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Reaper_Monkey
2009-08-08, 12:44 PM
I've been playing D&D 3.5 for some time now, and enjoy it for its diversity of rules and mechanics it offers, although there are some players who still have yet to bother learning half the rules of it due to their complexity in places.

Due to this I've been looking around for a simpler system to use which cuts down on dredging through piles of books to make character concepts actually work on the mechanical level. I ended up running across Fudge (http://fudgerpg.com/fudge.html), which is much more of a frame work that an entire rule set but still has a solid core mechanic which intrigues me. Although its very free form and therefore looks to have the concept of balanced only achievable through omniscience, it does look much more casual and potentially useful for what I need.

I was wondering if anyone else has had experience with using the system at all, and what your thoughts on it are. Also, if you have used it, do you have any guidance for new comers to using it?

Just to point out, I'm not looking to remake D&D with fudge, and I'm not entirely sure if I'll be making another fantasy system with it or not yet. I'm just looking for a lower upkeep system to have as an alternative to the current D&D game we're playing, so experience of Fudge imitating any genre of game will still be useful, thanks :smallsmile:.

AstralFire
2009-08-08, 12:45 PM
I've heard good things about FUDGE from a lot of people. I would ask Zuki or Knaight about it; my experience is limited.

Doc Roc
2009-08-08, 12:45 PM
Yes, and I hate it with an unholy passion. I'm just an old grognard though.
My light choice of system is either a homebrew I've been using for 2-3 years now, or the excellent Savage Worlds.

Knaight
2009-08-08, 01:22 PM
Its a great system, and my personal choice for when I want to play a rules light system, that is to say, nearly always. Savage worlds is a close second, but a bit heavy for my taste. I can pretty much model anything I want at this point, although there are a few things that are a bit tricky if your going for balance, and it takes a while to get good at using the system (which means that consulting someone who already knows it is a good idea, getting the system on your own is tricky. I'm one of the people who started it as a relatively new GM with no real advice here, so take my advice on this). So what do you want?

Level based or not? By default it isn't, but making it level based is really easy.

How rules light? On one end you have Over the Fudge(look it up), on another Blood Sweat and Steel. Both are awesome, although the second is unfinished and I am involved enough in the design process to cloud my objectivity.

What type of magic? More free form, or memorized spells? Resources worth looking at here are Four by Five, The Gramayre, Door to Shadow, etc. I kind of specialize in making magic systems though, so if you have a vision contact me.

How realistic, detailed, and deadly do you want combat to be? On the one hand you have the heroic wound track, bolstered by hit points, built for cinematic games, on the other tracking every wound with a rapid death spiral.

Now for references. Look up Fudge Factor in google, it is sheer brilliance.

Zuki
2009-08-08, 02:44 PM
I don't have any direct experience with FUDGE, but I'm extremely fond of its descendant, FATE.

The FATE system takes FUDGE's basic dice rolling and skill ladder mechanic and combines it with a few new concepts: Aspects, Fate Points, and Stunts.

The second edition core rules for FATE aren't hard to find at all if you hunt around the internet. It's a generic system, that gives many examples of how it can be customized. However, the 3rd edition refinements of FATE are where it really begins to shine.

Spirit of the Century is a game based on FATE 3rd edition, designed to create heroic pulp adventures the likes of Tarzan, Indiana Jones, or most anything you can fancy with 1920's gangsters, gratuitious gorillas and biplanes, and Atlantis. It's rules medium that quickly becomes rules light once you get the hang of it.

The same company that put out Spirit of the Century, Evil Hat, is slowly working on a version of FATE to accomodate the setting of Jim Butcher's Dresden Files rpg, an urban fantasy series with a little bit of noir detectives and a lot of action.

Another recent offering with FATE is Starblazer Adventures, which does to space opera and sci-fi what Spirit of the Century does to 1920's dime novels.

I've also seen many, many, different FATE-based homebrews. Two that come to mind immediately are system/setting conversions for Eberron and Exalted.

