The Snarl's Planet (Unofficial Speculation Thread)

[kpenguin]

Hopefully we can keep the speculation to this thread. I doubt it, but its a hope.

Anyway, what does the planet within the rift within World 2.0 mean? Did the Snarl create its own planet? Is it a reconstruction of World 1.0? Does it have something to do with why the Snarl hasn't attacked through the rift?

Theories here!

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed it was World 1 and that it had just been transfered into the rift rather then being destroyed. Alternatively, it may have been destroyed and copied (based on Soon's wife and Kragor apparently being unrevivable, they may have been alive inside the rift).

[Jayngfet]

I agree with TF there, I'm saying it's world 1.0, or some incarnation of it, and everything "destroyed" is inside, including the gods perhaps? Who knows right now.

[kpenguin]

Hmmmm... if the slain gods of the east are also inside of World 1.0, is it possible that they are the only pantheon worshipped in the Snarl world? If not, perhaps the Snarl itself is treated as a god.

Also, within minutes of this thread, two other threads about the new world popped up. :smallsigh:

I knew my hopes would be dashed, but not so soon.

[Hatchet]

Well, thankfully it doesn't look like Earth. That would have been pretty cheesy.

[Turkish Delight]

Kraagor lives.

KRAAGOR LIVES.

I now feel it in the very marrow of my bones. Oh, yeah, we may not have gotten 'official' confirmation, but I think now the uncertainty about his fate is pointing decidely in one direction.

Kraagor lives!

God, I love being right.

[Icewalker]

This development has made me return to the OOTS section for the first time in so long. :smalleek:

And, there are already four speculation threads on it, so looks like not much has changed.

Anyways, my guess is that this implies one of two things:
1. There's some big secret or secrets which have been hidden from everyone, either by the old gatekeepers or even from them, and that the Snarl isn't who we think it is if it exists at all, etc etc.
2. The Snarl built the planet. This means either 1 is also true, or the Snarl has far greater motives than we understand just yet.
Possibility 3 is that while what we know is true, somehow the planet here is protected from the Snarl or some such. This seems unlikely. I also definitely don't believe that this is the old world unless my theory 1 is also true, as that doesn't make sense at all unless the Snarl is completely different from what everyone, in and out of the comic, understands.

[kpenguin]

Another thought: the size of the planet.

Is the area in which the Snarl imprisioned actually physically within the planet (taking the place of where the mantle and core would be in Earth and perhaps where the Underdark would be in a normal D&D session) or is it a dimension pocket sealed by the World 2.0?

If it is the former, than the new planet must be smaller than World 2.0. If it is the latter, than it can be any relation in size.

[Icewalker]

I would assume it is extra-dimensional and the planet is relatively the same size as the current one.

[Tempest Fennac]

It would be ironic if it turned out that The Snarl ended up changing World 1 so that it was a utopia where the gods didn't cause problems with their arguements. :smalltongue: I guess it could happen considering why The Snarl was created in the first place.

[lothos]

Options I'm going be be thinking about:
It's World 1.0, present "swallowed" by the Snarl, but not destroyed. The gods (or the Sapphire Guard) just assumed the Snarl destroyed it
It's World 1.0, re-created by the Snarl because it came to regret what it had done somehow
It's another world created by the Eastern Gods. They couldn't actually be killed, but were somehow swallowed by the Snarl, while World 1.0 was destroyed
The Snarl is DMing it's own D&D campaign and it's a recursive D&D campaign, like this attempt here (http://xkcd.com/244/) :-)

I'm really looking forward to the other speculation. Great way to leave the comic for a few weeks.

[Rad]

Ok, it looks like this is the thread that is getting the comments and, since it is going to stay on top, we might as well all move here... I know alost battle when I see one.
I repost what I posted in my old thread then:


So... we've seen it.
and we can't understand...
But we can try :smalltongue:

A couple of crazy theories:

It is world 1.0 The old world is not lost but merely got incorporated in the snarl. Maybe Soon's wife, the Dark One cleric and the chicken are all together with Lirian's lost bears and living happy in the old world?
Not world 1.0 but close: maybe the gods of the East are inside the snarl's prison and managed to untangle the threads of reality that it is made of and made a new world? Only now this world is trapped in world 2.0
it is just a second world! Why do you think this was world 2.0? The gods just created two (or more) planets, one "within" the other, as an extra safety measure. This is also why they have not acted to seal the rifts yet.

I have a lot of observations on my own hypotheses so far... and have arguments against all of them, but maybe they can inspire somebody with coming up with something better...
Discuss!

PS: Ah, the thrill of groundless speculation!

[kpenguin]

Another theory: What if the planet is the Snarl? After all, both Worlds are made out of threads and the Snarl is made out of tangled threads. Would it be possible for the Snarl to organize and untangle its threads to transform into a planet.

Oh my god... the Snarl is Unicron!:smalltongue:

[Lkctgo]

hmm.. Interesting.

[lonewolf23k]

I'm leaning towards "World 1.0" myself.

[Mining monk]

This seems rather like the Rift War saga.


In this novel the rift between two worlds attracts the attention of the enemy (something capable of *cough* destroying the universe). Else the polts are nothing alike.

[Lkctgo]

There's another thread that talks about the same topic. Isn't it a rule to merge it?

[Rad]

Just a piece of data... I took the time to go back to the paels where we saw world 1.0 in the crayons of time arc. They aren't the same as the world in the rift.
This does not mean anything since in any case we only see one side of the planet but more importantly it looks like Rich himself is not really paying much attention at consistency on these details.
Much more important, in the tale from Shojo we see the snarl actually crumpling the old world. One could say that that is not conclusive and it only represents what Shojo knows (or wants to say) but I have to say that I am convinced that world 1.0 WAS destroyed and what we saw in 672 is something else.

[Rad]

There's another thread that talks about the same topic. Isn't it a rule to merge it?

I see two slightly different threads (something like "what use is the other wold" and "is the other world Earth?") and another really twin thread (mine) with 0 replies... It looks like we are all nice and merged here :smallsmile:

[Tempest Fennac]

There is a possibility that the surviving gods saw the world being crumpled up when the Snarl consumed it (it could also have been reformed as it was initially).

[kpenguin]

I think all of those fall under the broad umbrella of speculation, though. I might be biased, being the OP of this thread.

In regards to the theory that the new world is Earth, one would assume that if that were so the continents would be the same as Earth's... unless it were a prehistoric Earth, in which case the continents would be different than modern day.

Is there a geological history expert here to tell us if the planet matches the map of the Earth at any period in its history?

[Sotris]

I think all of those fall under the broad umbrella of speculation, though. I might be biased, being the OP of this thread.

In regards to the theory that the new world is Earth, one would assume that if that were so the continents would be the same as Earth's... unless it were a prehistoric Earth, in which case the continents would be different than modern day.

Is there a geological history expert here to tell us if the planet matches the map of the Earth at any period in its history?From the little we can see, I don't think that the continents seem similar to most times in Earth's history (unless they represent a time before Pangaea, for which the shapes of the continents are more or less a guess).

But another interesting thing is that the the polar ice caps of the planet seem quite extended: The northern one (if that's the North, of course) seems to cover about 3/4 of the hemisphere, and the southern one is not small, either.
I wonder if that has any significance for the story, or if it's just for artistic variety...


Unless:

Those white parts aren't ice caps at all, but parts of the planet that are as yet unformed! Perhaps the planet is in the making, and perhaps every rift that opens is responsible for completing another part of it. (End wild speculation)

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd never considered that, Sotris (I assumed those were just clouds).

[Ancalagon]

I guess I also copy stuff over from the other thread:

I like the idea it's recursion: You see THE world 2.0 through The Snarl. Lots of complications, as The Snarl would then also be outside of the real world, as it is inside of him, that way, the gods and everything would also be inside the snarl, as they are outside.

What happens if you open the rifts in that case is a VERY interesting question.

All in all, I think that here (the other-than-expected-nature of the Snarl) basically kills the plans of "The Dark One".

