Fear my Magic Missile!

[Lilienthal]

Or: BBEG Killing on a Budget

I've started this thread to continue a terribly off-topic discussion that originated here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6667936#post6667936). To summarise, it is my contention that at lower levels, it is nigh impossible for a party to deal with an encounter that is well above their suggested EL. I'd like to leave "lower levels" intentionally vague, but I'd likely put it at anything under fifth level, and to a lesser extent between fifth and tenth. As for the encounters, the DMG uses the term "Overpowering" for an encounter where the EL is more than 4 levels higher than the Party Level. Regardless, this is more a theoretical than a practical exercise.

Basically, I argued that a balanced, low-level party has no chance in hell to take out the BBEG, midboss or a similarly challenging enemy or organization that's several levels above them. While that sounds logical, mostly due to DnD's combat system, the same does not hold true for higher level parties.

To clarify with an example, I'll compare a first-level party with a tenth-level one. The object of the exercise is to take down an enemy suitable for a party that's five levels higher. This enemy will not be on his own but will be protected by an organisation, a lair, guards and such.

It is my belief that higher-level parties can succesfully orchestrate a scenario in which they can take their enemy down, whether they crippled his protection, caught him with his pants down or otherwise managed to plot his demise is irrelevant. What's important is that they can come up with a plan to despatch their foe that has a high likelihood of success. This plan is, of course, highly dependant on the setting in which the story takes place and focuses on strategy, not on the PCs' ability.

However, low-level parties do not have the same luxury. Even if they manage to prepare a similar scenario for their enemy, the game system will still prevent them from effectively neutralising the threat: a ranged ambush will mostly fail to hit and will not kill the enemy even on a critical sneak attack, backstabs are similarly ineffective (barring the use of siege weaponry) and the party does not have the skill or the resources for plans that a higher-level group can put into effect.


And that is pretty much the (quite wordy) essence of my argument. :smalltongue:


PS - The original discussion adressed a broader issue, namely the general lack of "punch" of low-level characters and their relation to higher level NPCs. I decided against including that in this post to not turn this into a Great Wall of Text. My basic view of it is that's an inherent disadvantage of DnD's (and most other RPGs') level-based system.

[Berserk Monk]

Your magic missle is no match for my darkness.:smallbiggrin:

[quick_comment]

Brooch of Shielding

[ZeroNumerous]

1st level killing a 6th level creature? Creature wins, hands down. 6HD vs, at maximum, 16 HP from the party Barbarian/Warblade. One hit offs a PC.

1st level sucks. Horribly.

10th vs 15th? Depends on what the creature is.

[Myrmex]

Magic Missile loses to a Shield spell.


1st level killing a 6th level creature? Creature wins, hands down. 6HD vs, at maximum, 16 HP from the party Barbarian/Warblade. One hit offs a PC.

1st level sucks. Horribly.

10th vs 15th? Depends on what the creature is.

Depends on the circumstances. Clever use of silent image and a golem? Sure.

[zarakstan]

Grease, web, etc. etc. there are several ways PCs have a chance even at low levels :smallsmile:

[ZeroNumerous]

Grease, web, etc. etc. there are several ways PCs have a chance even at low levels :smallsmile:

No.

Grease works, ya. Except, wait, CR 6 means stuff can FLY (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php). Or simply ignore being tripped(looking at you, shambling mound, Xorn and Xill).

The only way to survive at level 1 against CR+5 involves cheese and a featureless 100x100x100ft cube.


Depends on the circumstances. Clever use of silent image and a golem? Sure.

The only CR 6s with INT -- in Core: A megaraptor skeleton, centipede and the gray render zombie. And you'd still have to kill them, even if you can distract them with silent image.

[zarakstan]

No.

Grease works, ya. Except, wait, CR 6 means stuff can FLY (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php). Or simply ignore being tripped(looking at you, shambling mound, Xorn and Xill).

The only way to survive at level 1 against CR+5 involves cheese and a featureless 100x100x100ft cube.



The only CR 6s with INT -- in Core: A megaraptor skeleton, centipede and the gray render zombie. And you'd still have to kill them, even if you can distract them with silent image.

Well yes it won't work for every case, but there are ways of dealing with higher level villians.

