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Eldariel
2009-08-09, 10:44 AM
Mundane Badass


Inspiration
In the Hulk-thread, I realized that the suggested shell is actually quite a capable character without using any magic items or spells; indeed, he loses nothing by being in an AMF. This reminded me of an old Gleemax-thread of optimizing a party for a normal campaign with a twist: The party did not have any magic whatsoever.

Drinking away my hangover today gave me a lot of time to think about trivialities and I figured it might be interesting to see what people would come up with around here in a similar challenge. I personally found this fascinating the first time around and hope people have a similar intrigue.


Parameters
1. The idea is to generate a party of 4 characters that's viable from level 1 to level 20.
The challenge is building a bunch of viable characters from 1-20 who lose nothing by being under Anti-Magic Field. Submitting single characters and trying to compose workable teams of them and other submissions later is a fair game and probably the best way to go about it as making 4 20-level builds is a pain.

"Viable" is defined as follows: Capable of defeating 4 level appropriate encounters or 1 level+4 encounter with their daily abilities throughout the levels (from 1 to 20). Note that these encounters are allowed their full set of abilities; they aren't constrained by the same no-magic limitations the party is. I'm assuming ones straight from Monster Manual here though. Preferably no Evil alignments. For single characters, the test is basically being able to give a fight to a single CR-equivalent adversary, preferably coming out on top.

2. The party is treated as if in anti-magic field/dead magic zone constantly.
The party is effectively assumed to have only mundane equipment and only mundane abilities. This means two things:
- Supernatural abilities are not allowed in the challenge, though classes with supernatural abilities are a fair game. The abilities are simply assumed not to exist (I'm e.g. allowing Eternal Blade-class from Tome of Battle since Eternal Blade's abilities are all Ex; only the Blade Guide itself is Su and it's more of a class-derived companion like AC).
- Classes with spellcasting are a fair game but the spellcasting is ignored. Psionics is considered equivalent to spellcasting here. No Initiates of Mystra, please.
- Though the abilities work even without magic, inherent bonuses (those from the Tomes/Manuals) break the spirit of the challenge and hence get axe.

3. Characters should strive to represent mundane heroes.
Your usual D&D character is a "hero" in the sense that he can accomplish superhuman feats, but usually his "heroism" comes from either using magic, his uncanny bloodline or his magical equipment rather than from his own combat prowess and his own wits.

The purpose here is to subvert that; heroes who get by with nothing but what they have right here. The kind of underdog stories are written of; a man who slays Dragons and ravages the Hells with nothing but himself and his cold steel.

Sources are limited to official WoTC published D&D 3.5 material sans Dragon Magazine, with a list of allowed 3.0 books.

Note that the official WoTC Settings-books are not barred. The 3.0 books that are a fair game:
Manual of the Planes, Song and Silence, Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, Defenders of the Faith, Savage Species, Arms and Equipment Guide, Monster Manual II, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Races of Faerun, Unapproachable East, Silver Marches & Oriental Adventures

And yes, the Unarmed Swordsage-variant is ok; it gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat on level 1 along with Monk UA damage and speed progressions.

4. Everything regarding judging, if there is going to be such a thing, is completely unclear yet.
I'm more interested in seeing if a workable party can be made than by who is the sexiest right now. We'll see about judging later if someone actually cares enough to post something here.

5. Leadership and derivatives (Dragon Cohort, Undead Leadership, etc.) are banned.
Companions and such are a fair game, but generating your own army is just dumb. Besides, if allowed it's bloody obvious that every character needs one or falls into mediocrity. So yeah, none of this nonsense plzkthx.

The idea is that the character himself is the hero; he's the champion who does what he does, defying all logic and defeating creatures that should not be defeated by mere mortals.


Character Creation
1. House Rules
- Fractional Base Attack Bonus & Saves. Let's not do anything dumb here. The +2 for getting good progression in save is also only applied once per save, so multiclassing isn't a "get out of saves for free"-card.
- Character flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) and character traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) are a fair game.
- Two-Weapon Fighting-tree is combined into one feat. Two-Weapon Defense likewise if someone gives a damn. TWF Ranger gets Two-Weapon Defense on 6 and Two-Weapon Rend on 11 instead of the normal feats.
- Ranger's Animal Companion has progression equal to Druid's Animal Companion - 3 instead of the printed version.
- Unarmed Swordsage variant is alright. It gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat at first level, and has Monk's speed and unarmed progression.
- Characters get half their character level as a Dodge-bonus to AC. Without this, even AC-focused builds have trouble getting past the point where the enemies hit you on 1.
- Consider Mw. Weapons as penetrating DR/Magic. Penetrating it otherwise is too much work and it's not the point here. Other types of DRs work normally (though bonus points to characters not in need of this rule).
- Paladin's Mount is considered an Ex ability like Animal Companion for this challenge.
- Feats are gained Level 1, Level 2, Level 4, and every 2 levels thereafter (6, 8, 10, 12, etc.). This is because now everything needs to be done with feats.
- Every class gets 4 extra skill points each level (this is multiplied on level 1). This is simply because the usual skillpoint allocation is woefully insufficient for games actually using the skill system.
- Jotunbrud [PGtF] counts as Powerful Build for prerequisites where appropriate. However, Powerful Build does not count as Large for prerequisites so things that do not state Powerful Build qualifies you for are not available through it.

2. Guidelines
- Only LA +0 Races. Special ban to anything that flies (Raptoran) and the Anthropomorphic Animals. Too big advantages, and too far off the challenge's point.
- No Templates of any kind. This again is about the hero himself, not his lineage or such. We're looking for Odysseus, not Hercules here (that is, the character's power, not his bloodline - nothing wrong with Enormous Strength Barbarian).
- Preferably not relevantly hindered by being a Human, racial prerequisites and substitution levels not withstanding.
- 42 Point Buy. We're talking about great heroes here.
- The characters should be viable from level 1 to level 20.
- Underwater capabilities and level 20 movement options are not expected as they do not exist in this non-magical world; "viable" does not constitute "as good as a fully magick'd up level 20 character" since that's obviously impossible. "Viable" means "able to hold their own against CR appropriate encounters from the MM1".
- Leadership and variants are banned. It's about the hero, not the king and his army.
- Preferably no evil alignments. Again, great heroes, not great villains.
- Non-magical versions of magical gear is available (for example, Celestial Armor) as long as their non-magical characteristics are easy enough to derive/relatively obvious.
- No Grafts or Inherent bonuses. While they're non-magical, they are very much against the spirit of this thing.
- Any class is a fair game, but any supernatural abilities, spellcasting abilities and such simply don't exist. If the class is like Eternal Blade though, since Blade Guide is more of a companion than a class feature, you're still allowed to use its class features in spite of it.

Sources are limited to official WoTC published D&D 3.5 material sans Dragon Magazine, with a list of allowed 3.0 books.

Note that the official WoTC Settings-books are not barred. The 3.0 books that are a fair game:
Manual of the Planes, Song and Silence, Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, Defenders of the Faith, Savage Species, Arms and Equipment Guide, Monster Manual II, Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Races of Faerun, Unapproachable East, Silver Marches & Oriental Adventures


Things to Tackle
This is a list of problems lacking magic generates that normally aren't present in D&D 3.5, and thus the points you should focus on when making these characters:
- No flight/teleportation/whatever readily available. This means that every character needs decent ranged capabilities simply because otherwise they get eaten by that Dragon strafe-breathing them from level 3 (unless they have flying mounts or something, but even then, beware the splash damage).
- No Str-boosters/+X Weapons/Other types of numeric buffs. This means that standard builds might have serious issue actually hitting. A Barbarian with Mw. weapon, Str 18 and all level-ups there + Mighty Rage has Str 31, making for +31 attacks, far cry from reliably hitting AC 40 Pit Fiend or AC 46 (Mage Armor) Great Wyrm Black (CR 22). This also places premium on buffing your saves as magic to negate the need for them and to numerically buff them just isn't there.
- No AC boosters. This means that standard character AC is capped at ~25, which is what you get with Mithril Full-Plate, Mithril Tower Shield & 16 Dex. Non-magical Celestial Armor (+5 armor, +8 Dex) is ok, totalling at 23, but is only useful to Dex-focused characters as 26 Dex is very hard to reach otherwise. Even 16 Dex is quite the investment also given that Dex-boosters aren't available. This means there's a premium for alternative means of protection against attacks (such as HP, ways to deflect blows, remain undetected and so on).
- Difficulty of detecting invisible adversaries. This means you should plan for enemies you cannot detect the oldfashioned way (though high enough Spot-check does just that). There is a plenthora of ways of dealing with such enemies, of course, but that doesn't help you if you didn't pick any of them.
- Difficulty of movement. Sometimes you might need to scale a cliff, sometimes you might need to walk over a narrow bridge, etc. Without magic, skills play a much larger role in this so physicals may be worth investing in.


Afterwords
There, I think that's everything. If anything is unclear or missing, bring it up and I'll see to fixing it. Other than that, if someone feels this could be amusing, let's see some mundane badasses!

The Gleemax Thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-908126.html) I mentioned contains some decent material (though the builds there are of course inapplicable since they're mostly flying characters).


Submissions
Single Characters
Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6685382&postcount=22): Dual Whip Daggerer (illegal as of now)
Keld Denar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6685434&postcount=23): Bear of Doom (illegal as of now)
Indon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6687101&postcount=44): Lane the Marshal
Telonius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6691458&postcount=67): Pirate (not updated to rules)
playswithfire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6702113&postcount=90): Shiba Protector (incomplete)


Parties of 4
Fax Celestis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6684383&postcount=12): Kjeldoran Skyknights (only has general outlines)
Charlie Kemek (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6686039&postcount=31): The Riders (only has general outlines)
The Gilded Duke (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6688478&postcount=51): The Irregulars (incomplete)
Biffoniacus Furiou (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6689387&postcount=52): Team Hunter (only has general outlines, Soulbow illegal)

HamHam
2009-08-09, 10:52 AM
So basically every build is ToB-based.

