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Mauril Everleaf
2009-08-08, 01:40 AM
I am considering playing an Archivist in an upcoming campaign. This will be my first actual 3.5 campaign, although I have played a few sessions here and there and have paid attention on these boards for some time. My question is not what spells to look for or how to get them but whether I should take the class for all 20 levels or PrC out at some point. If I should PrC, where should I do so and into what classes? I do not need heavy optimization, as the group plays rather low-power games (the casters prefer blasting and fighters aren't considered useless), but I would like to be an effective player.

Advice on feats and skills (especially ones necessary for multiclassing) would be appreciated also.

RTGoodman
2009-08-08, 01:50 AM
I think Archivist 20 is probably a pretty solid build (to get the most out of your Dark Knowledge), but the last two levels are... less than stellar. If I were building a 20th level build, I might dip at least a level or so into one of the divine PrCs that gets you Turn Undead (for powering divine feats), or really any other full-casting PrCs. Loremaster is also thematically appropriate, but the feat prerequisites pretty much suck. (You'll probably have a Knowledge Skill Focus, but metamagic and/or item creation might be harder to come by).

As far as feats, you should pick up Knowledge Devotion (CChamp). It's thematically appropriate, and gives you bonuses when you make a Knowledge check to get info about an opponent (i.e., all the time since you're an Archivist). After that, well, grabbing some of the Archivist of X feats to be able to use Dark Knowledge against different targets.

For skills, max out Knowledges that give info on creatures (Nature for animals, Planes for outsiders, Religion for undead, Local for humanoids, etc.), and then probably Spellcraft and some Concentration. After that, if you've got points left, get some cross-class skills. Tumble is always helpful, as is UMD. I personally like Forgery, because of what the opposed check is and how (un)likely it is that anyone else will be good at it.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-08, 01:52 AM
http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-ClericalDomains.pdf will probably help you if you haven't seen it (you can learn any spell which is in a Domain due to those being Divine spells). What is the rest of the party made up of? (For instance, Haste is a good spell but you won't need it as much if there's a buffer Wizard or Sorcerer.)

Mauril Everleaf
2009-08-08, 02:02 AM
It is a large but ever-changing party. The only characters I know for sure are a Warblade and a Favored Soul. One of the players always (from what I am told) plays something dragon related, so I expect there to be one of those. There are probably seven players (one of which will GM for a while, then rotate with another player) at max, but likely few full casters.

Talic
2009-08-08, 02:13 AM
If you're good, I recommend at least a level or three of Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). It'll let you access divine Feats, as previous posters have said.

Specifically, Divine Metamagic. Now, I'm not suggesting you go for high cost Metamagics. Not at all. You won't have a whole lot of turning attempts.

Extend is a great one. At level 8 or higher, you get essentially any hours/level buff all day, without the spell slot. At higher levels? You can get spells that last multiple days, allowing you to have a bit more freedom with your spell choice. Plus, it's a low cost feat, so, when you run out of Turn attempts, you can always just eat the spell level for a couple more.

Tempest Fennac
2009-08-08, 02:17 AM
In that case, I'd recommend getting some Druid battlefield control spells (such as Entangle) as well as some Arcane buffs like Haste. You can learn a few spells earlier then the FS (Lesser Restoration is level 1 for Paladins, and Heal is level 5 for Adepts, so you can lean those spells at those levels). If the Favoured Soul isn't focusing on healing, the Vigour line, which is detailed throughout http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-Cleric.pdf , are better then cures for out-of-combat healing.

oxinabox
2009-08-08, 02:28 AM
ooh, Get Wands of Cure___.
You don't get to spontainiosly changhe spellign in to healing spells.

But you can use wands without having to do use magic devise.
That way you can heal when needed but use your spell slots for what is aproporate.
Maybe ask the party to chip in (since the'll be getting the healing)and get a couple of all healing wands:
eg (i may be gerting minor an light confused)
1 cure light (1 HP- useless, unless your at a low lvl, and you need to bring the wizard back in to +ve hp, after she decide to syth attack the enemies)
4 cure minor (1d8)
3 cure moderate (2d8)
1 cure serious (3d8)

Scale that to the appropriate lvl for your party.



