Wait, two suns?

[King of Nowhere]

Ok, in the last panel of strip 672 in the left part is depicted a sunset, as if the sun was low in the sky in th eleft of the page.
Yet the sun appears high in the right of the screen.

Is it an art mistake or am I missing something?

[daggaz]

Huh maybe..

I just saw it as a kinda deserty veil, to highlight the fact that they are going to a burning-sands kind of environment.

[FoE]

The left portion of the panel doesn't seem like sunset to me. It looks more like an aura of ... something ... that hangs over the Western Continent.

Notice that the only clouds in the sky are above the shoreline ...

[ref]

The second sun in the right could actually be the moon.

[Shpadoinkle]

The "sun" on the left is probably just a bunch of dust kicked up by the wind. They ARE going to a desert.

[Cleverdan22]

Its not a sun on the left, its just showing what the atmosphere is going to look like on this desert continent.

[King of Nowhere]

Its not a sun on the left, its just showing what the atmosphere is going to look like on this desert continent.

I suppose it could be true; it would also work, because considering the latrest strips it should be morning, and the sun is on the opposite side of the western continent, therefore east, where it is supposed to be.
On the other hand, the light effect on the western continent really looks like a sunset, especially because it is very regular, and it easily confuses...

[Andore Mordre]

I figured it was just to show they're heading to a desert soon, but who knows? In the Raymond E. Feist books, he writes the Midkemia world with three moons.

[Bibliomancer]

It looks like heat haze with a liberal pinch of dust mixed in to me, and drawing it with anything but circles would have looked chaotic and messy. This way it appears professional, even if it seems too regular.

[Flickerdart]

Guys, it can't possibly be a sunrise. It's over the Western Continent. It's a sunset. And the other thing is the moon.

[Bibliomancer]

Guys, it can't possibly be a sunrise. It's over the Western Continent. It's a sunset. And the other thing is the moon.

If it's a sunset, why is the sky still blue? It's fairly clear that the thing on the right is the sun and the weak orange light around the Western continent is...something else. Maybe heat-haze.

[Moriarty]

the western continent is yellow/orange, it's just the color theme over there.

it sounds kinda strange, but in oots world there are places with their own color themes

[Zanaril]

The geography is genre savvy. :smallsigh:

[Cleverdan22]

the western continent is yellow/orange, it's just the color theme over there.

it sounds kinda strange, but in oots world there are places with their own color themes

Exactly. Just look at the sky in the Redmountain Hills.

[Berserk Monk]

A wizard did it.

[Fawkes]

Guys, it can't possibly be a sunrise. It's over the Western Continent. It's a sunset. And the other thing is the moon.

You're assuming the OotS world has the same orbit as Earth, which isn't necessarily true.

[Berserk Monk]

There's also the reason the giant made the western sky so orange is for dramatic effect, in which case, a bard did it.

[mikeejimbo]

You're assuming the OotS world has the same orbit as Earth, which isn't necessarily true.

Or that they defined West and East backwards to how we did. I mean, I know we've seen maps with the West on the right and the East on the left, but they could be holding those upside down.

[Kim]

I'll vote for desert haze. The object on the right can't be a moon if the sun is just under the horizon -- if it were, the moon would be in a crescent phase instead of the full one shown.

[Watcher]

Yeah.

A bit off topic (not to hijack)
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) means Vaarsuvius lives in the Western Continent, right?

[Thant]

And what about polar caps? If the world within the Snarl is experiencing peak of an ice age or something similar, glaciers could expand almost as far as equator (or the equivalent) as shown on the pic. It's a possibility.

[Jackson]

Guys, it can't possibly be a sunrise. It's over the Western Continent. It's a sunset. And the other thing is the moon.
There is literally no reason to think that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west on this world. There's every reason, narratively, to believe that it's a sunrise. Not least of which being that it occurs after night.

Given what everything but the Western Continent looks like, it seems to be morning. The Western Continent has a haze over it, but as almost everybody's said at this point, this seems to be a generic, deserty haze. It doesn't make sense, realistically, but, again, there's no reason it should.

And yeah, everything seems to indicate that V is from the Western Continent.

[Aris Katsaris]

There is literally no reason to think that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west on this world.

East is by definition the direction of the planet's rotation, or alternatively (and identically for planets with a single sun) "the direction along a line of latitude towards the sunrise".

