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zarakstan
2009-08-08, 08:25 PM
I was just wondering in 3.5 how lax/serious you are about wishes and what kind of wishes you have allowed in the past.

Kaihaku
2009-08-08, 08:28 PM
I once resurrected over 5000 dwarf NPCs with a Miracle... I think the DM was very lax in that situation, more so than I probably would have been, but the Gods were in favor of my request so he rolled a percentile die and decided to go for it.

zarakstan
2009-08-08, 08:35 PM
Woah . . . 5000!

One wish I gave once was to have the person be able to ignore the affects of aging as long as he killed a monster of an appropriate challenge every week.

Elfin
2009-08-08, 08:41 PM
I'm rather lax about wishes, as long as they don't break the game; while it can be fun occasionally to add in a twist it's not that fun to keep screwing players. I'm more prone to just say "the wish can't do that" than to fulfill it in unexpected ways. As long as the players are actively trying to be specific in their request, I won't find a loophole and punish them for it. As long as they're being reasonable, I'll be.

zarakstan
2009-08-08, 08:45 PM
I feel the same way I can't think how I would tell my players they just used 5,000 xp for nothing . . .

jmbrown
2009-08-08, 08:46 PM
I hate wish so much it hurts. One of my buddies in an old game group wished for a gate he could summon ("call" to be specific) creatures from for experience. I granted it not knowing the implications of such a wish and quickly regretted it.

One session the player had a cold so everything he said was muffled. He went to the gate to summon something and sneezed something that sounded like "balor" (we have a rule where everything said at the table is in character). My eyes lit up and I immediately place a balor right next to him.

Balor wins initiative, quicken telekinesis to trip the wizard and summons another balor. The second balor power word stuns the wizard. On the second round the first balor uses blasphemy and dismisses the wizard from his pocket dimension.

At the end of the session I asked my friend how he felt. He gave me this hard look and said "If I wish for my dimension back what are you going to do?" I told him "teleport you back to the gate which is now being used as a staging ground for an invasion of the prime material plane. I mean, you asked for your "dimension back" so I'll give it back..."

Everyone at the table including him loved the twist because it gave a new adventure for their level 19 characters to do.

jindra34
2009-08-08, 08:58 PM
I'm ruthless with wishes that go outside the bounds of the ones stated in the rule books. To the point where players likely fight a herd of tarrasques than step outside of them (about 90% of them resulted in at least one player dieing, and several of the rest had a save or be screwed effect). And being specific realy does not help that much, I'm an expert at corrupting wishes.

truemane
2009-08-08, 08:59 PM
The first thing I do is not allow Wish or Miracle to be memorized as regular spells. I usually place Wishes and Miracles on scrolls as treasure but not allow them to be scribed.

And in most of my game worlds the rule is that when you make a Wish it is granted by the 'nearest' wish-granting being.

So, if you want your wish to granted according to its EXACT wording, find yourself a Temple of a Lawful Deity and go to it. Or, you could always ingratiate yourself to a Good Deity with a quest or donation and THEN make the Wish, expecting its good graces to allow some flexibility in what you say vs. what actually happens. Or, failing that, just make the wish and hope that whoever's nearby granting wishes is sympathetic to your cause. But if some evil demigod is hanging around, look out...

I found this to the be the best way to handle them. I got tired of wishes turning into legal documents and got equally tired of finding ways to pervert the player's intentions. This way, players have to take care with wishes and treat them with the importance they deserve, and allow an in-game way for them to get what they want with a little leg-work.

Elfin
2009-08-08, 09:10 PM
I like that. I think that's the way I'll do wishes from now on.

Altima
2009-08-08, 09:57 PM
I draw the line when players use Wish to create an epic level version without the XP penalties.

Freakin' PCs.

Otherwise, it's a lovely way for me to stretch my RFED muscles.

On the other hand, 9th level spells *should* be near-insane.

Plus Wishes make the *best* adventuring hooks at high levels.

Roderick_BR
2009-08-08, 10:58 PM
I'm rather lax about wishes, as long as they don't break the game; while it can be fun occasionally to add in a twist it's not that fun to keep screwing players. I'm more prone to just say "the wish can't do that" than to fulfill it in unexpected ways. As long as the players are actively trying to be specific in their request, I won't find a loophole and punish them for it. As long as they're being reasonable, I'll be.

I do the same. Interestingly worded wishes, an non-game breaking wishes are fine. Things too absurd, I just tell my players it won't work. Never had players intenionally try to break my games, so I never had to twist wishes too badly.


The first thing I do is not allow Wish or Miracle to be memorized as regular spells. I usually place Wishes and Miracles on scrolls as treasure but not allow them to be scribed.

And in most of my game worlds the rule is that when you make a Wish it is granted by the 'nearest' wish-granting being.