Indon
2009-08-09, 10:59 AM
So basically every build is ToB-based.

Ah, spellcasting. Overpowered even when it's not technically magical.

But seriously, the group would need a skill-user like a rogue, and a ranged combatant (like a ranger or archer fighter). I guess theoretically a Rogue/Ranger could cover both to some extent...

Also, Crusaders still aren't exactly stellar healers. The question, of course, is if there's anything better out there.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-08-09, 11:03 AM
So basically every build is ToB-based.

And uber-charger and uber-hurler and the monk...

...no wait the monk is still screwed...

Flickerdart
2009-08-09, 11:17 AM
Favored Soul gets wings at 17th, I think, so it's not impossible to fly without magic. Their casting isn't that great anyways, but I forget what else they get. Good saves, Weapon Spec. with their deity's favored weapon...

Milskidasith
2009-08-09, 11:19 AM
Everybody is a druid. That's all. Even without casting, wildshape + animal companion give them the mobility they need while still being able to hit harder than all (core) classes that are nonmagical.

Adumbration
2009-08-09, 11:21 AM
Everybody is a druid. That's all. Even without casting, wildshape + animal companion give them the mobility they need while still being able to hit harder than all (core) classes that are nonmagical.

Wildshape is a supernatural ability.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 11:21 AM
So basically every build is ToB-based.

*shrug* You have ~15 non-ToB base classes and ~100 non-ToB prestige classes available. Considering the goal is to make the character viable, you don't need to use ToB and indeed, there are notable problems with ToB. The biggest impact for the lack of magic:

-No flight/teleportation/whatever available. This means that every character needs decent ranged capabilities simply because otherwise they get eaten by that Dragon strafe-breathing them from level 3.

-No Str-boosters/+X Weapons/Other types of numeric buffs. This means that standard builds might have serious issue actually hitting. A Barbarian with Mw. weapon, Str 18 and all level-ups there + Mighty Rage has Str 31, making for +31 attacks, far cry from reliably hitting AC 40 Pit Fiend or AC 46 (Mage Armor) Great Wyrm Black (CR 22). This also places premium on buffing your saves as magic to negate the need for them and to numerically buff them just isn't there.

-No AC boosters. This means that standard character AC is capped at ~25, which is what you get with Mithril Full-Plate, Mithril Tower Shield & 16 Dex. Non-magical Celestial Armor (+5 armor, +8 Dex) is ok, totalling at 23, but is only useful to Dex-focused characters as 26 Dex is very hard to reach otherwise. Even 16 Dex is quite the investment also given that Dex-boosters aren't available. This means there's a premium for alternative means of protection against attacks (such as HP, ways to deflect blows, remain undetected and so on).


All these are factors which revalue a lot of things in the game; anything that gives you a bonus to hit becomes much better (Melee Weapon Mastery may even be worth spending the feats on!) and focused melee characters are relatively useless as they simply cannot reach a large portion of what you may face. ToB doesn't boost these points that much, indeed possibly making another type of a class more desirable.

This also makes Chargers less relevant. Hurlers aren't much an issue given that there is no Large race available (it was a consideration in making the limitations).


The whole reason it appeals to me is that it's so different; all values get thrown upside down when magic buffs aren't available. Oh, and Tarrasque is actually a problem with these limitations! It'd be interesting to see if we reach a point where the party can efficiently destroy it without an overwhelming terrain advantage.

Adumbration
2009-08-09, 11:27 AM
Knight or a Fighter with the Cavalier or Halfling Outrider prestige class - in other words, a mounted fighter - could take care of the melee side quite well. Add a second melee-er, maybe one of the mentioned ToB classes or a frenzied barbarian and 2 ranged combatants.

By the way, do the limitations on magic also touch the opponents? A pit fiend or a solar is somewhat less formidable opponent without their casting or sword.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 11:29 AM
By the way, do the limitations on magic also touch the opponents? A pit fiend or a solar is somewhat less formidable opponent without their casting or sword.

No, they are not limited. That's the whole point. Though assume the monsters pretty straight from MM; I'm not going to optimize them or play up their Int beyond the obvious (so the Solar uses that Magic Vestment he's got prepared along with any other all-day spells on his list, and the Dragon casts his Mage Armor), because otherwise this would obviously be impossible, even going to the TO side of things without all the limitations. And I'm not considering NPC casters here, just MM1 monsters.

And yeah, I'd definitely make sure every character that is not a level 17 Favored Soul has a decent ranged capability, because fights where only one character in the party can contribute tends to be rather difficult to win.

HamHam
2009-08-09, 11:41 AM
-No flight/teleportation/whatever available. This means that every character needs decent ranged capabilities simply because otherwise they get eaten by that Dragon strafe-breathing them from level 3.

Except that most ranged attacks are made utterly meaningless by DR.

And since all the flying races are banned apparently, that means charging builds are pointless.

So basically Dragons auto-win against any build.

And against things that are not Dragons, if you don't have Hearing the Air you suck, you need the Diamond Mind save maneuvers to actually be able to make saves, and Bloodstorm Blade is the only way to really make effective ranged attacks.

I stand by my initial statement that any build is going to make heavy use of Tome of Battle.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-09, 11:44 AM
Party: Kjeldoran Skyknights
Character 1: Raptoran Knight (1-20) acts as tank and aggro control. In levels 1-5, he rides a horse; after that point, he flies on his own accord. In both instances, he uses a long bow, a lance, and a long sword.

Character 2: Ranger (Archery) 5/Beast Heart Adept 10/Horizon Walker 5. He provides airlift for the rest of the party by choosing a posse of giant eagles. Uses a long bow and lance, but prefers to hail death onto his enemies. May utilize Plummeting Shot (HoB) for extra doom.

Character 3: Fighter 1/Rogue 19. Handles traps, snipes unprepared targets with another long bow. Occasionally dives with a lance into flanking for a x3 (or x4 if he gets Spirited Charge) plus sneak attack explosion.

Character 4: Fighter 8/Cavalier 10/Fighter 2. Resident redclouder. Takes the mounted combat tree, dives with a lance, uses the zomgwtfhueg multiplier from divecharging with a lance and being a cavalier, plus Power Attack to turn opponents into fine red mist.

Indon
2009-08-09, 11:50 AM
It occurs to me that a Marshal might be quite valuable to this party.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 11:50 AM
Party: Kjeldoran Skyknights
Character 1: Raptoran Knight (1-20)
Raptoran? I thought they were banned . . .

HamHam
2009-08-09, 11:52 AM
Party: Kjeldoran Skyknights
Character 1: Raptoran Knight (1-20) acts as tank and aggro control. In levels 1-5, he rides a horse; after that point, he flies on his own accord. In both instances, he uses a long bow, a lance, and a long sword.

Character 2: Ranger (Archery) 5/Beast Heart Adept 10/Horizon Walker 5. He provides airlift for the rest of the party by choosing a posse of giant eagles. Uses a long bow and lance, but prefers to hail death onto his enemies. May utilize Plummeting Shot (HoB) for extra doom.

Character 3: Fighter 1/Rogue 19. Handles traps, snipes unprepared targets with another long bow. Occasionally dives with a lance into flanking for a x3 (or x4 if he gets Spirited Charge) plus sneak attack explosion.

Character 4: Fighter 8/Cavalier 10/Fighter 2. Resident redclouder. Takes the mounted combat tree, dives with a lance, uses the zomgwtfhueg multiplier from divecharging with a lance and being a cavalier, plus Power Attack to turn opponents into fine red mist.

How do they handle invisible opponents?

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 11:52 AM
Except that most ranged attacks are made utterly meaningless by DR.

And since all the flying races are banned apparently, that means charging builds are pointless.

So basically Dragons auto-win against any build.

Hardly; there are ways to bypass DR without access to magic and there are ways to deal enough damage to pierce through it.

Though ironically, I may be best off removing DR/Magic as DR/Good (at least two materials do it), DR/Material (well, obviously) and DR/Damage Type are all quite bypassable without magic, but DR/Magic while normally trivial, is pretty big an issue here.


And against things that are not Dragons, if you don't have Hearing the Air you suck, you need the Diamond Mind save maneuvers to actually be able to make saves, and Bloodstorm Blade is the only way to really make effective ranged attacks.

I stand by my initial statement that any build is going to make heavy use of Tome of Battle.

Making use of ToB is most probably a v. good idea, but I hardly see all-ToB being the best way to go about it given that extra feats and stat-boosting abilities are much better for tackling many of those issues and ranged attacks.

ToB doesn't really improve your numbers all that much and improving your numbers is basically the thing that sets this apart from any normal optimization scheme. Diamond Mind save maneuvers are a good point, but you can pick them all with one-level Warblade dip, and there are other ways to cover your saves.


Fax: I tossed Raptoran as a race away since it has an unfair-for-this-challenge edge over all the other LA +0 races in flight. That said, I suppose you can get by that with a flying mount.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 12:03 PM
I added the original Gleemax-thread to the OP as a link; there's a lot of more fringe non-magical material listed for fighting among other things incorporeals, DR/Magic types and such so it could be a beneficial resource for those interested.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 12:03 PM
1 bloodstorm blade, 1 regular warblade, 1 crusader, 1 fighter/archer prcs.


Flying enemies are dealt with by the archer and bloodstorm blade. The crusader and warblade, since they lack ranged attacks, will spend their turns using and recovering white raven tactics. Invisible enemies are dealt with by hearing the air stance and/or draconic grafts granting blindsense and/or the tiger claw stance granting scent. DR is oblivated by stone dragon. Regular enemies are dealt with by time stands still. Any single creature is dealt with by stunlocking with white raven hammer. Crowds are dealt with by thicket of blades and the bloodstorm blade.