Also for the LOLs is suggest toking spells form the magic domain, taking magic missile from the force domain, and fireball from the firedomain.
And being a divine casting wizard.
also see if your dm will let you learn from the divine bard list. (UA)


Considered spending a feat and getting heavy armour, then you can put your DEX (assuming pt buy), into INT and WIS.
Thus reducing the Archivists MAD.

Talic
2009-08-08, 02:32 AM
Don't be afraid to look at paladin and ranger spells as well. Many are loaded with awesome and win. And remember domains. About heck, about 1 in 4 or 5 domain spells are arcane, and their presence on a domain list makes them fair game. (Magic domain gives AMF at Level 6, for instance)

Leon
2009-08-08, 02:54 AM
You can cast healing spells via the Spontaneous Healer (upto WIS mod/day) feat from Complete Divine.

Look into the other Divine classes spells when you can as it really broaden the option you have to work with.

Your going to have good ranks in most Knowledge skills so the feat Knowledge Devotion is very nice to have


Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion is a good PrC for Archivists
If you go with the Dip into Exorcist first your turn undead feature will continue to progess

Myrmex
2009-08-08, 02:55 AM
Contemplative, in Complete Divine, can be dipped to pick up a free domain, around level 10. You need lots of ranks in know: religion, but that's a darn good skill to have with Knowledge Devotion (from Complete Champion) and Dark Knowledge, since undead are pretty common.

Talic
2009-08-08, 03:22 AM
Agreed on that. I recommend the Healing domain. Add in Domain Spontaneity, and you can emulate Spontaneous Healing whenever you need it.

There are Comp Div. PrC's that grant the Inquisition domain too. That domain is solid gold.

Wings of Peace
2009-08-08, 05:36 AM
Before playing an Archivist I would recommend you have a serious talk with your dm about the availability of scrolls from the different classes as Archivist's power is directly related to the available resources to learn spells.

Fishy
2009-08-08, 05:57 AM
The more disgustingly broken things they can do rely on your access to scrolls of Domains and things, but the Cleric Spell List is plenty powerful all by itself.

I like Archivist 8/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster. Dark Knowledge: Foe is one of the more awesome abilities, Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion is less painful when it gets you into two PrCs, and Loremaster gives you a free feat anyway.

Talic
2009-08-08, 06:32 AM
I can't remember how offhand, but I do seem to recall an exploit to allow other arcane spells into Archivist.

oxinabox
2009-08-08, 06:48 AM
I can't remember how offhand, but I do seem to recall an exploit to allow other arcane spells into Archivist.

most common (read core) arcane spells are asvailable in a domain.
TO find full ist of domains with there spells got the the bottom of this page (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/Index_LevDom.php)
And above that are spell lists for all casters, arcivists can learn from all divine caster (which IIRC include the Healer for dnd miniatures, so get some healling spells at a lower lvl, very nice)
Arcivists can learn all spells from all domains (dm permitting).
they must learn spells not from the cleric list by actully learning from the scroll though.
(so they can't use their lvl up spells on noncleric powers)

Myrmex
2009-08-08, 06:54 AM
I can't remember how offhand, but I do seem to recall an exploit to allow other arcane spells into Archivist.

I think Anyspell shows up in a domain, which allows for preparing arcane spells in a lower slot.

You could also find scrolls from clerics with the Custom Domain, in a Dragon Magazine I think.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-08-08, 06:54 AM
I can't remember how offhand, but I do seem to recall an exploit to allow other arcane spells into Archivist.

There is a feat called Southern Magic it switches spell type Arcane to divine and vice versa only three times a day.

Leon
2009-08-08, 08:07 AM
Before playing an Archivist I would recommend you have a serious talk with your dm about the availability of scrolls from the different classes as Archivist's power is directly related to the available resources to learn spells.

Yes, this is important.
It is extremely aggravating to see spell books all the time for the damm wizard with nary a Divine spell
While the PC can still do research for new spells at the Local university, its not fun to be stopped from gathering new spells by lack of caring by the DM
(Mind you, im still not sure mine has grasped the class can access still...)

