Prophecy of Durkon's death and the dwarven prophecy from Loki. Maybe spoilers?

[Shinizak]

I had always translated the prophecy this way:

During a large fight for the next gate, Durkon is going to die and the party will need to go to the dwarven lands to request a resurrection from the high priest. However, in that battle they will also successfully destroy the fourth gate and royally piss off Xykon. In his anger he will pursue the heroes to the dwarven lands to exact revenge, thus endangering the dwarfs as well.

This has probably been said before, but I just felt it should be mentioned what with the new story arc coming up...

[ondonaflash]

Nah, he'll die and come back as a revenant.

[Jagos]

I was just thinking about this... If he's returning posthumously, would that actually mean his body is returned to the dwarves but his soul is in the snarl gates? It might be similar to what happened to Kraagor.

[Newspaper]

Well he asks "How will I finally be returning...?" Which makes me wonder whether he will return alive at some point but his final return will be posthumous.

[Shinizak]

Well he asks "How will I finally be returning...?" Which makes me wonder whether he will return alive at some point but his final return will be posthumous.

Depending on the meaning it could mean:

"when will this trip end?"

or

"when will I return home for the last time?"

My hypothesis relies on the first one...

[Kish]

...Dwarven prophecy from Loki?

[Alteran]

...Dwarven prophecy from Loki?

He means the prophecy in On the Origin of PCs, the one that caused the dwarves to exile Durkon from the dwarven lands. However, I believe it was actually Odin who the prophecy was from.

[chorpler]

He means the prophecy in On the Origin of PCs, the one that caused the dwarves to exile Durkon from the dwarven lands. However, I believe it was actually Odin who the prophecy was from.

Yeah, it was the High Priest of Odin who told Durkon's boss, the High Priest of Thor, the prophecy. The dwarves probably have little to do with Loki since he's an evil god (as far as I can tell).

[Sanguine]

Yeah, it was the High Priest of Odin who told Durkon's boss, the High Priest of Thor, the prophecy. The dwarves probably have little to do with Loki since he's an evil god (as far as I can tell).

I'd say it is one of these three alignments(sorted by most likely):CE, CN, or CG.

[chorpler]

I'd say it is one of these three alignments(sorted by most likely):CE, CN, or CG.

I've actually always wondered exactly why Thor and Loki seem to be at each others' throats all the time in the OOTSiverse -- is Thor really considered a Lawful Good god? I mean, he breaks the rules and paws chicks afterword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), he throws lighting around while drunk and blindfolded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html), he forgets about defending his loyal followers from Surtur and lets them be slaughtered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html), etc., all of which seem pretty chaotic. And on the other hand, we haven't really seen Loki do anything bad, except maybe call Thor a "Thunder Geek" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) and perhaps commanding Hilgya to steal the Talisman of Dorukan from Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html), although I don't know if deceiving an Evil character about your intent, joining his party, and intending to steal from him is considered an evil act or not. Heck, Loki even admonishes Thor for taunting the Snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), which doesn't seem like the kind of thing an evil, selfish god would do.

But of course in Start of Darkness, Loki and Tiamet, at least, defend the Dark One from other gods, including Thor, and the description specifically says that it was "several of the older evil gods" who defended him..

So it seems that Loki is of the Evil alignment ... but maybe it's just because in the D&D alignment system, folks who are tricksters and practical joker types are considered evil...? I don't know if that's the case or not.

[Hann1]

AFAIR there wasn't any information about WHEN that "posthumously return" will happen, I kinda sorted it into the "happens at the very end of/after the story"-file.

Also what exactly is that Loki Dwarven prophecy(loki+dwarves doesnt mix at all), maybe you can quote the important part?

[Sanguine]

Okay forgot about that in SoD Loki is definitely CE then as Hilgya calls him the god of Chaos and Flames.

@Han1 It is actually a prophecy from Odin(not Loki) in Origins of PCs and it says:
When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

[chorpler]

Okay forgot about that in SoD Loki is definitely CE then as Hilgya calls him the god of Chaos and Flames.

Ah, yes, I had forgotten that Hilgya called him the God of Flames and Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html). But she sure did. Good catch. So Loki is the same alignment as Belkar. Interesting.

Also, at one point during his closing argument, Attorney Jones implies that the Twelve Gods are Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) -- "The gods you serve are Lawful and Good, by their very definition," he says. Yet in SoD, a scene very similar to the one I just referenced (that says Loki is one of the evil gods) seems to imply that Rat, one of the Twelve Gods, is Evil. What's up with that?

Edited to add: I just realized that this is pretty much a total hijack from the topic of this thread. Sorry about that.

[Sanguine]

Ok last post off-topic: I think the Twelve gods as a pantheon is Lawful Good but certain deities among them have different alignments.

[Armitage]

Also, at one point during his closing argument, Attorney Jones implies that the Twelve Gods are Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) -- "The gods you serve are Lawful and Good, by their very definition," he says. Yet in SoD, a scene very similar to the one I just referenced (that says Loki is one of the evil gods) seems to imply that Rat, one of the Twelve Gods, is Evil. What's up with that?

"Lawful and good" does not automatically mean that every single god is lawful good, it could also mean that each god is either lawful or good (or both).
That would leave room for a lawful evil god.


