PDA

View Full Version : Problems with setting level for a campaign



peacenlove
2009-08-08, 04:05 AM
Hallo all! In about a month i will be the DM of a (hopefully) long spanning campaign. However i have encountered some problems. I was preparing the campaign to be high level (around 14th and with lots of shadow magic / martial adepts, homebrew world with lots of ideas from these board :smallbiggrin:) and a friend of mine promised to find me a group of 4 to 5 players. However 2 things happened.

a) the players he found have never played dnd but are interested to learn. I thought myself: no problem, i will simplify the game and make it lower level, after all i got one month of preparation :smallwink: . But that lend me to the second problem...

b) my friend wants ABSOLUTELY to play a high level campaign. We played together dnd for 3 years, mainly with me as a DM (one campaign lasted for one year, spanning from level 1 to level 10, half xp aqcuisition) but many games were up to level 10. In addition i do not know ANY of his friends, so i can't speak to them about dnd, nor can i prepare them for the complications of high level play. I warned him multiple times about it but his responses were like "Don't worry if they make mistakes they can retrain their feats/class features etc."

What should i do? I don't want to run a needlesy complicated game and disheartening new dnd players but it seems that i can't convince the other player to stay.
If you need additional info i am happy to provide it :smallsmile:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-08, 04:09 AM
Don't start new players at a high level, they'll be completely lost and your friend's character will end up stealing the show and making them sidekicks. Tell your friend that unless he finds some new, more experienced players, the game will start at a level they'll be more comfortable with.

Yora
2009-08-08, 04:22 AM
Yeah, you have to start low, probably at 1st level at best. And I wouldn't skip over levels to quickly. They should have some time getting used to 1st level and then getting some experience how things change at 2ns level, and so on. If you think they really manage quickly to get used to their new abilities, you could speed up the tempo of leveling up, but it would still be quite a long time to reach level 15.

If you mostly want the story and fluff aspect of high level adventuring, I'd change the setting accordingly. The really powerful archmages are "just" 12th level and not 20th, and the unbelivably powerful dragons are ancient, with no wyrms and great wyrms, while most are just young adult or adult.
But if it's about the huge array of magical items and spells, that's just not going to work with beginning players.

Kaihaku
2009-08-08, 04:25 AM
You could start him at a higher level with the in character task of training the others and getting them up to speed. The increased CR of the encounters should level the new players quickly. Then, once they're nearly the same level, run a sitting or two where the experienced player's character isn't present, possibly being in some trouble, and get the new players up to standard level (level 5-9 would be a good point for this), possibly helping the experienced player's character in some big way at the same time.

I've seen something like this done and work on a number of occasions, though it really depends on the group involved.

oxinabox
2009-08-08, 07:14 AM
I started a game with new players at lvl 9.
I spent proablo 10 hours helping the Charbuild.
with multiclassing and PrC's.

It's went OK.

However then i introduced a more exprienced player at the smae lvl, and so he cracks out some rather obsure things that I had to go look up.
and he pu the party to shame.

How ever Ithat was partly my fault, I sort of encougaged him to play chaotic evil.
Cos the party said they were evil, and i wanted someone who could show the mhow it was done.

peacenlove
2009-08-08, 07:29 AM
Thanks for all the input :smallbiggrin: i took your comments into consideration. Fact is that the story is based on making diplomatic relations with nations that are completely different from the PC one in preparation for a great war. Thus if they play it cool and smart there is a chance that no/little encounter happens (although THOG SHMUSH! playstyle is expected too :smallbiggrin:).
I spoke to my friend, he clarified to me that they have played dnd before but not to that level (communication via phone tends to leave details out :smallfurious:) and they want to try 14th level. Also he isn't much of an optimizer (wilder/anarchic initiate focusing on blasting) and i tend to buff physical damage classes (Thanks fax celestis for the ToB core classes update :smallsmile:). The only totally new member is his girlfriend who just decided to join but i hope that with 4 other players knowing the game she should stand on her own fast.