PurinaDragonCho
2009-08-08, 09:44 AM
I think Anyspell shows up in a domain, which allows for preparing arcane spells in a lower slot.

You could also find scrolls from clerics with the Custom Domain, in a Dragon Magazine I think.

I don't believe Anyspell works. You can only cast Anyspell from a domain spell slot, which Archivists don't have.

It is important to talk to your DM about scroll availability, as mentioned upthread. Even with very limited access to other things, though, Dark Knowledge + Cleric spells + decent armor can make you a very effective character. The problem I see is not getting domain spells, it's getting spells at much lower levels (Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell from the Paladin list, for example) - those are the things that will probably upset your DM.

I always try to get identify - casting it as a divine spell means you don't need a pearl worth 100 gp. Also, entangle and produce flame are very useful at low levels. Also, get the spell Divine Insight from the SC - bonuses to knowledge checks are great.

Draconic Archivist is a good feat, since you'll probably have a high Knowledge Arcana. Archivist of Nature is not as awesome, because it requires ranks in Knowledge Nature, whihc you have no other reason to put a lot of ranks in - although if you're in a giant or fey heavy campaign, it could be extremely useful.

Have fun!

Sliver
2009-08-08, 10:06 AM
Didn't see it mentioned so I will...
Lowest level versions of spells (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=515321)
Good Archivist spells (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-812050)

Yora
2009-08-08, 10:15 AM
I just took my first real look at the archivist. Why is the class considered to be that good?
It's mostly a wizard who uses the cleric spell list.

Of course, both cleric and wizard are very good themselves, but do the cleric spells work so well if you don't buff yourself into a melee fighter?

vampire2948
2009-08-08, 10:23 AM
I just took my first real look at the archivist. Why is the class considered to be that good?
It's mostly a wizard who uses the cleric spell list.

Of course, both cleric and wizard are very good themselves, but do the cleric spells work so well if you don't buff yourself into a melee fighter?

Dark Knowledge is pretty good, and the fact that they can learn ALL divine spells. Often at a level lower than a cleric might be able to. e.g. Heal at level 5, rather than 6 for a Cleric.

I believe that is why.

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 10:49 AM
Also, action economy. Most Dark Knowledges are move actions. Move actions are typically not utilized by wizards, except...you know...to move. Also, check out the 11th level Dark Knowledge. Move action to Daze or Stun someone. So a mid level archivst can cast a standard action spell to buff his allies, spend his move to disable an opponent, and then cast a Quickened spell to defend himself. Or spend those 3 actions to disable multiple opponents or whatever. The ability to utilize their move action in a more efficient manner than a Wizard is worth the loss of the few Wizard spells that they don't normally get access to anyway.

woodenbandman
2009-08-08, 10:49 AM
Archivist > Cleric in the spellcasting department, because you can cherrypick all the good stuff. Want haste? Got haste. Want Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, or Recitation? Got it. Time Stop? you bet. Shapechange? Uhuh. The only thing that arcanists are truly tight-fisted about is Celerity, which is pretty much the only thing keeping a wizard ahead of an archivist at all, if only a little, because Archivists can take all the good buff spells, all the good attack spells, all the good battlefield control spells...

Some good ones:

Black tentacles (slime domain I think)
Grease (definitely slime domain)
Any bard spell (divine bard, unearthed arcana). Slightly cheesy.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (Spell compendium, cleric 5)

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 11:17 AM
The lack of Glitterdust and Benign Transposition...and Ray of Clumisness, and a few other prime gems makes me a little sad, but stunning the hell out of someone with my move action more than makes up for it!

KABLAM! I know so much about you, it makes your head spin! Now sit down and shut up while my friends cut you into litle pieces!

ColdSepp
2009-08-08, 11:21 AM
The lack of Glitterdust and Benign Transposition...and Ray of Clumisness, and a few other prime gems makes me a little sad, but stunning the hell out of someone with my move action more than makes up for it!