[Sotris]

I'd never considered that, Sotris (I assumed those were just clouds).I thought so too at first, but then I noticed you can also see the clouds around the planet.

[TheBibliophile]

Awright, people, here's my theory. (My dad's American, sue me.)

The world in the snarl is another webcomic world. I'm hopin' it's the world of Antihero for Hire, that would be awesome. That world contains some way to get to the next webcomic world. All of the webcomic worlds are linked in some way, and the heroes of each world all travel to OOTSverse, the central world, to battle all of the villains, who have also travelled there at Xykon's invitation. Elan realises that in the interests of drama, each of the heroes cannot ever defeat their own baddie, so they fight each others' baddies instead. The comic ends for good with a massive showdown all over OOTSverse.

Of course, this would need a heck of a lot of permission from all of the authors.

[Z-dan]

My personal thoughts on first seeing it, were that its Order from Chaos... much like Langton's Ant (see here (http://www.annanardella.it/ant.html) for details)

The theory is that no matter how chaotic it looks, it will eventually find order before returning to chaos and so on in a neverending cycle. Another way of thinking of it is that all the threads are elements, and with them all moving around each other in the being that is the Snarl it creates compounds which cant be undone- like if you have lots of oxygen and carbon whizzing around you'll end up with carbon dioxide.

My science is probably completely wrong, but I hope it works as a suitable metaphor :smalltongue:

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm reminded of V'Ger from Star Trek I: Anything it "destroyed" was actually stored deep inside it. Could we be dealing with something similar here?

[Ancalagon]

As much as I like the recursion-thing, I agree that it's probable the world there was formed out of the original snarl.

The snarl, after all, was made of Strains of Creation, they just were... snarly and chaotic. Given time, the chaos may diminish and the Strains of Creation order themselves. As they were supposed to be a planet, it is not unlikely they take the form of a planet.

Just imagine a new solar system that gets born: First it's only a mass of hot gas, pure choas. As things cool down over time, mass collects in centers of gravity, you get some hot ball (a sun) with other hot balls circling around it (planets) and as the planets cool more and more, life can start.
I think something similar is happening here: The snarl, made of godly-creation, turns itself into what it was meant to be from the beginning... a planet. As it is in it's own "dimension" or "plane" it does not even have to "inside" the real world or "smaller" or "bigger".

[OITS]

My first thought was that maybe the world, they now live in needn't be the "real" world. Maybe the OotS, the Azurites, everybody on this planet is also trapped in a cage, which is just another "world-layer", put around them. (just as the end of the second 'Men in Black'-movie)
Maybe it doesn't matter what the world inside means, but where they really are.
This theory is rather strange and I have no idea, why this were my first thoughts but I wanted to share them^^

[Rad]

Rich mentioned (I think in one of the books) that he considered the gods' arguments and the creation of the Snarl as a metaphor of arguments that arise in an RPG group when people fail to agree on the world they are envisioning. I really liked this view and would like it to be preserved in the new plot uncoverings, so...

will Rich preserve it? Maybe he will just drop the idea as it is not as crucial as the other developments of the story are.
If this metaphor IS preserved... how does that cast light on the nature of the "inner world"?

[Trixie]

Visual data:

World 1.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)
World 1.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)
World 1.x? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)
World 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)
World 2.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Conclusion - the World 1.0 doesn't resemble the planet within the Snarl. But then, there is something weird here - World 2.0 doesn't resemble the planet that Familicide was cast on - in fact, the world on which V casts her Epic Spells looks almost exactly like World 1.0 (!) :smallamused:

Maybe it's the other way around, and they are in imperfect, flawed world within the Snarl, and the portal actually leads to superior World 2.0? Maybe the Greek pantheon are actually the only gods alive, the other three pantheons dead, paving the way to creation of perfect World 2.0, as there was no opposing pantheons anymore, while the souls of dead people and gods formed semblance of life on planet within the Snarl? :smallamused:

That would mean Kraagor and Soon's wife were actually dragged to a better place, and are unvilling/incapable of leaving it.

Note that the portal is in midair, not in the ground, indicating, if anything, that this planed is actually on the "outside", not on the "inside". :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

I think he moved beyond that.

The Snarl first was actually just pure chaos and destruction (and thus the mentioned argument), but then became more. Or, you could say, that the snarl now is the players who again agreed to give their group another chance, and from the experience they made, from those arguments, a new, working "world" came to be.

So we have to possible approaches here if a "world got unmade due to player-arguments":
First: start over, as the gods did.
Second: give it another try with the same group and go on, try to make the best of the old world and maybe it becomes something.

The metaphor can survive in both cases.

[nysisobli]

"belkar is not long for this world!"

[Cracklord]

"belkar is not long for this world!"

Yes, he is going to draw his last breath, ever, before the end of the year.
And savor his next birthday cake.
And not fund his IRA.

Maybe there isn't air on the Snarl's world, so Belkar won't breathe there! Wait...

[TheBibliophile]

"belkar is not long for this world!"

Hey, nice theory. Still like mine better though, for the sheer awesomeness of Shadehawk in OOTS-style.

[Kaihaku]

Well, thankfully it doesn't look like Earth. That would have been pretty cheesy.

That was my first thought too, then I breathed a sigh of relief. Whew.

[Qubanz]

My guess is that the story about the Snarl was just the Azurites understanding of what happened, and they may be off the mark.

I think in the long run we'll learn what the planet is all about (World 1.0 stuck in World 1.1 makes the most sense to me though.) But I think the Azurites either had only a partial understanding or where just plain wrong about a lot that happened.

[Squark]

Personally, this makes me wonder if the Snarl exists at all...


After all, the only thing we've actually seen be destroyed by the rift is Xykon,* and maybe this was sort of pheltobium** thing.









*Everything else is (technically) hearsay from people who write exposition with crayons.

**See tvtropes.

[Asgardian]

Ummm...

Why does everyone seem to think the planet is "within" the Snarl? The view was through a rift in the Snarl's prison, not into the Snarl itself

Considering that the gods did this

. They created the new world in exactly the same dimensional space as the Snarl, shunting it into a demiplane from which it could not destroy the world.

Wouldn't it make sense to assume that the Snarl IS world 1.0 and would be have to be EXACTLY planet sized and thats what you are seeing?

[Tempest Fennac]

Squark, Xykon was destroyed by the wards which stopped evil people from touching the Gate rather then the rift itself.

[Joerg]

I personally like the thought that there is no Snarl. That's just the cover story for the gods who for some reason needed a new world. Perhaps there was a war between them and the Greek gods.

If the snarl was the planet seen through the rift, that doesn't explain why it doesn't kill any more. And if there is no snarl any more, that begs the question why there still was a snarl a few years ago.

I further like to speculate that either Xykon and Redcloak or the IFCC will succeed at the last gate, warp it and transfer it to the gods, who will then be forced to admit their lies.

[MReav]

I think it's a trap made by the Snarl. The Snarl was stated to be intelligent, and it's a god-level entity. I think the Snarl created an illusion to sucker in creatures to enter the rift. Meaning the Snarl has evolved.

[Asgardian]

If the snarl was the planet seen through the rift, that doesn't explain why it doesn't kill any more.

Maybe, as V indicated, the story of the Snarl isnt exactly what we think

heres a possibility.. The gods are bickering and dont notice the world they are creating became intelligent. Frustrated with their indecision and the mistakes it thinks they are making, the world strikes out.

If memory servers, it kills Ares and Aphrodite first. So we could be be looking at a world without war(anger?) or love because of the complications they bring and creates a peaceful if boring existence for its inhabitants

having lost control of their creation, the remain gods banish Snarl planet and the story is created to cover up the fact that there is another planet out there that some people may prefer

[Knaight]

Ares and Apollo actually.

[DraxtonSmitz]

So simple now. The Rifts are actually breaks in the 4th wall. It may not be Earth but the people playing the OOTS characters are on that planet! With weird green Doritos and probably multicolored Mountain Dew GALORE!