So, no, the Sun *must* rise in the general direction of the East, if the reason for the sunrise is the same reason with Earth (i.e. planetary rotation).

Ofcourse we can redefine the meaning of every word so that "west" means "east" and "north" means "west" and "south" means "north", but at that point we're no longer speaking English.

[Sanguine]

East is by definition the direction of the planet's rotation, or alternatively (and identically for planets with a single planet) "the direction along a line of latitude towards the sunrise".

So, no, the Sun *must* rise in the general direction of the East, if the reason for the sunrise is the same reason with Earth (i.e. planetary rotation).

Ofcourse we can redefine the meaning of every word so that "west" means "east" and "north" means "west" and "south" means "north", but at that point we're no longer speaking English.

But this is a fantasy world and it was never stated it rotates in the same direction as ours. As a rule of thumb never assume any thing in a fantasy setting.

[Aris Katsaris]

But this is a fantasy world and it was never stated it rotates in the same direction as ours. As a rule of thumb never assume any thing in a fantasy setting.

You don't get it. "East" is the direction it rotates toward, by the definition of the word "East".

Once again: The word "east" means nothing more and nothing less than "the direction the planet rotates towards".

[KillianHawkeye]

You don't get it. "East" is the direction it rotates toward, by the definition of the word "East".

Once again: The word "east" means nothing more and nothing less than "the direction the planet rotates towards".

I don't know where you get your definitions....


east
–noun
1. a cardinal point of the compass, 90° to the right of north. Abbreviation: E
2. the direction in which this point lies.
3. (usually initial capital letter) a quarter or territory situated in this direction.
4. the East, a. the parts of Asia collectively lying east of Europe and including Asia Minor, Syria, Arabia, India, China, etc.; the Orient.
b. the Far East.
c. (formerly) the Soviet Union and its allies.
d. the part of the U.S. east of the Mississippi River.
e. the part of the U.S. east of the Allegheny Mountains.
f. New England.
g. Ancient and Medieval History. the Eastern Roman Empire.


–adjective
5. directed or proceeding toward the east.
6. coming from the east: an east wind.
7. lying toward or situated in the east: the east side.
8. Ecclesiastical. being at the end of the church where the high altar is: an east window.

–adverb
9. to, toward, or in the east: an island located east of Sumatra; He went east.

I did also find

east
n.
1.Abbr. E
a.The cardinal point on the mariner's compass 90° clockwise from due north and directly opposite west.
b.The direction of the earth's axial rotation.
c.The eastern part of the earth, especially eastern Asia.
d.The eastern part of a region or country.
e.The region of the United States east of the Allegheny Mountains and north of the Mason-Dixon Line.
f.The former Communist bloc of countries in Asia and especially in Eastern Europe.
2.An area or region lying in the east.

Note that it says "direction of the earth's axial rotation." Also note that the OOTS world is NOT the Earth.

Be aware that many words in the english language have more than one definition. Also, be aware of what the definitions of those words actually are. :smallwink:

[Aris Katsaris]

Fine, feel free to define "east", as "the part east of the Mississippi River."

In which case the OOTSverse doesn't have any east at all, unless it also has a Mississippi river. Which it possibly has - Durkon has mentioned it after all.

And even so, since "east" is defined circullary by usage of the word "east", we still have no knowledge of what it means.

I'm too old to debate this stupid crap. If you want to redefine the word "east", feel free. Define it as "that region of the world with polar bears" for all I care.

[Timberboar]

I'm too old to debate this stupid crap. If you want to redefine the word "east", feel free.

Wait, HE'S the one redefining it? You're the one who wasn't able to produce any documentation to back up your point, bucko.

Condescension is the refuge of a lazy mind. Prove your point, sir, or concede his! :smalltongue:

Edit: Oh, and on topic?

The thing in the right part of the panel looks like the moon to me. See also http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html for reference.

The sun is generally a more harsh yellow. The pale yellow seems to be reserved for moonlight.

[Dalenthas]

Well, North and South are pretty arbitrary, except they have to be on the poles, and East and West are defined by North according to the dictionary, so...
I agree with Aris. There's no reason to assume the sun rises in the west, other than to screw with readers. If the planet rotated the other way, you could just define what we call "south" as north and rotate all the other directions 180 degrees, keeping the sun rising in the East...

