The OotS world is a balanced version of 3.5...

[Aron Times]

I have come to believe that the OotS world is a balanced version of 3.5. Here's an incomplete list of evidence for my theory:

1. Miko, despite her unfavorable multiclassing and MAD classes (monk/paladin), is more than a match for Roy, a full fighter, when it should be the other way around.

2. Vaarsuvius usually casts Evocation spells, the weakest school in 3.5, but they are shown to be very effective against the Order's enemies.

3. Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal in 3.5, but it is portrayed as being very effective, e.g. Miko and Belkar.

4. Nale is shown to be weaker than Elan despite having a lot of levels in sorcerer, a tier 2 class. Elan adding his charisma bonus to damage rolls shouldn't be enough to defeat a sorcerer that uses Enchantment spells (one of the most powerful schools in 3.5).

5. O-Chul is a fighter/paladin with negative charisma, but is basically as tough as Zaraki Kenpachi (or Chuck Norris, if you don't watch Bleach).

6. Durkon, being a cleric (tier 1!), should be a much better fighter than Roy without even trying. This is obviously not the case.

7. At the party's current levels, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone should be more powerful than the rest of the party.

This post is not made to disparage the Giant's writing ability, but to point out that using the SRD to gauge power levels in the OotS doesn't work because this is a heavily house-ruled version of the ruleset. In fact, I like this ideal, balanced version of 3.5. :smallsmile:

Basically, If the strip actually followed the RAW, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone would've killed Miko without breaking a sweat when she caught up with the Order.

Discuss.

[Berserk Monk]

I have come to believe that the OotS world is a balanced version of 3.5. Here's an incomplete list of evidence for my theory:

1. Miko, despite her unfavorable multiclassing and MAD classes (monk/paladin), is more than a match for Roy, a full fighter, when it should be the other way around.

2. Vaarsuvius usually casts Evocation spells, the weakest school in 3.5, but they are shown to be very effective against the Order's enemies.

3. Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal in 3.5, but it is portrayed as being very effective, e.g. Miko and Belkar.

4. Nale is shown to be weaker than Elan despite having a lot of levels in sorcerer, a tier 2 class. Elan adding his charisma bonus to damage rolls shouldn't be enough to defeat a sorcerer that uses Enchantment spells (one of the most powerful schools in 3.5).

5. O-Chul is a fighter/paladin with negative charisma, but is basically as tough as Zaraki Kenpachi (or Chuck Norris, if you don't watch Bleach).

6. Durkon, being a cleric (tier 1!), should be a much better fighter than Roy without even trying. This is obviously not the case.

7. At the party's current levels, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone should be more powerful than the rest of the party.

This post is not made to disparage the Giant's writing ability, but to point out that using the SRD to gauge power levels in the OotS doesn't work because this is a heavily house-ruled version of the ruleset. In fact, I like this ideal, balanced version of 3.5. :smallsmile:

Basically, If the strip actually followed the RAW, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone would've killed Miko without breaking a sweat when she caught up with the Order.

Discuss.

I disagree with everything you just said.

[The Unlucky One]

I disagree with everything you just said.

Habitually, you need to say why you disagree.

Personally, I think that the OP is right.

In the OotS world, magic isn't as OP as in the standard 3.5 ed world. Fighter have a much bigger role in the comic and that's what it should be in the game.

[Sanguine]

Nale is shown to be weaker than Elan despite having a lot of levels in sorcerer, a tier 2 class. Elan adding his charisma bonus to damage rolls shouldn't be enough to defeat a sorcerer that uses Enchantment spells (one of the most powerful schools in 3.5).

Ah but Nale's multiclassing essentially makes him a bard with sneak attack and evasion(neither of which came up in the fight) instead of bardic music/knowledge so they should be about equal without the prc then the prc gives Elan a boost(not to mention we have no proof Nale gained a level to) giving Elan the edge.

I also disagree with some other suff but this is the only thing I was unlazy enough to write.