It's a glorious world where football players are beaten up and and nerds rule the hierarchy with an iron retainer. So what if it rusts I say!

Or you know... that whole world 1.0 theory and the stories of the snarl are kind of exaggerations where it didn't destroy everything, just kinda swallowed it whole.

[Ubergeek]

I support the theory that there is no snarl.

I mean, I'd like to point out a minor plot inconsistancy. If the gods decided never to tell anyone about the snarl, how did the Order of the Scribble find out the truth.

Now sure, there's a lot of good reasonable answers to the question. (An oracle, a priest, maybe the gods themselves came down and told them.) All I'm saying is that it's very possible the Sapphire Guard may be wrong.

In fact, not counting the Order of the Scribble, we have never actually seen anybody get killed from the rifts, nor has the snarl made an appearance. Redcloak actually mentioned this himself once here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

Somehow, I get the feeling the Dark One is going to be important in all of this.


Also, about the theory of it being Earth? I always believe that any idea, even a really cliched one, can be made into a good story if done correctly. We've all seen what Rich Berlew is capable of.

Now, I still don't think it's a good story idea, and I doubt that Rich would do something so obvious. But if Rich does decide to go all Fullmetal Alchemist on us, I have faith he'll find a way to make it good.

[kpenguin]

Errr... what about the chicken-holding goblin priest? We see the Snarl devour him and his chicken.

[Mc. Lovin']

Unless:

Those white parts aren't ice caps at all, but parts of the planet that are as yet unformed! Perhaps the planet is in the making, and perhaps every rift that opens is responsible for completing another part of it. (End wild speculation)

Can't be, look at this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), the clouds / ice caps / whatever are on the Order's world as well

[SteveDJ]

Just a quick theory of my own...

What if this world is really 4.0 -- that is, they've been upgraded to the latest version! :smallbiggrin:

Didn't Rich once say he was NOT going to upgrade OOTS? Well, here would be a chance to have some jokes specifically about 4.0, and then return to our good ol' 3.5-based OOTS.

[horus42]

Ok, so here's my theory: Maybe there never was a snarl. Maybe the gods of the West, North, and South killed the gods of the East, and bound them to the dimension now accessed through the rifts. Then, they made up the story about the snarl, going so far as to unmake people to keep their cover story.

In the meantime, the gods of the east somehow come back to life (maybe gods can't die permanently in this world.) and create a new planet within their new dimension.

Redcloak knows this, and his plan is actually to blackmail the gods, not with destruction, but by exposing their lies.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe it's the other way around, and they are in imperfect, flawed world within the Snarl, and the portal actually leads to superior World 2.0? Maybe the Greek pantheon are actually the only gods alive, the other three pantheons dead, paving the way to creation of perfect World 2.0, as there was no opposing pantheons anymore, while the souls of dead people and gods formed semblance of life on planet within the Snarl? :smallamused:

I like this idea. However, ignoring any kind of memory-erasing plot device, wouldn't the OotS world's ancestors know of and pass down stories of the Snarl? I suppose the Snarl consuming the world may have been too fast for mortals to notice (and the people running in terror may have been for artistic purposes), but that would still leave the problem of the Eastern gods. (Unless, again, there is some kind of memory-related thing going on.)

[Ted The Bug]

My theory is this:
The snarl is creating a world. Think of it. The snarl hasn't attacked anything, even when it could, and that certainly doesn't suggest a chaotic monster. Perhaps over time, the nature of the snarl has changed, and it wishes to create a planet where it has greater power.

[pita]

My theory is this:
The snarl is creating a world. Think of it. The snarl hasn't attacked anything, even when it could, and that certainly doesn't suggest a chaotic monster. Perhaps over time, the nature of the snarl has changed, and it wishes to create a planet where it has greater power.

I think that, in its captivity with the gates giving it a glimpse of life, the Snarl has changed, and now creates rather than destroy.
And maybe it's created a world of 4.0.

[Athelian]

Snarl became the planet, perhaps?

[Guru_jake]

I think that, in its captivity with the gates giving it a glimpse of life, the Snarl has changed, and now creates rather than destroy.
And maybe it's created a world of 4.0.
Or, perhaps the gates that Soon's party put onto the rifts changed it's nature?
The question would then be: Would destroying the gates change it back, or would it retain it's new nature?

[Jaysyn]

I sure hope it's not 4th Edition! :D

/joke, I know Rich said OotS was staying 3rd Ed.

[multilis]

The Truth about Snarl

The gods bickered. Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. Snarl is love and peace, not silly endless war.

The gods became jealous as their worshippers left them for the love of Snarl. They tried to destroy him. They failed.

The gods then put up an "iron curtain" to keep their worshippers from leaving them for Snarl. They spread lies about him.

When tears formed in the curtain, they threatened to destroy everything unless these were sealed. So reluctantly the mortals complied and allowed the evil slander of Snarl to take root.

But the prophets of Snarl still know the truth and invite you to go through the rift and see the beauty and peace of the other side, a world not based on war and XP for killing but on love and XP for caring with elves, goblins and humans living together in peace. Make love, not war. Join us. Help others to get through the rift.

The gods lie, they can't really destroy you, only your hate will rot you from within. Trust Snarl and his wise prophets and escape to the good life!

Join us.

*This pamphlet was printed by the Church of Snarl

[redcodekevin]

How about this? it's a shell game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) all over again. Some of the "rifts" actually lead to completely different worlds, because the gods didn't create only one world. But ONE of them, and only one (and oh plot-device, mayhaps the last we will ever see) is the one that actually contains the Snarl into nonexistence.

[TheBibliophile]

Nice idea, but sorry, I'm agnostic.

EDIT: Darn ninja! I was actually replying to multilis.

[Ragn Charran]

The Truth about Snarl

The gods bickered. Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. Snarl is love and peace, not silly endless war.

The gods became jealous as their worshippers left them for the love of Snarl. They tried to destroy him. They failed.

The gods then put up an "iron curtain" to keep their worshippers from leaving them for Snarl. They spread lies about him.

When tears formed in the curtain, they threatened to destroy everything unless these were sealed. So reluctantly the mortals complied and allowed the evil slander of Snarl to take root.

But the prophets of Snarl still know the truth and invite you to go through the rift and see the beauty and peace of the other side, a world not based on war and XP for killing but on love and XP for caring with elves, goblins and humans living together in peace. Make love, not war. Join us. Help others to get through the rift.

The gods lie, they can't really destroy you, only your hate will rot you from within. Trust Snarl and his wise prophets and escape to the good life!

Join us.

*This pamphlet was printed by the Church of Snarl

Well, the snarl does look an awful lot like FSM...

[Porthos]

You know, I've been saying for a loooooooong time that all of us should be a tad suspicious of anything not told via Third Person Omniscient Narration in this comic.

Nice to see my natural cynicism pay off. :smallamused:

OK, my comments were in regards to the gods created "monster NPC" races solely for the purposes of XP line being taken as gospel.

But hey, if the Crayons of Time can be wrong about the nature of The Snarl, then who says they can't be wrong about practically everything else? :smalltongue:

Anyway one thing that I found interesting is the size of the Polar Ice cap in (supposed) World 1.0. Man, that's one cold world there. :smallwink:

[roy_greenhilt]

This might seem a bit far-fetched, but what if the Snarl was mis-understood and is actually good? Like, what if the Snarl knows of a certain event that will wipe out the current planet, and is creating a new one as a replacement! And what if the Snarl made the rips in the fabric of space as portals to enter the new world?

[Berserk Monk]

If this is some sport of plot twist and the rip is just a passage to another universe (a "gate"-way to another universe) and our world is that world or it's the earth of some other story I'm gonna be really mad.

[hamishspence]

concerning the "giant ice cap" you can see coloured ground underneath it- doesn't that suggest its clouds, not ice?

[Robz_defheadz]

Could it be a complex lock of some kind?

For example the gods created the rift planet as just one "tumbler" of a greater lock. This makes some sense as it would be wise to have some kind of backup. However it falls down when you consider that the snarl was active in world 2.0.