Berserk Monk
2009-08-08, 07:36 AM
Start low level. It'll be easier for them to catch on and tell you friend that lower level can just be enough fun as higher.

Emy
2009-08-08, 07:42 AM
Yeah, you have to start low, probably at 1st level at best.

I disagree. Characters at level 1 can die easily just by being a little unlucky.

I think starting at level 3, with max HP for each of those hit dice (standard for levels 4+) would be best. Additionally, make sure they have some basic out of combat HP recovery mechanism (martial spirit or a wand of lesser vigor).

icefractal
2009-08-08, 01:04 PM
I can see the guy's point - everybody seems to start their campaigns at 1st level, and campaign rarely go on long enough to reach high-level before RL gets in the way. As a result, I do get tired of low levels sometimes.

On the other hand, there is definitely a lot more to keep track of at high-level. It depends somewhat on the classes the newer players have, but starting at, say, 11th can be daunting.

As a potential compromise, what about 6th level? It's not really low-level anymore, people are getting second attacks and 3rd level spells, and can even have made a start in a prestige class, but it doesn't have the complexity of level 11+ yet.

Doc Roc
2009-08-08, 01:16 PM
I have a different opinion. Start them at high level, hand them fairly simple characters like chargers or FINISHED martial adepts. Characters who are influential, elegant, easy to pick up and play but not lacking in options. Sit down with each of them separately, and talk them through their character, run a couple of small sample fights. Make sure your experience friend plays the primary arcanist. Make sure they understand that you're doing this not to frustrate them, but because you trust their abilities.

And you should. D&D is trivially easy to learn. Low level play is often very dependent on individual dice rolls. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a character I loved killed out from under me by a single set of lucky rake attacks by a lion or similar.

That shouldn't be anyone's first game. Ever.

seedjar
2009-08-08, 02:01 PM
Edit: Whoops, missed your second post Peace. I guess my suggestions aren't quite as applicable. Sounds like it has the potential to turn chaotic, but good luck - should be fun if the group dynamic is positive.

This is an interesting problem. I can see the reasoning behind all of the suggestions above.
If you can contact the potential group before the first session, I might suggest preparing a short primer for the campaign and ask the players to give you character concepts. Using their responses, prebuild characters for them, mechanically - perhaps leave a little wiggle room for skill training and the like, or prepare to have a rebuilding session at your second or third game.
Level 10 seems a steep place to start folks new to the game. They almost certainly won't have had a chance to develop strong opinions on the types of game mechanics they like to exploit - they may not even have a clear picture of what kinds of in-character concepts they want to play. I say, do your first session at a more manageable level.
1 seems a little low - make some characters at 3rd or 5th level to fit the thematic suggestions of your players, and maybe a few more to present as alternatives if someone changes their mind. But don't just stat them out - also prepare a few paragraphs that explain the mechanical strategies that each character can make good use of. Go through the use of Power Attack for your Fighter, Diplomacy and other NPC-interaction checks for the party face, etc.
Design your first session as a tutorial. Take them through a simple battle with mookish enemies that are plentiful, not too threatening, and not especially resistant to anyone's special abilities. The Rouge should have the opportunity to Sneak Attack and coordinate flanking positions with other melee-types. The Wizard should be able to impress the rest of the group by throwing down Grease in the path of a charging enemy mob. In the first session, it's pretty safe to be face-slappingly obvious about what players should be doing - they'll probably be too confounded by the rulebooks to notice you're leading them by the nose.
After that, if your friend really wants to go straight to high-level play, I suggest leveling up each session until you hit the level that they're satisfied at, and really coach the new players through character creation. Maybe make some jumps forward in time between each session - I don't know if it fits your campaign, but perhaps the PCs could all be forced into each other's company long-term somehow (in a military unit, prisoners of a gladiatorial coliseum, etc.) I don't think it would be wise to go any faster. Prepare to spend some time retraining, too - you may want to start thinking of what material will be available to players so that you can have them do their tinkering by themselves while you aren't in session.
But, any way you do it, you should be firm with your friend that you won't be starting at level 10. Even if you get a group of wunderkinds who take to D&D perfectly, it will be a headache for you to get people up to speed at that level simply due to the volume of content available in the system. The game needs to be enjoyable to the DM, too. :D
~Joe

Umael
2009-08-08, 02:18 PM
I have an alternative suggestion.