So, if you want your wish to granted according to its EXACT wording, find yourself a Temple of a Lawful Deity and go to it. Or, you could always ingratiate yourself to a Good Deity with a quest or donation and THEN make the Wish, expecting its good graces to allow some flexibility in what you say vs. what actually happens. Or, failing that, just make the wish and hope that whoever's nearby granting wishes is sympathetic to your cause. But if some evil demigod is hanging around, look out...(...)
I like that. One option I've been doing is to remove Limited Wish from the game, then use the Wish/Miracle with only the "reproduce lower level spells" effect. Anything world changing, can only be granted by powerful beings.

PId6
2009-08-08, 11:00 PM
"I wish to receive 10,000 XP."

Sanguine
2009-08-08, 11:01 PM
"I wish to receive 10,000 XP."

Granted, here are 10,000 windows XP disks.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 11:01 PM
Another way of doing I think would work it is that Miracle is, you know, actually getting your Deity to intervene and not just a divine Wish like spell. Memorize it and use it to cast greater teleport? Your deity may be OK with it, but be a little annoyed, or flat out say "hell no, stop wasting my time and hire a wage mage." Use it to do something that's against the deity, and instead you get a bunch of really annoyed outsiders killing you. Use it to actually greatly aid the Deity, or when it's really necessary, and your god is more sympathetic. So yeah... make it an actual miracle granted to the strongest of the god's followers.

quick_comment
2009-08-08, 11:08 PM
If a wish is reasonable (and you know when its reasonable), then I grant it. That is, if it is in line with the power of an 8th level spell effect, or one of the other listed effects, it happens, no shennagians.

If you wish for a 9th level spell, or equivalent effect, I might grant it if thematically or cinematically appropriate. (For instance, a fire elemental savant using wish to summon a fire creature, emulating gate)

Anything more, and its almost sure to explode in your face.

Talic
2009-08-08, 11:37 PM
I evaluate a wish. If I can accomplish what it wants with any spell that meets wish's guidelines, or a similar power effect, I grant it in spirit and letter.

If the spirit of the wish is too powerful, I look for a way to partially fulfill it, or accomplish it to a lesser degree, following the intent of the wish as much as possible.

If the wish is intended to break the game or create an imbalance, then I seek to pervert the intent of the wish to provide a monkey's paw wish.

PId6
2009-08-08, 11:39 PM
Granted, here are 10,000 windows XP disks.
Meh, still better than Vista.

sofawall
2009-08-08, 11:41 PM
I never use wish as written. Wishes are miracles granted by a deity of magic.

Any wish/miracle is a request to a god. If it's small, you'll likely get it, maybe even something better. If it's too much, the god may get offended/annoyed and ignore/smite you. If it's trivial, the god will be annoyed, with consequences to follow.

Of course, if you ask for something in line with what the deity likes, well, that's a good chance of awesome, right there.

Milskidasith
2009-08-08, 11:45 PM
I think along the same terms of Sofawall, but I'd like to add one thing: If you are a level 17 cleric of X, then saving your life is almost definitely going to be in line with the deities best interests, since, well, level 17 characters are fairly close to being godlike themselves.

Talic
2009-08-08, 11:50 PM
Meh, still better than Vista.

Depends. Vista is a much bigger resource hog, but it's capable of processing more advanced graphics applications. If your PC is awesome, Vista can be a worthwhile addition. I have mine set up to tri-boot. I can select between Linux, XP, and Vista.

tyckspoon
2009-08-09, 12:04 AM
I usually start by looking at whether or not the XP cost of the Wish is being paid, and if so how and by who. If you're casting the Wish yourself and paying the full 5,000 XP, you get whatever the spirit of your Wish was and generally full or almost full completion. I take the XP cost to mean that you personally are driving the power of the Wish, and unless your name happens to be Arnold Rimmer you're not going to pervert your own Wish. So go ahead and Wish to be immortal, if you're willing to burn 5,000 XP on it you get it (plus a Timeless Body effect as per the Druid/Monk class feature, as remaining in good physical health is generally part of the spirit of an immortality Wish.)

If you bought the Wish with gold, as in a Ring of Three Wishes or a Luckblade, then your Wishes still generally aren't perverted but they are less effective at fulfilling desires outside the 'safe' list. If you want immortality from the Ring, it may take two or even all three Wishes- the first one gives you Timeless Body, the second one extends any age categories you haven't yet reached by half, the third one removes the limit on your Venerable category altogether. Or maybe you want to be a different race; the first Wish turns you into that race with a Shapechange-like effect that has a duration of Permanent, and the second Wish makes that effect Instantaneous so it can't be stripped with a Dispel or Disjunction (the third Wish may be needed if you want to become something notably more powerful than your current race.)

Wishes granted for free/really cheap, as spell-likes or supernatural abilities, are the most limited. They stick to the safe list entirely; if you ask for something outside that, it just does nothing (make up your own reason; I go with the XP component being the source of Wish's reality-altering power, and if you bypass that you just get a really versatile 9th-level spell.) The exception is things like a Pit Fiend's once-a-year Wish; if you want to make use of that, keep in mind that the Pit Fiend, not you, is the agent of the Wish, and asking Devils for favors is usually a bad idea.

Sanguine
2009-08-09, 12:07 AM
What about Noble Djiin?