How about another thoery then. That is world 2.0. Viewed from the depths of space by the Snarl?

[Porthos]

concerning the "giant ice cap" you can see coloured ground underneath it- doesn't that suggest its clouds, not ice?

If you compare it to the only reference shot we have of World 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), what I presume is an ice cap in Snarl!World is almost identical in presentation to the Ice Cap seen in OotS!World.

So, for now, I'm going with the Ice Cap theory. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

They're very thin ice caps, then :smallamused:

Still, maybe ice caps do look translucent in OOTSland.

[TheBST]

If this inner-world is the Snarl's prison, then the white sections represent parts of this inner-world the snarl has conquered because some of the gates have been destroyed. 3 out of the 5 gates in OoTS-world have been destroyed, and in this comic about 3/5ths of Snarl-World is a white, lifeless wasteland. Surely not a coincidence.

[Porthos]

They're very thin ice caps, then :smallamused:

Still, maybe ice caps do look translucent in OOTSland.

Nah. Rich is just taking pity on Cartography Obseessives and engaging in a little Artistic License to allow them to see where the various continents are and what they are shaped like. :smalltongue:

[Vmag]

With multiple threads on the subject, might as well keep my bases covered. As I had mentioned in a similar thread...

My thoughts is that the world within the Snarl IS the OotS world.

How this works, you ask? Well, the Snarl is intertwined with all reality, yes? Ergo, the very world itself is within the Snarl. If you think about this too hard, you end up having infinite Snarls within infinite Worlds within infinite Snarls; if you're happy not thinking too deep into things, it's like putting a couple mirrors in front of each other.

I think the implications here is that the OotS world is intimately dependent upon the Snarl; destroying the Snarl could end up with negative consequences for the World, as the Snarl is so intertwined so as to actually be one of the very forces involved in keeping the World together.


I'm surprised that the bulk of the speculation sees it as an entirely different world. I recall that worlds tend to be somewhat spherical... Entirely possible we're seeing a side of the globe we're not familiar with?

NAW, that's crazy.

[HandofShadows]

I think there are a number of possibilities. This is a new world created by Snarl. Snarl IS the planet changed itself into the planet. Something/someone unsnarled Snarl and created the planet. Snarls prison is no longer accessable through the Gates (IE that's a different dimension), Snarl's Prison was moved and the Gods didn't tell anyone (I wonder why? :smallbiggrin: ). There never was a Snarl (or it's long gone) and the Gates are a distraction to keep evil busy.

[ericgrau]

I just assumed that it is World 1.0, under constant attack by the Snarl. The gods know this but had no choice but to abandon World 1.0. Thus World 1.0 is a horrible place to live, with random death and destruction all the time as the Snarl rampages about. Those thrown into rifts are indeed unmade, if the Snarl is around. What determines if he is or isn't I dunno. I foresee a plot where OotS have to come to terms with sealing away an entire world to their doom... or finding another way.

[Hobbes13]

The Snarl is a being of pure chaos. We know this.

In the world of OotS, where everything is created by Gods, everything from combat to language is determined by intricate rules which we call DnD. They live in a world that is inherently ordered, with no chaos in it.

The Snarl was created when the rules the Gods made for world 1.0 didn't work. The "threads" got tangled. Things no longer were governed by specific rules. The threads of life were cut free to do anything, they became chaotic, they became the Snarl.

Inside that portal is a universe of chaos, filled with all the basic building blocks needed for creation: the threads of life. And from that chaos, a planet was formed.
If you believe in quantum theory, our world is said to be formed in much the same way. From randomness breeds order, breeds variety, breeds life.
I think the world within the Snarl is a world very similar to ours, with rules that grew from the chaos and led to planet formation, and eventually life. It is a world without Gods, or at any rate - without a pantheon of omnipotent beings capable of shaping the world. It's a world much like Earth.

Inside the Snarl is a universe of inherent chaos. Outside is a world of order. What happens when they meet?

I think this fits the epic scale that we've seen Rich reach for before (e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), as well as encompass the big differences between the DnD universe and real life. In this way, this is a story that could never be told using only the DnD rules, and is perfect for Rich's webcomic medium. As someone said in this thread, the Snarl is the 4th wall - and who better to break it than Rich?
I look forward to a clash between the rules of the "real world" and the DnD world, and the many metaphysical and entertaining questions it generates. :smallbiggrin:

At any rate, this is truly an epic twist. Whatever Rich does with it - I am glued to the screen. Thank you for this amazing comic!

[Pronounceable]

Itty bitty nitpicky: Only evidence we have of the Greek Pantheon ever having existed at all is from the same source that claims Snarl is a mindless destroyer.

[David Argall]

Visual data:

World 1.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)
World 1.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)
World 1.x? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)
World 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)
World 2.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Conclusion - the World 1.0 doesn't resemble the planet within the Snarl. But then, there is something weird here - World 2.0 doesn't resemble the planet that Familicide was cast on - in fact, the world on which V casts her Epic Spells looks almost exactly like World 1.0 (!) :smallamused:

The likely conclusion here is that stick art is not made for geography, and our artist is not interested in such details. We should not depend at all seriously on any of these pictures.

Now the pictures do look to be clear enough to tell us this is not Earth we are looking at, and that there is a very large amount of ice [idea? Dwarves are associated with cold in OOTS and we know of a dwarf ending up in the rift.] But beyond that, we are just guessing.

[Morty]

The theory that it's World 1.0 is, I think the most plausible of all. It has been estabilished that The Snarl "consumes" souls, so it might be so that it recreates the people it devours within itself, and that it recreated the first world of the gods, as well as the Gods of The East, within itself as well. And it doesn't even take any intentional misleading on gods' part for everyone thinking it destroys people - they have no way of knowing the thruth.
Of course, when I say that it has some merit, it doesn't mean that it's true - the most likely option is that the thruth is something we haven't considered yet.

[quick_comment]

Its turtles all the way down.

[Gamerlord]

I think it IS the snarl, who simply put itself into a deep slumber and transformed into a planet.

[David Argall]

Now we need to keep in mind that the Snarl was active about 1500 years ago and about 50. It's kinda strange that it has suddenly changed.

Looking at the cloud pattern, we see vaguely a circle, but such circles are caused by the motion of the planet, and the same motion causes the poles to be the icy areas. So we have something odd there. The ice seems to be at the equator, but only in part of it.
The most likely explanation is art error, but that means we shouldn't trust anything we see all that much. So we have to wait for September, and likely into next year.

[Xorbon]

(Before I go ahead and read this entire thread, and have my ideas influenced by other ideas...)

My theory is that the rifts are gateways to one or more other realities. And I don't mean just parallel universes (Prime Material planes). I mean separate entire realities. So you wouldn't just have a parallel Prime Material planes, but parallel Ethereal, Astral, Outer, and Inner planes; each one having its own pantheon(s) of gods, etc.

Additionally, it's possible the "Snarl" is a fabrication meant to scare people from entering/investigating the rifts, similar to how stories of a "bogeyman" can be used to make children behave.

[Thanatosia]

Now we need to keep in mind that the Snarl was active about 1500 years ago and about 50. It's kinda strange that it has suddenly changed.
This.

Whatever changed between the Snarl being a rapid world-slaying abomination and being quiescent happened sometime very very recently. Even as short a time as a couple generations ago, the Snarl was willing to reach a claw through the rift to impale Soon's Wife. Now the Snarl is not reaching through the Rifts, so something changed between the Rifts being discovered and now that changed the Snarls Behavior.

I don't think it's Kraagor's Sacrifice, because he was just one of many many victems of the Snarl, if one man could change the snarl from direct content, it would have been done already. My bet is that the Gates themselves somehow changed the Snarl.