[ZeroNumerous]

Well yes it won't work for every case, but there are ways of dealing with higher level villians.

I agree, at levels other than 1. A 5th level party compared to a 15th level party would give better results. At very least 5th level can potentially survive against a CR 10 without resorting to a 100x100x100ft cube.

[kpenguin]

The only CR 6s with INT -- in Core: A megaraptor skeleton, centipede and the gray render zombie. And you'd still have to kill them, even if you can distract them with silent image.

Lure it into a water/lava/acid/off a cliff etc. Also, you don't need to kill something to defeat an encounter. Getting past it works just as well.

[zarakstan]

I have had an idea spark, design a party of 4 core only 1st level characters and attempt to beat CR 6s that could prove to have interesting results!

[ZeroNumerous]

Lure it into a water/lava/acid/off a cliff etc. Also, you don't need to kill something to defeat an encounter. Getting past it works just as well.

That'd require the creature to be unable to see the lava/water/acid/whatever. INT -- doesn't mean WIS --. And yes, getting past it works but the implication is killing the creature in question because it's the final encounter of the day.


I have had an idea spark, design a party of 4 core only 1st level characters and attempt to beat CR 6s that could prove to have interesting results!

Isn't that the idea behind this thread?

[Glimbur]

I have had an idea spark, design a party of 4 core only 1st level characters and attempt to beat CR 6s that could prove to have interesting results!

We need some ground rules. For example, if you build for it you can have a pretty silly diplomacy check at first level.

Seriously, though, I think a Beguiler, a Swordsage, a Rogue, and Ranger might do ok. Just all be Whisper Gnomes and Hide your way to victory!

[Thrawn183]

Just buy a whole bunch of warhorses or battle trained riding dogs.

Or go on a quest to help out the local pound and then sic 'em all on the bbeg.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I have had an idea spark, design a party of 4 core only 1st level characters and attempt to beat CR 6s that could prove to have interesting results!

Go for it. I'd be happy to run an encounter-by-encounter play of all the CR 6 monsters and a few assorted CR 6 encounters in the encounter's natural habitats as a test.

Who's up for a challenge? Core and any 1 outside (WotC source) only, no cheese (no diplomancer, no pun-pun, no infinite loops...just build a viable, normal 1st level character), 28 point buy, take the average for starting gold.

[Myrmex]

Grease works, ya.

It only lasts one round, though. Not really long enough to escape. Web works great on fliers, as long as you got a couple anchor points.


The only CR 6s with INT -- in Core: A megaraptor skeleton, centipede and the gray render zombie. And you'd still have to kill them, even if you can distract them with silent image.

If you play D&D like a videogame, of course. There are many other ways to overcome an encounter than simply doing HP damage, though.


[edit]
Ways to be competent at first level:
1. Be a gray elf wizard, take the feat that lets you cast a 2nd level spell (pick web). Prioritize intelligence and charisma. Take the ACF that gives you more spells known. Look up as many 0 level wizard spells as you can find in as many sources as you can, and add them to your spellbook for free. Memorize spells. Now sell your spellbook. Buy magebred riding dogs. Lots of them. Get a tower shield, armor, some flasks of alchemist's fire. Sic the dogs on any problem creatures while you cower behind your shield. If you have a problem the dogs can't handle, assist with spells. Web is for the big bad.

2. Be a half-elf Beguiler with skill focus: diplomacy. Talk your way out of bad situations. Use Disguise Self. With 20 charisma (18 start, 2 age categories), you have +14 to diplomacy at first level, +16 if you have a MW diplomacy tool (like having your papers in order, or a fancy suit or something).

3. Be a kobold sorcerer or wizard (venerable dragonwrought sorcerer loredrake is best). Have a familiar that gives you hide as a bonus, put cross class ranks in hide, and take skill focus: hide and stealthy for feats, with 2 meaningless flaws. Prioritize dex. You should have 20 dex if you put an 18 there. Thanks to a kobold's slight build, it gets +8 to hide due to size. This should give the kobold +23 to hide.

[ZeroNumerous]

It only lasts one round, though. Not really long enough to escape. Web works great on fliers, as long as you got a couple anchor points.

You'd have to have precocious apprentice to have Web. And I was being sarcastic about saying Grease works.


