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View Full Version : Not failing reflex saves on a 1 and the arrow super collider



Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 01:55 PM
Is there any way of not instantly failing a reflex on a 1? I know about the mettle feature that works on fortitude saves, but is there one for reflex saves? it relates the a loop using reflect arrows, infinite deflection, and a pair of monks.
because of this, you have to be able to do this as many times per round as you want. Hopefully the playground can help.

NEO|Phyte
2009-08-08, 01:59 PM
Only thing I can think of is getting Divine Rank of at least 1.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-08, 02:02 PM
The Clerical Pride domain lets you reroll any 1 on a saving throw, once per save. Then there are Luck feats to cover those rare occasions (0.25%) when you roll 2 1s in a row.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-08, 02:06 PM
Tome of Battle. The Diamond Mind maneuver Action Before Thought allows a character to make a Concentration check in place of a reflex save. Since it is a skill check, a 1 is not considered an automatic failure. A non-initiator can take the Martial Study feat and learn this maneuver at level 6 though it will be usable only once per encounter by such a character. A warblade could use it after every (non maneuver) attack.

Edit: And this can't be done infinitely so it doesn't help. Sorry.

obnoxious
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Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 02:07 PM
The Clerical Pride domain lets you reroll any 1 on a saving throw, once per save. Then there are Luck feats to cover those rare occasions (0.25%) when you roll 2 1s in a row.

Thing is, given infinite saves, you'll get 3 1's in a row, or more. For my purposes, I need something that means that one isn't auto fail

Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 02:09 PM
Tome of Battle.

obnoxious
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what maneuver/stance?

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-08, 02:10 PM
what maneuver/stance?

Sorry. I edited it in above.

obnoxious
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raitalin
2009-08-08, 02:12 PM
The 17th level Knight ability Impetuous Endurance.

Iku Rex
2009-08-08, 02:13 PM
The ToB maneuver Action Before Thought and the Kensai PrC Withstand ability turns a reflex save into a concentration check. Skill checks don't fail on a natural 1.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-08, 02:14 PM
You could also play Mutants & Masterminds and simply acquire Immunity: Reflex saves. :smallbiggrin:

not
helpful

Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 02:19 PM
Sorry. I edited it in above.

obnoxious
sig

Sweet.That works perfectly. So, now that i know it works, I shall detail the arrow super collider. Any character with deflect arrows, infinite deflection, that maneuver, and a cohort with the same works. Also, I believe there is a feat in the player's handbook 2 that lets you shoot an arrow that hits all targets in a line. One of the two people needs this. Finally, one of you needs epic dodge.

Here's how it works:
Person one: uses fires an arrow at person 2
Person 2: snatches arrow, fires it back.
Repeat until arrow is moving stupidly fast.
Person with epic dodge willingly fails reflex save.
They then dodge the mach 200,000,000,000 arrow.
???
Profit

Edit: oh, dang. well, this is the plan, for when we find a way to not fail on ones. can you use withstand as much as you want?

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 02:22 PM
So you needed an epic level character to send an arrow going really fast? The peasant railgun can already do that, if you apply real world physics to D&D.

Siosilvar
2009-08-08, 02:24 PM
Edit: oh, dang. well, this is the plan, for when we find a way to not fail on ones. can you use withstand as much as you want?

Yes, but it only works for AoE effects.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-08, 02:26 PM
So you needed an epic level character to send an arrow going really fast?

No, just 2 Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds.

Moriato
2009-08-08, 02:29 PM
In the phb2 there's Steadfast Determination, which makes it so you don't fail fortitude saves on a nat 1. Is there anything out there that lets you make a fortitude save instead of a reflex save?

Siosilvar
2009-08-08, 02:31 PM
No, just 2 Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds.

With a +19 Reflex save...

Eloel
2009-08-08, 02:42 PM
With a +19 Reflex save...

Rogue 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1 Halfling has +14 w/o items (18 base dex), get a cloak.