[Shinizak]

Ah but Nale's multiclassing essentially makes him a bard with sneak attack and evasion(neither of which came up in the fight) instead of bardic music/knowledge so they should be about equal without the prc then the prc gives Elan a boost(not to mention we have no proof Nale gained a level to) giving Elan the edge.

I also disagree with some other suff but this is the only thing I was unlazy enough to write.

But Nale is a personal rival to Elan, he's ALWAYS going to be the same level.

[Sanguine]

But Nale is a personal rival to Elan, he's ALWAYS going to be the same level.

Very true I forgot about that, but that was just a small point in my argument without it Elan still has the advantage.

[Porthos]

But Nale is a personal rival to Elan, he's ALWAYS going to be the same level.

So does this mean that Nale needs to get a level or two in either Magnificent Bastard (as far as Nale thinks at least) or Smug Snake (far more likely :smalltongue:) to keep up with Elan's levels in Dashing Swordsman? :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

I have come to believe that the OotS world is a balanced version of 3.5. Here's an incomplete list of evidence for my theory:

I'm not sure what you mean by "balanced." If you're saying you prefer the Giant's depiction of the game's mechanics, that's something different than saying he has removed any class discrepancies. (Hint: he hasn't.)


1. Miko, despite her unfavorable multiclassing and MAD classes (monk/paladin), is more than a match for Roy, a full fighter, when it should be the other way around.

Incorrect. She is not "more than a match" for Roy; he just had much worse equipment the first two times they fought. Note that when he finally got a decent weapon, he mopped the floor with her; retaining her paladin abilities wouldn't have strongly impacted their fight because her BAB remained the same.


2. Vaarsuvius usually casts Evocation spells, the weakest school in 3.5, but they are shown to be very effective against the Order's enemies.

Which enemies are you referring to? The goblins? The chimera? Ogres?

V's most effective school has actually been Transmutation. Disintegrating the dragon, buffing the soldiers, defeating Mama and golem-Roy with Shapechange... Really, the only powerful enemy that V laid low with an evocation was the Pit Fiend, and there was far too much chance in that to be anything but plot. (The spell had to penetrate its SR, land on one of the two rays that could have done any good - petrification or plane shift - beat his high fortitude or will saving throws, which were lowered by debuffing spells that THEMSELVES had to beat the Pit Fiend's SR and saves...)


3. Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal in 3.5, but it is portrayed as being very effective, e.g. Miko and Belkar.

Belkar's build defies discussion, so I agree with you there; Miko, I already explained.


4. Nale is shown to be weaker than Elan despite having a lot of levels in sorcerer, a tier 2 class. Elan adding his charisma bonus to damage rolls shouldn't be enough to defeat a sorcerer that uses Enchantment spells (one of the most powerful schools in 3.5).

Nale is a 3-way class split between sorcerer, rogue and fighter, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) not a pure sorcerer. Their 'tier' status doesn't apply to his build; if anything, he SHOULD be weaker than a pure bard.


5. O-Chul is a fighter/paladin with negative charisma, but is basically as tough as Zaraki Kenpachi (or Chuck Norris, if you don't watch Bleach).

Charisma has nothing to do with toughness; you're thinking of Constitution. (On a less related note, Kenpachi himself, like O-Chul, probably has low charisma and astronomical constitution.)


6. Durkon, being a cleric (tier 1!), should be a much better fighter than Roy without even trying. This is obviously not the case.

It seems you are thinking of Clericzilla fighting builds that abuse Divine Metamagic: Persist and Nightsticks to enable a Cleric to cast 24 hour Divine Power and other buffs at the start of each day. But we have no indication that Rich is using Complete Divine, that Durkon knows such a thing is possible, or that their enemies wouldn't just dispel it.


7. At the party's current levels, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone should be more powerful than the rest of the party.

Uh... they are. Did you notice Elan making a dent on that Pit Fiend? Did Haley take down the druid in Cliffport?