If you play D&D like a videogame, of course. There are many other ways to overcome an encounter than simply doing HP damage, though.

It's very heavily implied to be a BBEG. Defeating the BBEG with one spell is what the literary enthusiast calls an "anti-climax".

[Milskidasith]

So the argument is that a well built level 1 character isn't going to beat a level 6 monster, but a well built level 15 can beat a level 20? I'd say that's obvious.

[ZeroNumerous]

So the argument is that a well built level 1 character isn't going to beat a level 6 monster, but a well built level 15 can beat a level 20? I'd say that's obvious.

The OP specified ECL 10 as the second possibility. Personally I think ECL 5 and ECL 15 are better examples, since it becomes less of a no-contest then.

EDIT:


Go for it. I'd be happy to run an encounter-by-encounter play of all the CR 6 monsters and a few assorted CR 6 encounters in the encounter's natural habitats as a test.

Would the Baleen Whale be impossible then? ECL 1 characters can't have water breathing or anything similar and the whale can--as far as I recall--sink a ship easily.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Would the Baleen Whale be impossible then? ECL 1 characters can't have water breathing or anything similar and the whale can--as far as I recall--sink a ship easily.

Eh...perhaps it can arbitrarily survive on land. Or the PCs encounter it in a subterranean lake, with a 10ft path on each side...enough for the wale to attack into, but not enough to force them into the water.

[ZeroNumerous]

Eh...perhaps it can arbitrarily survive on land. Or the PCs encounter it in a subterranean lake, with a 10ft path on each side...enough for the wale to attack into, but not enough to force them into the water.

...But the whale is Gargantuan.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, the level difference is the same, but look at proportions. A level 10 party against a CR 15 creature and a level 1 party against a level 5 creature is actually a numerical difference that's one greater for the level 10 characters, but a CR 15 encounter is 1.5x their party level, while for the second case it's multiplied by a whopping five. Put level 10s up against a level 50 or equivalent boss and see how they do. :smalltongue:

[Sanguine]

Yeah, the level difference is the same, but look at proportions. A level 10 party against a CR 15 creature and a level 1 party against a level 5 creature is actually a numerical difference that's one greater for the level 10 characters, but a CR 15 encounter is 1.5x their party level, while for the second case it's multiplied by a whopping five. Put level 10s up against a level 50 or equivalent boss and see how they do. :smalltongue:

I think in that scenario the level 1s versus CR5 would have a better chance as the only CR50 creature I can think of off the top of my head has 100 attacks around and ungodly perception skill not to mention DR...

[ZeroNumerous]

I think in that scenario the level 1s versus CR5 would have a better chance as the only CR50 creature I can think of off the top of my head has 100 attacks around and ungodly perception skill not to mention DR...

It's CR 5 higher than their level either way. 6 is 6 times greater than ECL 1. So it'd have to be CR 60 to be equivalent. It's basically another way of saying "The monster kills you."

[quick_comment]

Yeah, the level difference is the same, but look at proportions. A level 10 party against a CR 15 creature and a level 1 party against a level 5 creature is actually a numerical difference that's one greater for the level 10 characters, but a CR 15 encounter is 1.5x their party level, while for the second case it's multiplied by a whopping five. Put level 10s up against a level 50 or equivalent boss and see how they do. :smalltongue:

You are assuming CR is a linear scale which it is quite explictly not.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, lv. 1 vs CR 3, lv. 5 vs. CR 15. lv. 5 still has a better chance, because they just have more tools to work with that can be used cunningly.

[Milskidasith]

It isn't a linear scale, but spell power, in general, increases at a faster rate than CR does. At level 10 compared to level 15, it's fifth level spells compared to eighth level spells; both can destroy the encounter if they get off with planning. At level 1 compared to level 5, you have third level save or dies and first level... webs and grease.

[ZeroNumerous]

Okay, lv. 1 vs CR 3, lv. 5 vs. CR 15. lv. 5 still has a better chance, because they just have more tools to work with that can be used cunningly.

Core CR 15s (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/index.php).

You'll notice something. They're all one of the following: hyperintelligent dragons, unstoppable flying robots or 10th level cleric mummies.

EDIT:
... Webs ...