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 12:13 AM
asking Devils for favors is usually a bad idea.

Even mindraped devils?

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-09, 12:18 AM
I've never subscribed to the school of thought where Wish/Miracle can't be used to do anything that couldn't be accomplished by a fifteenth level cleric.

There's a pretty simple method for dealing with Wish use vs. Wish abuse. Just decide when the player casts a wish which cosmic force/deity is going to handle it.

"I wish something exciting would happen," is just DM gold. This wish will be handled by the Powers of Chaos in your campaign, and they'll use it to shunt pure chaos into the world, just for a moment, and now any crazy thing can happen with little or no justification, perhaps even starting an all new adventure. That said, I've never heard of a player wishing for this outside of Baldur's Gate II.

"I wish for [overpowered wish here]," is when you need to intercede. If, for some reason, the players like to play twist-the-wish with their DM, then that's alright, otherwise, the correct response is "Boccob takes notice of your sudden surge in power. All rumor to the contrary, he really does care about some things, and he uses a wish to undo your wish, restoring balance to the land." Frankly, your players should know better than to ask for a quintillion experience points, the loss of 5000xp should remind them of that.

There are good wishes though, that aren't in the list. And of course, some of what's on the list is alright. "I wish I were a lot faster/smarter/stronger," while not worded in such a way that it can't be twisted, is probably not worth foiling. Just give the player an ability score bump and let him be happy. Some good ones that I've heard:

Miracle: Used by a desperate cleric, who was the last standing member of his party and surrounded by a lot of enemies, to "turn the tide of this battle." The DM ruled that the god in question granted this by slapping a True Resurrection on everyone in the party, allowing them to win the day. That's probably more bang for his buck than the cleric could normally get out of a miracle, but it was dramatically appropriate, completely in character for both the cleric and the good-aligned god he was calling on, and allowed the group to keep adventuring, so this was basically a win all around.

Wish: Used by a sorcerer to "give [the BBEG] a compelling reason to abandon her plans." This was used as a plot point in the campaign - the PCs set out to convince the BBEG to quit instead of killing her outright by reinforcing the situations that arose from the wish.

Wish: Used by a loremaster to aquire the knowledge necessary of how to build a practical airship, which was also later used as both a plot point and an awesome ride.


So wishacle isn't the most horrible thing in the world. It just requires the players to be slightly reasonable and moderately intelligent at the same time.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 12:56 AM
Miracle: Used by a desperate cleric, who was the last standing member of his party and surrounded by a lot of enemies, to "turn the tide of this battle." The DM ruled that the god in question granted this by slapping a True Resurrection on everyone in the party, allowing them to win the day. That's probably more bang for his buck than the cleric could normally get out of a miracle, but it was dramatically appropriate, completely in character for both the cleric and the good-aligned god he was calling on, and allowed the group to keep adventuring, so this was basically a win all around.



This is explictly an option for a greater Miracle. Maybe not the true ressurection rather than raise dead, (I would probably just grant chained revenence), but its not totally out of line.


When I run a game, I have a rule. Just like putting one extradimension space in another results in a planar rift or whatever, any interaction whatsoever between wishes and gates/candles of invocations causes the wisher to permanently lose all spellcasting or manifesting abilities, just like using disjunction on an artifact.

ondonaflash
2009-08-09, 01:07 AM
My cousin and I were discussing the wish spell in depth several months ago and we basically came to the conclusion that the Wish spell is meant for a very specific purpose: If you use wish it is with the intent that you skip, or undo a specific part of an adventure at the cost of experience. What that means, is that if you cast the spell, not only do you lose the experience in the spell cost, but you also lose the experience you would have gotten from encounters and xp gain. Wish should be used sparingly and with the intent that if the player uses it, then yes, the villain's plot is suddenly derailed, but your character lost the xp he'd get from fighting all those monsters, and the sub-villain you had concocted, and now the villain is wicked pissed and aware of your existence.

If they use Wish to make money, or a magic item it should come back to haunt them in some way, maybe the item has ego and if they had quested for it they would have gained the levels they needed to overcome it, but now they don't. The point of Wish was to be a "Get out of lame adventure free" card, and it should be treated thus, with all the consequences that entails.

You shouldn't allow them to wish for XP, its asking for punishment.

sofawall
2009-08-09, 01:10 AM
Extradimensional spaces are not dangerous in and of themselves. Only Portable Holes and Bags of Holding are screwed with.

Which is odd, because the Handy Haversack and Rope Trick are all in Core, yet not mentioned, so it's not just a problem with other books coming later.

Xenogears
2009-08-09, 01:11 AM
This is explictly an option for a greater Miracle. Maybe not the true ressurection rather than raise dead, (I would probably just grant chained revenence), but its not totally out of line.

Technically the example (If i remember right. also from 3.0 players handbook) was an entire army brought back for the rest of the fight. So changing it from tens of or even hundreds of thousands to probably 4-5 at most seems fair to make it permanent.