Indon
2009-08-09, 12:12 PM
Okay, I'm going to make just a Marshal 20, for anyone to use if it fits into their party.

Alternate Universe Elan
Human CG Marshal 20
Stat Priority Cha/Con/Dex/Str/Wis/Int, spends every stat gain on Cha.

AU Elan can activate one of his auras (an Ex ability) as a swift action. They work on all allies within 60 feet. AU Elan may maintain one Minor and one Major aura at any given time, indefinitely.

Takes the following auras:
Minor (Adds Cha bonus to stat): Fort Saves, Ref Saves, Will Saves, Disarm/Trip/Bull Rush/Sunder checks, Dex checks/skills/Initiative, Con checks/skills, Int checks/skills, Str checks/skills.

Major (Adds +1 to stat, +2 @ lv7, +3 lv14, +4lv20): Melee Attack Rolls, Ranged Attack Rolls, AC, Speed (5xbonus), All Saves (does not stack with minor save auras).

AU Elan can also grant a move action to any allies within 30 feet as a standard action 1/day at 4th level and one additional time a day every 4 levels.

Elan maxes Diplomacy and functions as the party face and support for both skills and combat.

If it were a 5-person party he'd be a shoe-in, but with just 4, YMMV.

Rad
2009-08-09, 01:46 PM
How do they handle invisible opponents?

They still need to make Move Silently checks. The Rogue hears them and proceeds with throwing a bag of flour at them.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 01:53 PM
They still need to make Move Silently checks. The Rogue hears them and proceeds with throwing a bag of flour at them.

Invisibility isn't as much a problem as one'd think. The Spot-check is doable unless the Invisible guy is also a master sneak, and the Listen-check is often doable also. Also, only one of the four party members needs to actually locate the opponent; he can communicate that to the rest of the party.

And mundane means such as spreading out marbles or flour or simply throwing rocks and seeing where they hit something solid all serve to help there too. Though one character with Hearing the Air or at least Hunter's Sense (Scent pinpoints within 5' and gives direction 30' away) is probably advicable. That's achievable with a one-two level dip in an adept class though, or two feats.

Sure, it's still a 50% miss chance which sucks, but that's beatable at least.


Really, flight is the #1 problem followed by just plain numbers, which is why I'd heavily lean towards ranged builds with melee capabilities.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-09, 02:18 PM
Ranger 1 / Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 / Ranger 12 / Thug Fighter 2 / Exotic Weapon Master 3

Weapons: 2 Whip daggers, armor spikes.

Feats:
1: Power Attack, EWP: Whip
3: Improved Trip (Totem), Stand Still
4: TWF (Ranger)
5: Endurance
6: Knock Down, Combat Reflexes
8: Improved TWF (Ranger)
9: Steadfast Determination
12: Robiliar's Gambit
13: Greater TWF (Ranger)
15: Weapon Focus: Whip
18: ?

Keld Denar
2009-08-09, 02:30 PM
Dorf Ranger1/Barb2/Ftr2/Deepwarden2/BearWarrior4/Warshaper4/FrenziedBEARzerker5

Turn into a bear. Turn your hands into those of a person. Hold REALLY BIG SWORD. Power Attack the stuffin out of anything that moves. Best part is, its all (Ex), IIRC.

Totally dependant only on Str and Con, both of which get hugely augemented by Barbarian, Warshaper, Bear Warrior, and Frenzied Berzerker.

Steadfast Determination means you can even dump Wisdom.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 02:43 PM
Keld: Bear Warrior's Bear Form (as Wildshape-type abilities in general) is unfortunately Su, as is the whole Warshaper. The limitation is intentional; these limitations pretty much ensure that stats are going to remain rational.

Other than that, I could see it having serious issues with ranged attacks (though if you can make the feats fall right, Brutal Throw could alleviate that), but it seems like a great baseline.


Now, if you went Frenzy all the way, it'd work out. Less impressive numbers tho.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 02:45 PM
Hey, does ironheart surge remove the worldwide AMF? :smallbiggrin:

ColdSepp
2009-08-09, 02:56 PM
Dragonborn can get wings, for LA 0.

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 02:57 PM
Dragonborn can get wings, for LA 0.

Dragonborn is banned for this challenge.

playswithfire
2009-08-09, 03:37 PM
Definitely intrigued and will be submitting some characters once I wrap my brain around some ideas.

ColdSepp
2009-08-09, 03:42 PM
Dragonborn is banned for this challenge.

I only saw Raptorian, my bad.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 03:47 PM
I only saw Raptorian, my bad.

Dragonborn isn't allowed as a template. Templates simply mean that you're suddenly dealing with a bunch of characters with really amazing bloodlines rather than the Mundane Heroes-feel I'm going for here.

Just your normal Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Humans or Orcs who are really good at what they do and slay dragons and kill demons on back of their wits and skill alone without any magical abilities aiding them. Basically, the kind of heroes basically all older fantasy-books tell of.

Templates and LAd races would make them just as magical as your average D&D characters, just in a different ways with unbelievable lineages and heritage.


I'm also going to clarify the OP a bit and add a set of character creation guidelines in their own section since picking the information from the challenge parameters seems to be difficult.

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-09, 04:07 PM
Hmm. lack of flying will be a problem. what about...

a TWF lance spell-less ranger on a dire bat to get flying. hopefully planar ranger for the extra oomph in the animal companion. possibly with levels of beast-master to get the extra animal companions. specializes with AoOs (whisper gnome spell-less planar ranger 17/ wild plains outrider 3) uses robilars gambit. 16 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 8 wis, 6 cha

knight tank with ranks in handle animal to get a mount that lets the knight fly (small knight if large flying mounts are unavailable) (orc knight 20) 22 str, 10 dex, 20 con, 6 int, 6 wis, 13 cha

rogue/swashbuckler/barbarian ubercharger with jump specialization. (strongheart halfling or human rouge 1/lion totem barbarian 1/rouge 2-3/sneak attack fighter 2/swashbuckler 14) 16 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 8 wis, 8 cha (this one might not be what I am looking for. If i had ToB, I would probably put in a crusader instead, because I hear they can heal)

archer swift ambush hunter with distracting attack. (strongheart halfling or whisper gnome (sh for stats) scout 3/rouge 1/ranger 1/scout 4-18) skill monkey. variant that sacs evasion to allow it to deflect missed spells/spell like abilities. also has freedom of movement from 18 levels of scout. 12 str, 20 dex, 18 con, 12 int, 8 wis, 8 cha (if I counted correctly, with "Deadeye Shot," and "improved skirmish" he gets at 20th level...1d8 longbow+6d6 skirmish+10d6 sneak attack+1 str on either 3 or 4 attacks (I need to get the fractional BaB down) he also has 40 ft movement (50 ft if whisper gnome), and freedom of movement constantly. skirmish applies to the favored enemies also.

invisibility isn't a problem because the scout and bat(s) have blind-sense, so all they have to know is that there is or isn't an enemy within 30 ft, then they throw around things like flour on it, or get the things with blindsense to move around until they know where it is, then attack it, and then it will be dripping blood, arrow in it, etc. or, seeing as the majority have listen as class skills, they could just hear it.

does that cover everything?

paddyfool
2009-08-09, 04:11 PM
Also, without magic, you're likely to struggle in an aquatic encounter, particularly any of the party that happen to be wearing full plate. Without even access to a potion of water breathing, a lot of characters will simply drown in such a scenario.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 04:15 PM
Also, without magic, you're likely to struggle in an aquatic encounter, particularly any of the party that happen to be wearing full plate. Without even access to a potion of water breathing, a lot of characters will simply drown in such a scenario.

Let's not worry about this. Aquatic campaigns are sparse relatively speaking and shores and ships make encounters involving aquatic creatures possible without the characters actually being capable of swimming.

But yeah, feel free to ignore any adventures that would require extensive dips in lava pools, water pools or the like.


And yeah, I updated the OP now with hopefully more clearly stated character creation guidelines. Do say if I forgot to state something relevant.

Myrmex
2009-08-09, 04:18 PM
Do the enemies have access to magic? I am assuming yes. This makes Forcecage really, really gnarly.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 04:24 PM
Do the enemies have access to magic? I am assuming yes. This makes Forcecage really, really gnarly.

Yeah, the enemies have access to casting. To quote the OP:

"Capable of defeating 4 level appropriate encounters or 1 level+4 encounter with their daily abilities throughout the levels (from 1 to 20). Note that these encounters are allowed their full set of abilities; they aren't constrained by the same no-magic limitations the party is. I'm assuming ones straight from Monster Manual here though."


So yes, the adversaries have full access to magic, but they are constrained by the spell choices and builds in MM1 (this means that you won't be trying to kill an optimized Wizard 20 even though that's technically a CR 20 encounter).

This means that even none of the CR 20 encounters around actually have an access to Forcecage, and even the encounters that do are vulnerable to readied action disruption. But yeah, it's also a party of 4 characters, so one being out of action is affordable. Getting the guy out of Forcecage is of course a different matter entirely.

olentu
2009-08-09, 04:24 PM
Let's not worry about this. Aquatic campaigns are sparse relatively speaking and shores and ships make encounters involving aquatic creatures possible without the characters actually being capable of swimming.

But yeah, feel free to ignore any adventures that would require extensive dips in lava pools, water pools or the like.


And yeah, I updated the OP now with hopefully more clearly stated character creation guidelines. Do say if I forgot to state something relevant.

I believe that in you have neglected to state as you did in a later post that all teleportation is banned.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 04:34 PM
I believe that in you have neglected to state as you did in a later post that all teleportation is banned.

In that post, I was merely listing the consequences of no magic and thus the hurdles these builds should seek to overcome. Teleportation, if Ex (I suppose you're referring to Shadow X-line from ToB here), is perfectly alright. Just, this rule set pretty much means it's not really available, which is what I was stating there.