I'd like to apologize that I'm not as familiar with FUDGE, but I do know of one FUDGE-based fantasy rpg, called The Shadow of Yesterday. One interesting thing I recall from it was that its experience system used a mechanic called Keys, which meant that acting in a certain way consistent with your character's chosen traits or motivation would earn you exp. If you wanted to buy a Key off to represent character growth, you could do that for a considerably larger, one-time exp bonus, but that Key would not be available again.

Those are some examples you may want to look at to see how FATE and FUDGE can be used to emulated another genre. The strength of generic systems is that you can do anything with them; the weakness of a generic presentation is that it may not be obvious what to do.

Here are a few other rules-lighter systems I'm aware of that you may want to look into:

Unisystem. Comes in two flavors, Cinematic Unisystem and Classic Unisystem. Published as a number of separate games with all basically intercompatible rules. Published uses of Unisystem by Eden Studios include zombie survival horror, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which means it's flexible enough to do a variety of monsters and supernatural powers and melee fighting), something called Witchcraft that has the corebook available for free, and another supplement that caught my interest called Beyond Human. That last one seems to be a complete game to do their own twist on superheroes, but it'd also be useful as a big book of toys for any of their other games.

PDQ. Stands for Prose Descriptive Qualities, I'm told. This is probably the lightest system on the list unless you were interested in Risus, Wushu, or d02.

I don't know all that much about it, but it looks very simple, very light, and Evil Hat has a game out using called Swashbucklers of the Seven Skies. It's also used for a supers game called Truth and Justice. And, again, I've seen it used in homebrews and conversions. And for a silly little game called Monkey Pirate Ninja Robot. But it doesn't seem to be nothing but cheerfulness and rainbows--the other PQD-dervied game I know about is called Dead Inside.

Here's the Evil Hat development Wiki. It should have some links to FATE stuff and PDQ stuff to get you started. (http://evilhat.wikidot.com/start)

Here's a Shadow of Yesterday SRD. (http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/tsoy2/book1--rulebook.html)

Does that help get you started?

jmbrown
2009-08-08, 03:00 PM
Zuki pretty much hit on everything I wanted to say. In terms of roleplay I prefer FATE because it drops the abstract attributes common to most RPGs in exchange for aspects which is basically a broad idea of how the character works. Everyone is basically average but you purchase aspects to decide their strengths or weaknesses.

Both systems require a lot of tinkering from the GM but FATE requires less book keeping and the narrative flows a lot easier.

Zuki
2009-08-08, 03:37 PM
Zuki pretty much hit on everything I wanted to say. In terms of roleplay I prefer FATE because it drops the abstract attributes common to most RPGs in exchange for aspects which is basically a broad idea of how the character works. Everyone is basically average but you purchase aspects to decide their strengths or weaknesses.

Both systems require a lot of tinkering from the GM but FATE requires less book keeping and the narrative flows a lot easier.

I love Aspects. They're one my my favorite game mechanics, ever. However, JM's leaving out a few things. In FATE, Aspects are something you freely define for your character: they might be a catchphrase, an iconic piece of equipment, a fact or your backstory or some other character trait. As an example, here are some aspects from a PC that's a double agent working for the British Crown and the Triads of Hong Kong.

Half-Blood Heritage
Master Fu has taught me well
For the Crown!
Driven by Revenge

These are all emblematic of different parts of that character: his conflicting loyalties of China and to Britian, his martial arts training, etc.

In FATE, if you think an Aspect on your character sheet is relevant to the situation, you pay a Fate point to Invoke it for a bonus on a die roll. This bonus can be before or after you roll the dice. If you think you really need to pull out all the stops, you can pay more Fate points and invoke more Aspects, if you can convince the DM they are also relevant.

However, if the GM thinks an Aspect on your character sheet might get a PC into trouble (Half-Blood Heritage making a half-asian, half-englishman stand out when he's trying to be inconspicous, For the Crown! if I wanted to encourage him to sell out some Chinese allies to the British Government, Driven by Revenge if it's a situation where he was intially intending to chose mercy..), then the GM can Compell an Aspect and suggest a course of action for the character. If the PC is willing to go along with this suggestion, they're rewarded by the DM with a Fate Point they can spend at a later date. If they choose to ignore the Compel, they must spend a Fate Point.