Edit:
Extradimensional spaces are not dangerous in and of themselves. Only Portable Holes and Bags of Holding are screwed with.

Which is odd, because the Handy Haversack and Rope Trick are all in Core, yet not mentioned, so it's not just a problem with other books coming later.

Some of them (I forget which) say that "Bringing an extradimensional space inside another extradimensional space is hazerdous) but doesn't list the hazard....

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 01:11 AM
The example just says raising fallen allies. It never mentions numbers.

sofawall
2009-08-09, 01:25 AM
Some of them (I forget which) say that "Bringing an extradimensional space inside another extradimensional space is hazardous) but doesn't list the hazard....

Either Rope Trick or the Haversack, maybe both, but as it was never mentioned what the danger was (or mentioned in any other book about there even being one) I only invoke that to stop infinite carrying limits.

Hell, what am I saying, I don't invoke carrying limits on tiny 4 str pixies. I only care about encumbrance for flying. That's about it.

Xenogears
2009-08-09, 01:30 AM
Either Rope Trick or the Haversack, maybe both, but as it was never mentioned what the danger was (or mentioned in any other book about there even being one) I only invoke that to stop infinite carrying limits.

Hell, what am I saying, I don't invoke carrying limits on tiny 4 str pixies. I only care about encumbrance for flying. That's about it.

I find it amusing that your quote of me has a typo that is not in my post.... One would think that I had edited it out but that would be vain and not nearly so funny as this...

Oh right. More on point. I'm pretty sure that its either rope trick or mordenkains mansion because last time it came up was in a discussion about how a wizard would spend all night in one of them to prevent night attacks. I think the unnamed hazard is a good way of stopping your players from doing this every night. An ambush is a darn good tactic and the players shouldn't completely eliminate it. Sure set traps, alarm spell, a watch, whatever but one spell shouldn't make it impossible...

Seffbasilisk
2009-08-09, 01:40 AM
I allow Miracles, if they ask the right dieties for the right things, and don't seem like they'd unbalance the game.

Wish spells I have stick to the limitations listed, or I give the players one of my famous smiles. They generally go back to within said limitations. If they don't catch the hint, I pervert the wish as much as I can. Wish is reshaping the multiverse around your words...so you have to be very careful in the wording, and even then, if you overreach, you're likely to end up with your hand on something you really don't want.

sofawall
2009-08-09, 01:45 AM
I find it amusing that your quote of me has a typo that is not in my post.... One would think that I had edited it out but that would be vain and not nearly so funny as this...

Oh, wow, your one typo is fixed, but now so is the second one? Amazing things, those quote boxes... :P


last time it came up was in a discussion about how a wizard would spend all night in one of them to prevent night attacks.

That was where I remembered it from, thank you. Rope Trick, it was.

Xenogears
2009-08-09, 01:46 AM
I think perverting the wish to purposefully punish the players is just mean. Now if they wish for something ludicrous then sure. But say if they wish for something more than it allows for but still (semi) reasonable than maybe twist it so they get something good but not quite what they want. Or even if it is Ludicrous give them something useless but not deadly. Message gets across. They blew 5k xp for nothing too.

Example: "I wish for a ton of experience"
"Sure. You now have all the memories of a random 80 year old man. Congrats. He never did anything important but you have enough boring stories about the winter of 70'ot Eleventy-Twelve than you'll ever need."

PId6
2009-08-09, 01:58 AM
Example: "I wish for a ton of experience"
"Sure. You now have all the memories of a random 80 year old man. Congrats. He never did anything important but you have enough boring stories about the winter of 70'ot Eleventy-Twelve than you'll ever need."
That could easily backfire. What if he asks you to relate them all?

Xenogears
2009-08-09, 02:00 AM
That could easily backfire. What if he asks you to relate them all?

Oh I have them all saved on an audio file on my laptop. I transfer them to a CD and tell him to listen to them on his own time. When(if?) he actually does then all he hears is Dennis Leary's song "I'm an A-Hole"

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 02:00 AM
That could easily backfire. What if he asks you to relate them all?

You throw a copy of ethan frome at him. Is that enough boring stories about the winter for you?


Or you tell him to stop confusing in and out of character knowledge.

Xenogears
2009-08-09, 02:02 AM
You throw a copy of ethan frome at him. Is that enough boring stories about the winter for you?


Or you tell him to stop confusing in and out of character knowledge.

Ya know. I thought my plan was both evil and awesome but forcing the guy to read that book? Gah I'm glad im not in high school anymore.

Twilight Jack
2009-08-09, 02:54 AM
My thoughts on wish are pretty simple, actually. I find that if you keep in-game and out-of-game knowledge sufficiently seperate, wish presents far fewer problems than many folks might imagine. No wizard can possibly wish for 10,000 XP, because the very concept of experience points is an out-of-game abstraction which has no meaning for him. All that he understands is that the process of reordering reality to his own liking requires an investment of his pure self in raw intent and power, much like the creation of an enchanted item.