KABLAM! I know so much about you, it makes your head spin! Now sit down and shut up while my friends cut you into litle pieces!

Wait... Can't a cleric with Greater Anyspell scribe those?

Nohwl
2009-08-08, 12:45 PM
I just took my first real look at the archivist. Why is the class considered to be that good?
It's mostly a wizard who uses the cleric spell list.

Of course, both cleric and wizard are very good themselves, but do the cleric spells work so well if you don't buff yourself into a melee fighter?

you can cast all divine spells as an archivist. you have clerics, druids, paladins, rangers and the domain spells in core. theres a bard variant that allows for all bard spells to be cast. the divine magician cleric variant allows for even more spells, and there is a favored soul variant that allows for all wizard spells level 6 or lower. if you look in masters of the wild, the class hexer allows for all wizard spells. don't forget all of the other divine classes out there.


The lack of Glitterdust and Benign Transposition...and Ray of Clumisness, and a few other prime gems makes me a little sad, but stunning the hell out of someone with my move action more than makes up for it!

KABLAM! I know so much about you, it makes your head spin! Now sit down and shut up while my friends cut you into litle pieces!

if you have enough splat books, you can get almost any spell you want.

PurinaDragonCho
2009-08-08, 01:21 PM
Wait... Can't a cleric with Greater Anyspell scribe those?

I think so, yes. But I'm pretty sure you'd have to cast it from a 6th level domain slot. As I read Anyspell/Greater Anyspell, they do not work with Archivists. And I don't think that Holt Warned trick to get domain slots works either - I really wanted it to, but I think at best, you get the Plant Domain. Not domain slots you can fill with anything. I don't know of any way for an Archivist to get domain slots, short of taking cleric levels.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-08, 01:27 PM
As I read Anyspell/Greater Anyspell, they do not work with Archivists.

RAW, any spell you prepare with Anyspell/Greater Anyspell will occupy non-existent domain slots. Fixing it isn't terribly hard, you just need to gain domain slots.

ColdSepp
2009-08-08, 01:37 PM
RAW, any spell you prepare with Anyspell/Greater Anyspell will occupy non-existent domain slots. Fixing it isn't terribly hard, you just need to gain domain slots.

Well, if a cleric gets them, then scribes them, they are Divine Scrolls. An Archivest then adds them to his Prayerbook, and they are therefore on his class list, right?

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 01:42 PM
if you have enough splat books, you can get almost any spell you want.

If you have enough splat books, your DM can crush you beneath the weight of them.

Whats yer point?

Archivist is still limited by DM's dictation of availability, moreso than wizards because Archivists don't automatically get ANY spell they want at any level, they only get cleric spells. If they want to scribe in any crazy stuff, they have to find it.

As much as I hate to say Archivists are balanced by Rule 0, they really are...

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-08, 01:43 PM
Well, if a cleric gets them, then scribes them, they are Divine Scrolls. An Archivest then adds them to his Prayerbook, and they are therefore on his class list, right?

Again, by RAW, the spell specifies that any spell you scribe with Anyspell/Greater Anyspell occupies a non-existent domain slot. Regardless of the method of acquiring Anyspell/Greater, casting it causes the spell you choose to prepare to occupy a non-existent domain slot.

Doc Roc
2009-08-08, 01:47 PM
I just took my first real look at the archivist. Why is the class considered to be that good?
It's mostly a wizard who uses the cleric spell list.

Of course, both cleric and wizard are very good themselves, but do the cleric spells work so well if you don't buff yourself into a melee fighter?

Hahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahah
Ohhh... Oh that's a good one... Golly.
It's a wizard with access to every divine list, excellent class features, cool fluff, a superb class skill list, and canonical access to all domains ever. This means things like Timestop are open to him. As for the anyspell trick, it specifies that they are still arcane spells, if I remember correctly, in the modern version so that's dubious for an entirely different set of reasons. There is a trick, I just can't remember it.

Nohwl
2009-08-08, 02:11 PM
If you have enough splat books, your DM can crush you beneath the weight of them.

Whats yer point?

Archivist is still limited by DM's dictation of availability, moreso than wizards because Archivists don't automatically get ANY spell they want at any level, they only get cleric spells. If they want to scribe in any crazy stuff, they have to find it.

As much as I hate to say Archivists are balanced by Rule 0, they really are...

there are artificers pre-errata, level 12 warlocks, and you can interpret secret page to allow you to gain access to spells you don't have.

you probably won't get every spell you want, but i don't think a reasonable dm would limit you to just the 2 spells per level you get.

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 02:19 PM
No, I'd drop some scrolls of regular cleric spells (Archivists need these also, since they only get 4 spells per spell level from leveling) just like a wizard, and I'd drop a few domain spells like Fly and whatnot and some Pally/Ranger spells. I'd even be more lenient if the party didnt' have an actual arcanist, since thats a position that an archivist with a little love CAN easily fill.

I would never hand out Heal as a 5th level spell though...

RTGoodman
2009-08-08, 02:25 PM
I would never hand out Heal as a 5th level spell though...

What about holy sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) as a level 4 spell? :smalltongue: I had a crazy idea a while back about using a combination of archivist, some heavy armor, and a slew of Cleric and Paladin spells like holy sword to out-CoDzilla CoDzilla.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-08-08, 03:01 PM
I am relying on the DMs (as there will be a new one every few levels) to check any power that my character has. I expect them to be fair, so finding standard cleric spells shouldn't be too tough. If they need a little extra power, then I might be able to find non-cleric divine scrolls. If I am rolling a little high on the power curve, then finding those scrolls will be likely all but non-existence.

I picked this class because I really liked the concept behind it. I like the idea of a bookish priest and this concept seemed to fit my character (who starts out his career as a scribe in a temple) better than the cloistered cleric. I would like to get the maximum out of my class features and try to keep my spell list rather balanced with the rest of the party and focus mostly on party buffs and then control.

Gleaning advice from above:
For simplicity, Archivist 20 is a decent build, although there are some thematically appropriate PrCs to consider

Feats to get:
Knowledge Devotion
Divine Metamagic (Extend)
Spontaneous Healer
Archivist of X

Skills to bother with:
Any and all Knowledges
Spellcraft
Concentration

Is there anything I have missed?

olentu
2009-08-08, 03:15 PM
If I remember the feat correctly (I think it is from dragon and my recall is not as good on stuff from there) then if you can find a caster with alternative source spell then you can get any arcane spell off their list.

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 03:19 PM
Holy Sword is crappy. It over writes whatever your weapon was with the effect. So yea...its pretty good when you get it at 7, but otherwise hardly OP. I'd rather have a +1 Wounding sword with GMW on it most of the time. Also, duration is too short.

OP, you can't use DMM as a straight Archivist20 (well, technically you CAN if you can use the Bone Talisman spell...borken!) because you won't have anything that gives you the ability to Turn/Rebuke Undead. Thats where the Sacred Exorcist dip comes in.

That said, you don't NEED DMM. I'd just get regular Extend Spell, or better yet, plan on buying a Lesser MM Rod of Extend.

Depending on your race, if you go Gnome, there is a feat called Trivial Knowledge that lets you roll all Knowledge checks twice and take the greater of the 2. This is really awesome with Dark Knowledge and Knowledge Devotion.

I'd also pick up Quicken Spell at some point. And...when in doubt, you really can't go wrong with Improved Initiative...

Mauril Everleaf
2009-08-08, 03:30 PM
My race choice is a combination elf-dwarf and we haven't exactly worked out how racial feats work for that yet.

Thanks for the note on DMM(Extend). I'll make sure to switch it over to MM(Extend).

As crafting is something I want to do, I may spend some feats/skills on that. I'll make myself metamagic rods when I can.

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 03:58 PM
Craft Wonderous is AMAZING if your DM gives you some down time. You can make all kinds of neat stuff, including the basic items you need like a +Int headband.

And yea, Craft Rod at 12 is pretty nice too. Do note that you or a friend need to have the MM feat in question to craft a MM Rod. So...no MM Rod of Quicken if you don't have Quicken Spell (which you should). If you have a friend Wizard who likes to shoot Ray spells and has the Split Ray Metamagic feat, he can colaborate with you and you can craft him a MM Rod of Split Ray, which is all kinds of fun. Since others are allowed to donate spells and features and stuff to crafting, they can also donate XP and of course cash and you can craft stuff for them too.

Kosjsjach
2009-08-08, 04:38 PM
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this yet, though I suppose it's possible it's just assumed at this point.

You might want to take a glance at the Collector of Stories skill trick in Complete Scoundrel. A +5 competence bonus to one Knowledge check per encounter to identify a creature or learn its special powers or vulnerabilities (which by all rights should work with Dark Knowledge and Knowledge Devotion) is nothing to scoff at.

Gotta say, I like this thread. I'm a fan of the Archivist class too, though I haven't had a chance to play it. It's a passtime of mine to throw together PCs in my head, and threads like this give me all sorts of mental toys to play with.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-08, 06:07 PM
No, I'd drop some scrolls of regular cleric spells (Archivists need these also, since they only get 4 spells per spell level from leveling) just like a wizard, and I'd drop a few domain spells like Fly and whatnot and some Pally/Ranger spells. I'd even be more lenient if the party didnt' have an actual arcanist, since thats a position that an archivist with a little love CAN easily fill.

I would never hand out Heal as a 5th level spell though...Keep in mind that the Archivist gets Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, and ECS spells out that people can collaborate on the prerequisites for items. So if you ever include a friendly NPC Adept(the most common caster in most settings), the Archivist can pay him a bit for his time, and get a scroll of any Adept spell. And the Adept has a surprisingly good spell list. (5th level Heal, Web, Scorching Ray, Polymorph).

Tukka
2009-08-08, 06:42 PM
I'm playing an archivist/malconvoker in one of my games now. It's a great combo, but really only if you want to play a summoning specialist. It's one of the best class combos for that type of character though.

One spell you definitely want to grab is Lore of the Gods (Complete Champion), make sure you worship a god that normally gives access to the Knowledge domain. It's a 10 minutes/level spell it grants you a +10 insight bonus to all knowledge checks. With that one, from mid-low levels onward you'll almost always make a DC 25 check for Dark Knowledge, and have a nice shot at making the DC 35 check.

Unfortunately Collector of Stories doesn't help you with Dark Knowledge checks (by RAW) but it's still probably worth picking up. Between your high Int, ranks in knowledge skills, Lore of the Gods and Collector of Stories, you will always know quite a few things about whatever it is you're fighting.

Talic
2009-08-08, 09:46 PM
Good spells to consider:
Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4) - Immunity to Fatigue, Exhaustion, Daze, Nonlethal damage, more.

Shapeshift (Druid 9, Animal 9) - Polymorph on Crack. Combine with the above and a form with regeneration to become practically immune to damage. (Regeneration turns most forms of damage into nonlethal damage.)

Bite of the Werebear (Druid 6) - Nasty enhancement bonuses. +16 to strength? Yes please.

Cleric defensive buffs - Sheltered Vitality, Deathward, Divine Power, Energy Immunity, Overland Flight.

Yes, druid has an excellent set of buffs. Don't overlook that list. So does Pally. Archivist can easily out CoDzilla Clerics and Druids, because it gets the best of both worlds.

AslanCross
2009-08-08, 09:51 PM
I can't remember how offhand, but I do seem to recall an exploit to allow other arcane spells into Archivist.

It might be related to Sword of the Arcane Order, which allows Paladins and Rangers with the feat to prepare arcane spells.

In any case, I was looking over Spell Compendium earlier and found Moon Bolt:
1d4 Strength damage/3 caster levels. Even at level 7 (minimum to cast Moon Bolt, a 4th-level spell), you can do 2d4 strength damage to up to TWO creatures at long range. Fort HALF. Instantaneous duration, so no dispelling.

It also makes undead curl up and become helpless (Will Neg, though).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-08, 10:36 PM
Darkbolt, a Darkness domain-specific spell,is very nice. Level 5, allows you to make a ranged touch save-v-daze as a free action for half CL rounds.