Web is a second level spell.

[Myrmex]

Web is a second level spell.

Which you either get with Precocious Apprentice or Loredrake.

[Milskidasith]

If you are playing a one level campaign where the point is to kill a bunch of enemies at CR 6, you want to have the highest level spell slots possible; precocious apprentice is an obvious choice.

[arguskos]

If you are playing a one level campaign where the point is to kill a bunch of enemies at CR 6, you want to have the highest level spell slots possible; precocious apprentice is an obvious choice.
Hell, Precocious Apprentice is a great choice in any game that starts at level 1!! I don't know why people hate that feat so much. Yes, it lets a lot of cheese work, but it's also just a good feat in general.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you are playing a one level campaign where the point is to kill a bunch of enemies at CR 6, you want to have the highest level spell slots possible; precocious apprentice is an obvious choice.

That does defeat the purpose of the exercise though. It's not to see if a group of level 1 characters optimized for fighting high level enemies can defeat high level enemies. It's to see if a standard "difficult encounter" (CL +4-5) can be beaten by a level 1 party. Optimizing changes the balance to something that is decidedly atypical: most 1st level parties don't have Precocious Apprentice and the like.

[Skorj]

I just love the fact that most of the discussion about how to beat a tough encounter has been revolving around which spell the caster should take, even at level 1. :smallannoyed:

[Milskidasith]

Here's a question for you: You have a level in wizard. What do you have besides spells? There isn't much else to discuss for such a low level.

[Sanguine]

Here's a question for you: You have a level in wizard. What do you have besides spells? There isn't much else to discuss for such a low level.

Yep for the wizard the rest that is left is Race and feat and I think Elf(for Elven generalist) and Precocious Apprentice are the best choices for that.

[arguskos]

I just love the fact that most of the discussion about how to beat a tough encounter has been revolving around which spell the caster should take, even at level 1. :smallannoyed:
Would you prefer we discuss what weapon the fighter should take? At level one? There are all of like 5 choices, and that's using Exotics!

Spellcasters have at least a couple more options, and thus warrant more discussion. I'm not seeing an issue (especially because a bad choice by the mage can get everyone killed).

[Myrmex]

I just love the fact that most of the discussion about how to beat a tough encounter has been revolving around which spell the caster should take, even at level 1. :smallannoyed:

Welcome to D&D, 3e.

[edit]
I did give three ways to get past fairly high level encounters, above, and none of them depend on spellcasting (though it certainly helps).

[holywhippet]

Rather than grease I'd be tempted to have a druid with one or more entangle spells readied. If your opponent doesn't make their save you can pelt them with ranged attacks for a while.

One of the simplest methods for taking out strong opponents is to pelt them with oil flasks and set them on fire. Oil is cheap and only requires a ranged touch attack to succeed. Of course this method is a bit suss as most adventuring parties don't set forth with a heap of oil flasks.

[AstralFire]

Would you prefer we discuss what weapon the fighter should take? At level one? There are all of like 5 choices, and that's using Exotics!

Spellcasters have at least a couple more options, and thus warrant more discussion. I'm not seeing an issue (especially because a bad choice by the mage can get everyone killed).

I don't think he's complaining about the fact that the discussion is harboring on the most logical and critical part, I think he's complaining about the fact that the most logical and critical part is exclusively the caster's.

[Myrmex]

Rather than grease I'd be tempted to have a druid with one or more entangle spells readied. If your opponent doesn't make their save you can pelt them with ranged attacks for a while.

One of the simplest methods for taking out strong opponents is to pelt them with oil flasks and set them on fire. Oil is cheap and only requires a ranged touch attack to succeed. Of course this method is a bit suss as most adventuring parties don't set forth with a heap of oil flasks.

Heh, I always have my characters carry an abundance of oil. There's rarely a problem that can't be solved with enough fire.

[Jayngfet]

Heh, I always have my characters carry an abundance of oil. There's rarely a problem that can't be solved with enough fire.

Same here, oil, cheap strong flammable alcahol(also good for diplomacy), a few torches, Some wax , and some caltrops. These are things a prepared adventurer never leaves home without. And it costs very little for a couple of donkeys and a cart to pull it on(donkeys due to cheapness and the fact that they don't' run like horses. They also make good diversionary targets).