From there, just understand that every wish is granted in the way which reorders reality in the least intrusive way. You're reworking the world by a sheer effort of will. It need not be instantaneous, and it will almost always be subtle, unless it falls within the parameters of the spell's PHB examples. If you wish for the Amulet of Yendor, it does not merely appear in your hand. Rather, events will conspire to bring it swiftly into your possession from the place where it currently resides, through coincidence and confluence. This ensures that every wish is also a plot-hook, as Rodney is likely to come looking for his missing amulet.

Miracles are different. They involve direct divine intervention and so are far less limited. Assuming, of course, that they work at all. As a DM, I'm far more likely to flatly refuse a miracle. After all, a deity only performs one of those if the requested action is aligned with its will. If the god is cool with what you're asking, a miracle goes off without a hitch. If the god ain't cool, you don't get your miracle. If the god is only somewhat cool with it, than you get what the god wants to give you.

PId6
2009-08-09, 02:59 AM
What about Reality Revision? Nobody remembers psionics? :smalltongue:

The New Bruceski
2009-08-09, 03:39 AM
Miracles are different. They involve direct divine intervention and so are far less limited. Assuming, of course, that they work at all. As a DM, I'm far more likely to flatly refuse a miracle. After all, a deity only performs one of those if the requested action is aligned with its will. If the god is cool with what you're asking, a miracle goes off without a hitch. If the god ain't cool, you don't get your miracle. If the god is only somewhat cool with it, than you get what the god wants to give you.

Just make sure you don't ask Olidammara for a Miracle, that's likely to end up as a Vengeful Genie Wish.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:35 AM
For my wishes/miracles I don't let my players cast them they have to find items to do so, so I let the wishes/miracles do great things. . .

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-09, 09:06 AM
What about Reality Revision? Nobody remembers psionics? :smalltongue:

Syy-ooonn-icks???? Sorry, never heard of them. :smallbiggrin:

Ninetail
2009-08-09, 07:55 PM
I was just wondering in 3.5 how lax/serious you are about wishes and what kind of wishes you have allowed in the past.

How I run them depends primarily on the granter, and secondarily on the phrasing.

If they get a wish from a friendly demigod, then their wish is granted using the most favorable interpretation, even if that requires extra "work" to grant. If faced with a complex wish, there's a good chance the granter will frown and ask for clarification. If they ask for something beyond a wish's power, the granter will say so and ask a second time what they wish for, and perhaps advise them about how much of their request could be granted.

If they deal with a devil or force an efreet to grant them a wish, then their wish will be granted with a twist based on their wording, if at all possible, even if that requires extra "work" to grant. If they're in a position to do so, such an entity will insist on a formal contract, with complex language that it will try to turn to its advantage. If the PCs can force them to grant a simply-phrased wish, the consequences probably won't be too bad, though. If they ask for something beyond a wish's power, the granter might simply say so (which still "uses" their wish), or might grant as much as he's capable of, if he thinks the wish will bring harm to the wisher.

If they get a wish from a neutral source, like a magic item, then their wish will be granted as stated, via the path of least resistance. However, neutral wishes are almost without exception inherently opposed to complex constructs of language. The more complicated the wish gets, the more likely it is that something goes wrong. Make a simple wish, like you read about in folktales, and you probably get what you want, maybe with minor consequences. Make a wish using lawyer's language, and you get what you deserve. If they ask for something beyond the wish's power, they get as much as the wish is able to grant, and it is expended.

I usually don't allow the spells to be learned and memorized, but when I do, clerics get the friendly wishgranter (they're asking their deity directly for aid) and wizards get the neutral one (they're causing a direct localized change to the fabric of the universe).

Scrolls of Wish exist, but they're not standard spells. Rather, they're already-drawn-up contracts with specific entities. Kind of like a magical blank check... as long as you trust the bank it's drawn on.

Dervag
2009-08-09, 08:12 PM
If they get a wish from a friendly demigod, then their wish is granted using the most favorable interpretation, even if that requires extra "work" to grant. If faced with a complex wish, there's a good chance the granter will frown and ask for clarification. If they ask for something beyond a wish's power, the granter will say so and ask a second time what they wish for, and perhaps advise them about how much of their request could be granted.

If they deal with a devil or force an efreet to grant them a wish, then their wish will be granted with a twist based on their wording, if at all possible, even if that requires extra "work" to grant. If they're in a position to do so, such an entity will insist on a formal contract, with complex language that it will try to turn to its advantage. If the PCs can force them to grant a simply-phrased wish, the consequences probably won't be too bad, though. If they ask for something beyond a wish's power, the granter might simply say so (which still "uses" their wish), or might grant as much as he's capable of, if he thinks the wish will bring harm to the wisher.In both these cases, I would append "within reason." A friendly power will only twist the wish in the wisher's favor so far; wish to be blown into itty bitty little pieces and there's not much for it unless they outright refuse. Likewise, an unfriendly power will only go so far. Give a devil a forty-page contract for a wish compiled by a dozen hyperintelligent lawyers and theologians, and he may have to shrug and say "Yup, you beat me at my own game, I'll grant you that wish, you bastard you."