Shadow X maneuvers are fine, and not very impressive given that they require Line of Sight and Line of Effect to function, thus not really getting you out of many kinds of hurdles.

olentu
2009-08-09, 04:47 PM
In that post, I was merely listing the consequences of no magic and thus the hurdles these builds should seek to overcome. Teleportation, if Ex (I suppose you're referring to Shadow X-line from ToB here), is perfectly alright. Just, this rule set pretty much means it's not really available, which is what I was stating there.

Shadow X maneuvers are fine, and not very impressive given that they require Line of Sight and Line of Effect to function, thus not really getting you out of many kinds of hurdles.

Well if it was just a generalization then there is no problem. Now that I think about it you might also want to place grafts under the same rule as inherent bonuses as I seem to remember that they are nonmagical.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 04:53 PM
Done and done. I included the "Hurdles to Overcome" in the OP too as a reminder of what special issues this challenge represents and where to focus on the character building.

I also added few houserules to the mix (things I often use in low-magic games), most relevantly:
-Every class has 4 extra skill points per level (quadrupled on level 1, as per normal).
-Every character has ½ their character level rounded down as a Dodge-bonus to AC (because you're losing AC from at least 4 sources in Deflection, Natural Armor, Armor Enhancement and Shield Enhancement along with Dex boosters - comparatively, you only lose 2 sources of weapon bonuses in weapon enhancement and Str-boosters)
-Two-Weapon Fighting tree got rolled into one, as did Two-Weapon Defense. Now TWF Ranger gets TWF on 2, TWD on 6 and Two-Weapon Rend (PHBII) on 11.

EDIT: Oh, and Ranger's animal companion got buffed to "Druid Level - 3" over ½ Druid Level (in this challenge, I'm not giving him full companion progression even though normally I would since that would make Ranger too obvious a choice for...everything).

olentu
2009-08-09, 05:13 PM
Done and done. I included the "Hurdles to Overcome" in the OP too as a reminder of what special issues this challenge represents and where to focus on the character building.

I also added few houserules to the mix (things I often use in low-magic games), most relevantly:
-Every class has 4 extra skill points per level (quadrupled on level 1, as per normal).
-Every character has ½ their character level rounded down as a Dodge-bonus to AC (because you're losing AC from at least 4 sources in Deflection, Natural Armor, Armor Enhancement and Shield Enhancement along with Dex boosters - comparatively, you only lose 2 sources of weapon bonuses in weapon enhancement and Str-boosters)
-Two-Weapon Fighting tree got rolled into one, as did Two-Weapon Defense. Now TWF Ranger gets TWF on 2, TWD on 6 and Two-Weapon Rend (PHBII) on 11.

EDIT: Oh, and Ranger's animal companion got buffed to "Druid Level - 3" over ½ Druid Level (in this challenge, I'm not giving him full companion progression even though normally I would since that would make Ranger too obvious a choice for...everything).

I guess that there are some spells that are of instantaneous duration that grant things such as the fire subtype, cold subtype, and so forth that you may also wish to ban. That is all that has come to mind at the moment.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 05:16 PM
I guess that there are some spells that are of instantaneous duration that grant things such as the fire subtype, cold subtype, and so forth that you may also wish to ban. That is all that has come to mind at the moment.

Since supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, spellcasting, psionics, grafts and magic items (well, their magical effects anyways) are banned, I can't honestly see how anyone would gain access to those.

Overall, the blanket "no spellcasting" covers practically everything.

olentu
2009-08-09, 05:21 PM
Since supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, spellcasting, psionics, grafts and magic items (well, their magical effects anyways) are banned, I can't honestly see how anyone would gain access to those.

Overall, the blanket "no spellcasting" covers practically everything.

I was assuming that one would get it in the same way that one would acquire an inherent bonus since the manuals are wondrous items and wish is a spell. Buy it from a solar or something.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 05:34 PM
I was assuming that one would get it in the same way that one would acquire an inherent bonus since the manuals are wondrous items and wish is a spell. Buy it from a solar or something.

Hm, maybe the specification of "inherent bonuses" was excessive, as you can't really acquire them. Basically, I figured I'd specifically mention it since it's a one-use item that grants a permanent bonus. I'm aware of no other such items (other than the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds).

Indon
2009-08-09, 07:06 PM
All right, given detailed character creation rules, I'm going to make a more detailed Marshal 20 build as a start to building a full party. He's not particularly optimized - outside of his class, I'm mostly sticking to Core because I'm lazy. But I think I can build a fairly good, or at least realistic, benchmark party.

Parenthetical values next to headers denote potential aura bonuses that are not otherwise accounted for.


Lane
Human CG Marshal 20
Str-14, +2
Dex-14, +2
Con-14, +2
Int-12, +1
Wis-12, +1
Cha-23, +6 (18+5 from leveling)

HP: 20D8+60 (150)
Initiative (+6): +6
Speed (+20): 20

Attacks (+4):
+19/+14/+9 Adamantine Greatsword, 2d6+3 19-20x2, with which he prefers to Sunder if useful.
+18/+13/+8 MW Composite(+2) Longbow, 1d8+2 x2.

AC (+4):
10+8(Armor)+2(Dex)+10(Dodge Houserule)=30

Saves (+6 individually, +4 to all):
Fort-12+2= +14
Ref-6+2+2(Feat)= +10
Will-12+1= +13

Special Abilities:
Can activate one of his auras (an Ex ability) as a swift action. They work on all allies within 60 feet. May maintain one Minor and one Major aura at any given time, indefinitely.

Takes the following auras:
Minor (+6 Circumstance Bonus): Fort Saves, Ref Saves, Will Saves, Disarm/Trip/Bull Rush/Sunder checks, Dex checks/skills/Initiative, Cha checks/skills, Int checks/skills, Str checks/skills.

Major (+4 Circumstance Bonus): Melee Attack Rolls, Ranged Attack Rolls, AC, Speed (5xbonus), All Saves (does not stack with minor save auras).

Can also grant a move action to any allies within 30 feet as a standard action 1/day at 4th level and one additional time a day every 4 levels.

Skills: (Max ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Ride, Swim, Climb(CC), has 1 rank in Perform (Kazoo), and knows and can read 12 additional languages)

Total rolls (+6 for Int/Cha/Str/Dex skills):

Diplomacy-23+6+3(Class Feature)+2(Feat)+2(Bluff Synergy)+2(Sense Motive Synergy)= +38 (Note: +44 total w/aura)
Bluff-23+6= +29
Intimidate-23+6= +29
Sense Motive-23+1+2(Feat)= +26
Spot-23+1= +24
Listen-23+1= +24
Ride-23+2= +25
Swim-23+2-3= +22
Climb-11+2-3= +10
Perform(Kazoo)-1+6= +7

Feats:

Human: Negotiator
1: Power Attack
2: Improved Sunder
4: Weapon Focus - Greatsword
6: Combat Brute
8: Mounted Combat
10: Mounted Archery
12: Improved Initiative
14: Spirited Charge
16: Improved Toughness
18: Goad (Save DC 26)
20: Lightning Reflexes


Gear:
Mithril Full Plate - +8 AC, +3 Max Dex, -3 ACP.
Adamantine Greatsword - +1 To-Hit, 2d6+3 19-20x2, penetrates hardness under 20.
Masterwork Composite(+2) Longbow - +1 To-hit, 1d8+2 x2, Range increment 110.

Lane functions as the party spokesman and pseudo-diplomancer. Frankly, aside from being a walking replacement for passive magic items, he's not good for much else, unless you get creative anyway.

Lane fulfills the following critical role for the nonmagical party:
-Supplies +X Offensive (ranged or melee to-hit), Defensive (AC and all saves), and Skill/Ability Check (Dex/Cha/Int/Str-based) bonuses, X being 4 or 6 depending.

Fun fact: Lane can get +17 to Diplomacy at 1st level (And [email protected]) using his Motivate Charisma minor aura, if you go with that aura first anyway. It should be noted that this aura is strongly implied to involve him talking to himself about how to talk better - and yet, gives him a bonus nonetheless.

Myrmex
2009-08-09, 08:13 PM
Yeah, the enemies have access to casting. To quote the OP:

"Capable of defeating 4 level appropriate encounters or 1 level+4 encounter with their daily abilities throughout the levels (from 1 to 20). Note that these encounters are allowed their full set of abilities; they aren't constrained by the same no-magic limitations the party is. I'm assuming ones straight from Monster Manual here though."


So yes, the adversaries have full access to magic, but they are constrained by the spell choices and builds in MM1 (this means that you won't be trying to kill an optimized Wizard 20 even though that's technically a CR 20 encounter).

This means that even none of the CR 20 encounters around actually have an access to Forcecage, and even the encounters that do are vulnerable to readied action disruption. But yeah, it's also a party of 4 characters, so one being out of action is affordable. Getting the guy out of Forcecage is of course a different matter entirely.

Mmm, sorry, missed that.

So monsters are ONLY coming from MM1? Cause there's that one thing from MM2 or FF with Forcecage & Disintegrate as Sp abilities. Called a juggernaught or something. CR 12. I think.

What about monsters with spellcasting, like Dragons. How are their lists generated?

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 08:24 PM
Mmm, sorry, missed that.

So monsters are ONLY coming from MM1? Cause there's that one thing from MM2 or FF with Forcecage & Disintegrate as Sp abilities. Called a juggernaught or something. CR 12. I think.

What about monsters with spellcasting, like Dragons. How are their lists generated?

I will pretend I lost my mind and pick random buff-, SoD and damage spells (outside their breath element) to suit a young, aggressive dragon. Though Forcecage and some better spells are also a possibility, mostly no-save effects shouldn't be an issue (though if someone comes up with a way to counteract Forcecage, more power to them).

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 08:28 PM
I will pretend I lost my mind and pick random buff-, SoD and damage spells (outside their breath element) to suit a young, aggressive dragon. Though Forcecage and some better spells are also a possibility, mostly no-save effects shouldn't be an issue (though if someone comes up with a way to counteract Forcecage, more power to them).

