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View Full Version : (d20/3.5) What's the lowest AC possible?



Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 08:40 AM
How low can you go?

Base
10
Colossal
-8
1 Dexterity
-5
Armor of Arrow Attraction*
+11 (melee) -15 (ranged)
Bracers of Defenselessness
-5
Raging
-2
Frenzy
-4
Charging
-2
Shock Trooper > Heedless Charge
-20 (up to max BAB)
Failed vs Disturbing Visage > Unnerve
-2
Sickened**
-2
Prone**
-4 (+4 Ranged)
Vulnerable Flaw**
-1
Aggressive Trait**
-1
Blind**
-2
Stunned**
-2

Total
-50 Melee (+11 if wearing armor of arrow attraction)
-61 Ranged (+ 4 if Prone)

I think it's still possible to miss that...
Surely AC can go even lower?

*Milskidasith pointed out that the armor of arrow attraction is still +3 full plate for melee AC. Ouch!
**Credit for Prone, Stunned and Sickened goes to Zarakstan (and AstralFire for pointing out that I was wrong about Prone not applying), Vulnerable to Emong, and Aggressive to Milskidasith (who also pointed out that I was wrong about Blindness).

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:44 AM
Prone -4 against melee +4 against ranged
Sickened Doesn't sickened give you a penalty . . .

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 08:47 AM
Can't charge while prone so AC would actually increase considerably. Good call on sickened though, that's another -2.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-09, 08:48 AM
Technically AC would be higher if Dexterity were 0, afflicted with Blindness, or under the effect of Otto’s Irresistible Dance.

DEX 0 lets people CdG you. That's equal to AC You Hit.

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 08:48 AM
You could charge, then fall prone as a free action, mebbe?

SinsI
2009-08-09, 08:49 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

Emong
2009-08-09, 08:50 AM
The Vulnerable flaw gets you a -1 to AC.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 08:50 AM
How would AC increase if afflicted with blindness?

Also, the Agressive trait is -1 to AC for +2 to initiative.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:50 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

Why not . . . :smallconfused:

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 08:51 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

Hey! What do you think this is? THAC0?!

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:52 AM
Doesn't being distracted by a swarm lower your AC or am I now stretching things . . . :smallredface:

kamikasei
2009-08-09, 08:52 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

You can have a penalty on your attack that reduces it below zero - why couldn't you have AC to match?

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:54 AM
You could charge, then fall prone as a free action, mebbe?

Maybe charge across grease get to the dude and fall?

Flickerdart
2009-08-09, 08:55 AM
Vulnerable is a Flaw, not a Trait.

Someone should do a lowest attack modifier thread. That would be harder to do.

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-09, 08:57 AM
Robilar's Gambit gives a -4 I believe.

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 09:03 AM
Thanks, I guess I did write the wrong thing up there.

Well, that's true, I suppose, it would be harder to find all the stacking penalties to attack as there are tons more of them.


Robilar's Gambit gives a -4 I believe.

It's written as an attack bonus for anyone trying to hit you. :smalleek:

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 09:05 AM
Any reason why dropping to prone after the charge wouldn't work for your melee AC?

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 09:06 AM
No being distracted doesn't help :smallannoyed: . . .

Kobold-Bard
2009-08-09, 09:07 AM
It's written as an attack bonus for anyone trying to hit you. :smalleek:

Picky picky :smalltongue:

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 09:08 AM
I'm still wondering why blindness would increase your AC; you are specifically denied your dexterity bonus to AC, but you still get your dex penalty applied, and a -4 to AC.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 09:09 AM
Dex penalty always applies even while flat-footed . . .

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 09:09 AM
Any reason why dropping to prone after the charge wouldn't work for your melee AC?

I had to put on my thinking cap and ponder it. I think you're right, it would stack as long as it happened in the same round as the charge but after the attack. Which also means that reducing Dexterity to 0 at the same time (perhaps to knock prone) would also lower AC by another point, assuming that it didn't end Rage and Frenzy.