This post is not made to disparage the Giant's writing ability, but to point out that using the SRD to gauge power levels in the OotS doesn't work because this is a heavily house-ruled version of the ruleset. In fact, I like this ideal, balanced version of 3.5. :smallsmile:

Basically, If the strip actually followed the RAW, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone would've killed Miko without breaking a sweat when she caught up with the Order.

Discuss.

"The characters in OotS are not fully optimized" is not the same thing as "OotS does not follow RAW." It is possible to adhere to the rules without exploiting them, though it seems the difference has escaped you in this case...

[Zevox]

1. Miko, despite her unfavorable multiclassing and MAD classes (monk/paladin), is more than a match for Roy, a full fighter, when it should be the other way around.
Not necessarily. Being a Monk/Paladin actually is not a bad class combination, if she only had a couple levels in Monk. She'd lose only 1 bab and gain numerous abilities, including the always-useful Evasion and the ability to add her wisdom to her AC if she was ever forced to fight without her armor. And the hp on a Monk 2/Paladin X will not be much below a straight Fighter. Plus she was portrayed as being more than a match for the entire Order (sans Durkon), so she was obviously higher level than Roy anyway.


2. Vaarsuvius usually casts Evocation spells, the weakest school in 3.5, but they are shown to be very effective against the Order's enemies.
That's because V uses them on enemies that are vulnerable to them. Evocation spells are only the "weakest" of 3.5 magic because they aren't save-or-dies and don't summon overpowered allies/buff the caster into a demi-god. They're still quite potent when used on foes that aren't resistant/immune to them.


3. Two-Weapon Fighting is suboptimal in 3.5, but it is portrayed as being very effective, e.g. Miko and Belkar.
Belkar has far more wrong with him than just two-weapon fighting - the only explanation for how effective he is is the power of plot. Also, like Evocation, being sub-optimal does not two-weapon fighting weak in 3.5, just not as effective as using a two-handed weapon.


4. Nale is shown to be weaker than Elan despite having a lot of levels in sorcerer, a tier 2 class. Elan adding his charisma bonus to damage rolls shouldn't be enough to defeat a sorcerer that uses Enchantment spells (one of the most powerful schools in 3.5).
That's a joke, right? Nale's heavily multiclassed (Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer, with an unknown number of levels in each, essentially making him like a Bard with sneak attack, evasion, and a few bonus feats in place of bardic music and knowledge), and did not cast any spells on Elan when they fought anyway. Having levels in a class which can be quite powerful does not make you automatically much more powerful if you don't use that power optimally, or don't have enough levels in it to be that powerful.


5. O-Chul is a fighter/paladin with negative charisma, but is basically as tough as Zaraki Kenpachi (or Chuck Norris, if you don't watch Bleach).
Because he has a massive constitution score.


6. Durkon, being a cleric (tier 1!), should be a much better fighter than Roy without even trying. This is obviously not the case.
No. A Cleric who doesn't buff himself properly ("try") is an inferior warrior to a fighter. He has lower bab, lower hp, and needs to put more into his wisdom than a fighter does, forcing him to have another stat lower than the fighter's. Durkon properly buffed could in fact be a better fighter than Roy - see how useful he becomes when he casts Thor's Might, for instance. And that's just a single buff.


7. At the party's current levels, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone should be more powerful than the rest of the party.
And theoretically, they are. Thing is, they don't use that power optimally. V prepares too many evocations and disintegrates (seriously, she spent all her 6th-level slots other than her specialty bonus slot on that in the last arc), leaving her with no variety of options at her command. Durkon spends nearly all his magic on healing, only rarely buffing with Thor's Might. They could do better, but they don't.


Basically, If the strip actually followed the RAW, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone would've killed Miko without breaking a sweat when she caught up with the Order.
Durkon did not fight Miko. And no, V alone is not likely to beat Miko. Miko has evasion, which screws many of V's favorite spells; the Paladin charisma bonus to saves, making her much harder for any spellcaster to beat than most characters; good base saves all around from her Monk levels; and used a tanglefoot bag plus the storm to disrupt V's casting in their first encounter anyway.