Additionally, it's possible the "Snarl" is a fabrication meant to scare people from entering/investigating the rifts, similar to how stories of a "bogeyman" can be used to make children behave.
Then what was the claw that killed Soon's Wife? Soon had first hand experience with the Snarl, and as a Paladin I doubt he lied. Perhaps Shojo lied about what Soon saw, but I think thats stretching things a bit, considering Soon was still behaving in a consistant fassion with the story-plot as presented even after his death as a ghost.




IMO the big problem is we are relying on the Crayons of Time Exposition for the Snarl's Backstory, and the Comic never adressed where Shojo's information on the Snarl came from. I'm willing to accept as fact on Soon's honor anything in the Crayons of Time that Soon was there to observe, but the Snarl background is not something Soon could have learned himself.

[Tiki Snakes]

the snarl is an intelligent jangle of the threads of reality itself. As the Gods bickered, it grew to intelligence, and learned to hate.

Two points;
1- The Snarl is made from the threads of reality itself. It seems quite plausible that the snarl is, infact, and has been a planet all along. it is the world itself.
2 - What did the Snarl grow to Hate? The Snarl grew to hate the Gods. Perhaps it did tear down the world they built, as they fled. Perhaps not. Either way, it attacked THEM first. From the Gods point of view, it's definately Evil. Doesn't mean it necessarily is.

So, depending on the interplay of those two points, the theory I'll be espousing tonight goes as follows;

The Gods built a World, but they squabbled, tugging and tearing till the fabric they made it from grew tangled. The tangled essence of the World grew to become aware. It watched, and grew to hate it's creators for their neglect and their incompetance. Young and chaotic of nature, it struck out. It did not succeed in killing them all, but did drive them off. They imprisoned it, limiting it's power, but also leaving it free of their squabbling, petty, hateful influence.

Then they left it totally alone for an immense period of time. In the intervening time, the snarl grew in maturity, if not in power. The World reformed itself to its own, singular design, and simply let things unfold naturally and without meddling as is befitting a chaotic entity.

50 years ago, tears in it's little reality opened. Fearing the return of it's ancient enemies, it lashed out, attacking whatever it found on the outside of the holes.

Perhaps as the gates were built, and the rifts sealed, it came to realise that this wasn't a concerted attack on it, and it's own creation.

This time, the Snarl, world 1.5, is not so reactive. Perhaps its power and sentience have waned as the world it has created matures.

What lies inside the prison is a double abomination in the eyes of the remaining pantheons. The Snarl itself is, technically, a God Killing Abomination. But the world that is the Snarl is also an Abomination, because it is free of Godly guidance.



Or, perhaps instead, it's just World 1.0 intact, and the defining characteristic is that it runs under first ed rules. :)

[Adeptus]

V said it all. They don't know all they should about the quest. So far they've accepted all they've heard about the Snarl and the rifts as true. They've seen very little first hand.

[Erothayce]

Am I the only one who saw that and thought of Farscape? Because if so I feel pretty damn nerdy right now.

[Rad]

the snarl is an intelligent jangle of the threads of reality itself. As the Gods bickered, it grew to intelligence, and learned to hate.

Two points;
1- The Snarl is made from the threads of reality itself. It seems quite plausible that the snarl is, infact, and has been a planet all along. it is the world itself.
2 - What did the Snarl grow to Hate? The Snarl grew to hate the Gods. Perhaps it did tear down the world they built, as they fled. Perhaps not. Either way, it attacked THEM first. From the Gods point of view, it's definately Evil. Doesn't mean it necessarily is.

So, depending on the interplay of those two points, the theory I'll be espousing tonight goes as follows;

The Gods built a World, but they squabbled, tugging and tearing till the fabric they made it from grew tangled. The tangled essence of the World grew to become aware. It watched, and grew to hate it's creators for their neglect and their incompetance. Young and chaotic of nature, it struck out. It did not succeed in killing them all, but did drive them off. They imprisoned it, limiting it's power, but also leaving it free of their squabbling, petty, hateful influence.

Then they left it totally alone for an immense period of time. In the intervening time, the snarl grew in maturity, if not in power. The World reformed itself to its own, singular design, and simply let things unfold naturally and without meddling as is befitting a chaotic entity.

50 years ago, tears in it's little reality opened. Fearing the return of it's ancient enemies, it lashed out, attacking whatever it found on the outside of the holes.

Perhaps as the gates were built, and the rifts sealed, it came to realise that this wasn't a concerted attack on it, and it's own creation.

This time, the Snarl, world 1.5, is not so reactive. Perhaps its power and sentience have waned as the world it has created matures.

What lies inside the prison is a double abomination in the eyes of the remaining pantheons. The Snarl itself is, technically, a God Killing Abomination. But the world that is the Snarl is also an Abomination, because it is free of Godly guidance.



Or, perhaps instead, it's just World 1.0 intact, and the defining characteristic is that it runs under first ed rules. :)

This is the first theory I see that fits with everything... congratulations!

By the way, seeing all the comments on "the gods lied! The snarl is good!" I cannot help to think that, after all, the Holey Brotherhood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) could recruit members with some ease after all. This is interesting because until testerday everybody thought they were a bunch of nuts and now there's people saying tha they were actually right! :smallsmile:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Maybe it's made up of stuff the snarl unmade.

[Conuly]

So what's the point of the planet? I know this is all meta-storying but while we're talking about what the planet IS all *I* want to know is how it's going to affect the story.

Are people going to have crises of conscience about it? Is it going to end up destroyed? Maybe people can go there (there's Redcloak's solution to his own personal human problem - move the goblins or the humans over)? Is V going to end up researching this? V's right - they don't know enough about their quest, that's for sure.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

<snip>Gospel of the Snarl<snip>
The gods lie! Only The Snarl can save us! I believe! I believe!

[Moriarty]

i'm pretty sure rich is celebrating an evil laugh about all those topics about snarl-world 1.0.

[Volkov]

The planet is fairly clearly in an ice age, as large portions of it are covered in ice.

[Watcher]

If memory servers, it kills Ares and Aphrodite first. So we could be be looking at a world without war(anger?) or love because of the complications they bring and creates a peaceful if boring existence for its inhabitants


Ares and Apollo actually.

Apollo is the god of sunlight/sun and music (I think. They keep changing it.)
That could be why it's got a lot of ice on it, if this is the way to go.

[Elan's Modron]

Why has no one made the following obvious conclusion?
The world inside the Rift is BANJO'S world.
(Or Banjhulu's.)


(woot! not-first page, but yay- my first post ever! feel free to mail me cake...

OOTS makes me sooooooooooo happy)

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

I know! The world OOTS is on is the world swallowed by the Snarl! And the gods that we thought were killed by the Snarl, were actually the only survivors, and that the OOTS's world's god's were actually the ones slain! (except not slain, swallode)

[jayeljay]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but, in total, we have seen 3 images of planets in the entire story thusfar.

1. The crayon story of the secret history of the Saphire Guard. This planet is one created first, and destroyed by the snarl. OotS #273 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)

2. The second time a planet is shown, is when V uses Familicide, to destroy a large amount of the black dragon population. OotS #639 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

3. Finally, we see a planet in the newest strip, the one seen by Blackwing on the other side of the rift. OotS #672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

If you look at all 3 of the shown planets, the First World undone by the snarl, and the image seen of OotS-world when V uses familicide are very similar in landmass layout, while the one seen inside the rift by Blackwing is entirely different.

If this means ANYTHING I have no idea. I don't try to understand what the facts mean, I simply try to pull them together. ^_^

[Joerg]

The planet is fairly clearly in an ice age, as large portions of it are covered in ice.

Could it be that the white transparent thing is not ice, but clouds? After all, with an earth-like planet, large portions should be covered with clouds.

[Ganurath]

My hypothesis:The OotSverse is made of worldthreads in balance. The Snarl is/was made of worldthreads without balance, suffering from internal conflict. Wanting to cease its pain, the Snarl attempted to eliminate the sources of conflict: Superfluous pantheons. The eastern pantheon was consumed first, possibly by chance, possibly because all the other pantheons agreed that a nonsapient animal breeding with a humanoid without racial HD shouldn't produce a CR 4 monstruous humanoid.