I'm still wondering why blindness would increase your AC; you are specifically denied your dexterity bonus to AC, but you still get your dex penalty applied, and a -4 to AC.

I was thinking that it would prevent charging but, as above, with the right timing it wouldn't matter.

Zeta Kai
2009-08-09, 09:14 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

Do you have anything other than your gut to back that assertion up? I see no evidence to claim that AC cannot be negative. The only stats that I'm quite sure cannot go negative are ability scores.

Oh, & Blindness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#blinded) has a -2 to AC, & only removes a Dexterity bonus (if any). You still wouldn't lose a Dexterity penalty, so it still would go lower because you were blind.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-09, 09:18 AM
Shock Trooper: charge for your BAB as penalty to AC.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 09:20 AM
Shock Trooper: charge for your BAB as penalty to AC.

He said that sorry :smallfrown:

Stunned another -2

Flickerdart
2009-08-09, 09:21 AM
Shock Trooper: charge for your BAB as penalty to AC.
That's already up there.

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 09:21 AM
Shock Trooper: charge for your BAB as penalty to AC.

It's up there but I capped it at 20 though, technically, it could go higher via epic attack bonus.

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 09:32 AM
Oh! Remember that you have to add in the +11 to AC for the armor of arrow attraction; it's a +3 full plate against melee.

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 09:33 AM
Oh! Remember that you have to add in the +11 to AC for the armor of arrow attraction; it's a +3 full plate against melee.

Ouch! Good point!

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 09:34 AM
Then I wouldn't use the full-plate . . . Melee AC's more important . . .

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 09:37 AM
Also, you might want to get a -2 cursed sword and enchant it with the defending property; you can transfer it's to hit "bonus" to your AC. Maybe. I'm not sure if that would work.

Killer Angel
2009-08-09, 10:22 AM
Ray of exaustion (or another effect that makes you exausted), adds another -6 penalty to dex


[I think it's still possible to miss that...


Sadly, a 1 on an attack roll, it's always a miss...

Kaihaku
2009-08-09, 10:24 AM
Ray of exaustion (or another effect that makes you exausted), adds another -6 penalty to dex

Good thought but can't go lower than 0 DEX. :(


Sadly, a 1 on an attack roll, it's always a miss...

True story.

Killer Angel
2009-08-09, 10:31 AM
Good thought but can't go lower than 0 DEX. :(



Ah, yes...
Staying on spells, I think we can use Slow: it's a -1 penalty to AC.
If slowed, he cannot charge, but if we slow him after the charge...

playswithfire
2009-08-09, 10:42 AM
Robilar's Gambit gives a -4 I believe.

It's written as an attack bonus for anyone trying to hit you. :smalleek:

Karmic Strike (CWar 102), on the other hand, says you take a -4 penalty to your AC; that may have been what he was thinking of; they usually get discussed at the same time.

Androgeus
2009-08-09, 10:42 AM
The Warmace in CW gives -1 to AC

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 10:44 AM
Yes! Nice find and two-weaponing 2 war maces stacks so another -2

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 10:46 AM
But two defending -2 cursed swords gets you -4... >_>

Douglas
2009-08-09, 10:47 AM
Have someone cast Curse of Impending Blades on you for -2 AC.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 10:52 AM
But two defending -2 cursed swords gets you -4... >_>

What about 2 -2 defending war maces O.o

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 10:56 AM
What about 2 -2 defending war maces O.o

The -2 sword is an actual (cursed) item. -2 defending war maces don't exist except as homebrew.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 10:59 AM
But the defending swords are homebrew are they not so what's to stop us from using the war maces :smallconfused:

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:01 AM
But the defending swords are homebrew are they not so what's to stop us from using the war maces :smallconfused:

Defending swords are not homebrew... defending is an actual enchantment you can add to weapons. It's even on the wiki; you could look it up.

EDIT: Though I did just realize you can't enchant the swords with defending because they don't have a +1 to begin with.

Androgeus
2009-08-09, 11:04 AM
EDIT: Though I did just realize you can't enchant the swords with defending because they don't have a +1 to begin with.

