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Paganboy28
2009-08-08, 12:12 PM
What sort of true dragon would you play or would you say is the most uber in terms of a PC?

Also, what class would you mesh onto it?


I am thinking maybe a Tome Dragon Archivist would be a rather potent combination or a Tome Dragon Druid going to a Arcane Heirophant?

Opinions?


Also, what are opinions on the Multi-headed template combined with the Multi-voice feat. As a caster, this makes soem dragons uber. IMO

Callos_DeTerran
2009-08-08, 12:17 PM
What sort of true dragon would you play or would you say is the most uber in terms of a PC?

Also, what class would you mesh onto it?


I am thinking maybe a Tome Dragon Archivist would be a rather potent combination or a Tome Dragon Druid going to a Arcane Heirophant?

Opinions?


Also, what are opinions on the Multi-headed template combined with the Multi-voice feat. As a caster, this makes soem dragons uber. IMO

Multi-headed Blue Dragon Ravager of Tiamat. Playable? Probably not, awesome? Most definitely.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-08, 05:34 PM
The LA is far too rough. Though a melee Killer Gnome build might work if you just take Wyrmling(or Pseudodragon) and your DM allows you to ignore the racial prerequisites.
Also, Ambush Drake is a 7 HD dragon with LA 0, IIRC. Pretty popular for that reason.

deuxhero
2009-08-08, 05:59 PM
I think the best two in terms of HD/LA are Ambush Drake and Steel Dragon (has LA, but is a true dragon) .

dspeyer
2009-08-08, 07:35 PM
I had a wyrmling brass dragon rogue once who was great fun to play. A very effective scout, with tinyness and flight and fire immunity. The cone of sleep was also pretty effective. It wasn't an effective melee fighter though, so bard, beguiler or factotum would have been a more powerful class than rogue.

dspeyer
2009-08-08, 07:38 PM
Also, Ambush Drake is a 7 HD dragon with LA 0, IIRC. Pretty popular for that reason.

My copy of MMIII lists Ambush Drake explicitly as "LA: --".

I've heard this LA 0 thing before though. Was it a first edition misprint?

deuxhero
2009-08-08, 08:16 PM
It's initial online "print" makes no mention of LA, thus LA+0 for the same reason as humans.

Glimbur
2009-08-08, 08:17 PM
The best way to make a dragon campaign work imo is to just have every player be a dragon and kick both LA and reason to the curb.

Hat-Trick
2009-08-08, 08:22 PM
Screw the rules we have Dragons? Awesome.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 08:44 PM
It's initial online "print" makes no mention of LA, thus LA+0 for the same reason as humans.

Do you mean this online print (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a)? The one where LA is mentioned at "--", therefore in unplayable for PCs?

JaxGaret
2009-08-08, 09:49 PM
The best way to make a dragon campaign work imo is to just have every player be a dragon and kick both LA and reason to the curb.

You could say the same for "Insert Monster X" campaign. Or "Insert ECL X race".

It's an awesome idea.

Altima
2009-08-08, 10:01 PM
There actually used to be a setting in AD&D that was designed solely around dragon PCs.

It even went into details about what kind of 'pets' would benefit dragons the most. Elves mostly won out, simply because we're talking about creatures that can live for thousands of years. Everything else just died too damn quickly.

It even supported players making dragons with PC classes (mind you, this was 2nd edition, so...), so you'd have dragon clerics, dragon wizards...dragon psionicists...

Salt_Crow
2009-08-08, 10:03 PM
A friend of mine played in a CR=ECL campaign with two dragons in the party. They were pretty balanced, iirc.

JaxGaret
2009-08-08, 10:04 PM
It even supported players making dragons with PC classes (mind you, this was 2nd edition, so...), so you'd have dragon clerics, dragon wizards...dragon psionicists...

Dragon Rogue would be hilariois.

'I might be Huge-sized and smashing you with my tail but SNEAK ATTACK!"

A friend of mine played in a CR=ECL campaign with two dragons in the party. They were pretty balanced, iirc.

You know, that's really not a bad idea for a houserule. Of course, there will be some abusable selections, so you'd have to go on a case by case basis, but it might be a bit more balanced than the core rules.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 10:50 PM
you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.

quick_comment
2009-08-08, 10:56 PM
you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.