Do both.

Tell your friend that he will be starting at high level while the rest of the players will be starting out at low level.

But there is a catch. Actually, several of them.

His character is dying, and WILL DIE before a few game sessions are over. Represent this decline in some fashion, such as a constantly dropping Constitution score. Every session, his character loses one point of Constitution, permanently. Furthermore, he cannot undo this damage. He can, for example, get an item that will INCREASE his Constitution, but he cannot UNDO the ongoing damage. Not even with a Wish or a Miracle.

(You could have the curse manifest in a different way altogether, such as if he is playing a Wizard, he loses spell levels. Or maybe he just loses levels, period. This could be bad or good, depending on how you play it. See below.)

Furthermore, his character is the ONLY high level character in the world - he IS a legend, the best, the greatest... the one thing holding back the BBEG. In fact, the curse that is slowly eating away his PC was a curse that the BBEG placed on him, before retreating away into its evil secret can't-be-scryed fortress. The good news is that the curse was pretty much a one-time deal, something that required a huge sacrifice on the part of the BBEG and can't be duplicated, possibly even something that weakened the BBEG and/or left it vulnerable (a side effect of the curse is that the BBEG is also supposed to be affected by it as well, but for some reason, somehow, the BBEG managed to stop it before it happened, yet the curse lingers, waiting for a change to pierce the BBEG's defenses and lay the BBEG low).

(You could expand the curse and say that it had affected the entire world, in a way, and that all of the powerful creatures had vanished or been greatly weakened. This would explain how a group of 1st level adventurers traveling across a plain could get ambushed by goblins, then when they cross the same plains at 4th level they get jumped by ogres, and then hill giants at 8th, and so on.)

So your friend gets to play a high-level character for a while, one who knows that the BBEG is going to come back to threaten the world and he is the only thing that was keeping it from happening... and he's dying. His task becomes to mentor the other PCs, train them, equipment them, prepare them to be ready to face the return of the BBEG.

I think at this point, you need to consider several different scenarios, based on what is happening to his PC, what happens to any items he might have or might create, and what he will be playing when this come to a point (I highly recommend you discuss the possibilities with your friend):

* Your friend's PC is dying (by the loss of Constitution). When he dies, all magic items, save a few you might consider invaluable to the party and/or plot-worthy, that he owned or created, disappear. Your friend starts anew with a new PC - at 1st level (an apprentice or son of his original PC, maybe?).

* As above, only the apprentice/son/whatever is the same level as the rest of the PCs.

* As either of the other above options, only the magic items remain. This will mean that you can have a 4th-level barbarian running around with a thundering greataxe +5 of flaming, which can be either incredibly cheesy or incredibly cool (mixing high level toys with low level characters). This could potentially unbalance the game as well... although if said 4th-level barbarian gets captured and loses it, or worse, an enemy gets ahold of that nifty little trinket...

* Instead of your friend's PC dying, he loses levels until he hits an equilibrium with the rest of the PCs. This represents the curse being some kind of fate unspinning, possibly with the magic items disappearing. It could even be that he ends up a level or two lower then the rest of the group before the "curse" ends (perhaps the BBEG didn't realize this would happen... or maybe the BBEG wanted to gloat). The added RP bonus to this is that you could have the BBEG distracted by having his forces go after the (now) weakest member of the party, intent on capturing and humiliating him... and letting the rest of the party shine as they come to his rescue.

* As above, only the curse of the "fate unspinning" means that your friend's PC will have to take a different course to prevent the curse from coming out of remission. For example, if your friend's PC was a 20th-level wizard who lost levels down to 2nd (while everyone else was 4th), then he would be playing a 2nd-level wizard... who could NEVER take wizard levels again.

Hope that helps some.