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zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:20 PM
This is about a home-brew system of magic I am making, I am wondering what kind of abuse at-will summoning is open to. You would be able to, essential, depending on your level at-will the summon-monster spells available to you, thoughts?

Flickerdart
2009-08-09, 08:22 PM
Summon Monster at-will means that you could utterly rape action advantage. Your Fighter runs in to attack? You make a new Fighter every turn, as opposed to just making one once.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:23 PM
Summon Monster at-will means that you could utterly rape action advantage. Your Fighter runs in to attack? You make a new Fighter every turn, as opposed to just making one once.

Yeah I think it would be totally broken O.o, you would have to succeed on a check though . . .

Green Bean
2009-08-09, 08:25 PM
Don't forget the effect this will have on traps. Why bring a rogue along when you can summon a badger or monkey to try every door, window, chest, and hallway?

Vortling
2009-08-09, 08:25 PM
How many summons are you allowed at one time and how long do they persist? Summon Elemental (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Summon_Elemental,CM) lets you summon one at a time and it's hardly abusive. Though it does mean that any trap that can be set off by a creature walking through the area is entirely moot. If you allow unlimited summons at the same time the players will simply spam them to keep themselves out of harms way. My suggestion is to use the Summon Elemental feat as a guide and restrict the overall number of summons you can have at one time, and keep them weaker than what you can get from the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally line.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:26 PM
True, considering this would probably be the most broken thing ever does anyone have suggestions on a system of at-will summoning that wouldn't be overpowered, maybe like a cool down time . . .

Myrmex
2009-08-09, 08:33 PM
I would do it thusly:

Give at will summoning to a class. It shouldn't be available to every spell caster ever. It should be more like a class feature. As you level, you get access to more and stronger summons.

If the summon gets killed, there should be a cool down before you can bring it back- an hour would be good. If encounters are paced reasonably, a lost summon won't be a big problem. However, trying to set traps off in a hallway with it means you might get the first one, but not later ones. Alternatively, just have more clever traps. Sure, you trip the trap over there with the summoned creature, now the boulder chases you down the hallway and you get hit by arrows and fire the whole way down.

In combat, you should make sustaining a summon require spending actions concentrating on it, maybe a move action. This makes the caster still able to do stuff, but if he wants to move around, he or his summon has to give up taking actions.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:35 PM
I would do it thusly:

Give at will summoning to a class. It shouldn't be available to every spell caster ever. It should be more like a class feature. As you level, you get access to more and stronger summons.

If the summon gets killed, there should be a cool down before you can bring it back- an hour would be good. If encounters are paced reasonably, a lost summon won't be a big problem. However, trying to set traps off in a hallway with it means you might get the first one, but not later ones. Alternatively, just have more clever traps. Sure, you trip the trap over there with the summoned creature, now the boulder chases you down the hallway and you get hit by arrows and fire the whole way down.

In combat, you should make sustaining a summon require spending actions concentrating on it, maybe a move action. This makes the caster still able to do stuff, but if he wants to move around, he or his summon has to give up taking actions.
Thanks for the advice! I think I will do something like that!

Myrmex
2009-08-09, 08:58 PM
I would also consider having the summoner have to align himself with a set of planes, and from that he would derive many of his class abilities. In this way, you can prevent abuse from people cherrypicking the best stuff yet still be able to include cool, flavorful abilities that have only a slight mechanical benefit.

Perhaps at first level they get either a mephit (elemental planes), quasit (Abyss), imp (Hell), a watered down archon (heavenly planes), a small skeleton (negative energy plane), or some sort of animal (from the outlands or wildlands or whatever).

These would be weak helpers that have mostly utility use, provide bonuses in searches, spellcrafting, fetch water, etc. As the summoner levels, they would gain the ability to buff or control in minor ways, either other summons or allies. They would take the roll of a familiar, but their death would be inconsequential, and they could be a source of RP for the PC who was their master. It'd be like a little summoned helper or an enslaved monster.

At higher levels, the summoner would get more powerful at-will summons that would be more or less generic monsters plucked somewhere from their native plane. These summons should be about online, in power, with Warlock abilities. Rather than conjure an air elemental from the MM, the summoner conjures a watered down version of the air elemental that has mostly a battlefield control ability where it forces a fort save or be checked (see high winds section).

Every round that the summoner wants the summoned elemental to continue checking everyone, he has to spend a move action to keep it behaving (otherwise it will try to break control and do its own thing).

For the summoner who has made a pact with a Lord of Hell, he might conjure a devil that does some Hellfire damage to all enemies every round and provides benefits to allies who also attack the same target as it (double a flanking bonus, for instance).

Mechanically, we see something similar to an invoker- actions spent to trade actions with something else, or deal damage, are relatively balanced in power. When we start seeing multiple actions being taken, then there are power issues. Multiple actions at higher levels is fine, though.

The summoner should also get some powerful, limited times per day summons where he calls a more powerful creature. These summons would always be the same, so the summoner could build a relationship with these creatures. These should be more along the lines of extra creatures, rather than a battlefield control spell that has HPs. As a capstone ability, the summoner with the Hellpact, for instance, would be able to conjure his patron 1/day (hello there Mr. Pit Fiend).

I would also give the summoner a very small amount of spellcasting with a list of mostly buffs. I would make him a charisma spontaneous caster with a list that he knows all spells on (like a warmage or beguiler), giving him either 4th level or 6th level spells by level 20, depending how good the summons are. 6th level casting may not be too powerful, depending on what spells you give. You could also just give him the ABILITY to cast spells, with actual spells only coming from a high cha bonus.

You should probably examine what party roll you want a summoner to fill. Personally, I see a summoner being a great jack-of-all-trades, something like a Binder or a Bard, depending on the plane/summons he picked. Instead of doing the work himself, though, he summons a creature for that task.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-09, 08:59 PM
You want at will something, Here's my take:

You are a summoner, yes you should get free trap monkeys and no one should complain, you are getting a feat as a class feature oh noes.

Summoner: BAB: 1/2 Saves: Ref good Will good Fort Bad

skills: 6+Int Diplomacy and stuff like that, also speak language, also the usual spellcraft concentration and knowledges.

Summoning: 3/day of highest level summoning spell as SLA (spontaneously chosen from Summon Monster/Summon Natures Ally/Summon Ice Creature/Summon Undead). 5/day of next lowest. infinite of every lower level.

1/per day (from level 1) Persist Summoning SLA.
At level 10 or so, give him free extend on all summons.
Give him scaling aid another abilities, like higher bonuses and aiding multiples at once.
A weird spell selection that's like Bard progression, but with spell lower on the list than they are on Wizard list:

Spells like: Planar Bindings, Dimensional Anchors and Locks, Magic Circles, Some Spell Comendium spells of the same sort, like that teleport catching field, also, some minor BC conjurations, like EBT at level 3 (for Bard progression that will be behind Wizards getting it I think).

Thrawn183
2009-08-09, 09:01 PM
Don't forget the special abilities of the things you summon (like say Unicorns).