I love this mechanic because it works to create stories. A character might be compelled by one aspect to dash headlong into a troublesome situation...that they'll later be spending the Fate Points they earned with that Compel to then get out of the jam! It also encourages PCs to have a few character flaws, or make interesting decisions for the sake of a story rather than trying to play 'optimally'. Some players will deliberately compel themselves.

Fate Points have other uses, as well. They are often spent to fuel Stunts, which are more specialized uses and tricks you can do with skills, or they can be spend to give the player a small amount of narrative control over the story--to declare that there's a chandelier to hop up and swing off of, a fire escape to grab onto while falling, that the Crime Boss they're negotiating with has a special fondness for the vintage of wine they brought along, etc. If the GM is willing to go along with this new added detail, the player spends a Fate Point and it is now true.

Knaight
2009-08-08, 06:58 PM
Minor Quibble. Fate points are modified Fudge points, introduces with Fudge. Aspects were in Fate, however Stunts didn't show up until spirit of the century. Aspects are absolute genius, but they work with Fudge, the Fate author introduced them into his Fudge game before making Fate, it is in an article on Fudge Factor. I prefer Fudge to Fate personally, as I like the simulationism attributes have, and using only aspects is just a bit too narrativist, but I will bring aspects in to Fudge games. As for Fate being an easier system for a naturally flowing story I disagree, as for book keeping default Fate is heavier than many iterations of Fudge, and lighter than many others.

One of my personal quibbles with Fate is the way it handles environments. Areas are broken up into Zones, which then have aspects, however to use an aspect you have to pay a fate point, although in some situations it can be done for free. So if you tip a barrel of oil on the floor you could use the slippery aspect the room gains to trip your opponent. However any further uses now require a Fate point. Fudge would handle things in a more mainstream way, simulating things being slippery with a bonus/penalty. I personally prefer that, however it is where the book keeping is more likely to come in.

In either case most all the Fudge systems are incredible, although with the exception of the Key mechanic The Shadow of Yesterday isn't very good.

On PDQ: It also has a game called Dead Inside, which looks extremely interesting, although I haven't played it. My simulationist side really doesn't like parts of the PDQ system, particularly how "damage" goes directly to traits, meaning having a high basket weaving skill or the like makes you tougher in combat, as "damage" can go to the basket weaving skill.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-08-08, 07:40 PM
First off, thanks for all the alternative game systems suggested, I like learning new game mechanics and I've now got a new pile of links to work through learning as many new mechanics as I can find :smallbiggrin:

To Zuki & jmbrown: Yes I actually found FUDGE through FATE, and I agree that the Aspects mechanic is very versatile and quite elegant in its design. I also like the fact that it encourages some negatives and that flaws can be enforced, which is all too often what happens when players put in flaws.

I pitched the basic overview of the rules to my rabble and they rejected it due to the potential power RP creep which the rules offered. Although they could counter things with fate points to literally govern their own fate single handedly which steps into the GM domain, they seem quite happy with the GM controlling everything but their characters. So no dice there.

Knaight, thanks for your basic overview of the system, its good to know that my assumptions on FUDGE's versatility are not missed placed, and, as I'll never turn down free advice...

Level based or not? By default it isn't, but making it level based is really easy.
Levels will probably make the system more handleable for my rabble as that's what they're use to. Levelling mechanics in a game also gives a more tangible reward system which allows players to idle in plot development without feeling like they're failing to achieve anything... which again is why its well suited for my bunch. But as you've said it's pretty straight forward to add that in.


How rules light? On one end you have Over the Fudge(look it up), on another Blood Sweat and Steel. Both are awesome, although the second is unfinished and I am involved enough in the design process to cloud my objectivity.
It needs to be streamlined so there is little data-mining required to play, and the base rules should be straight forward enough that once explained they shouldn't need to be looked up repeatedly (like grappling rules :smallfurious: scorn). I like the simplicity of Over the Fudge, although I have a feeling that it may be a little too light for some of my players, so that's a good definition of the bottom end of the scale. I can't seem to find much in the way of rules for Blood Sweat and Steel, so if you could direct me towards some of those that'd be great :smallsmile:.
I don't foresee FUDGE based systems in needing much data-mining really due to its basic nature, so what I'm looking for is a small set of rules with lots of emergent rule potential... I also don't require physics grade accuracy in the rules, the reason I'm liking FUDGE is its ambiguous style in attributes which allow more RP play than simulation play.


What type of magic? More free form, or memorized spells? Resources worth looking at here are Four by Five, The Gramayre, Door to Shadow, etc. I kind of specialize in making magic systems though, so if you have a vision contact me.
None of my lot are big on book keeping and spell list preparation, even my almost munchin player can't stand the effort they require. As such, I'll be avoiding anything along those lines. The genre has yet to be set, but it'll either be firefly grade gunmanship or superpowers, I've already plenty of ideas to flesh either out but I'll not turn down help in the matter :smallwink:


How realistic, detailed, and deadly do you want combat to be? On the one hand you have the heroic wound track, bolstered by hit points, built for cinematic games, on the other tracking every wound with a rapid death spiral.
Realism is ideal, but streamlined play is the goal, combat has a tendency to get very boggy and eat into limited play time so I want to avoid anything that requires too much paper work to keep track of. Other than that, the general survivability and grittiness of combat is currently unset.


Also, I apologise ahead of time for if any of this turns out to be unreadable, it's late and I'm tired and therefore likely to be less than coherent in places. :smalleek:

Reaper_Monkey
2009-08-08, 07:50 PM
...Just when your about to go to bed, someone has to say something you want to reply to :smallsigh:


...I prefer Fudge to Fate personally, as I like the simulationism attributes have, and using only aspects is just a bit too narrativist...
...however to use an aspect you have to pay a fate point...

These two points are also something I personally dislike about the system, you have a nice broad definition of a character, however you often have to pay to use anything from it. Which leads to all characters being able to do all things to the same degree except for the few occasions where you pay to be slightly better, which makes the Aspects very much "per day" abilities, which I despise with a passion anyway. But it also looks as though your character, although having definition, is not overly defined in a mechanical sense of potency, which I personally feel is a requirement in an RPG.

JaxGaret
2009-08-08, 09:59 PM
These two points are also something I personally dislike about the system, you have a nice broad definition of a character, however you often have to pay to use anything from it. Which leads to all characters being able to do all things to the same degree except for the few occasions where you pay to be slightly better, which makes the Aspects very much "per day" abilities, which I despise with a passion anyway. But it also looks as though your character, although having definition, is not overly defined in a mechanical sense of potency, which I personally feel is a requirement in an RPG.

Just wanted to point out that you can play with characters having more Aspects if you like. The rulebook for SotC tells you to start off with 5 or so, but you can easily go up to 10 or more once you become familiar with the system. At that point, you really are mechanically defining a lot of your character, and in ways as specific or broad as you'd like them to be.

Aspects can be Invoked as often as you like, IIRC, so they're really at-will abilities rather than per-day.

Knaight
2009-08-08, 10:59 PM
Levels will probably make the system more handleable for my rabble as that's what they're use to. Levelling mechanics in a game also gives a more tangible reward system which allows players to idle in plot development without feeling like they're failing to achieve anything... which again is why its well suited for my bunch. But as you've said it's pretty straight forward to add that in.
Sounds good. Any particular archetypes you want me to whip up? Its mainly just a level based way to handle skills and attributes, I can do a 10 level system easily enough, or I can do starting packages with attached gift trees, which your players should be comfortable with, that allow for more open skill development. Just make gifts 6 experience points each, and give 1-5 experience points per session. Skills are covered in the main rule book. Five Point Fudge is a character creation system you may want to look into, it bears some resemblance to levels while still being very open. Then I just make gift trees, if it doesn't suffice on its own.

If you use five point give a number of free attribute points equal to half the number of attributes, set all attributes at fair, 1 point is one level, you can decrease to gain more points.


It needs to be streamlined so there is little data-mining required to play, and the base rules should be straight forward enough that once explained they shouldn't need to be looked up repeatedly (like grappling rules :smallfurious: scorn). I like the simplicity of Over the Fudge, although I have a feeling that it may be a little too light for some of my players, so that's a good definition of the bottom end of the scale. I can't seem to find much in the way of rules for Blood Sweat and Steel, so if you could direct me towards some of those that'd be great :smallsmile:.
I don't foresee FUDGE based systems in needing much data-mining really due to its basic nature, so what I'm looking for is a small set of rules with lots of emergent rule potential... I also don't require physics grade accuracy in the rules, the reason I'm liking FUDGE is its ambiguous style in attributes which allow more RP play than simulation play.
Levels make attributes and skills really easy to deal with, as does five point, for combat I recommend simultaneous with stances, including for ranged combat (where it simulates the balance between evasion and taking cover against taking aim). For attributes I usually use strength, agility, toughness, and perception, with no real mental attributes, I use medium detailed skills (so sword fighting instead of melee combat, baking in stead of cooking, while avoiding "use model XXI Roman Short Sword" and "Use Electric Wok"). Five point Fudge comes with a skill list that is somewhat medium detailed, and a nice place to start.


None of my lot are big on book keeping and spell list preparation, even my almost munchin player can't stand the effort they require. As such, I'll be avoiding anything along those lines. The genre has yet to be set, but it'll either be firefly grade gunmanship or superpowers, I've already plenty of ideas to flesh either out but I'll not turn down help in the matter :smallwink:
Superpowers are always fun. I really hate spell based systems, so this works for me, however they can tend to lack spice. What you can do is have magic be accessible, but you have to open your mind to the spirit world/the divine/whatever, which has its own risks. Other things that have been successful for me is a noun-verb system, where you combine verb magic skills(create, destroy, attract, repel, perceive, conceal) with noun magic skills (energy, matter, spirit, magic), to make "spells" on the spot, using the lowest skill. I get a sense your players would be comfortable with a mana points type system, and while I personally dislike them they are easy to use. Just give a certain amount of mana for each magic skill they have(1 for up to fair, 2 for good, 3 for great, 4 for superb, 5 for legendary), then have each noun and verb cost a certain amount of mana points(create and destroy cost 4, attract and repel 2, percieve and conceal 1, for nouns magic is 4, spirit 2, energy and matter 1). Allow burning toughness levels temporary for 4 points per level. Note that the cost system works even with a superhero type system. The quantities moved are abstracted and follow the trait ladder, decide on what quantities in fudge terms approximate in real terms before the game.

You might want to be a bit more complex, in which case take a look at Barbarians of Lemuria, with their classes of spells, and come up with something similar, as a multiplier.


Realism is ideal, but streamlined play is the goal, combat has a tendency to get very boggy and eat into limited play time so I want to avoid anything that requires too much paper work to keep track of. Other than that, the general survivability and grittiness of combat is currently unset.
I would recommend the vanilla wound track for speed. Here you have 2 main options.

Cinematic: 1-2 relative degree is a scratch, 3-4 a hurt, 5-6 a very hurt, etc. Either 3 or 4 scratches, 1 or 2 hurts. Wound penalties optional.

Harsh: 1 relative degree is a scratch, 2 a hurt, 3 a very hurt, etc. Include instant killing at 6. 3 scratches, 1 hurt. Wound penalties required.

For a really cinematic version, add hit points in disguise on top of that that can be used to buy dramatic events (http://www.fudgefactor.org/2005/08/cinematic-damage-alternatives.html).

Again, simultaneous combat, use stances, nothing fancy. For weapons and armor I recommend flat ODF and DDF, with bludgeoning ignoring half DDF, keeping the +1 sharpness bonus in the ODF totals. To handle shields I allow a +1 bonus to either offense or defense every round, when deciding the stance. For magic require a roll higher than enemy melee and range rolls to cast successfully, otherwise interference gets in the way. Relative degree determines quantities, and this makes out of combat casting automatically more impressive.


Also, I apologise ahead of time for if any of this turns out to be unreadable, it's late and I'm tired and therefore likely to be less than coherent in places. :smalleek:
No problem. I ask that you extend the same courtesy though, I'm currently jet lagged. Atlanta airport security I'm looking at you. And the air conditioning for good measure.