[Lilienthal]

So the argument is that a well built level 1 character isn't going to beat a level 6 monster, but a well built level 15 can beat a level 20? I'd say that's obvious.
Yes, that's what I thought, but it seemed to spark some debate in the original topic.


If you play D&D like a videogame, of course. There are many other ways to overcome an encounter than simply doing HP damage, though.
[edit]Ways to be competent at first level:[words]
I believe I said it somewhere in the original thread as well, but yes, some scenarios might very well be possible at first level, provided you don't mind gross amounts of cheese or crippling your characters, as is the case here with selling your spellbook. Also, +23 to hide is all very nice, but I don't see where it's going to help, unless you sneak towards the self-destruct lever or drop a ceiling on the Big Bad.


It's very heavily implied to be a BBEG. Defeating the BBEG with one spell is what the literary enthusiast calls an "anti-climax".
True, but acceptable. Whether or not they do it in style, the PCs will have defeated an opponent well out of their league.


Yeah, the level difference is the same, but look at proportions. A level 10 party against a CR 15 creature and a level 1 party against a level 5 creature is actually a numerical difference that's one greater for the level 10 characters, but a CR 15 encounter is 1.5x their party level, while for the second case it's multiplied by a whopping five. Put level 10s up against a level 50 or equivalent boss and see how they do. :smalltongue:
I suspected the problem was due to party growth and the way levels work, but didn't know the math behind it. It certainly seems to confirm that my argument is rather obvious and inherent to the D20 system.



That does defeat the purpose of the exercise though. It's not to see if a group of level 1 characters optimized for fighting high level enemies can defeat high level enemies. It's to see if a standard "difficult encounter" (CL +4-5) can be beaten by a level 1 party. Optimizing changes the balance to something that is decidedly atypical: most 1st level parties don't have Precocious Apprentice and the like.
Indeed, that's the pitfall Myrmex fell into. The characters can be optimized to match their strategy, but they should still be able to deal with "regular" encounters and shouldn't be crippled at higher levels.



One of the simplest methods for taking out strong opponents is to pelt them with oil flasks and set them on fire. Oil is cheap and only requires a ranged touch attack to succeed. Of course this method is a bit suss as most adventuring parties don't set forth with a heap of oil flasks.
Heh, I always have my characters carry an abundance of oil. There's rarely a problem that can't be solved with enough fire.
I have to wonder if 1d3 fire damage per round will be enough, but I suppose that it can be used as the damage-dealer of choice if you manage to subdue your enemy somehow.

[arguskos]

I have to wonder if 1d3 fire damage per round will be enough, but I suppose that it can be used as the damage-dealer of choice if you manage to subdue your enemy somehow.
Well, actually, catching someone on fire does 1d6 per round. An "overwhelming" encounter at level 1 likely can't survive being pelted with lots of oil, then lit on fire, and finally being turned into a ranged pincushion. That's... a lot of stuff, even for a CR 4 or 5 critter.

[Jayngfet]

You know, I think we need to make this a bit more grounded and less vague, pick a CR5 creature, say dire lion, and a group of four first level characters.

I'm going to say a sorcerer, fighter, rogue, and a cleric.

Now, assuming they do that they lay the meat on top of some caltrops and oil, all of which over about 20 to thirty feet around the meat.

Once the caltrops affect it(flatfooted and all), fire an arrow with a tindertwig tied to it.

From there throw a tanglefoot bag. Now it's at one quarter movement speed at best. Now provided you can keep your distance all you need to do is keep throwing bottles of oil, hitting it with crossbows and more tanglefoots and caltrops laid out in the path between it and you. It'll be a long battle but provided it's in crossbow range and everyone is able to stay away from it, with those penalties it'll be moving at about ten feet per round.

A heavy crossbow does about five damage per round, and the die lion has about 60hp. Everyone in the group is proficent in crossbows so aside from ray of enfeeblement, and possibly magic stone, spells don't need to factor in a whole lot.

Not to mention poisoning the bolts, which adds a whole new dimension of possibilities.


Yeah it depends on some gear and the party getting the drop on it, as well as weapon proficencies, but if nothing else the lion should be dead in about three minutes.