Zevox

[Kaihaku]

Basically, If the strip actually followed the RAW, Durkon or Vaarsuvius alone would've killed Miko without breaking a sweat when she caught up with the Order.

Discuss.

I disagree. It's not that its a balanced version of 3.5, it's that the 'players' either don't know how or choose not to exploit the system.

Miko was higher level. V is mostly a blaster mage (which does work decently in 3.5, just not as well as other styles). Durkon doesn't use Divine Metamagic.

[Sanguine]

I disagree. It's not that its a balanced version of 3.5, it's that the 'players' either don't know how or choose not to exploit the system.

Miko was higher level. V is mostly a blaster mage (which does work decently in 3.5, just not as well as other styles). Durkon doesn't use Divine Metamagic.

Durkon also refused to fight.

[Kaihaku]

Durkon also refused to fight.

I was referring to points 6 and 7.

[Sanguine]

I was referring to points 6 and 7.

Oh, I was thrown off by what you quoted.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding V, the fact that the Order seems to encounter a lot of low-level mooks would make blasting more effective. With Miko, a combination of her being a higher level and battlefield positioning or weather helped her to beat the Order. When Roy beat her, the fact that Miko was shell-shocked from Falling would benefit Roy as well.

[dps]

I was referring to points 6 and 7.

Yeah, but the point is that we don't know how well Durkon would have done against Miko.

[blueblade]

Just to add, the key here is that all of those tier lists really depend on a well optimised character, bordering on a munchkin.

Reasonably well played, fleshed out characters do not really have tiers and all fit into a party, with all of their strengths and weaknesses to boot.

[Jackson]

Tiers are, for the most part, irrelevant. They're certainly not inherent.

As has been pointed out several times now (but can't be pointed out enough), Miko was several levels higher than Roy, at least to start. Nale is insanely multiclassed, with sorcerer levels mostly entirely because they're spontaneous casters who use Charisma, just like Bards. Durkon seems obsessively focused on healing; even so, he's shown to be much more powerful than the rest of the party, with the exception of V (you ever notice that they're the only characters who take down enemies the rest of the party can't approach defeating?). And Durkon (even if it is a joke) is explicitly shown to not have the head for numbers it apparently takes to be a melee fighter; if he did, he might well be a better fighter than Roy.

It's less a 'balanced' version of 3.5 than an approach to its rules that don't take optimization into account. Since the main characters don't have players, and since they'd have to be the most role-playing heavy players in the history of the game if they did exist, a lot of what might be considered 'best' goes out the window. Since it's not a game, at all, personality always trumps the wise considerations of a player with unlimited time and a printed version of the rules.

So it's more like what 3.5 would be like if players followed their characterization to its logical limit than if the game were better balanced. If the characters took more time to optimize themselves, like most players do (even the ones who are focused on acting rather than combat; it's just a natural thing to do), it would probably be as 'unbalanced' as you're used to. Though it still is, really - look at Xykon.

An exception should be made for Belkar, who makes no sense in game terms. Not that that's unusual for dual-wielding rangers in D&D based fiction.

[Jayngfet]

Belkar isn't so much unusual as mostly fights low level mooks(the guard was what, a second level warrior at best?Not to mention all those goblins, hobgoblins, and a d4 hit die kobold).

[Sanguine]

Belkar isn't so much unusual as mostly fights low level mooks(the guard was what, a second level warrior at best?Not to mention all those goblins, hobgoblins, and a d4 hit die kobold).


Why would an order of Paladins have a level 2 Warrior guard a most likely high level PC? That just isn't smart.

[Jayngfet]

Why would an order of Paladins have a level 2 Warrior guard a most likely high level PC? That just isn't smart.

Because the paladins have better things to do than guard one halfling. You know, protecting the world from the snarl, making sure the other five aren't up to anything, that kinda thing. They have a limited number of paladins tackling a very big threat that could doom the world. One halfling who in context is just one of six seems kinda minor in comparison.