Legendary Dreadnaught can counter forcecage, but thats epic only.

If you allow artifacts, the angelwing razor from BoVD can cut through walls of force.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 09:04 PM
Legendary Dreadnaught can counter forcecage, but thats epic only.

If you allow artifacts, the angelwing razor from BoVD can cut through walls of force.

I hope nobody gets the bright idea of submitting a Dragonwrought Kobold and somehow screwing the rules to get 23 BAB pre-epic...

quick_comment
2009-08-09, 09:42 PM
I hope nobody gets the bright idea of submitting a Dragonwrought Kobold and somehow screwing the rules to get 23 BAB pre-epic...

I would allow that as DM. Legendary dreadnaught is awesome, and not overpowered at all.

Incarnate Animated Cauldron(large)/Dungoncrasher Fighter 6/Warblade 7/Legendary Dreadnaught 5 (DM fiat to allow legendary dreadnaught) = kool aid man.

Eldariel
2009-08-09, 09:44 PM
I would allow that as DM. Legendary dreadnaught is awesome, and not overpowered at all.

Incarnate Animated Cauldron(large)/Dungoncrasher Fighter 6/Warblade 7/Legendary Dreadnaught 5 (DM fiat to allow legendary dreadnaught) = kool aid man.

I sorta agree, actually. I always thought Dreadnought should be a non-epic PrC, with slightly smaller numbers maybe. It's just the kind of thing melee types should be getting around 11-20.

But I digress, it's way outside challenge parameters; not using homebrew or such here.

The Gilded Duke
2009-08-09, 10:28 PM
The Irregulars:

The Dazer:


Orc Fighter 4/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Barbarian 4

Important Feats:
Talantia Boomerang Profeciency
Boomerang Daze
Boomerang Richochet
Mighty Throw
Far Shot

Every turn the Dazer uses Bladestorm to attack every single enemy with his Talantia Boomerang. Each time he hits he can also attack an adjacent target at -2. Each target hit by the Talantia Boomerang must make a fort save dc of 10+Damage Dealt or be dazed for one round. No creature types are naturally immune to daze. Damage and Attack is strength based.


The Scarer:


Spellscale CW Samurai 14/Ronin 1/Scarlet Corsair 5

Important Feats:
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Imperious Command
Dragon Wings
Improved Dragon Wings
Martial Study- Some White Raven
Martial Study- White Raven Tactics

Vow of Poverty helps boost Charisma up and gives some resistances. Improved Dragon Wings lets the Spellscale fly. And then every round as a move and as a standard action the Scarer intimidates all enemies within 30 feet. Those who are intimidated are cowering for one round and shaken for charisma mod +1 rounds. This allows the scarer to then stack fear effects.


The Buffer

Changeling Marshal 20

Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Martial Study- Low Level White Raven Ability
Martial Study- White Raven Tactics
Undead Empathy
Racial Emulation
Sociable Personality


Use the Sacred Vow stat boosts to boost charisma.
Minor Aura- Motivate Charisma
Major Aura- Motivate Ranged Attacks

Changeling to have Use Language as a class skill. Take all languages. Max out diplomacy. Try to use diplomacy every round. Mindless undead aren't immune to your diplomacy powers. You can reroll diplomacy rolls. If you are up against creatures immune to diplomacy, give other characters additional actions.


The Healer:

Human Rogue 1/Crusader 19
Feats:
Able Learner
Mounted Combat
Ride By Attack
Spirited Charge

Pick up Disable Device and Ride with skill points
Use a flying mount and then use strikes with a lance.
Use Strikes to heal.



The Healer could be better but I think the rest are pretty solid. Not much is immune to diplomacy, intimidate, and daze.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-10, 12:19 AM
I'd probably go with:

Whisper Gnome Swordsage 2/ Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm)/Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) who actually overcomes DR/Magic. Use TWF since Mind Arrows only take one hand to fire, get Darkstalker and nothing will ever notice he's there.

Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter, Natural Bond, and one level of Beastmaster with a Dire Eagle (RoS) or Fleshraker companion. Use the nonspellcasting Ranger variant in CW to get Fast Movement at the 6th class level. Probably go Human for Able Learner at level 1 to be the party skillmonkey.

Crusader or Warblade with Dreadful Wrath, Frightful Presence, Imperious Command, and Never Outnumbered. Probably sword-and-board with Shield Specialization/Ward via flaws. Maybe go Half-Orc or Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) and visit the Otyugh Hole twice to get Skill Focus: Intimidate and Menacing Demeaner without spending any feats on them.

Wolf Totem Barbarian/Warblade, Whirling Frenzy, Lion spiritual totem, Xing Mongoose, Three Mountains, Ability Focus: Three Mountains, dual-wielding Morningstars. Try to get Quick Draw and Brutal Throw so he has some decent ranged capabilities.

Alternatively, four Arcane Swordsages assuming the spells get converted to maneuvers and maneuvers are Extraordinary abilities, but that feels like it's cheating. What about Shadow Weave Magic?

arguskos
2009-08-10, 12:33 AM
I'd probably go with:

Whisper Gnome Swordsage 2/ Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm)/Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) who actually overcomes DR/Magic. Use TWF since Mind Arrows only take one hand to fire, get Darkstalker and nothing will ever notice he's there.
Doesn't work. Soulknife is a Su ability. Sorry to burst your bubble on this one.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-10, 12:35 AM
Doesn't work. Soulknife is a Su ability. Sorry to burst your bubble on this one.
Not quite:

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, the soulknife maintains his mind blade for a number of rounds equal to his class level before he needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on his turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize his mind blade while he remains within the psionics negating effect.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), you can attempt to attack foes with mind arrows by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you can freely produce mind arrows for a number of rounds equal to your class level before you need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, you must wait 1 round before trying again while you remain within the psionics-negating effect.

arguskos
2009-08-10, 12:38 AM
Doesn't matter. The ruling for this challenge is "no Supernatural abilities" and anything else is a violation of the spirit. Note that the character is a good one, but not in the spirit of the challenge.

Draz74
2009-08-10, 02:27 AM
Every non-Ranger should take Wild Cohort. Every character should carry a lot of Flour Pouches (from Dungeonscape).

Overall, I'm still skeptical that this challenge is possible, given some of the crazy magic-using monsters available ...

PId6
2009-08-10, 02:35 AM
How come nobody mentioned Vow of Poverty? If you can't get magic items, you may as well. All the abilities are Ex too.

olentu
2009-08-10, 02:57 AM
How come nobody mentioned Vow of Poverty? If you can't get magic items, you may as well. All the abilities are Ex too.

The problem probably being that all exalted feats are supernatural abilities.

PId6
2009-08-10, 03:27 AM
The problem probably being that all exalted feats are supernatural abilities.
Why are VoP abilities Ex when the feat itself is Su? That's so stupid! Lousy WOTC *grumble* *grumble*

riddles
2009-08-10, 05:22 AM
sounds like a real call for supermount.

either a slow build - ranger 4/paladin 5/halfling outrider 10
or the quick one - paladin 5/beastmaster 1/halfling outrider 10/wild plains outrider 3

even the humble riding dog is an engine of death as a supermount.

Xenogears
2009-08-10, 05:24 AM
Why are VoP abilities Ex when the feat itself is Su? That's so stupid! Lousy WOTC *grumble* *grumble*

Because its super-powerd celestial beings channeling power into you to reflect your sheer devotion to stuff they like I guess?

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-10, 07:48 AM
sounds like a real call for supermount.

either a slow build - ranger 4/paladin 5/halfling outrider 10
or the quick one - paladin 5/beastmaster 1/halfling outrider 10/wild plains outrider 3

even the humble riding dog is an engine of death as a supermount.

paladin's mount is a supernatural ability, so it doesn't work.

Dacia Brabant
2009-08-10, 08:04 AM
Most Paladin abilities (Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, etc.) are Su or Sp actually, which IMO calls for an exception on Eldariel's part to allow them for Pallies: they're not overpowered in the same way that magic is, and it's pretty much an iconic role for the "badass normal" dragonslayers that he's looking for with this.

Likewise with Bards and Bardic Music, although that's a lot easier to cheese out.

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 08:33 AM
Most Paladin abilities (Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, etc.) are Su or Sp actually, which IMO calls for an exception on Eldariel's part to allow them for Pallies: they're not overpowered in the same way that magic is, and it's pretty much an iconic role for the "badass normal" dragonslayers that he's looking for with this.

Likewise with Bards and Bardic Music, although that's a lot easier to cheese out.

Paladins unfortunately can't really qualify due to the sheer quantity of Su-abilities (all the key class features are Su). However, for the same role, you could use Crusader or Knight; they're pretty much fluff-wise the same class (Crusader more so than Knight - Knight is utterly mundane while Crusader still has the "divine inspiration"-thing going on), but mechanically they fit the challenge better.

Paladin as written in D&D is inherently a magically empowered warrior. Much the same could be said for Monk, but all I'll say there is "Use Unarmed Swordsage instead".


That said, I'm not sure about the mount. On one hand, the Mount class feature is in no ways broken, but on the other, allowing it would pretty much make for Ranger/Beastmaster/Prestige Paladin/Halfling Outrider with Devoted Tracker and all that to basically make a ~50HD mount (which is a problem 'cause at that point, it's definitely the mount that's the badass, not the character).

I suppose I could just cap even the combined AC progression at your character level...except that would unwittingly nerf the Beastmaster *grumble* On the other hand, Mount is really no more special than the Animal Companion. Whatever, I'm just gonna say mount is acquired like animal companion and is thus a fair game (because the "call from the celestial realm"-mechanic is the only magical thing about the whole damn thing...well, other than it gaining intelligence I suppose).


By the way, one more houserule: Feats are gained on level 1, level 2 and every 2 levels there-after (4, 6, 8, etc.). This is because now basically everything needs to be done with feats so few extras don't hurt. Oh, and flaws are a fair game.