+1 -2 defending sword then? :smalltongue:

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:06 AM
So warmaces it is. But I still disagree with you on what is homebrew because you had to add the defending property so you might as well be able to change the weapon . . .

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:07 AM
So warmaces it is. But I still disagree with you on what is homebrew because you had to add the defending property so you might as well be able to change the weapon . . .

It's an enchantment you can add to your weapon by the core rules! That isn't homebrew! Making a weapon have a - modifier, which has no rules for it anywhere, is homebrew! I don't see how you can possibly be arguing this.

ericgrau
2009-08-09, 11:09 AM
Slow gives a -1 untyped penalty to AC.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:10 AM
It's an enchantment you can add to your weapon by the core rules! That isn't homebrew! Making a wewapon have a - modifier, which has no rules for it anywhere, is homebrew! I don't see how you can possibly be arguing this.

But considering -2 weapons already exists what is to say you can't just substitute a new weapon if there were no rules for - weapons I would agree with you but in these circumstances I dont!

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:12 AM
But considering -2 weapons already exists what is to say you can't just substitute a new weapon if there were no rules for - weapons I would agree with you but in these circumstances I dont!

The -2 cursed sword is listed under the "unique cursed weapons" section. You can't just transfer that!

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 11:18 AM
You can take levels of ronin to get banzai charge, which is like shock trooper, but it stacks with shock trooper.

So thats another -20.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:27 AM
The -2 cursed sword is listed under the "unique cursed weapons" section. You can't just transfer that!

Yes you can, it is just a template a weapon change is the most simple change of all defending is more homebrew than the war hammer!

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:29 AM
Yes you can, it is just a template a weapon change is the most simple change of all defending is more homebrew than the war hammer!

How is adding defending to a weapon, something that can be done by core, more homebrew than making a non core weapon -2, which has no rules for it?

Flickerdart
2009-08-09, 11:31 AM
Yes you can, it is just a template a weapon change is the most simple change of all defending is more homebrew than the war hammer!
It's not a template. It's a unique property of a unique item. In a similar vein, proposing a Sword of Opposite Alignment is homebrew, while the Helm of Opposite Alignment is a real unique item. A Dwarf with wings is homebrew, a Raptoran is an actual race that has wings. Just because it exists doesn't mean you can solder it onto another similar thing and call it a day.
Now, if there was a "cursed" weapon property then yes, you could have it that way. But there isn't and you can't.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:36 AM
I see what you are getting at, but no one in their right mind would see that as a change that should be not allowed using only the core rules . . . (and CW obviously)

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:38 AM
I see what you are getting at, but no one in their right mind would see that as a change that should be not allowed using only the core rules . . . (and CW obviously)

Huh? Why would you have to be insane to not see creating a homebrew item for a thought exercise as being a bad way to do a thought exercise?

Here's an idea: Since there is a weapon that gives -1 AC when using it, let's make one that gives -200000000 AC when you wield it and removes your ability to dodge on a natural 1! It's not homebrew, it's just a template change!

/sarcasm.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:44 AM
Huh? Why would you have to be insane to not see creating a homebrew item for a thought exercise as being a bad way to do a thought exercise?

Here's an idea: Since there is a weapon that gives -1 AC when using it, let's make one that gives -200000000 AC when you wield it and removes your ability to dodge on a natural 1! It's not homebrew, it's just a template change!

/sarcasm.

. . . wow . . . do you really mean that . . . ? . . . ?
EDIT: and anyway there is no need to flame me . . .

Skorj
2009-08-09, 12:11 PM
Wait: a Defenselessness, Raging, Frenzied, Charging, Unnerved, Sickened, Prone, Vulnerable, Aggressive, Blind, Stunned opponent? Is this a D&D rules question, or a comment on the Goblins webcomic? :smallbiggrin:

Zeta Kai
2009-08-09, 12:51 PM
We should do a thread asking for what's the lowest BAB possible. That would be a truly interesting challenge (not that this isn't, of course).