After being sealed away, the Snarl had no means to balance itself, it needed at least some gods to remain to bring balance to it. So, it took the remnants of the consumed pantheon and created a patchwork god: Cronus. Cronus had a world's worth of thread to work with in the Snarl, and created titans to aid him in shaping it. Due to being a meer demiplane of its own, it would be forced to use a combination of the Ghostwalk rules and reincarnation to handle the afterlife system.

There were leftover pieces, which the titans could use as weapons to fend off the other pantheons: They may seek to undo the balance of Ur's private realm. Heck, even their attempt at a balanced world was falling apart at the seams. When not used as weapons, the worldthreads could be taken from or added to in order to balance the reincarnation pattern of the demiplane.

The Outer Gods, knowing of Ur's domain, decided to hide its existence from the Outer World. Ur created a world of perfect harmony and balance, where the people could level solely on roleplaying XP, and if the mortals could reveal this the gods would lose their following to... an undead hodgepodge.

So, they lied. They lied to their followers, to the Elven Pantheon, to The Dark One, to everyone they had to so they could turn their world against the (untangled) Snarl.

Like all their creations, though, their web of lies has begun to unravel...

[Watcher]

Why is he never called Kronos?

Off Topic: Why do YOU people call it Duck Duck Goose?!?! It's DUCK DUCK GREY DUCK!

[Conuly]

Why is he never called Kronos?

Off Topic: Why do YOU people call it Duck Duck Goose?!?! It's DUCK DUCK GREY DUCK!

Because we're not from Minnesota...? In language, correct is generally defined by the majority, so unless you're in Minnesota you should do as the Romans do. (Funnily enough, Beverly Cleary calls it Duck Duck Gray Duck too. Ramona Quimby plays it, in Washington State, in Kindergarten. WEIRD.)

[Kaurne]

The point about the ice age is important, but i would like to point out something.

In the most recent ice ages, then Ice covered northern parts of Eurasia and north America, but not the southern parts of south america, australia or africa. this is because of the lack of land near the south pole (antartica excluded) compared with the north pole. Yet here, we can clearly see that rich has drawn a very small (relatively) ice cap at the south pole, despite there being large amounts of land there.

So either Rich does not know much about climatology, and simply used what he knew about the previous ice agers in history (that the northern cap was much bigger than the southern one), which ios reasonable because he does not need to be a genius at climatology in the webcomics, or Rich deliberately drew it like that because something (or someone) is causing a huge polar ice cap.

Another thing to note is Rich's use of dark greens in the map to represent forests, where if there really was such a climate , then the huge buildups of H2O in the Ice would make most of the planet that is not an ice field a desert, and there certainly would not be large forests. Read my previous explanations for the explanations here.

As for the comment about the world inside Shojo's explanation not being the same, that bears incredible similarity to what the current world looks like, as revealed in #639. Perhaps shojo's that image of the first world comes from Shojo's perception that the previous world must have looked the same as the current one, and that perception was completely wrong.

[Ancalagon]

The gates did it.

I like the theory the Snarl consists of "Strains of Creation" but was pure chaos, it just unmade things. We know it STILL did that when there were the rifts, it would poke through when something came near.
But we do know that it does not do that anymore.

The question here is: What is different? On the first glance, we can say "We have no information regarding that", but that's not true. We do know one thing indeed WAS changed in between the eating of Mijung and of a chicken and a goblin cleric:
The gates were created.

Gates, that close the rifts, that seal them and thus add a "Grain of Order" to the "Chaotic Strains of Creation". As water condenses on particles of dust, the first ordered "dots" started to condense on the "inside" of the gates and from there, a "real" plane developed in the chaoses and a planet came after that.

That would explain why the Snarl stopped poking through the rifts, even when they are open now as they were when he killed the Eastern Gods, Mijung, and Goblin + Chicken.

[Morgan Wick]

Awright, people, here's my theory. (My dad's American, sue me.)

The world in the snarl is another webcomic world. I'm hopin' it's the world of Antihero for Hire, that would be awesome.

Most awesome possibilities:

The world of Dr. McNinja.
The world of Gunnerkrigg Court. (Even though that's based on the real world.)
The world of Girl Genius. (Based on real world too.)
The world of Lord of the Rings.
The world of Darths and Droids.
The world of Irregular Webcomic! (Kinda sorta based on real world.)
The world of Sluggy Freelance.
One of the "canonical" D&D settings.
A webcomic that hasn't been created yet. It would be awesome if it linked to a fantasy webcomic idea I've been tossing around in my head.


Hey, maybe this is a setup for OOTS to end like Queen of Wands, with one of the main characters joining another webcomic by someone else?


Visual data:

World 1.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)
World 1.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)
World 1.x? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)
World 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)
World 2.1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Conclusion - the World 1.0 doesn't resemble the planet within the Snarl. But then, there is something weird here - World 2.0 doesn't resemble the planet that Familicide was cast on - in fact, the world on which V casts her Epic Spells looks almost exactly like World 1.0 (!) :smallamused:

Maybe it's the other way around, and they are in imperfect, flawed world within the Snarl, and the portal actually leads to superior World 2.0? Maybe the Greek pantheon are actually the only gods alive, the other three pantheons dead, paving the way to creation of perfect World 2.0, as there was no opposing pantheons anymore, while the souls of dead people and gods formed semblance of life on planet within the Snarl? :smallamused:

That would mean Kraagor and Soon's wife were actually dragged to a better place, and are unvilling/incapable of leaving it.

Note that the portal is in midair, not in the ground, indicating, if anything, that this planed is actually on the "outside", not on the "inside". :smalltongue:
Here's an interpretation: the Scribblers extrapolated that they were on the world that was created to hold the Snarl, when they're really on the recreated World 1.0. (The "World 2.0 is our Earth" theory looks mighty likely.) What this means for Kraagor, the Eastern Gods, whether it's a good idea to mess with the Gates, etc., depends on whether World 1.0 is within, outside, or coexistent with the Snarl.


My guess is that the story about the Snarl was just the Azurites understanding of what happened, and they may be off the mark.

I think in the long run we'll learn what the planet is all about (World 1.0 stuck in World 1.1 makes the most sense to me though.) But I think the Azurites either had only a partial understanding or where just plain wrong about a lot that happened.
It must be the entire Scribbler group's understanding of what happened; Redcloak didn't learn about the Snarl from Azurite sources to the best of my knowledge. Alternately, there are some things the Scribblers held back even from their offspring. There Are Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.

Here's my leading theory on the "There Is No Snarl" front: Everyone allegedly "killed" by the Snarl actually peered into the rift, saw (as Blackwing did) that it looked "so beautiful", and hopped in. For whatever reason, the Scribblers decided that the existence of another world had disturbing theological implications, and that it needed to be hid from public knowledge to the greatest extent possible, lest chaos reign. So they not only hid knowledge of the gates themselves from public knowledge, but even the people they entrusted with the gates after their death were told a bogus story. I actually think their pledge of non-interference itself might be bogus.

This makes the idea of Serini still being at Kraagor's Gate EXTREMELY interesting, as she might have a round of exposition to tell the REAL story once she realizes the OOTS is on to the con... in fact, Book 5 may end with Lien and O-Chul arriving at Kraagor's Gate and Serini freaking out but not for the reasons the paladins expected...

Indeed, perhaps Lirian wasn't being stupid with everything she did in SoD, especially reveal the existence of more gates, but perhaps she was always the one who disagreed with the other Scribblers? She did love to hang out with Dorukan a lot...

(By the way, this whole thing, regardless of interpretation, may put 669 in a whole new light... more supersubtle foreshadowing from Rich?)


Personally, this makes me wonder if the Snarl exists at all...

After all, the only thing we've actually seen be destroyed by the rift is Xykon,* and maybe this was sort of pheltobium** thing.
And Xykon wasn't destroyed by the rift but by Dorukan's protections. Interesting...