Indon
2009-08-10, 09:04 AM
Man, so now I need to pick 4 more feats for my Marshal.

MichielHagen
2009-08-10, 09:32 AM
I haven't read the thread, except for 1st post. But i guess ToB is what most characters will be (are some of the swordsage maneuvers considered magical?). Also a Swift Hunter (replacing Ranger spells with Feats from...UA?) might be a fine addition.

Telonius
2009-08-10, 10:11 AM
Hmm, interesting ... my old pirate build actually fits the criteria.

Halfling

Starting Stats:


Str (12-2) 10
Dex (12+2) 14
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12

Rogue1 Quick Draw (1st level feat), Sneak 1d6

Jump 4, Balance 4, Bluff 4, Intimidate 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Tumble 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Appraise 4, Use Rope 4, Swim 4

Rogue1/Swashbuckler(CWar) 1 Weapon Finesse, Extreme Leap skill trick (from skills)

Balance 5, Bluff 5, Jump 5, Tumble 5, Profession (Sailor) 5, Intimidate 5, Extreme Leap Skill trick (CSco)

Rog2/Sws1 Evasion (Rogue), Tumbling Crawl Skill Trick (from skills), Freerunner (CSco) (3rd Level Feat) = Nimble Charge skill trick

Tumbling Crawl skill trick, Appraise 6, Profession 6, Intimidate 6

Rog2/Sws2 Grace +1, +1 Dex

Profession 7

Rog3/Sws2 Sneak 2d6, Hidden Blade skill trick

Profession 8, Bluff 8, Intimidate 8, Appraise 8, Hidden Blade skill trick

Rog3/Sws3 Insightful Strike (Sws), Daring Outlaw (6th level feat) = +3d6 sneak, +1 Dodge to AC
Rog4/Sws3 Uncanny Dodge, Sneak +4d6
Rog4/Sws3/Dread Pirate(CAdv)1 Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 Dex
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/Scarlet Corsair(Stormwrack)1 Improved Feint (Corsair), Improved TWF (9th level feat)
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC2 Sneak +5d6
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC3 Corsair's Feint

Key Equipment: +1 Keen rapier, +1 Keen kukri, +2 Mithral chain, Gloves of Dex +4, Three-Cornered Hat, Spyglass, Parrot

So, at 11th level, that will amount to:

Spoiler

Str 10
Dex 16 (+4 gloves) = 20
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12

+10 BAB
Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +6
Single Attack: 10 +5(dex) +1 (small) +1 (magic) = +17
Full attack: 15/15/10/10, d4+4 on the rapier, d3+4 on the Kukri, both at 15-20x2.
Sneak +5d6
AC = 10 + 5 (dex) +2 (magic) +4 (Mithral Chain) + 1 (Dodge) +1 (Size) = 23


That resulted in a pretty decent mundane character even without the power bumps from the feats, extra point buy, and extra skill points. No time to update it to the houserules at the moment, but I think this could be a contender.

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-10, 11:08 AM
hmm. I wonder. can we use divine feats? it simply requires the ability to turn/rebuke undead, and there are a lot of divine feats that could be useful to people. can we use them?

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 12:56 PM
hmm. I wonder. can we use divine feats? it simply requires the ability to turn/rebuke undead, and there are a lot of divine feats that could be useful to people. can we use them?

They're Supernatural Abilities, as per Complete Divine. Think twice.

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-10, 01:15 PM
They're Supernatural Abilities, as per Complete Divine. Think twice.

Pity. there's one feat in there that a 1 level dip in cleric would get you healing 3+ times a day. I should have known.

Vortling
2009-08-10, 06:47 PM
How does wealth by level work for this? Standard? Reduced? I'm just thinking you could buy a darn lot of alchemical items (ie acid flasks, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc) which can make decent ranged weapons for most characters because they require ranged touch attacks.

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 07:38 PM
How does wealth by level work for this? Standard? Reduced? I'm just thinking you could buy a darn lot of alchemical items (ie acid flasks, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc) which can make decent ranged weapons for most characters because they require ranged touch attacks.

Eh, WBL is normal. Just buy yourself a cozy castle or something with your leftover money. I pretty much assumed you won't be spending even a tenth of your WBL on anything useful by 20, just like real life billionaires, as there just is nothing to spend it on. Though it does make for a nice poison budget.

Charlie Kemek
2009-08-10, 10:04 PM
Hey, I am looking at the druid "Spontaneous Rejuvenation" in the PHII, and no where in the description does it say "this is a supernatural (or spell like) ability." I think it would be nice to have, but then everyone would want to have a druid in their party, so think it should probably be banned, but with my terrible reading skills, I probably just missed something that makes it illegal.

Eldariel
2009-08-10, 10:11 PM
Hey, I am looking at the druid "Spontaneous Rejuvenation" in the PHII, and no where in the description does it say "this is a supernatural (or spell like) ability." I think it would be nice to have, but then everyone would want to have a druid in their party, so think it should probably be banned, but with my terrible reading skills, I probably just missed something that makes it illegal.

Considering you don't have spells, it may be hard to fuel that. Though I applaud you for ingenuity there. Still, may be more constructive to focus on things that do work rather than things that don't.

A non-magical (IIRC) salve exists in A&EG that allows healing so that shouldn't be a problem out of combat. If it doesn't, I'm simply gonna say it does, because that's one thing you can't really do no matter how good you are - keep going forever.

Frosty
2009-08-10, 10:33 PM
How many of the Factotum's abilities are Ex instead of Su?

woodenbandman
2009-08-10, 10:55 PM
I'll submit to you Half Orc Fighter (Zhentarim) 9/ Wizard 5/ Dread Witch5/Barbarian 1

Basic fear build, gets the highest pluses on intimidate possible, and qualifies for dread witch despite being in an antimagic field. with your intimidate maxed you should have like +40 or something like that at level 20 and you can imperious command/swift intimidate anyone who looks at you funny. Intimidating Rage is nice as well.

Wizard is obviously a martial variant wizard.

BAB by the end is +15, which is not really all that desirable, but you're probably the best at encounters with monsters with low wisdom/hit dice (I.E mooks), and it'd be simple enough to staple a basic lance charger build to this stub and make it easy to deal with the big folks as well.

Alleine
2009-08-11, 12:30 AM
How many of the Factotum's abilities are Ex instead of Su?

Their only Sp and Su abilities are spell related, basically the ability to emulate wizards, clerics, and the ability to bypass SR on occasion. Everything else is Ex, including their ability to buy extra standard actions.

If you could snag the web enhancement feat a factotum could seriously tip favor towards the party surviving.

sofawall
2009-08-11, 02:26 AM
Incarnum, maybe? Just throwing it out. It works unless there's transparency, and they're treated as magic items.

Indon
2009-08-11, 06:58 AM
It's not just magiclessness, it's supernaturallessness.

To my knowledge, soulbinds are supernatural abilities.

Amphetryon
2009-08-11, 10:38 AM
Apologies if I missed it earlier:

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), yea or nay?

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 11:03 AM
Apologies if I missed it earlier:

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), yea or nay?

It's forbidden under none of the rules, so it's fine. If you want pets, feel free.

Vortling
2009-08-11, 11:35 AM
Considering you don't have spells, it may be hard to fuel that. Though I applaud you for ingenuity there. Still, may be more constructive to focus on things that do work rather than things that don't.

A non-magical (IIRC) salve exists in A&EG that allows healing so that shouldn't be a problem out of combat. If it doesn't, I'm simply gonna say it does, because that's one thing you can't really do no matter how good you are - keep going forever.

Depends on how you rule on per encounter abilities. There's the Vital Recovery feat from ToB that lets you heal a level based number of hit points per encounter when you recover maneuver(s). Since its a feat with no descriptors, it's a mundane ability. It's questionable if the Crusader can user it out of combat, but the Warblade and Swordsage have no problem recovering maneuvers outside of combat. Even if you can only use it once every 5 minutes during down time it's much faster than anything else available for this challenge.

In an ordinary game there are much better things you could be taking with your feats since the cleric can just patch you up with their stick of vigor or cure x wounds between combats but for this its much more useful.

Eloel
2009-08-11, 12:34 PM
VoP is Su, sorry to pop anyone's bubble

Deepblue706
2009-08-11, 01:37 PM
I'll submit to you Half Orc Fighter (Zhentarim) 9/ Wizard 5/ Dread Witch5/Barbarian 1

Basic fear build, gets the highest pluses on intimidate possible, and qualifies for dread witch despite being in an antimagic field. with your intimidate maxed you should have like +40 or something like that at level 20 and you can imperious command/swift intimidate anyone who looks at you funny. Intimidating Rage is nice as well.

Wizard is obviously a martial variant wizard.

BAB by the end is +15, which is not really all that desirable, but you're probably the best at encounters with monsters with low wisdom/hit dice (I.E mooks), and it'd be simple enough to staple a basic lance charger build to this stub and make it easy to deal with the big folks as well.

I think you ought to consider the Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) (I don't believe this is banned in the challenge). If you're really taking Martial Wizard levels, your Will save won't be so terrible that the lowered WIS will be as much an issue. In return, better STR and CON. Also, you get a Swim speed. Just watch out for fire.

sofawall
2009-08-11, 02:03 PM
It's not just magiclessness, it's supernaturallessness.

To my knowledge, soulbinds are supernatural abilities.

To my knowledge, it doesn't say, but I may have missed it.

Either way, if transparency is up, they're magic items. Is transparency up?

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 02:08 PM
Soulbinds are supernatural. They're hence out. Really, the only non-core system that isn't Su is Tome of Battle (and even it has some magical things). Sad but true. Everything else they made is magical.