AstralFire
2009-08-09, 12:56 PM
We should do a thread asking for what's the lowest BAB possible. That would be a truly interesting challenge (not that this isn't, of course).

I saw that done a few weeks ago. I think there are enough Low/Med BAB classes to do it easy, though.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 12:58 PM
I saw that done a few weeks ago. I think there are enough Low/Med BAB classes to do it easy, though.

Just multiclassing between low BAB classes can get you 0 BAB at level 20.

Volkov
2009-08-09, 09:04 PM
How does a negative AC work? Do the enemies hit themselves?

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 09:05 PM
The same way any other AC works... if the enemies attack is higher than your AC, it hits. In this case, it just happens that anybody but a very ganked character will hit.

Khatoblepas
2009-09-07, 04:35 PM
What about having the targets being Paladins of slaughter?


Debilitating Aura (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of slaughter radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of her to take a -1 penalty to Armor Class. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.

You can fit 8 Paladins in a 3x3 square, leaving one space for the lowest AC guy. I don't quite remember how diagonals affect reach, but you can definitely get another -8 to the guy's AC through this, and you can get an extra -8 within the other 10ft. If you have FLYING Paladins of slaughter, I bet you could get an extra -8 to -12. Likewise earth gliding Earth Elemental Paladins of Slaughter. I do believe they stack, because they're untyped bonuses from different sources. If it doesn't stack... well, that's still another -1 AC.

If Web articles are kosher, you could afflict his cursed armor with a retooled Rust Monster:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a
for another -11 AC.

There's also a Warblade stance that gives -2 AC and +1d6 extra damage.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 04:43 PM
Just give the damn cursed sword Morphing already. >.>

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 05:33 PM
Being a ronin lets you take a penalty up to your BAB to your AC and add it to damage. It stacks with shocktrooper. So thats another -20.

Attacking a target under the effects of greater luminous armor is another -4.

dspeyer
2009-09-07, 07:38 PM
What about having the targets being Paladins of slaughter?
You can fit 8 Paladins in a 3x3 square, leaving one space for the lowest AC guy.

That's for medium-size paladins of slaughter. There are lots of small usually-evil races, and even a few tiny always-evil monsters with high int. Picture a cloud of wyrmling black dragon paladins of slaughter.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-07, 11:01 PM
Since Ronin has been mentioned, let's put him under the effects of a War Chanter's Inspire Recklessness, effectively the same exact ability - that's yet another -20.

Arundel
2009-09-08, 12:37 AM
I saw that done a few weeks ago. I think there are enough Low/Med BAB classes to do it easy, though.

We should flesh out both characters. Then make them fight to the death.


It would be a battle of the shield that can deflect nothing and the spear which must miss. Epically terrible.

daggaz
2009-09-08, 12:46 AM
What about falling asleep in the battle? Juts lie down, curl up, and go to sleep. Its an autohit for the enemy. Pretty sure thats AC -infinity, for one condition.

AslanCross
2009-09-08, 12:54 AM
I'm quite sure AC can't go below zero.

Many objects are listed as having negative AC. The ships in Stormwrack, for one. In Red Hand of Doom, the city wall is assumed to have negative AC (-6) for the purposes of the siege.


How does a negative AC work? Do the enemies hit themselves?

Same thing---if the enemy's attack roll exceeds their AC, it hits. Just that a negative AC makes a lot of allowances for penalties (range increment, etc).

woodenbandman
2009-09-08, 08:28 AM
Ronin's Banzai Charge ability stacks with the Shock Trooper ability Reckless Charge. It specifically only adds +1 damage per point of AC sacrificed. Add in like 3 levels of Ronin and knock your AC down by 20.

EDIT: NINJA

Well, you could always do the Kensai thing. Donate all +17 (after you lose some from Kensai) to a War Chanter, and he then increases your BAB to like 35. That should add a cumulative - 30 penalty on top of everything from your increased banzai charging and increased shock trooping.