Ok, so here's my theory: Maybe there never was a snarl. Maybe the gods of the West, North, and South killed the gods of the East, and bound them to the dimension now accessed through the rifts. Then, they made up the story about the snarl, going so far as to unmake people to keep their cover story.

In the meantime, the gods of the east somehow come back to life (maybe gods can't die permanently in this world.) and create a new planet within their new dimension.

Redcloak knows this, and his plan is actually to blackmail the gods, not with destruction, but by exposing their lies.
Depending on how Redcloak's plotting is portrayed in SoD, this is one way we can give Redcloak knowledge of the "There Is No Snarl" theory, allowing us to have VERY interesting debates about the implications of this on the Monster in the Darkness...

(Hey, I know what the planet inside the rift is! It's V's gender! :smallbiggrin:)


Itty bitty nitpicky: Only evidence we have of the Greek Pantheon ever having existed at all is from the same source that claims Snarl is a mindless destroyer.
But there would have to be a reason for them to be inserted into the story... I don't think "don't mess with this, it kills gods" cuts it...


The gates did it.

I like the theory the Snarl consists of "Strains of Creation" but was pure chaos, it just unmade things. We know it STILL did that when there were the rifts, it would poke through when something came near.
But we do know that it does not do that anymore.

The question here is: What is different? On the first glance, we can say "We have no information regarding that", but that's not true. We do know one thing indeed WAS changed in between the eating of Mijung and of a chicken and a goblin cleric:
The gates were created.

Gates, that close the rifts, that seal them and thus add a "Grain of Order" to the "Chaotic Strains of Creation". As water condenses on particles of dust, the first ordered "dots" started to condense on the "inside" of the gates and from there, a "real" plane developed in the chaoses and a planet came after that.

That would explain why the Snarl stopped poking through the rifts, even when they are open now as they were when he killed the Eastern Gods, Mijung, and Goblin + Chicken.
The interesting thing about the "gates changed the Snarl" theory, when we meld it with the "no snarl" theory: maybe the rifts themselves were somehow created by the Scribblers? With or without that, maybe the Scribblers (or the gods) decided to create a new world within the current one, populate it with Mijung and Kraagor, and ward people away from it lest they destroy it? (Oh God... Mijung and Kraagor... Lirian's animals... this really lends itself to the Planet of the Apes interpretation...)

The one problem I personally have with the "Kraagor lives" theories is that it kinda kills my favorite Belkar-dies theory: Belkar distracting IFCC-V as they both get unmade by the Snarl. But as long as the fabled last panel isn't a naked Elan and Haley colonizing the new Earth and renaming themselves Adam and Eve... something like that would go into my discontinuity file...

[Turkish Delight]

The planet is fairly clearly in an ice age, as large portions of it are covered in ice.

Or just lots of clouds.

[Shadowcaller]

The one problem I personally have with the "Kraagor lives" theories is that it kinda kills my favorite Belkar-dies theory: Belkar distracting IFCC-V as they both get unmade by the Snarl. But as long as the fabled last panel isn't a naked Elan and Haley colonizing the new Earth and renaming themselves Adam and Eve... something like that would go into my discontinuity file...

That would never work anyway. Two persons would never be able to colonize an entire planet by themselves or even mantain a steady population. Lots of inbreeding. :smalltongue:

Then again, there are no rules for genetics in DnD so I guess it might work anyway, it just sounds very unlikely.

[redcodekevin]

One detail I haven't seen mentioned (except for the 2001 quote): Blackwing also spotted stars. This is MORE than just a planet. It's another universe completely. We will still be stumped until we get more info about the other destroyed Gates: we do not know if the reality ripping observed in the smallest of the Gates has repeated itself in Dorukan's or Lirian's. Thus, we do not know if these other destroyed gates have given way to the Snarl's Prison, or to the same planet Blackwing sees, or to entirely different universes.

[Ancalagon]

One detail I haven't seen mentioned (except for the 2001 quote): Blackwing also spotted stars. This is MORE than just a planet.

In my vocabulary here I used "planet" in the same was as "plane of existence" (which is the correct term in D&Dverse). The plane of course has a plent/planets, stars, moons, no real "geographic" limit, it could even have its own sets of gods!

[Volkov]

Could it be that the white transparent thing is not ice, but clouds? After all, with an earth-like planet, large portions should be covered with clouds.

The entire northern hemisphere? I doubt it. The northern ice cap is too large and too consistent to be simple cloud cover.

[julyaugust]

Another theory: What if the planet is the Snarl? After all, both Worlds are made out of threads and the Snarl is made out of tangled threads.
Exactly my first thought upon the sight.

Though it leads to the question: If there was a Snarl and it formed itself into a planet within 200 years, then why at that precise time? What was different to the presumably long time it was caged before and created the rifts to escape? The gates? :smallconfused:

Depending on how Redcloak's plotting is portrayed in SoD, this is one way we can give Redcloak knowledge of the "There Is No Snarl" theory, allowing us to have VERY interesting debates about the implications of this on the Monster in the Darkness...
If Redcloak knew, why would he wonder about the Snarl not attacking through the Azure City rift?

Does not compute.

[Volkov]

Perhaps there was a snarl, but it died or dissipated within the last 50 years.

[MReav]

One detail I haven't seen mentioned (except for the 2001 quote): Blackwing also spotted stars. This is MORE than just a planet. It's another universe completely. We will still be stumped until we get more info about the other destroyed Gates: we do not know if the reality ripping observed in the smallest of the Gates has repeated itself in Dorukan's or Lirian's. Thus, we do not know if these other destroyed gates have given way to the Snarl's Prison, or to the same planet Blackwing sees, or to entirely different universes.

Unless it's like Mystara (or that other campaign setting I might be confusing it with), where the stars really are just points in the sky.

[Sethis]

Hylean Theoric World.

And a million bonus points to anyone who gets the reference without Google.

Also: anyone saying that the OOTS world Gods dont exist because the world they're on is the Eastern god one needs to remember we've actually seen those Gods do stuff. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)

[derfenrirwolv]

The planet is moving in planar vibrational frequencies to keep the snarl from dimension shifting to get out. What if each of those frequencies requires its own planet, so that its not just the oots planet that the gods had to make, but one for every resonance level ?

[Watcher]

Quoted so you don't have to dig it out:


Shojo: As the gods pulled on the last few strands, the new world formed in the same planar space as the Snarl, shunting it into a tiny demiplane from which it could not free itself. The gods had been clever and built their planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrational frequencies the Snarl could have used to escape from its cell.

But, this theory is probably out since the Snarl attacked people before the gates were made.


On the ice caps: It's definitely ice. You can see the cloud cover around it, and it looks different than the ice.

[VanBuren]

What if the Snarl's goal is destroy everything created by the gods and then remake it without the "imperfections"?

[BiggusGeekus]

Edit: after reviewing the thread it seems other people had the same idea. I'm glad to know I'm in good company.

My spoiler theory:



* The planet is Snarl. Remember how Snarl was created? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html ... gods used threads of reality to creat World 1.0 and the Snarl was a tangle in those threads brought on by the gods' conflicts and selfishness. But that doesn't mean that the Snarl can't contain anything itself or be anything itself for that matter.

* :mitd: is connected to the Snarl as well. Maybe a direct link to the new world. Maybe some aspect or image of the Snarl. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html ... "I do remember my Dad, sort of. He was BIG and he ate a lot." ... I don't think :mitd: is an actual son of the Snarl, but I do think its made up of the same reality threads that the Snarl, World 1 & 2.0 are made up of.



Just my two cents.

[nybbler]

I'm thinking the bit about there being a prison for the Snarl is nonsense. The Stickverse may be a prison or a fortress, but I think it's the inside, not the outside.