It seems like someone at WoTC has a hard-on for magic or something. Which is really why the set of sources is so huge; to scrap all the Ex goodness you can find. Weapon Master, Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer, etc. are all fair game. Too bad so few are familiar with 3.0 material anymore :(

Heck, I'd personally just get 'em online at this point since the chance of finding them any other way is basically nil and they have a bunch of nice material for the games (especially martial PrCs that 3.5 really is lacking in; there's no Weapon Master, no real Archery Specialist, no Master of the Chain, etc.).

Indon
2009-08-11, 03:22 PM
And unless it's a Vancian system, it's unlikely to see much support outside of its' introductory book, either.

I couldn't find any feats that a Marshal could use to enhance his auras - it's his primary and almost his only class feature and there aren't any feats written for it.

ZeroNumerous
2009-08-11, 03:27 PM
(especially martial PrCs that 3.5 really is lacking in; there's no Weapon Master, no real Archery Specialist, no Master of the Chain, etc.).

Actually, there is the Initiate of the Bow in either Races of the Wild or Complete Warrior. It's crappy, but it's an archery specialist.

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 03:40 PM
Actually, there is the Initiate of the Bow in either Races of the Wild or Complete Warrior. It's crappy, but it's an archery specialist.

Order of the Bow Initiate is in Complete Warrior and Cragtop Archer exists in Races of Stone, but the former isn't a class (it's basically a really, really bad joke - requires Rapid Shot and only gives you bonuses if you do a single attack at a single target within 60'... Oh, did I mention that using only a single attack is a really dumb idea and only being able to function within 60' really sucks for an archer?) and the latter specializes in extreme ranges so it feels like too niché a class to call a specialist in archery in general (it's not absolutely horrible though).

The 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate in Sword & Fist on the other hand is really good and there are two other excellent archery-classes too in Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] and Deepwood Sniper [Masters of the Wild] in the rules set, all with different focuses. Too bad all of them have low skill points; archers really, really want Spot & Hide and like Tumble too.


EDIT: To clarify, I'm not trying to contradict you here, just clarifying why I complained about the lack of archery specialists in 3.5.

playswithfire
2009-08-11, 04:43 PM
I've got what should be a pretty decent stub; debating how to spend the last 10 levels; just wanted to get this down.
{table=head]Class|Feats, etc
Ranger| Track, feat[Skill Focus(Handle Animal)], human[Alertness], flaw[Iron Will]
Ranger| Two-Weapon Fighting, feat[Blind-Fight]
Ranger| Endurance
Ranger| ranger[Combat Expertise], feat[Mage Slayer]
Swordsage| Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus
Beast Master| feat[Pierce Magical Protection]
Shiba Protector|
Swordsage| feat[Pierce Magical Concealment]
Ranger|
Ranger| Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, feat[Natural Bond]
[/table]

With a Dire Bat Animal Companion as if I were a 10th level druid to help with the flying enemies and for his echolocation to supplement the scent I'll get from Hunter's Stance for finding invisible enemies. Ranger ACF from Complete Champion trading spells for bonus feats.

Is Swift Hunter a good way to finish this out? Or is there a good Ranger prestige class that fits it well (Dual wielding while riding a giant bat)?

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 05:05 PM
Mounted PrCs (Cavalier, Halfling Outrider, etc.) could be decent, or Bloodclaw Master (ToB; you have 2 levels of 3/4 BAB classes left without losing another point of BAB, which gets you Superior TWF which would definitely help with hitting given the nature of this challenge). As examples, anyways. In general, any TWF or mounted PrC would work. Also notice my Ranger houserules; you get TWF as the whole chain on level 2 and TWD as the whole chain on level 6.

Swift Hunter would work if Skirmish didn't have the pesky "you can't use this while riding" errata. I think I might just get rid of that though; it always struck me as a dumb rule given that riders are natural skirmishers.


@All: Should I link parties and characters submitted in the first post? Would anyone find this helpful?

SydneyLosstarot
2009-08-11, 05:17 PM
Should I link parties and characters submitted in the first post? Would anyone find this helpful?

absolutely!
if you don't mind, please do this

Stompy
2009-08-11, 05:21 PM
...I have absolutely no clue has to start making a character at the moment, but since I have a boatload of money and nothing to spend it on, I may as well build a catapult that shoot castles.

I am thinking about building a rogue/ranger with TWF, a flying animal companion, TWF, and vials of black lotus extract-covered acid flasks at the moment. Heck, warforged may be allowed (I think it's legal), so I just may bathe in the lotus extract (making sure not to kill my companion).

Also, a bit thinking outside the box, would it be allowed if I found green slime, nurtured it in a pit (back at my bling-tastic hideout), took some ceramic vials of it wherever I went (that does not let the sunshine through), fed it constantly, and drained the excess slime into more vials? I want to use this as "alchemical" ranged touch weaponry. Also, I would like to cover the tips of stone-tipped arrows in them, so that if I do land a hit on a creature with them, they basically die. (unless their body produces fire, cold, sunshine, or they cast cure disease.)

EDIT: Also, if I can find some flux slime, I want it (I know it's epic, but you take some of that with you and it radiates an AMF, even if it hardens and loses its adhesive properties. Let's level the playing field! :smallbiggrin:)

Ernir
2009-08-11, 06:09 PM
Does the Jotunbrud [RoF] feat qualify you for Knockback [RoS] in your game? Just saw that Jotunbrud does not quite grant Powerful Build. :smallfrown:

Eldariel
2009-08-11, 06:11 PM
Does the Jotunbrud [RoF] feat qualify you for Knockback [RoS] in your game? Just saw that Jotunbrud does not quite grant Powerful Build. :smallfrown:

I'm leaning towards "Yes", but you'll have to give me a moment to ponder the consequences. I'll try to get back to you within 24 hours.

Eldariel
2009-08-12, 07:33 PM
Added all the submissions I found in the thread to the OP; all but one of them are incomplete in one shape or form and some might not be intended to be actual submissions but rather outlines. Still, for completeness's sake, I listed them all in case the submitters are interested in updating their builds or whatever.

Also, I'm probably tossing some single characters I've been rolling in my head to the club. Maybe they'd be of interest to somebody or something. At any rate, would people want critique on their builds beyond "that's legal" and "that's illegal" or something?


Ernir: Alright, I'm going to say Jotunbrud counts as Powerful Build for prerequisites that can specifically be qualified for through Powerful Build (such as the ones in Races of Stone), but not for ones that require Large size (such as Hulking Hurler or Warhulk).

Indon
2009-08-12, 09:05 PM
Anyone's welcome to make a more optimized version of any of my builds, since I'm sure the Marshal can be built much more effectively and I'm going to build other characters similarly.

I'm very slowly tinkering at a Scout 20 at the moment for this.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-12, 10:10 PM
The hulk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120593) build has a couple of flaws without magic. Specifically, because the Warhulk doesn't have any BAB at all, his BAB is a +8 without his amulet of natural attacks +1 of skillfull. His damage also drops without his Monk's Belt, although I suppose I could switch it out for a spiked chain. Coupled with the capstone ability from Warhulk, he effectively has Whirlwind Attack. With a spiked chain, this goes out to a 20' range. Toss in Improved Trip, and you've got a decent battlefield control specialist.

So, to recap:
Strongheart Halfling
Monk2 (overwhelming assault style)/Stoneblessed 3/Barbarian1 (Both Lion Totem and Mountanous Range ACF)/Crusader1/Hulking Hurler3/Warhulk10

I took out Frenzied Berzerker because the first level adds almost nothing to the build, and has steep feet requirements that would otherwise be crippling to the build.

So, speaking of Feats:

1st: Power Attack (monk bonus), Point Blank Shot (racial bonus), Combat Expertise
2nd: Improved Bull Rush (monk bonus)
3rd: Cleave
6th: Stone Power
9th: Shock Trooper
12th: Shards of Granite
15th: EWP: Spiked Chain
18th: Improved Trip

Mountanous Rage is an (Ex) ability, not (Su), so it is legal. The Martial Spirit stance from Devoted Spirit is, likewise, not declared as (Su). Neither is Stone Power or Shards of Granite.

When he rages, he goes from Strength 6 to strength 48. From Warhulk capstone, he hits everyone in range, which is to say, 20'. Per attack. He's got an iterative attack, so he attacks everyone twice. Every hit he uses Improved Trip (with his enormous Strength, and being considered Large, and having the Improved Trip feat, he's probably going to trip anything short of Big T unless it is incorporeal). He's also got cleave, so if he kills anything during his two free hits on everyone, he gets ANOTHER hit on everyone.

Oh, yes... and for range: He's a Hulking Hurler. He's doing like 8d6 plus the option of full power attack. Just pick up a half ton rock nearby (or car, or piece of a building) and chunk it.

He's pretty good about taking a hit, which is a good thing because there's not a whole lot of non-magical healing around. First, he's got Stone Power, which he uses to take a -5 on all attacks, which hurts, but gives him 10 temporary hit points which refresh every round. So basically, he ignores 10 damage per round. He also completely and totally ignores any form of DR or hardness at the same time, thanks to Shards of Granite. Then he's a Crusader, which means another 5 damage is postponed to the next round, and gives him another +1 on damage output. Then he's healing 2 hit points every time he hits something. So as long as he's got a swarm of mooks, he's not worried about healing.

Sure, he doesn't have the best damage output, but he's good at locking down, maybe even better than the Gatling Tripper, and completely without magic.

the next will be a strongheart halfling who will be the skillmonkey of the party, focusing also on precision-based damage output. Will need a way to figure out how to apply it to undead/constructs/plants without magic, though.

The healer is going to be the trickiest role, because consistant healing is generally magical in nature. Does Marshal have any kind of healing aura?

And because magic doesn't exist, the fourth party member will be another tank. Marshal will also likely make the list, even if he can't heal, because he can buff without it being a (Su) effect.

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-13, 02:04 AM
Frankly, I think there'd be a better shot at producing a useful character under A Game of Thrones d20 for this sort of thing. It's built with low-magic in mind, which D&D simply isn't.