Like teleport at will

On monsters, at best, its for harassment.

On PCs, it lets them break your campaign.


Another way to get dragons as PCs is to have every PC include in their backstory being polymorphed by a crazy wizard.

dspeyer
2009-08-08, 11:23 PM
For dragon PCs, CR=ECL will leave them overpowered. A CR 5 very young silver dragon has everything a raging level 10 barbarian does, plus breath weapon, flight, etc. It's ECL 14, which might be too high.

On the other hand, an all-dragon party might do better being equal CR than equal ECL, so long as no one deliberately abused it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-08, 11:26 PM
you do know the reason CR does not equal ECL is because many many many many many monsters have abilities that aren't that good, as monsters, but as PCs snap many thing in two, even three pieces?

I think it says that in 2, maybe 3 places, just in core.

EDIT: CR is also much easier to break than ECL.Yes, a game where the players advance by CR instead of ECL would not be remotely balanced other than if players intentionally limit themselves(which is different from the rest of 3.x how?:smallwink:). It would be awesome, though. A Dragon, growing from an especially-deadly iguana into a mountain-sized force of nature. An Imp assassin, gathering unholy energy to itself until it can scare Balors. The players don't need to be balanced with their challenges, just with each other.

dspeyer
2009-08-08, 11:53 PM
Dragon Rogue would be hilariois.

'I might be Huge-sized and smashing you with my tail but SNEAK ATTACK!"

Try a black dragon submerged except for his nostrils in a swamp.

Lycanthromancer
2009-08-08, 11:59 PM
In a CR = ECL game, I'd so be playing a choker.

Extra actions ahoy!

sofawall
2009-08-09, 12:02 AM
And fairly low CR, too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-09, 12:03 AM
In a CR = ECL game, I'd so be playing a choker.

Extra actions ahoy!Note what I said about it needing to be player/DM balanced. Attempts to break it are too easy to use(Ikea Tarrasque, Kobold Adept, etc). The upper power limit would need to be figured out in advance, and rule -1 adhered to.

Sanguine
2009-08-09, 12:05 AM
Note what I said about it needing to be player/DM balanced. Attempts to break it are too easy to use(Ikea Tarrasque, Kobold Adept, etc). The upper power limit would need to be figured out in advance, and rule -1 adhered to.

What's rule -1? What your saying strikes me as Rule 0 applied by a fair DM.

oxinabox
2009-08-09, 12:06 AM
I agree with who ever saidAmbush drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a), has LA:--- Meaning not playable by PCs>

Doesn't savage species have rules for playiong an all Dragon Party?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-08-09, 12:07 AM
What's rule -1? What your saying strikes me as Rule 0 applied by a fair DM.Rule 0: The DM has the final say.
Rule -1: Don't be a jerk.

Sanguine
2009-08-09, 12:09 AM
Rule 0: The DM has the final say.
Rule -1: Don't be a jerk.

Awww Okay. I just assumed Rule -1 was an implied part of Rule 0.

On-Topic I think Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-09, 12:24 AM
Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) would probably be the most playable due to their superior spellcasting ability, but there isn't a LA listed. IIRC they were printed most recently in Dragons of Faerun, which may list a LA, but I don't have that one.

As for what classes to take with one, I'd definitely get Abjurant Champion for the caster level boost. Most dragons have far more HD than the level of their spellcasting ability, and dragon HD give fighter BAB, so most dragons could almost triple their caster level by taking Abjurant Champion.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 12:29 AM
Awww Okay. I just assumed Rule -1 was an implied part of Rule 0.

On-Topic I think Draconomicon has rules for Dragon PCs.

They do, but it's kind of a slapped-on thing. I don't want a wyrmling with five levels of fighter, blast it, I want a D-R-A-G-O-N!

That said, I personally feel that the best PC dragon is the Red Dragon, and the bigger and more cliche, the better. Make him smug, comically evil, and completely unconcerned with the social graces, or even not looking like a monster.

"Fine, but I want my payment in virgins."

"'Don't burn this! Don't burn that! Don't eat him!' If you humans don't want to be killed, why are you made out of meat and treasure?"

"No, you may not 'hitch a ride.' The last adventurer who tried to do that was delicious."

For extra giggles, try saying everything in character in your best Jeremy Irons (Scar, from The Lion King) impersonation.

dspeyer
2009-08-09, 01:11 AM
Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) would probably be the most playable due to their superior spellcasting ability, but there isn't a LA listed. IIRC they were printed most recently in Dragons of Faerun, which may list a LA, but I don't have that one.

This seems a poorly thought-out monster. It's not just missing level adjustments (which true dragons ought to have). For young and older, its caster level exceeds its CR. Yes, being secretly a dragon *disadvantages* mid to high level sorcerers! Also, they're described as spending most of their time in humanoid form, but their only means of doing that is 5/day polymorph, which lasts 1 min/level.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 01:34 AM
It has a LA, you just have to calculate it manually. I'll give it a go right now, SSG style:

Breath Weapon (+1)
Spellcasting Ability (+1)
Flight (+1)
Spell Resistance (+1)
Spell-Like Ablities beyond ECL (+1)
Three wacky but seperate resistances (+1)
Unbalanced Ability Scores (+1)
Fear Effect (N/A, not better than a wizard at that ECL casting Fear)

So, LA +7. In a high level game, the Ability Scores, Resistances, and Spell-Like Abilities can probably be collectively reduced to a +1, so +5 LA in a high power game.

Manual LA calculation is subject to DM ruling, so your opinion may differ, but that seems fairest to me. You can't even touch this creature until we get to at least a level 9 game, when it will have 4 Hit Dice. I wouldn't recommend playing one until an ECL 13 game, though.

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-09, 02:10 AM
Theoretically it should be possible.

In practice however? I've only seen it in action when it was the DM's girlfriend playing the character (which basically threw LA and such out the window, including giving her the ability to just not take damage whenever she so desired.)

Then again, in that party the Warmage/Rogue I played was not only the brightest, most effective, biggest damage-dealer, best battlefield controller, skillmonkey, and leader of the group, but was also the trapfinder...

and every character I played with that group following was gimped by the DM in the name of balance.

[/rant]

I've never seen it done well, and don't believe that the LA/HD issues can be offset with anything but a Wyrmling, and even then there's a huge gap between them and the rest of the party.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 02:12 AM
I didn't say that it should be done. You're right, the system just doesn't support dragon PCs unless every PC is a dragon and the DM tells the ECL system that they should stop seeing each other.

Paganboy28
2009-08-09, 04:00 AM
Currently in the game I am playing, we are all True Dragon PC's.

We are also gestalt characters, though one side is the dragon, the other is the class. We were set a 15HD/levels limit, though this was flexible so that you could with DM discretion have one side more biased than the other.

I am a Young Mutli-headed (2 heads) Spellwarped Chaos Dragon Sorcerer/Wildmage. I also have the multi-voice feat so I can cast 2 spells a round if I want.

We are also using the spell point system from UA for magic and most of the Pathfinder rules.

My friend is a Juvenile Crystal Dragon Bard.


If anyone else wants to join in that would be good. We play over Skype as everyone moved away but we still wanted to play. It's working ok at the moment.


Dragon natural attacks don't seem that powerful, though I am not a melee lover anyway, but they are a little disappointing.

Natural armour and other benefits are good though.


I have been toying around with the idea of a Tome Dragon (from Dragon Magazine 343).


Awesome arcane spell castings (start a 3rd level and then each age category increases CL by 2 until25th at Great Wyrm!).

Free metamagic!!

Telepathy.

High intellect and good mental stats (crap physical stats but then thats not so concerning to me).

Insight Armour bonus.


Because of the high racial Int, I was thinking an Archivist so that you can have both arcane AND divine spells. If you Multi-head and Multi-voice then you can cast 2 spells per round, plus Free metamagic to lower the level adjustment of Quicken spell! This would work thematically and fluff wise as well as Tome Dragons are seekers of knowledge.

However, other classes might suit, so you could mix that innate spell-casting with another class to give all-round abilities.

Druid might be a good choice.