[Armitage]

Since the main characters don't have players, and since they'd have to be the most role-playing heavy players in the history of the game if they did exist, a lot of what might be considered 'best' goes out the window. Since it's not a game, at all, personality always trumps the wise considerations of a player with unlimited time and a printed version of the rules.
You obviously never played with the people I played AD&D with.
At least half of the group didn't sit down with rule books to see how to optimize the character.
We just played, tried to get into the head of the PC and decide from his point of view, without knowledge of levels and TAHCO et. al.


I only become a munchkin when playing CRPGs.
I could spend hours thinking about The Perfect Party [TM] for Baldur's Gate II :)

[lord_khaine]

Incorrect. She is not "more than a match" for Roy; he just had much worse equipment the first two times they fought. Note that when he finally got a decent weapon, he mopped the floor with her; retaining her paladin abilities wouldn't have strongly impacted their fight because her BAB remained the same.


Do remember that at this point he proberly had a much stronger weapon than her, and she had just lost most of her magical gear, since it only worked for a paladin.


V's most effective school has actually been Transmutation. Disintegrating the dragon, buffing the soldiers, defeating Mama and golem-Roy with Shapechange... Really, the only powerful enemy that V laid low with an evocation was the Pit Fiend, and there was far too much chance in that to be anything but plot. (The spell had to penetrate its SR, land on one of the two rays that could have done any good - petrification or plane shift - beat his high fortitude or will saving throws, which were lowered by debuffing spells that THEMSELVES had to beat the Pit Fiend's SR and saves...)



well, disintegrating the dragon is also quite a stroke of luck, though not quite as big as the giant fiend.


It seems you are thinking of Clericzilla fighting builds that abuse Divine Metamagic: Persist and Nightsticks to enable a Cleric to cast 24 hour Divine Power and other buffs at the start of each day. But we have no indication that Rich is using Complete Divine, that Durkon knows such a thing is possible, or that their enemies wouldn't just dispel it.


And even then it should still be notet, that the times Durkon used Thors might he kicked a lot of butt.


Just to add, the key here is that all of those tier lists really depend on a well optimised character, bordering on a munchkin.

Reasonably well played, fleshed out characters do not really have tiers and all fit into a party, with all of their strengths and weaknesses to boot.

Unfortunately not, they are mostly just counting on people not making to many stupid mistakes, and taking the time to read up on all their options.

[Sanguine]

Because the paladins have better things to do than guard one halfling. You know, protecting the world from the snarl, making sure the other five aren't up to anything, that kinda thing. They have a limited number of paladins tackling a very big threat that could doom the world. One halfling who in context is just one of six seems kinda minor in comparison.

Very good points but wouldn't it be better to appoint someone who could survive a full attack and raise an alarm? And also someone with PC class levels would be a good idea.

[lord_khaine]

Very good points but wouldn't it be better to appoint someone who could survive a full attack and raise an alarm? And also someone with PC class levels would be a good idea.

the problem is just that its a waste of someone so powerfull, its only relevant because in this case he managet an unlikely escape.

on the other hand, we could have had a lv 8 Paladin sitting on his but for 4 month waching the mold, while Orcs ravaget the countryside.

[Hann1]

if he was actually confined by a paladin sitting on his butt a high level person would have made sense, not like this, escape was way too unlikely there.

[Captain Alien]

Nale actually did beat Elan the first time they fought: Elan was not able of hurting Nale. He just decided to fight Roy instead of his brother.

When Elan won, Nale was carrying a small, useless dagger, and not any magic item at all, as he said when he escaped from Azure City's prison, while Elan was using a magic rapier and a useful class feature.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Belkar, I think the guard was there solely to bring him his gruel rather then being there as a perminant guard. Also, nobody realised Belkar had that Ring of Jumping; without it he didn't appear to have much hope of escaping.

[Morty]

No, the OoTS world isn't a "balanced" version of 3.5. It's a world where the author decides to ignore certain implications - either intentional or unintentional - of the rules where it doesn't fit the story at the moment.