This is not to mention you could easily pack the bait with lich dust.


Ideally these spells and poisons and whatnot, when combined should deal some decent STR damage, so by the time it gets to you it's attacks will be pathetic at best and you can hack away without fear of it hitting you or doing any significant damage.

[Kaiyanwang]

Two things allow a low level party to take down big ones:

- Luck + set of rules (example, a 20, 20, hit autokill)

- Skill. Believe it or not, skilled players exist. And 1st level does not sucks, rocks. At first level you see really skilled players.

Said this, yeah, the chance to take down an apparently unbeatable challenge increase with party level, up to epic where CR makes no sense.

[Swordguy]

I you're gonna do this, do it right. The CR system wasn't designed to handle the hyper-optimized characters we see on the forums nowadays. Thusly, a true test of the CR system would involve characters as similar as possible to what WotC actually playtested the system with:

-A blaster wizard
-A rogue designed for trapfinding/disarming, with a secondary focus in mobility, flanking, and damage output
-A tanky fighter (designed for AC and damage output)
-A healbot cleric

Moreover, do it with the basic PHB races, since those were the ones that were guaranteed to be tested against the CR system. Other books weren't, so something like Grey Elves should be off limits.

Now, this also limits the GM - the CR system was tested under non-perfect conditions, and generally within a dungeon environment. Which means that flying creatures aren't going to be able to take advantage of their flight as often as one may think. Finally, the GM has to run the creatures the way they were run during testing - you have to LET the Fighter tank you if he gets adjacent, unless something fairly serious in-character happens (critical hits from other party members qualify, or getting hit with a save-or-die spell...not that that'll matter in a 1st-level playtest).

I'd run 5 games, to give a spread and somewhat minimize the effect of luck. Let it be a dungeon environment (say, a 40x40 room, with a 30% chance, checked at the start of the encounter, of having enough height to allow flight). That's getting reasonably close to the circumstances of the 3.0 playtesting, and will give you an accurate picture of whether a party of level 1's can take on a CR 6 critter with minimal chance of later rule additions (etc) contaminating the test.

That's your baseline data. After that, run it 5 more times in the same conditions (40x40, 30% flight chance) with what we GitPers consider "optimized" characters. That'll give you useful data. I'm interested in seeing the results.

[Talic]

At level 1, the difference for a CR 5 is that the characters will have about 3 times the HP, +4 to attack rolls, access to spells that are roughly 4-5 times as effective, as well as access to over double the available spells.

At level 10? A level 14 party will have 15% more hp, +4 to attack rolls, and access to spells that are moderately more powerful, and access to perhaps 15-20% more spells.

Each level means more at lower levels. Differences are more dramatic.

[Lilienthal]

Well, actually, catching someone on fire does 1d6 per round. An "overwhelming" encounter at level 1 likely can't survive being pelted with lots of oil, then lit on fire, and finally being turned into a ranged pincushion. That's... a lot of stuff, even for a CR 4 or 5 critter.
Ah yes, you're right, I forgot about that.



You know, I think we need to make this a bit more grounded and less vague, pick a CR5 creature, say dire lion, and a group of four first level characters.
It seems that we're not thinking about the same scenario here. While my argument probably holds true for creatures, I posited it with an intelligent humanoid in mind, think your standard villain/BBEG. More precisely, I was questioning the viability of a party taking out a midboss or BBEG that they weren't supposed to take on until further in the story. I then assumed that a party with enough tricks at its disposal would be able to create a scenario in which they can bring their enemy "down to their level" by neutralising his advantages, or in a meta-gaming sense, by getting rid of the abilities that give him his high CR. Furthermore, it's likely that killing him is the result of a succession of encounters, so the PCs need a way to negotiate those as well, though that is were planning is supposed to come in.



I you're gonna do this, do it right. The CR system wasn't designed to handle the hyper-optimized characters we see on the forums nowadays. Thusly, a true test of the CR system would involve characters as similar as possible to what WotC actually playtested the system with:
[...]
That's exactly why I dislike using CRs and ELs, they're terribly unwieldy and unintuitive. For instance, giving a critter fire resistance won't have that much impact on its CR, but it will make sure that holywippet's Kill It With Fire strategy is right out. Low-level parties were just screwed out of their most reliable damage dealer while higher levels have plenty of other tools at their disposal.