If they get a wish from a neutral source, like a magic item, then their wish will be granted as stated, via the path of least resistance. However, neutral wishes are almost without exception inherently opposed to complex constructs of language. The more complicated the wish gets, the more likely it is that something goes wrong.I like that.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 08:17 PM
Dont forget, wish doesnt say that is has to go exactly according to the wording.

If you have a dozen hyperintelligent lawyers help you phrase your wish, you can simply get a partial fulfillment.

For instance, you, in super-lawyerese, wish for a million gold pieces. Wish cant do that. You get 25,000gp.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-09, 08:58 PM
All this talk of Wishes and no mention of Pazuzu?

Altima
2009-08-09, 11:30 PM
Wish vs. Miracle--Miracle is part of divinity. It, like all divine spells and abilities, draw upon a deity. A thinking deity, who has rules and opinions of her own. A deity who is both willing and capable of cutting off someone's power.

I'd say that using miracle for anything other than life-or-death necessity runs the risk of said divine caster over-annoying its deity.

Wish, however, draws from the arcane. The arcane draws upon the person. Clerics rely on their god; wizards rely on themselves. However, magic itself is a non-entity. It's uncaring, unthinking, and unfeeling. Thus is can be the greatest thing ever, and an annoying git. Sometimes both at once.

Wish is something that, really, the players should have to ask for in-character.

"I wish for a million gold pieces." The wish grants this by creating a pile of granulated gold pieces--one million of them, in fact. It's collectively equal to maybe 10gp.

"I wish for 10,000xp." At which point, the wish creates a CR appropriate creature that would give ten thousand xp if the summoner killed it. After all, Wish eats experience--it doesn't directly grant it. Given that it requires a 17th level caster (at least) to cast wish, we're talking about an epic level creature. Maybe with quickened Mordenkainen's Disjunction and anti-magic field...

Lamech
2009-08-10, 12:24 AM
My thoughts on wish are pretty simple, actually. I find that if you keep in-game and out-of-game knowledge sufficiently seperate, wish presents far fewer problems than many folks might imagine. No wizard can possibly wish for 10,000 XP, because the very concept of experience points is an out-of-game abstraction which has no meaning for him. All that he understands is that the process of reordering reality to his own liking requires an investment of his pure self in raw intent and power, much like the creation of an enchanted item.So he can ask for two wishes worth of "pure self". An "experience point" would be the smallest amount of "pure self" that the wizard can invest. Its generally assumed that what the players say is translated to whatever made up language in the game, so complaining when a wizard says "experience points"? Not valid. Unless your saying a wizard does not in fact realize that using spells with an XP cost keeps them back in power, does not know if he is capable of making an item or casting a xp using spell, and so forth...

I personally would a wizard who wished for 10,000 xp points 10,000 small beads, each capable of defraying the xp cost of something by one point. Once. Not usable together.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-10, 12:51 AM
So he can ask for two wishes worth of "pure self". An "experience point" would be the smallest amount of "pure self" that the wizard can invest. Its generally assumed that what the players say is translated to whatever made up language in the game, so complaining when a wizard says "experience points"? Not valid. Unless your saying a wizard does not in fact realize that using spells with an XP cost keeps them back in power, does not know if he is capable of making an item or casting a xp using spell, and so forth...

I personally would a wizard who wished for 10,000 xp points 10,000 small beads, each capable of defraying the xp cost of something by one point. Once. Not usable together.

Ah, but what if he just wishes to be granted three additional wishes?

At some point you just need to make it clear to the players, in character or out of character, that a wizard who discovers a reality bending spell and goes nuts with it is going to be slapped down hard by powers that he probably hasn't even heard of.

Unrelated:
Wish lawyering is a fun minigame, though. I liked the way BGII did it - a genie shows up wearing a pair of glasses and with a briefcase full of legal papers. Your character gets a choice of what to wish for based on either their INT score or their WIS (Can't remember), and selecting each one can trigger a "good" or "bad" ending depending on what the character's WIS score was - the less ambitious wishes could be attained even with a low wisdom, while the wilder ones required a character to be very savvy indeed. Not all the wishes were a good idea to begin with, though - some of them had a bad ending that matched the good ending of another.

lothos
2009-08-10, 07:31 PM
Ah, but what if he just wishes to be granted three additional wishes?

The 1st Edition AD&D DM's guide had some quite interesting guidance on how to twist unreasonable wishes. In the case of a character wishing for more wishes, the character would fall in to an infinite time loop, effectivly being removed from the game forever, continually wishing for more wishes outside of time.

There were a couple of others that stick in my memory too.

Someone wishing for an unreasonable amount of treasure (say 1,000,000gp) would get that, but in some way that was useless. For example, the treasure appears, but all the coins are stuck together in a lump in a way that they can never be used. Or they are all guarded by the most fearsome demon prince of the Abyss.

Someone wishing another PC dead would themselves be transported forward in time to a point where that character had died anyway.....