Hann1
2009-08-13, 02:20 AM
Hm, afair Knockback allows some very ugly tripping cheese, but i would have to look that up.
Also look forward to some kinda shiny paladin/cavalier build :smallwink:

Tehnar
2009-08-13, 05:50 AM
Is there a update to the Forsaker (MotW) somewhere? The prestige class is very in the spirit of this challenge but DR 11/+5 is pretty wonky. I couldn't find any.

If not, I can still want to use it, preferably with Bloodstorm blade. Another questions: Does the BBs Thunderous Throw ability (lets you count thrown weapons attacks as a melee attacks) work with Pierce magical protection feat?

Eldariel
2009-08-13, 08:47 AM
Shneekey: Heh, I was going to post something on that template (though with 100% more base Str). Also, it can throw really big rocks under hulking hurler.


Frankly, I think there'd be a better shot at producing a useful character under A Game of Thrones d20 for this sort of thing. It's built with low-magic in mind, which D&D simply isn't.

It wouldn't be much of a challenge if it were easy.


Hm, afair Knockback allows some very ugly tripping cheese, but i would have to look that up.
Also look forward to some kinda shiny paladin/cavalier build :smallwink:

It's mostly the whole Rampaging Bull Rush-line. Dungeoncrasher is frankly the bigger culprit there and it seems more like a necessary tool here than anything else. I'm not pulling the hammer here.


Is there a update to the Forsaker (MotW) somewhere? The prestige class is very in the spirit of this challenge but DR 11/+5 is pretty wonky. I couldn't find any.

If not, I can still want to use it, preferably with Bloodstorm blade. Another questions: Does the BBs Thunderous Throw ability (lets you count thrown weapons attacks as a melee attacks) work with Pierce magical protection feat?

Forsaker is a bit problematic in that the whole "give up magic"-part doesn't really hurt you all that much in this settings. It has not been updated though and it should be fine. I'm gonna say the DR is DR/Magic for the first three points and DR/Adamantine since.

Tehnar
2009-08-13, 10:34 AM
Ok, Im going to skip the Forsaker as it gives a unfair advantage over other prestige classes. Will post the build for my character in a day or so.

Hann1
2009-08-13, 05:13 PM
Basically:
(rought outline)
this much feats for free is insane x.x
Fighter 2/Paladin 6/Ranger(TWF) 2/Cavalier 10

Feats(11 by levels, 2 by fighter, 1 Human)
Mounted Combat
Weapon Focus(Lance)
RidebyAttack
Spirited Charge
Diving Charge
Headlong Rush
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Jotunbrud
TWF, ITWF, ...
Two Weapon Pounce

I assumed that divine feats to use your turn attempts with were banned.
too busy to get the numbers straight, but this should be kinda it(cant check stacking rules right now) well since i dont expect to play this and I dont really have the time i wont be all that precice, but I hope it will do so far^^

1. You get a Pegasus Mount for 120ft fly speed, x4 on a charge, hitting anywhere between 12ft and 360ft after starting the charge thanks to cavalier class features
2. Max Str and Con, rest decent and balanced, no dumps, put every ability gain in strength
3. Double wield masterwork lances(the usual ones for medium characters thanks to full TWF tree from ranger and jotunbrud letting us count as large)
4. Use unstoppable charge 5x per day to get a x5 damage multiplier for your charges(x6 with Headlong Rush); Use Power Attack with shock trooper to get damage bonus for AC Malus; Make a diving charge for another additional 3d6 damage(no idea if they're multiplied)
5. Without unstoppable charge you still got x3(x4) damage multiplier on your charges
6. with your movespeed(flying) you should be able to reach about anybody and get outta range asap again
7. let your mount get some flying feats that enhance its maneuverability for at least good maneuverability or some other nice stuff
8. No idea if your Pegasus is allowed to attack on such a charge, or if you can trample/overrun/etc
9. be imba, dont drop int, so you can get spot/diplo/listen/whatever is needed (UMD just for the giggles:smallwink:)



sorry for not using any capital letters and stuff, but I'm real tired right now^^

Adumbration
2009-08-14, 11:49 AM
Elven Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 with a longbow and poisoned arrows, riding his Roc. Animal companions: 2 Rocs, 1 Dire Eagle, 1 Dire Hawk.

Human Fighter (or Knight) 10/Cavalier 10. Ride one of the Dire Eagles, standard mounted charge build. Can't remember if lances can be poisoned, but if they can, consider it done. Backup bow.

Halfling Rogue 10/Assassin 10. SA guy/skillmonkey with a crossbow and an attitude. Poisons the whole group's weapons. Rides the Dire Hawk.

1 Human Scout 20 with a composite longbow, riding the other Roc when the enemy is landbound. Otherwise stay hidden in plain sight and take potshots at enemies.

Each character also has the Wild cohort feat for their corresponding mounts in case one of them drops.

I'm sure there would be plenty of improvement to be done - optimisation by choice of prestige class, feats, even race perhaps - but these are the bare bones of the idea: the whole party flies.

As an additional note, get Quick Draw for every melee character, and spend all their wealth on poisons and extra weapons that they quick draw after dropping the last one. Invest some money to different material weapons.

Ernir
2009-08-18, 12:12 PM
If this is still going on, I have a level 20 party of heroes.

Helmundur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145740), Scout/Rogue.
Höggmundur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=147053), Frenzied Berserker/Bloodstorm Blade.
Ingimundur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145577), Barbarian/Crusader.
Jörmundur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=145772), Warblade.



Since writing the same thing on every sheet, here's the common equipment for each of them:
Mundane:
100' silk rope
Waterskin
Knife
Torch, x3
Tindertwigs
5 day rations for self and mount.
Backpack, bedroll.
Platinum. Let's say 1000 coins each.

Mount:
Trained Griffon + barding + saddlebags and such.

Alchemical equipment:

Triple weapon capsule retainer: Quickfrost, Quickspark, Ghostblight. The TWF-ing ones have one on each weapon. Spare capsules: Ghostblight, Quickflame, Quickfrost, Quickspark, Quicksilver 4 each.
Antitoxin capsule in capsule retainer. Spare capsules: Leap (4), Stability capsules (4), Antitoxin (3)

The skills and such could probably use some final touches, but overall, I think they are finished.


As a side note - even if nothing comes out of this, I still had fun brewing these guys. This was different, and educational.

Tehnar
2009-08-18, 01:48 PM
After a slight delay I submit my build. When making this character I had three goals in mind. Make a quality thrower build, use the weapon supremacy feat and try to use as little of ToB material as I can. Since I am using the bloodstorm blade and was strapped for feats I had to use two levels of warblade. Another goal was to make this build as organic as possible, that is why I am taking warblade levels so early.

Harl, human fighter 4/warblade 1/bloodstorm blade 4/warblade +1/fighter +10

STR 17 +5 (level) = 22
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 9

HP:10+13d10+6d12+60+20=200
Fort:12+3= +15
Refl: 6+3= +9
Will: 6+2= +8

Feat list:
Fighter 1: Exotic weapon proficiency (harpoon), quick draw, point blank shot
Fighter 2: weapon focus, precise shot
Fighter 3: rapid shot
Fighter 4: blindfighting, weapon specialization
Warblade 5: -
BB 6: combat focus
BB 7: -
BB 8: ranged weapon mastery (piercing), far shot
BB 9: -
Warblade 10: Pierce magical concealment
Fighter 11: -
Fighter 12: mage slayer, combat vigor
Fighter 13: -
Fighter 14: combat awareness, greater weapon focus
Fighter 15: -
Fighter 16: greater weapon specialization, pierce magical protection
Fighter 17:
Fighter 18: improved rapid shot, improved toughness
Fighter 19:
Fighter 20: Weapon supremacy, Woodland archer

Equipment: Mithril breastplate, 3 mwk cold iron harpoons, 3 adamantine harpoons, 3 mwk silvered harpoons, composite longbow (+6 STR bonus), 60 arrows with same metal composition as harpoons, 200 ft of silk rope, 6 bags of flour

Attacks:
Harpoon(melee, two handed): +29, d10+13, 20/x2
Harpoon(ranged): +28, d10+12, 20/x2
Harpoon(thunderous throw): +31, d10+12, 20/x2

AC: 10+5+3=18

Maneuvers:
Emerald Razor
Punishing Stance
Steely Strike
Action Before Thought
Iron Heart Surge (from second warblade level)

Skills tricks:
Clarity of Vision


Advantages:
- range increment 80ft (100 ft ??)
- ranged attacks count as melee (thunderous throw)
- thrown weapons are returning and can use same thrown weapon to make all attacks in one round (lightning ricochet)
- fast healing 4, +4 to will, blindsight 5', know current hp condition of any adjacent creature
- harpoon hits can reduce target speed by 1/2
- unaffected by grappling
- can dispel bonus to AC
- unaffected by any magical miss chance (including that from spells like ghostform)
- can use clarity of vision to detect invisible creatures

Disadvantages:
- poor AC, except a good hp pool, no other damage mitigation
- mediocre saves

Draz74
2009-08-18, 01:59 PM
weapon supremacy feat ... I am using the bloodstorm blade

Weapon Supremacy requires Fighter level 18. Your first two Warblade levels, and all of your Bloodstorm Blade levels, don't count towards Fighter levels, so you don't meet this prerequisite.

Tehnar
2009-08-18, 02:09 PM
Weapon Supremacy requires Fighter level 18. Your first two Warblade levels, and all of your Bloodstorm Blade levels, don't count towards Fighter levels, so you don't meet this prerequisite.

Weapon aptitude of Bloodstorm Blade allows you to treat the combination of BB and Warblade levels - 2 as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats that require a minimum fighter level.

Draz74
2009-08-18, 04:33 PM
Weapon aptitude of Bloodstorm Blade allows you to treat the combination of BB and Warblade levels - 2 as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats that require a minimum fighter level.

Hmmm. Evidently I need to review Bloodstorm Blade. :smallredface: