn p107), a transmutation spell that functions in a manner similar to 'teleport'.