Rixx
2009-08-08, 02:50 PM
I think you'll have to take a special feat that would let you convince the DM that this is allowable.

Curmudgeon
2009-08-08, 02:51 PM
Rogue 1/Monk 1/Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1 Halfling has +14 w/o items (18 base dex), get a cloak.
Don't forget Favored Souls; they have the same good saves as Monks.

olentu
2009-08-08, 03:31 PM
Are you using the 3.0 version of deflect arrows since I believe that the reflex save was removed in 3.5.

Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 03:34 PM
Are you using the 3.0 version of deflect arrows since I believe that the reflex save was removed in 3.5.

Well what do you know! You're right! So, we don't need reflex save auto success.

Cool.

AstralFire
2009-08-08, 03:36 PM
Infinite Deflection: The worst thought-out feat in the ELH, after Epic Casting.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 04:13 PM
What about Distant Shot or w/e it's called, the one that let's you shoot faster than the speed of light?

Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 04:17 PM
What about Distant Shot or w/e it's called, the one that let's you shoot faster than the speed of light?

Thing is, we can already do that.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-08, 04:22 PM
So. Dex 25.

Monk 2/Whatever 7 Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold: Base DEX 18 + 2 from Race + 4 from an Item + 2 from levels. Total: 26 DEX. 9th level rolls around: Take Infinite Deflection.

Now the only problem with your loop is getting the arrow to hit someone else.

Sliver
2009-08-08, 04:31 PM
Not only the arrow moves faster then light.. So are the monks that throw it among themselves..
I would say that it is a touch attack that catches the opponent flat-footed.. Fast moving and armor won't stop that...

sofawall
2009-08-08, 04:33 PM
Thing is, we can already do that.
Liar.


Nowhere here, on BG, Gleemax or EN World has anyone, to my knowledge, even hit the moon without going epic. And you need to shoot a lot farther than the moon to go to light speed.

AstralFire
2009-08-08, 04:46 PM
What about Distant Shot or w/e it's called, the one that let's you shoot faster than the speed of light?

I consider Infinite Deflection worse because it completely nullifies an entire character type, ranged attackers.

I mean, even if you remove 9th-level/epic spellcasting entirely, it's completely trivial for an epic game with the rest of the classes to consist of just laughing at the archers. It was bad enough in 3.0, Deflect Arrows needing no save now seals it.

All they had to do was make a single feat that lets an epic archer bypass it or get another chance or something. A single one. And it never occurred to them. An Epic Archer against an Epic Monk consists of the archer crying before breaking his bow in two and trying to club the monk with it.

Sliver
2009-08-08, 04:52 PM
And you need to shoot a lot farther than the moon to go to light speed.

Is that assuming that what you throw flies 6 seconds? 'cuz it's not true ya know?
If you throw as a standard action, you could move before. So now it flies less then 6 seconds. Also, it doesn't count in that it takes time for you to throw the item. If you shoot arrows to the moon, and you have stuff like rapid shot, you could shoot about plenty of arrows.. If you assume they are shot with some time between eachother, at least the last arrow has to fly for about a second..
Now, if you can shoot/throw something at the moon, you can probably shoot it at the sun too.

Anyway, as I understand it, in D&D an object's speed is exactly how much it takes the object to reach its destination in the same round.. So if you shoot at the start of your turn at someone who is 10 feet away, the arrow might as well fly with a speed of 1.66 fps, while if you are shooting in the last second at something a couple of miles away.. Well you get the picture..
An arrow is never late, it arrives no later then the end of the turn.

Edit:
An Epic Archer against an Epic Monk consists of the archer crying before breaking his bow in two and trying to club the monk with it.

If its a flaming bow, does the damage add to melee attacks too?

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 05:04 PM
Isn't there a Swordsage stance that lets you shift 5' every time someone misses you? INFINITE MOVEMENT!

ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

EDIT: So, Monk/SS1 readies an action to shoot Monk/SS2 if he tries to initiate a manevuer.

Monk/SS2 initiates Ring of Fire, triggering the readied action.

Arrow bounces back and forth continuously, both monks 5' stepping with each deflection until they travel AROUND THE WORLD.

World bursts into flame and everyone in it takes 12d6 save for half!

Stompy
2009-08-08, 05:32 PM
Sweet.That works perfectly. So, now that i know it works, I shall detail the arrow super collider. Any character with deflect arrows, infinite deflection, that maneuver, and a cohort with the same works. Also, I believe there is a feat in the player's handbook 2 that lets you shoot an arrow that hits all targets in a line. One of the two people needs this. Finally, one of you needs epic dodge.

Here's how it works:
Person one: uses fires an arrow at person 2
Person 2: snatches arrow, fires it back.
Repeat until arrow is moving stupidly fast.
Person with epic dodge willingly fails reflex save.
They then dodge the mach 200,000,000,000 arrow.
???
Profit

Edit: oh, dang. well, this is the plan, for when we find a way to not fail on ones. can you use withstand as much as you want?

They can't play "pass the arrow around" because they have infinite deflections, not infinite "snatch and return fire". When you start this, the monk throws the arrow at the other monk, who deflects it into the ground. (It can't be deflected at the other monk, or else that would be an attack.)

EDIT: Also, as per RAW, that Mach 200,000,000,000 arrow would still deal the same damage as a arrow fired at a normal speed.

EDIT2: The snatch arrow thing does allow this trick, my bad. My physics questions on this are addressed below.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 06:01 PM
Is that assuming that what you throw flies 6 seconds? 'cuz it's not true ya know?
If you throw as a standard action, you could move before. So now it flies less then 6 seconds. Also, it doesn't count in that it takes time for you to throw the item. If you shoot arrows to the moon, and you have stuff like rapid shot, you could shoot about plenty of arrows.. If you assume they are shot with some time between eachother, at least the last arrow has to fly for about a second..
Now, if you can shoot/throw something at the moon, you can probably shoot it at the sun too.

Anyway, as I understand it, in D&D an object's speed is exactly how much it takes the object to reach its destination in the same round.. So if you shoot at the start of your turn at someone who is 10 feet away, the arrow might as well fly with a speed of 1.66 fps, while if you are shooting in the last second at something a couple of miles away.. Well you get the picture..
An arrow is never late, it arrives no later then the end of the turn.

Edit:

If its a flaming bow, does the damage add to melee attacks too?

Oh, we can shoot an arrow 77,204 feet. That's 23 531.7792 meters. It has to go that far in, oh, 7.84935664 10^-5 seconds. I don't think we've gotten quite that many attacks yet.

Oh, and for anyone saying "just use you attack right at the end of your turn! That's an infinitesimally small time for the arrow to travel in!" I respond with taking a 5 ft. step at the same tame. HOLY CRAP, I JUST MOVED LIGHT SPEED LOLZ!

EDIT: In conclusion, we on so totally took that into consideration. Not to mention to hit that range it's a standard action anyway, so it'll be 3 seconds travel time, minimum. (Since Standards can be used as moves, they have to be at least as long, and the shortest standard that is at least as long as a move is 3 seconds.)

Keld Denar
2009-08-08, 06:24 PM
I'll post the physics reasoning of why this trick can't possibly work later.

NOOO!!!!!! Think of the catgirls!!!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-08, 06:34 PM
Sweet.That works perfectly. So, now that i know it works, I shall detail the arrow super collider. Any character with deflect arrows, infinite deflection, that maneuver, and a cohort with the same works. Also, I believe there is a feat in the player's handbook 2 that lets you shoot an arrow that hits all targets in a line. One of the two people needs this. Finally, one of you needs epic dodge.

Here's how it works:
Person one: uses fires an arrow at person 2
Person 2: snatches arrow, fires it back.
Repeat until arrow is moving stupidly fast.
Person with epic dodge willingly fails reflex save.
They then dodge the mach 200,000,000,000 arrow.
???
Profit

Doesn't work. Nothing in the rules says anything about increasing velocity...in fact, I think the fact that you "catch" it and then throw it back (or that you knock it back) suggests not an increase in speed, but rather a moment of equilibrium (speed=0) and then a re-acceleration. So I'd rule that, both RAI and RAW, this doesn't work.

Stompy
2009-08-08, 06:35 PM
NOOO!!!!!! Think of the catgirls!!!

Sorry, had deleted this post (it was supposed to be an edit), but in all fairness, I didn't start it.

Here's what I wanna know.

a) How do said monks change the momentum of the arrow in such a short time, and with the arrow going stupidly fast, that the resulting force doesn't snap their wrist apart?
b) How are these monks even seeing this arrow when it's going MACH 1+?
c) How are you neglecting air resistance?
d) Or friction? They do have to catch the arrow you know.
e) How is this arrow surviving at these speeds?
f) How do the monks throw and then re-empty their hand that fast? (Otherwise, this makes the arrow un-snatchable.)

For you not-catgirl murdering people out there...

g) Does the monk firing the bow have his hands full at the start of this loop? Otherwise, he can't snatch.
h) If this trick works, then could these two monks technically juggle infinite arrows between themselves?

EDIT: No amount of physics is going to change the maximum range (or the to hit, with should probably go down due to these shenanigans) of this arrow, as per RAW.

Indon
2009-08-08, 06:47 PM
World bursts into flame and everyone in it takes 12d6 save for half!

That's magnificent.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 06:48 PM
g) Does the monk firing the bow have his hands full at the start of this loop? Otherwise, he can't snatch.


Free action to drop stuff.

Kyrthain
2009-08-08, 07:01 PM
another infinite movement trick is to have both using bows standing next to each other, with improved combat reflexes and this one feat that lets you take a 5 foot step instead of (after?) making an attack of opportunity. since each shot provokes...

tonberrian
2009-08-08, 07:46 PM
Nowhere here, on BG, Gleemax or EN World has anyone, to my knowledge, even hit the moon without going epic. And you need to shoot a lot farther than the moon to go to light speed.

I can do that at ECL 14 - and hit stars as well. Granted, it uses material from Fiend Folio, which I think is almost 3.5, but not quite, but still.

Race: Dretch (2 HD, 2 LA)

Egoist 2/Swordsage 2/Fiend of Possession 6

Possessions of note - Dorje of Fission (68,250 gp), Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF, 10,000 gp), and a dagger (2 gp) with WBL at 150,000 - more than reasonable, especially since I only need one charge.

I use the Dorje to fission myself in the first round and drop the dagger, and then the clone possesses the dagger in the next round, adding the Distant Shot (+6) enchantment to it, letting me attack any object within line of sight with no penalty for range. Assuming the density of stars is the same as in real life, the nearest one should be about 4.37 lightyears away - yet I can attack one and have my weapon return in approximately six seconds.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 08:53 PM
That is a hilariously poorly worded ability.

EDIT: Seriously, does WotC think when they write this stuff?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-08-08, 08:59 PM
Seriously, does WotC think when they write this stuff?

Evidence points to the contrary. See the following.

-Dragonwrought Kobolds
-Grappling Rules
-Drowning Rules
-Polymorph Spells
-Truenamer Class
-9,000+ other things

sofawall
2009-08-08, 09:02 PM
Granted, it is tough to make something impossible to break, where there are no interpretations but RAW, but honestly, it seems like they didn't even try for some.

Truenamers are the best example, they aren't powerful, their mechanic actually does not work properly.

tonberrian
2009-08-08, 09:09 PM
Someone please explain to me why Dragonwrought Kobolds are broken. I know that it's something to do with being a true dragon and qualifying for epic feats early, but I'm not getting it.

olentu
2009-08-08, 09:25 PM
Someone please explain to me why Dragonwrought Kobolds are broken. I know that it's something to do with being a true dragon and qualifying for epic feats early, but I'm not getting it.

I think it is a passage in the draconomicon that says something to the effect that dragons of at least old age can take epic feats but I might not be remembering it correctly.

Indeed.
2009-08-08, 09:26 PM
Someone please explain to me why Dragonwrought Kobolds are broken. I know that it's something to do with being a true dragon and qualifying for epic feats early, but I'm not getting it.

Way I heard it, it goes like this:

A Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies as a true dragon.

A player character can start at 'Venerable' age.

A Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold can take incredibly powerful feats designed only for ancient/great wyrm dragons and thus have only that as a restriction-which is bypassed by technically being an ancient dragon.

Moriato
2009-08-09, 04:18 PM
There's one problem with this.

You can use deflect arrows whenever you would normally be hit by a ranged attack

You can use snatch arrows when you're using the deflect arrows feat, which lets you throw the thrown weapon back at the attacker, but it doesn't say anything about using the same attack roll, so presumably you make a new attack.

Eventually, one of the monks is going to miss, with a 1 if nothing else, and break the chain

Kyrthain
2009-08-09, 06:17 PM
There's one problem with this.

You can use deflect arrows whenever you would normally be hit by a ranged attack

You can use snatch arrows when you're using the deflect arrows feat, which lets you throw the thrown weapon back at the attacker, but it doesn't say anything about using the same attack roll, so presumably you make a new attack.

Eventually, one of the monks is going to miss, with a 1 if nothing else, and break the chain

Now we just need a way to allow someone to hit you....

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 06:29 PM
I can do that at ECL 14 - and hit stars as well. Granted, it uses material from Fiend Folio, which I think is almost 3.5, but not quite, but still.

Race: Dretch (2 HD, 2 LA)

Egoist 2/Swordsage 2/Fiend of Possession 6

Possessions of note - Dorje of Fission (68,250 gp), Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF, 10,000 gp), and a dagger (2 gp) with WBL at 150,000 - more than reasonable, especially since I only need one charge.

I use the Dorje to fission myself in the first round and drop the dagger, and then the clone possesses the dagger in the next round, adding the Distant Shot (+6) enchantment to it, letting me attack any object within line of sight with no penalty for range. Assuming the density of stars is the same as in real life, the nearest one should be about 4.37 lightyears away - yet I can attack one and have my weapon return in approximately six seconds.

Unfortunately, you cant see the stars or moon. Your spot check is not high enough.

Skorj
2009-08-09, 06:47 PM
Unfortunately, you cant see the stars or moon. Your spot check is not high enough.

Ha! It's true, the moon cannot be spotted, let alone the sun or stars. :smallbiggrin: Now we see the wisdom of the authors!

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-09, 06:55 PM
Now we just need a way to allow someone to hit you....

Monk 1: "I don't dodge. I use my deflect arrows feat. I snatch it then throw it back."

Monk 2: "I do the same thing."

Kyrthain
2009-08-09, 07:23 PM
Monk 1: "I don't dodge. I use my deflect arrows feat. I snatch it then throw it back."

Monk 2: "I do the same thing."

Right. after all, clerics don't need to make touch attacks with cure light wounds.

Faleldir
2009-08-09, 07:28 PM
If you can choose to get hit and still deflect, then there's no chance of a natural 1. What happens if both epic Monks have Warblade/BSB levels, using Thunderous Throw and Pearl Of Black Doubt?

Myrmex
2009-08-09, 07:43 PM
Unfortunately, you cant see the stars or moon. Your spot check is not high enough.

Why not? As long as they don't have concealment, you can see them. Just like in real life!!

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 07:51 PM
Why not? As long as they don't have concealment, you can see them. Just like in real life!!

The distance penalty increases much, much faster than the size bonus. The DC to spot the sun is beyond any character.