I'm interested in seeing the results.
Aren't we all? :smallwink:

[ZeroNumerous]

... or Loredrake.

If you're going that far, why stop there? Be a 1st level kobold paladin. Really, why cheese only a little?

[Fitz]

ok, money where your mouth is?
Sort a team of 4 , create 1 lvl 1 character each using srd only. To keep things fairly even the party is fully rested before the final combat. Run on forum vs srd only cr 4 monster(not character)
Repeat a couple of times with diff monster/party.
See how often the party wins?
Any takers?
Fitz

[zarakstan]

Go for it. I'd be happy to run an encounter-by-encounter play of all the CR 6 monsters and a few assorted CR 6 encounters in the encounter's natural habitats as a test.

Who's up for a challenge? Core and any 1 outside (WotC source) only, no cheese (no diplomancer, no pun-pun, no infinite loops...just build a viable, normal 1st level character), 28 point buy, take the average for starting gold.

Yes we should do this :smallsmile: I'll start a new thread for it!

[SinsI]

Why are you comparing +5 levels at lvl1 to +5 levels at lvl 10?

You should be comparing the multiplier - x6 level, and I'm quite sure
a party of lvl 10 is going to be just as helpless against level 60.

[zarakstan]

Yes we should do this :smallsmile: I'll start a new thread for it!

Here I've made the thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6691025#post6691025

[woodenbandman]

It only lasts one round, though. Not really long enough to escape. Web works great on fliers, as long as you got a couple anchor points.



If you play D&D like a videogame, of course. There are many other ways to overcome an encounter than simply doing HP damage, though.


[edit]
Ways to be competent at first level:
1. Be a gray elf wizard, take the feat that lets you cast a 2nd level spell (pick web). Prioritize intelligence and charisma. Take the ACF that gives you more spells known. Look up as many 0 level wizard spells as you can find in as many sources as you can, and add them to your spellbook for free. Memorize spells. Now sell your spellbook. Buy magebred riding dogs. Lots of them. Get a tower shield, armor, some flasks of alchemist's fire. Sic the dogs on any problem creatures while you cower behind your shield. If you have a problem the dogs can't handle, assist with spells. Web is for the big bad.

2. Be a half-elf Beguiler with skill focus: diplomacy. Talk your way out of bad situations. Use Disguise Self. With 20 charisma (18 start, 2 age categories), you have +14 to diplomacy at first level, +16 if you have a MW diplomacy tool (like having your papers in order, or a fancy suit or something).

3. Be a kobold sorcerer or wizard (venerable dragonwrought sorcerer loredrake is best). Have a familiar that gives you hide as a bonus, put cross class ranks in hide, and take skill focus: hide and stealthy for feats, with 2 meaningless flaws. Prioritize dex. You should have 20 dex if you put an 18 there. Thanks to a kobold's slight build, it gets +8 to hide due to size. This should give the kobold +23 to hide.

If that's not playing DnD like a videogame, I don't know what is.

[ZeroNumerous]

If that's not playing DnD like a videogame, I don't know what is.

http://www.beatrix.pro.br/vampire-bloodlines/wp-content/uploads/the_temple_of_elemental_evil_coverart.png

[Lapak]

Well, actually, catching someone on fire does 1d6 per round. An "overwhelming" encounter at level 1 likely can't survive being pelted with lots of oil, then lit on fire, and finally being turned into a ranged pincushion. That's... a lot of stuff, even for a CR 4 or 5 critter.I'm playing in a game right now where we proved this theory without planning ahead to do so. We happened to have a lot of backup light sources after raiding a supply room, and we ended up smashing lanterns and pouring oil on the ground and/or creatures to provide literal firepower and temporary blockades in three separate encounters before we hit level 2.

[kentma57]

I agree, at levels other than 1. A 5th level party compared to a 15th level party would give better results. At very least 5th level can potentially survive against a CR 10 without resorting to a 100x100x100ft cube.

I was in a party of 3 5th level casters and we managed to kill a CR 15 general and his two CR 8 bodyguards.
And no we where not power gaming0, and we did not ambush him, it's all about being prepared and addapting to your enemies weaknesses.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...take the feat that lets you cast a 2nd level spell...
From where? It sounds interesting.