[Threndsa]

-The planet is a recreation of world 1.0 made by snarl after his imprisonment.
-The attacks 50 years ago were not random acts of aggression but rather snarl trying to protect its realm from outside influence.
-Yes snarl was a being of chaos, but chaos as well as the arguements between gamers that Rich analogized snarl as, can eventually return to peace.
-No aggression this time due to the other gates keeping either snarl from seeing out or people from going in. We have never seen anyone actually go through the rift so we have no way of knowing if its an active stable portal or just a view hole at this point.
-Snarl acts as a sort of god for the planet. We know that the world 1.0 must have its own afterlife system otherwise the world beyond the gate would have already been known.
-UNLESS the gods are hiding those people somewhere in order to hide their goof up with snarl

V makes a good point about not fully knowing what they are doing. Heck its possible that the worst thing to happen if Xykon takes control of a gate and unseals it is that he can charge a toll to use it as a portal to the other world.

[One Skunk Todd]

Squark, Xykon was destroyed by the wards which stopped evil people from touching the Gate rather then the rift itself.

I wonder if he got a look at the rift beyond, and if so, what he saw.

[Rad]

I wonder if he got a look at the rift beyond, and if so, what he saw.

He didn't because at the time the rift was still sealed. It only got open when the self distruction rune Elan activated went off, several minutes later.

[srbrunoaf]

Not the best theory, but...
Well, what I learned from the Sexy Shoeless God of War (actually from the old guy with his cat, saying it to Belkar): chaos is about unpredictability, not about pseudo-random EVENLY distributed... Like, in any true random streams of numbers, you will eventually find a logic to it, unfortunatelly, the next numbers won't follow this logic! That's the beauty of chaos! Keep people on their tip toes, wondering what you'll do next... The Snarl is chaotic as far as I can tell, so... He attacks people thru rifts when he feels like doing it! He's got enough spare time and resources, so he builts a planet when he feels like it, also! He need no reason for doing stuff...

Also, I never saw any ground-less speculation prediction from the forums come true (not that I saw many), so... Rich could easily throw us off with lots of comics giving little merit to this question, so this topic gets cold, and read it and get everything in a new direction! I mean, I don't think he'd forget what he alredy though about that, to replace with something we didn't think, just to play with us, but he could easily bend it a little just to be off our predictions...

[MagicianMan5]

Another theory: What if the planet is the Snarl? After all, both Worlds are made out of threads and the Snarl is made out of tangled threads. Would it be possible for the Snarl to organize and untangle its threads to transform into a planet.

Oh my god... the Snarl is Unicron!:smalltongue:

yeah... there is a problem with everyones theorys that no one has noticed (as far as i've read, which isnt that far) the Snarl is BORN of the snags and snarls caused by the arguments between the gods. the Snarl is a being of Chaos itself. Not Good, Not Evil, Not Lawful, But Chaotic. the Snarl cant plan, cant think, cant organize, cant wait, and also as the comic said before, its demi-deity powers were dimmed when trapped in the world. my theory is that ALL the Rifts must be open for the Snarl to Act. I believe that thats also what Redcloak believes, otherwise why would he wait around Azure City, researching this crap, when he could do what Xykon says and get a move on. Redcloak must fear that either Greenhilt, Xykon, or the Guardians of the Gate (random guess that there are guardians) will screw it all up. it happened thrice before, he aint messing with that crap again unless he knows how to fix it if someone breaks the gate again. thats my thoery.

[kpenguin]

While the Snarl was born from the arguments between the Gods, I see no reason to assume that it is an unintelligent being of pure chaos.

Or that it can't change its nature.

[Conuly]

I believe that thats also what Redcloak believes, otherwise why would he wait around Azure City, researching this crap, when he could do what Xykon says and get a move on. Redcloak must fear that either Greenhilt, Xykon, or the Guardians of the Gate (random guess that there are guardians) will screw it all up. it happened thrice before, he aint messing with that crap again unless he knows how to fix it if someone breaks the gate again. thats my thoery.

Except that Redcloak stated to Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that the real reason he was hanging around Azure City was to establish the hobgoblin's position there. He might also have been doing honest research, why not, but he was delaying for other reasons.

[srbrunoaf]

Except that Redcloak stated to Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) that the real reason he was hanging around Azure City was to establish the hobgoblin's position there. He might also have been doing honest research, why not, but he was delaying for other reasons.

As far as I knew, Redcloak doesn't really care about them. He's kind of supportive towards Xykon idea of Expendable Minions if it means hobgoblins, he hates them, right?
"Redcloak: Goblin, yes. Hobgoblin, no. They're disgusting, pompous jerks." (oots0148)

[hamishspence]

But in strip 451 he decides that his racism toward hobgoblins is Wrong and tries to stops doing it: "I'm turning into Xykon!"

[David Argall]

my theory is that ALL the Rifts must be open for the Snarl to Act.
The only evidence we can see that supports this is that the Snarl is still inactive. But on the face of it, the idea appears to be nonsense. If you have 5 locks on 5 doors, opening up one lock and its door allows you access. The others can be open or not.

If we take Shojo's tale as correct, the Snarl was still active when 4 of the 5 rifts were sealed. So the presence of one or two sealed rifts should make no difference. [Now we do have a difference between "gates" and "seals", but based on the given explanations, this should make no difference to this point. However, we are dealing with technical language used by a non-specialist, and so critical errors could be present.]



I believe that thats also what Redcloak believes, otherwise why would he wait around Azure City, researching this crap, when he could do what Xykon says and get a move on. Redcloak must fear that either Greenhilt, Xykon, or the Guardians of the Gate (random guess that there are guardians) will screw it all up. it happened thrice before, he aint messing with that crap again unless he knows how to fix it if someone breaks the gate again. thats my thoery.
Based on what we are told, it seems unlikely that Redcloak is high enough level to be able to fix or make a Gate. What he is is high enough to make use of one.
Redcloak has told us his motives are to prepare for whatever opposition they might face, and to make sure the hobgoblins can maintain their power.

[cheesecake]

maybe the sartans sundered the world?........

[Viridis]

What the planet is the Afterworld? If the Snarl is chaos and unmakes things, perhaps this is where the unmade things go. World 1.0 was unmade, so it ended up in the Snarl's dimension as well.

That is my first thought, anyway.

My second thought is that it's 4th Ed, and therefore must be kept separate from the current World! :smallbiggrin:

[Linkavitch]

IMO, it would be awesome if the Snarl's World turned out to be the frst world. Then, Belkar would have a legit way to stay alive, and so would everyone elso on World 1.0. And the three pantheons of 2.0 would be like "Oh, so it was a good thing after all. Shoot." Or something like that.

[srbrunoaf]

Thanks for remembering me that Redcloak forgot his racism!

Also, on...


But on the face of it, the idea appears to be nonsense. If you have 5 locks on 5 doors, opening up one lock and its door allows you access. The others can be open or not.

What if the 5 gates are kind of 5 locks on 1 door? Needs to open all to pass.. Only problem here is that during the last sealing, Snarl was still battling... I like this theory for it's the only one assuming no one lied to the readers (out of some personal reason or just not knowing the truth)...

[rrgg]

Ok, I'm a believer that the events as told aren't lies for the most part. The problem came that while the Gods were skillful and delicate when it came to weaving World 2.0, the mortals of the scribble had to be a bit more crude. As a result of sealing the gates, a huge amount of energy was released into the snarl, accelerating it through time.

It wasn't until about 66 years BC (Before Comic) when the gates began opening that the snarl began to slow and resync itself with the overworld, by then the snarl had broken down and chaos started transforming into order. An evolved universe, rather than the one created by the gods. (Though definately not the actual Earth)
Nonetheless, it is still extremely dangerous. Mainly because it was created outside of the Gods' agreements which govern things like the treatment of souls after death, the nature of magic, and the unkillability of gods (I am also of the opinion that D&D does a poor job of representing realistic combat, but that is a whole other can of worms).


Anyways, I'm looking forward to Girard's gate, because if anyone survived I feel we are almost certain to get another crayola dump, likely one that completely contadicts everything we learned in the last dump.

[Swooper]

Uhm, I'd just like to point out that this is a thread from 2009. :mitd:
http://www.minerwars.com/ForumUploads/20100916023519_217_Necromancy.jpg
I'm sure a mod will be around soon enough.