Eloel
2009-09-08, 08:38 AM
Just give the damn cursed sword Morphing already. >.>

This won't work. I think there's at least 1 condition in there that requires you to drop your weapons.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-09-08, 08:43 AM
This puts a whole new spin on optimization....

Cyclocone
2009-09-08, 09:03 AM
If the Paladin of Slaughters aura works identically to the core pallys, it's a morale effect, meaning multiple auras won't stack.

If you are going with -2 swords, better make it a Thri-Kreen or an Anthropomorphic Giant Squid.

kjones
2009-09-08, 09:19 AM
Picture the situation here:

The barbarian lumbered across the field, each footprint the size of a Volvo. Long had he quested to arrive at this place, but at long last, the evil wizard that had magically sapped his reflexes and taken his sight was within his grasp. He patted his lucky armor (which for some reason was feathered with broken arrows, quarrels, and ballista bolts) and girded his trusty bracers as he prepared himself for battle.

The wizard in his "sight", he channeled his primal fury into a savage battle frenzy. The wizard was expecting him, however, he and his dastardly wizard friends, and they wasted no time in assaulting him with spell after spell. One conjured forth a cloud of noxious vapors that left the barbarian gasping and retching. One filled his mind with horrific nightmares from which there was no escape. The third... well, the third only waited, which was troubling.

But no matter! Time to CHARGE! The barbarian's primal rage mixed with his natural aggression and vulnerability proved a potent and deadly combination, and he let his anger carry him forward. In his blind fury, however, he failed to notice a banana peel discreetly placed on the ground before him, and he tumbled head over heels to the ground.

The third wizard acted then, summoning forth thunder from the heavens that crashed and boomed around his head, leaving him dazed, shocked, and numb. As he lay there, he wondered how, exactly, his life had come to this.

(If we manage to include 67361235376 evil paladins packed into a single square, so much the better.)

Jeoma
2009-09-08, 10:52 AM
What about having the targets being Paladins of slaughter?



You can fit 8 Paladins in a 3x3 square, leaving one space for the lowest AC guy. I don't quite remember how diagonals affect reach, but you can definitely get another -8 to the guy's AC through this, and you can get an extra -8 within the other 10ft. If you have FLYING Paladins of slaughter, I bet you could get an extra -8 to -12. Likewise earth gliding Earth Elemental Paladins of Slaughter. I do believe they stack, because they're untyped bonuses from different sources.

Why not just let infinite of these paladins start a grapple in a square near the unlucky behemot's destination? Then afterwards, we can have a Paladin Cluster Bomb, dousing the entire country in -1 to AC!

Lamech
2009-09-08, 10:57 AM
Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level
Then use shock trooper. Caster level can go really high. So an arbitrarly large negative number.

Kami2awa
2009-09-09, 01:13 PM
Wait: a Defenselessness, Raging, Frenzied, Charging, Unnerved, Sickened, Prone, Vulnerable, Aggressive, Blind, Stunned opponent? Is this a D&D rules question, or a comment on the Goblins webcomic? :smallbiggrin:

We probably all know someone like this.

Crow
2009-09-09, 01:26 PM
Reckless Offense (SRD), is a feat that will lower your AC by 4 and give you +2 to hit.

woodenbandman
2009-09-09, 02:46 PM
Then use shock trooper. Caster level can go really high. So an arbitrarly large negative number.

Character. Not caster level.

Actually... within infinite levels, your ac becomes equal to -infinity +10. I have an AC of -infinity.

Noble Savant
2009-09-09, 03:40 PM
You can get a minus X to AC, X being the amount of small Paladins of Slaughter with Swarmfighting you can find and put in one square.

FMArthur
2009-09-09, 04:11 PM
So you get a billion fine Paladins of Slaughter to surround your colossal ass... so you "charge" into a trip and lay prone at the feet of your enemy, having taken -60 or so to your AC from the charge alone. You do this because your judgement is kind of impaired by the wide variety of status ailments you are afflicted with and because your evil goddamn swords hate you and you are determined to use them for your cause...