[Aris Katsaris]

Wait, HE'S the one redefining it?

Yes. Or to be more precisely, he's trying to UNdefine it by a multiplicity of irrelevant definitions.


You're the one who wasn't able to produce any documentation to back up your point, bucko.

And you've given me motivation to bother to do so, in what way?


Prove your point, sir, or concede his!

No. I'm not obliged to do either. I can't be bothered to "prove" why the "New England" definition of "east" isn't relevant -- I can't be bothered to even find out you would consider sufficient proof.


The thing in the right part of the panel looks like the moon to me. See also http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html for reference.

You've not produced documentation that the thing in #230 is the moon. It's possible that in the OOTSverse the moon is brighter than the sun, and the thing in #230 is the sun.

[Haarkla]

You don't get it. "East" is the direction it rotates toward, by the definition of the word "East".

Once again: The word "east" means nothing more and nothing less than "the direction the planet rotates towards".
You are correct Aris. On all planets East is the direction in which the planet rotates. Indeed this is how we decide which direction is east.

[Elfich]

That's no moon. It's a space station.

[Roupe]

. On all planets East is the direction in which the planet rotates
If this statatement is considered absolute then

The second "rock" from the sun called Venus isnt a planet, since it rotates differently?

or

The Planet Venus East is in another direction than that of planet Earths East?

[kpenguin]

The Planet Venus East is in another direction than that of planet Earths East?

This.

Venus's East is different from Earth's East

[Mystic Muse]

Fine, feel free to define "east", as "the part east of the Mississippi River."

In which case the OOTSverse doesn't have any east at all, unless it also has a Mississippi river. Which it possibly has - Durkon has mentioned it after all.

And even so, since "east" is defined circullary by usage of the word "east", we still have no knowledge of what it means.

I'm too old to debate this stupid crap. If you want to redefine the word "east", feel free. Define it as "that region of the world with polar bears" for all I care.

it's a fantasy comic with wizards, dragons, hydras and gods who screw with the OOTSverse for fun. repeat after me."the rules of reality do not apply here."

if I wanted to I could run a campaign where the world never went into night. it just stayed sunny all day and it would work because in fantasy the rules of physics don't apply if the creator of the world doesn't want them to.

[Nimrod's Son]

Venus's East is different from Earth's East
Do you have a source for this? Everything I can find on the matter describes Venus' rotation as "from east to west", which would indicate that all planets are ascribed the same compass points, but Venus rotates in the opposite direction to the others.

[SeventhCircle]

What materials, in specific, have you found that describe Venus rotating "east to west"? I find it hard to believe that anyone would use that word choice, with the exception of science fiction writers who, being writers of fiction, are not really reliable sources for such information.

[archon_huskie]

Check any elementary physical science textbook used outside of Kansas. Venus is the only planet that rotates in a different direction. Well except for Uranus who's axis is on its side.

[Roupe]

Well since the premise is that "all planets East is the direction in which the planet rotates"

Then describing Venus' rotation as "from east to west" would be false, when using planet Venus compass points.

People could argue that the compass points are set to that of one of the celestial bodies (for example the Sun or planet Earth) when comparing different celestial bodies.

--


Venus rotates retrograde (east to west) compared with Earth's prograde (west to east) rotation. Seen from Venus, the Sun would rise in the west and set in the east.

source Nasa
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Venus&Display=OverviewLong

[David Argall]

Guys, it can't possibly be a sunrise. It's over the Western Continent. It's a sunset. And the other thing is the moon.

This assumes what is not clear. We do not know the time or day or the part of the Western Continent pictured. The ship could be East, West, North, or South of the continent, or any point in between, and while we can rule out night time, there are still several alternatives.
It seems most likely we are approaching desert and a windstorm, but don't put much money on that.

[Aris Katsaris]

if I wanted to I could run a campaign where the world never went into night. it just stayed sunny all day and it would work because in fantasy the rules of physics don't apply if the creator of the world doesn't want them to.

Yes -- but we're discussing language, not the rules of reality. An immobile non-rotating world, would by definition not have any poles (whether Northern or Southern), and might use some other directional system.

For example in Discworld, which is located on the back of a giant turtle, the directions are "Rimwards", "Hubwards", "Turnwise" and "Widdershins".