In 1st Edition, there was no such thing as a "Miracle" spell. There was Wish (9th level Magic User (Wizard)), Limited Wish (7th Level Magic User) and Alter Reality (7th Level illusionist).

The DM's guide stated that all 3 of these were actually granted by the nearest being capable of granting a wish, even though they are arcane magic. So if you wish for something while on a lower plane, you had a LOT of problems.

I used to DM with one guy who was a consummate rules lawyer. He needed to use a wish in the 9 Hells and his wish was granted by an Archdevil. He knew this would happen, so wrote out about 4 pages of the wording of the wish to try and ensure it didn't get twisted. In fact his wish was quite reasonable (wishing 4 party members back to life). If this wish had been made anywhere but a lower plane, I'd have allowed it no hassle. But he knew he was taking a risk and 4 pages of lawyer-ese was a challenge :-)

The thing is, he remembered a lot of things like "and they don't die right again afterwards" and "they are restored to full health". He even tried to make sure they were not changed in to another species by specifying that they be in "their original form". Bingo.

They all were re-generated as a foetus.

In the nine hells.

With a LOT of devils who were very hungry.

Ah, it was fun.

Jade_Tarem
2009-08-10, 10:08 PM
The 1st Edition AD&D DM's guide had some quite interesting guidance on how to twist unreasonable wishes. In the case of a character wishing for more wishes, the character would fall in to an infinite time loop, effectivly being removed from the game forever, continually wishing for more wishes outside of time.

There were a couple of others that stick in my memory too.

Someone wishing for an unreasonable amount of treasure (say 1,000,000gp) would get that, but in some way that was useless. For example, the treasure appears, but all the coins are stuck together in a lump in a way that they can never be used. Or they are all guarded by the most fearsome demon prince of the Abyss.

Someone wishing another PC dead would themselves be transported forward in time to a point where that character had died anyway.....

In 1st Edition, there was no such thing as a "Miracle" spell. There was Wish (9th level Magic User (Wizard)), Limited Wish (7th Level Magic User) and Alter Reality (7th Level illusionist).

The DM's guide stated that all 3 of these were actually granted by the nearest being capable of granting a wish, even though they are arcane magic. So if you wish for something while on a lower plane, you had a LOT of problems.

I used to DM with one guy who was a consummate rules lawyer. He needed to use a wish in the 9 Hells and his wish was granted by an Archdevil. He knew this would happen, so wrote out about 4 pages of the wording of the wish to try and ensure it didn't get twisted. In fact his wish was quite reasonable (wishing 4 party members back to life). If this wish had been made anywhere but a lower plane, I'd have allowed it no hassle. But he knew he was taking a risk and 4 pages of lawyer-ese was a challenge :-)

The thing is, he remembered a lot of things like "and they don't die right again afterwards" and "they are restored to full health". He even tried to make sure they were not changed in to another species by specifying that they be in "their original form". Bingo.

They all were re-generated as a foetus.

In the nine hells.

With a LOT of devils who were very hungry.

Ah, it was fun.

Ah, good times. I had a friend who once wished for the greatest axe in the world. Some kind of troll adventurer found him, and left the awesome axe. In his skull.

I recall a wish for a hojillion gold pieces that ended up with them all appearing sixty feet above the wishing player. Gold pieces fall, he dies.

I wasn't the DM either of these times, but yeah, wish can provide an amusing way to kill a PC. :smallamused:

Lysander
2009-08-10, 10:53 PM
The thing about rules lawyering and careful wish phrasing is...would reality really care about your grammar? Wish is asking the universe to change. Reality is a smart cookie. It knows you want to be given a sandwich, not to be transformed into a sandwich.

So instead of viewing wish as a grammar conscious lawyer, I view it kind of like being friends with Bill Gates.

"Hi Bill Gates!", you say.
"Hey pal," says your friends Bill Gates. "Want me to buy you something?"

Bill Gates will get you anything you ask for that he can afford. "I want my own amusement park!" "Sure friend" "Jet pack! Now!" "Coming right up!" "An obedient poodle army!" "I'll call a trainer"

But somethings are beyond Bill Gate's reach. "I want the moon to be made of gold, and I want to have the moon." "Sorry pal, 30 billion only goes so far. Doesn't cover lunar alchemy and possessions. Would you like to visit the moon maybe? I might be able to call in a favor from NASA"

So if you ask for something beyond Wish's power it'll just shrug and give you something as close to what you asked as possible. I generally view Wish's power at maximum to be what one level 20 wizard could accomplish over the course of a day using all their spells other than wish, but for just one specific goal. That's still quite a lot.

Swordguy
2009-08-10, 11:45 PM
Miracle is fairly simple for me. Priest asks for a favor from his diety, deity reviews the request and then grants it in the manner the deity finds most suitable (so if the cleric's been naughty, then there may be a bit of a lesson in there from the deity not granting it quite the way the cleric wants). Generally speaking, though, the cleric will get his Miracle - unless he's constantly asking for them (Gods have better things to do). The fact that your Miracle generally gets granted according to its spirit helps offset having to play by the deities Code of Conduct/Alignment Guidelines. Of course, a cleric without a deity to judge the intent behind the Miracle may find things a bit more dicey...



As for Wish...it's complicated. There's a BUNCH of factors that go into it.

-First factor is if the Wizard is asking for one of the specific listed effects of a Wish, it'll pretty much always work as intended. That's a given. If a Wizard asks for something outside the listed possibilities (or if I'm playing 2e), then other stuff comes into play.

-Next is the source of the Wish. Wishes granted by Good-aligned beings are MUCH more reliable than a Wish granted by Pazzuzu, for example, with the caster's memorized Wish spell setting the bar for "average".

-Next factor is the power level or game-breaking factor of the Wish. Casters who are deliberately trying to become ultra-powerful or break the game will find their Wishes subverted far more often than a caster who wished for an item that's 1gp over the limit.

-Next factor is the Dramatic Appropriateness of the Wish. A wish is, in my eyes, immensely powerful magic, above and beyond even other 9th level spells (sort of 9.4999th level...not QUITE epic, but better than other 9th level stuff). You're literally rewriting reality. The aftereffects and ramifications of casting a Wish Spell should rival those immediately following the words, "You may fire when ready, Governor Tarkin." Thus, a caster who blows a Wish spell in a Dramatically Appropriate moment or in final, epic desperation will get a LOT less subversion than somebody who grinds NPCs 3 levels below him for XP so he can chain-cast Wishes during every instance of moderately lengthy downtime.

-The next factor is the metagame wording of the wish. Wishing for XP is a bad idea - XP doesn't exist for the characters. The wish needs to be phrased clearly and in-character.

-The final factor is how much of a power-gaming douche the player is. I run very character-centric games, where a complete lack of optimization is the norm; Bards, Monks, Evoker Casters and Fighters are quite common at my table, while Tippy Wizards, DMM Clerics, Uberchargers, and Natural Spell Druids with Fleshrakers are not whatsoever welcome. This is clearly understood by all my players, because I hand them a sheet of paper with that very point written on it in Large, Friendly Letters when they join my group - they must read it, sign it, give it back, and recite it before they create characters. People who annoy me by breaking that table agreement are going to get ZERO leeway in their Wishes from me. You'd better actually have a lawyer draft your document, because I'll go through it line-by-line looking for loopholes. Granted, I'll generally do that anyway if you're asking a being from the Lower Planes for a wish, but players like this will get this treatment all the time.


For record, the most intelligent wish I've ever heard was "I wish all my future wishes will be granted according to the intent behind the wish, not the specific wording or loopholes therein." The guy never actually cast another Wish in the campaign, but he would have been completely covered had he done so. Brilliant.

Deth Muncher
2009-08-11, 02:56 AM
For record, the most intelligent wish I've ever heard was "I wish all my future wishes will be granted according to the intent behind the wish, not the specific wording or loopholes therein." The guy never actually cast another Wish in the campaign, but he would have been completely covered had he done so. Brilliant.

Oh man. I am SO doing that.

MickJay
2009-08-11, 08:59 AM
That is a very reasonable approach, but is it really within the power of Wish to grant that? You are using a single Wish to ensure all of the future Wishes, ever, to be always fulfilled exactly as you want, regardless of who is granting them and regardless of what you're asking for. It's your intent to get 1.000.000 gold without strings attached? Your previous Wish made sure you'll get a nice, unguarded, usable heap of gold that can be spent in any way you want without effort (except perhaps one required to transport the whole amount). You Wish that all your enemies are to drop dead? Done, and you are still alive, even if you are your own greatest enemy :smalltongue: . You wish to receive a piece of equipment worthy of the most powerful mage in the world? It happens, but it isn't still being worn by the most powerful mage, and even if it belonged to a mage, they won't get angry at you - you get an artifact, with no strings attached. etc, etc.

At best, my response would be "granted, but it will only ensure that the next Wish you receive from a friendly or neutral source will be fulfilled this way, and only if it is not highly unreasonable". At worst, the next wish would be granted after the wisher's brain was thoroughly scanned, picked apart and reassembled, to make sure the intent was read correctly (with no guarantee that the brain would be left entirelyas before), and the one granting the Wish would have access to all the knowledge and secrets of the wisher.

Rixx
2009-08-11, 12:48 PM
Well, it's really only protecting the wizard from wishes going wrong via misinterpretation of his commands. The wish is still limited in power.

Ninetail
2009-08-12, 05:00 AM
That is a very reasonable approach, but is it really within the power of Wish to grant that? You are using a single Wish to ensure all of the future Wishes, ever, to be always fulfilled exactly as you want, regardless of who is granting them and regardless of what you're asking for.

The short answer is, it depends on just how common wishes are.

I'm guessing they're pretty rare in Swordguy's campaign, as they are in mine. With that in mind, spending a wish in order to insure future wishes (that might or might not happen) seems pretty fair.

On the other hand, if you're gating and mindraping efreeti every day, yeah, that's a bit much to ask from a single wish.