Now sell your spellbook.
:eek:

3. Be a kobold sorcerer or wizard (venerable dragonwrought sorcerer loredrake is best). Have a familiar that gives you hide as a bonus, put cross class ranks in hide, and take skill focus: hide and stealthy for feats, with 2 meaningless flaws. Prioritize dex. You should have 20 dex if you put an 18 there. Thanks to a kobold's slight build, it gets +8 to hide due to size. This should give the kobold +23 to hide.[/QUOTE
1.) Loredrake? Huh? 2.) Two MEANINGLESS flaws? A. flaws are optional, and B. meaningless flaws usually aren't allowed. 3.) Kobolds don't get slight build...:smallconfused:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Would you prefer we discuss what weapon the fighter should take? At level one? There are all of like 5 choices, and that's using Exotics!

Spellcasters have at least a couple more options, and thus warrant more discussion. I'm not seeing an issue (especially because a bad choice by the mage can get everyone killed).

Sorry about double-posting, I'm on a friend's computer and am unfamaliar with the format (well, mostly the mouse), so putting two quotes in a post is, well, something I'm not sure how to.

Anyways. I think the thing is more that spellcasters=primary characters in many parties, as CoDzilla and Batman wizards (who came up with that name, anyway?) should show.

[ZeroNumerous]

And no we where not power gaming0, and we did not ambush him, it's all about being prepared and addapting to your enemies weaknesses.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you. Regardless of whether I do or don't, your story only confirms my statement. Level 5+ has a chance against CR 6+ or higher. Level 1 vs CR 6 does not.


3.) Kobolds don't get slight build...:smallconfused:

Wizards Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why are you comparing +5 levels at lvl1 to +5 levels at lvl 10?

You should be comparing the multiplier - x6 level, and I'm quite sure
a party of lvl 10 is going to be just as helpless against level 60.

See above post two above for why I triple-posted. :smallredface:

Anyways, it's been said: No, that's not right. If it was, you'd add CRs together to determine ECL. :furious: Pay attention to what others post!

Edit: Now on 3rd page!

[GreatWyrmGold]

http://www.beatrix.pro.br/vampire-bloodlines/wp-content/uploads/the_temple_of_elemental_evil_coverart.png

First off, I really need to figure out this mouse. No buttons, just push on the top...how do you open "Quote" in a new tab or window or something with it?

Anyways, that's more of playing a video game like D&D.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wizards Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon.

Thanks. That was fast.

[Leewei]

Depending on the nature of the encounter, there are a large number of first level spells and class features that can end an encounter.

Examples:
A well-placed raging Barbarian with a 2Her can Great Cleave through several moderately tough opponents.

A druid with decent charisma could use Wild Empathy to persuade the Baleen Whale to simply leave -- or the druid could resort to charm animal and have a friendly whale for an hour.

Arcane casters can use charm person on a humanoid opponent with similar results.

A mildly-cheesed first level Bard can grant everyone else in the party a +3 to attack and damage rolls. This includes familiars, animal companions, summoned creatures and so on.

[ericgrau]

Eh that just means that 10th level characters have more cheesy tricks at their disposal, not that DM will always allow them. He will allow some, but those tend to be less overpowering and I wouldn't really call those ones cheesy.

Low level characters may not be able to create their own trick fuel like high level guys can, but they can still use the outside environment. Like the elven way: Climb a few trees, set up arrow slits for +10 to hide and +8 AC, set up bridges for hit and run tactics. Probably want a few +1 arrows just in case. Now camp and keep watch so you're most likely to get the surprise round. Ready actions to disrupt enemy's first actions. Bam, now you can take on opponents well over "overwhelming" CR. Right up until the point where you fail to disrupt a wind wall and the caster is able to fly through the windwall fast enough (i.e., single move) to negate your improved cover or get in spell range (only on a failed save) and kill you before you try to disrupt him again. Assuming he's even lucky enough to have the right spells prepped and didn't, for example, ban evocation (for wind wall).

The thread title also reminded me of the trick where enough level 1 casters with magic missile can take down almost any opponent regardless of level. Unless he remembered to prep the right defenses, which is rare.