But when you use the word "east", you are hinting to some aspects of your world -- like a rotation or a sunrise.


What materials, in specific, have you found that describe Venus rotating "east to west"? I find it hard to believe that anyone would use that word choice, with the exception of science fiction writers who, being writers of fiction, are not really reliable sources for such information.

It isn't completely illogical -- when you have already defined one rotational direction using the Earth's rotation as a point of reference, you can apply it to other planets in the same solar system -- so you can say that Venus rotates east to west to indicate that it rotates in a different rotational direction than Earth does.

Likewise you can define e.g. Galactic North, Galactic East, etc, by using the galaxy's rotation.

But you can't do that with the Oots planet, because it's not in the same universe (let alone solar system) with Earth.

[hamishspence]

Venus is defined as "upside down"- pics in astronomy books list it with an axial tilt of 178 degrees.

This solves the "reversed direction of rotation" problem.

[BatRobin]

That's no moon. It's a space station.

+1 inturnetz

[KillianHawkeye]

Fine, feel free to define "east", as "the part east of the Mississippi River."

In which case the OOTSverse doesn't have any east at all, unless it also has a Mississippi river. Which it possibly has - Durkon has mentioned it after all.

And even so, since "east" is defined circullary by usage of the word "east", we still have no knowledge of what it means.

I'm too old to debate this stupid crap. If you want to redefine the word "east", feel free. Define it as "that region of the world with polar bears" for all I care.

Try reading the #1 definition, pal.


east
–noun
1. a cardinal point of the compass, 90° to the right of north. Abbreviation: E


Anyway, my main point was to refute this statement you made:

East is by definition the direction of the planet's rotation, or alternatively (and identically for planets with a single sun) "the direction along a line of latitude towards the sunrise".

So, no, the Sun *must* rise in the general direction of the East, if the reason for the sunrise is the same reason with Earth (i.e. planetary rotation).

by showing that there are, in fact, other definitions of the word "east".

It is my own personal fault that I can't stand it when someone makes such an absolute declaration as you made. I live by the motto that "there are no absolutes", as everything is relative to something. Sorry for the dictionary slam, but you just hit one of my pet peeves is all. I didn't mean to upset you.

Personally, I have never identified any meaningful relationship between the word "east" and the direction that the sun rises or the earth rotates. I always viewed it as being coincidental, not that one defines the other. Of course, I'm not an astronomer, but I seriously have never, ever heard that they were related in any way.

[Jackson]

Well, I missed out on a lot of fun that I apparently started, didn't I?

Given that NASA describes Venus's rotation as 'east to west' and there's a perfectly reasonable definition of 'east' that has it defined by its relation to 'north,' which is defined by the location of the poles, I don't think you have much of a case in saying that the one and true definition of 'east' is 'where the sun rises.' I'm not saying that that's a less reasonable definition, just that it's not the one most prominently in usage, even by official sources.

Now, looking at the etymology, it does seem that east derived from 'where the sun rises,' but words aren't bound by their etymology. Still, I can see why, given that, you're so insistent. But I seriously doubt you'd want to use all English words based on how they developed rather than based on their place in current usage, so let's try not to get too fixated.

All that said, if OotS took place on Venus, then my claim (which may be too strong a word) would still stand; all that it takes for it to stand in the actual comic is for OotS-world to have a retrograde axis. Since that's not theoretically impossible, can we please talk about something else now? Like how the circular cloud over the Western Continent does not necessarily imply a second sun?

[Jamin]

But this is a fantasy world and it was never stated it rotates in the same direction as ours. As a rule of thumb never assume any thing in a fantasy setting.

I disagree unless the narrative says something like the earth moves backwards you should assume that it moves normally

[Black Cat Godess]

That's most certainly desert haze and not a sunrise OR a sunset. I suppose it's always possible that the OotS world is similar to Tattoine in that respect, but it just seems like a silly thing to bring up now.

Also, the sun is actually white in color, not yellow, Timberboar. It appears red/orange and sunrise and sunset due to the large amount of atmospheric scattering and at noon, if you could look at it, would indeed look white. Most people say the sun is yellow due to the intervening times when, again, due to atmospheric scattering, the sun looks a bit yellow.

Also, for a fun and useless fact, technically the North pole of the earth is the South pole, since it attracts the North pole of a magnet. ^^ Aren't naming conventions fun?