Plus, he says "the gods you serve" which doesn't necessarily have to be all 12 gods -- paladins wouldn't serve the evil or chaotic gods of a pantheon.

[Cerrakoth]

Ah, yes, I had forgotten that Hilgya called him the God of Flames and Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html). But she sure did. Good catch. So Loki is the same alignment as Belkar. Interesting.

Also, at one point during his closing argument, Attorney Jones implies that the Twelve Gods are Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) -- "The gods you serve are Lawful and Good, by their very definition," he says. Yet in SoD, a scene very similar to the one I just referenced (that says Loki is one of the evil gods) seems to imply that Rat, one of the Twelve Gods, is Evil. What's up with that?

Edited to add: I just realized that this is pretty much a total hijack from the topic of this thread. Sorry about that.

I always consider Belkar as CN. He does a lot of evil crap, but that's just because he doesn't care one way or the other. He also hurts the bad guys... It's not like he's out for a 'side' he looks out for number 1. Which is very neutral.

EDIT: Swore by accident, and edited it out ;)

[Woodsman]

I always consider Belkar as CN. He does a lot of evil crap, but that's just because he doesn't care one way or the other. He also hurts the bad guys... It's not like he's out for a 'side' he looks out for number 1. Which is very neutral.

EDIT: Swore by accident, and edited it out ;)

Yeah, but since when did a CN person just randomly kill a gnome?

[chorpler]

I always consider Belkar as CN. He does a lot of evil crap, but that's just because he doesn't care one way or the other. He also hurts the bad guys... It's not like he's out for a 'side' he looks out for number 1. Which is very neutral.

EDIT: Swore by accident, and edited it out ;)

I used to wonder if that was the case; I sort of had the impression that things like Belkar not being affected by the goblin clerkic's "Unholy Blight" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) or Belkar holding up the lead sheet to block Miko's "Detect Evil" power was supposed to be making us wonder if he was evil or not -- kind of like how we constantly wonder about Vaarsuvius's gender but never get any concrete information

But since then, it's been stated numerous times (including by Belkar himself) that Belkar is Chaotic Evil. Rich even discusssed it specifically in the commentary for Round 8 of No Cure for the Paladin Blues, where he described Belkar's evil as "selfish, casual evil" and said "Belkar's not committed to Evil as a force in any particular way, he's simply completely amoral, doing whatever he wants when he wants it. It just so happens that in the alignment system, amoral = Evil."

[Cerrakoth]

Ok well maybe he's more leniant toward Evil ;) But in his own small brain, he justified it. Tad like Miko... But still both arguments blow mine out of the water :belkar:

[Kish]

There is a sticky thread devoted to important/recurring questions and their answers. In it is a link to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6483).
For the record, Belkar being unaffected by Unholy Blight would never have been ambiguous, as only evil characters are unaffected by it.

[chorpler]

There is a sticky thread devoted to important/recurring questions and their answers. In it is a link to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6483).
For the record, Belkar being unaffected by Unholy Blight would never have been ambiguous, as only evil characters are unaffected by it.

Yeah, I saw that thread later. At the time I read that Unholy Blight strip, though, I thought maybe he was just still able to react because it didn't hurt neutral creatures as much as good creatures. I had no experience with D&D at all except through webcomics, and this was the first really D&D-centric comic I was reading.

[Kobold-Bard]

I was just thinking about this... If he's returning posthumously, would that actually mean his body is returned to the dwarves but his soul is in the snarl gates? It might be similar to what happened to Kraagor.

Ladies and gentlemen we have accidentally stumbled across Durkon's long awaited character development. He'll die in similar circumstances to Kraagor, the two will meet on Snarl World, ????????????????????????, Durkon comes back with a level of Barbarian under his belt, he and Belkar bond and proceed to kick Xykon's ass.

[Rotipher]

Durkon can't take a level in barbarian, as barbarians can't be Lawful and he's Lawful Good. He could possibly learn some cool dwarven fighting techniques from Kraagor, or even some plain ol' factual information about the Snarl and/or the inner world.

[Rotipher]

"The gods you serve are Lawful and Good, by their very definition," he says. Yet in SoD, a scene very similar to the one I just referenced (that says Loki is one of the evil gods) seems to imply that Rat, one of the Twelve Gods, is Evil. What's up with that?

Even if Rat isn't Evil, the Rat in the Chinese Zodiac has always been regarded as a bit of a shady character. Not necessarily villainous, but prone to doing things that circumvent convention or authority.

[Fitzclowningham]

Yeah, I saw that thread later. At the time I read that Unholy Blight strip, though, I thought maybe he was just still able to react because it didn't hurt neutral creatures as much as good creatures. I had no experience with D&D at all except through webcomics, and this was the first really D&D-centric comic I was reading.

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html), Belkar says point-blank that he's Chaotic Evil.

[Optimystik]

Also, at one point during his closing argument, Attorney Jones implies that the Twelve Gods are Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html) -- "The gods you serve are Lawful and Good, by their very definition," he says. Yet in SoD, a scene very similar to the one I just referenced (that says Loki is one of the evil gods) seems to imply that Rat, one of the Twelve Gods, is Evil. What's up with that?

He said "the gods you serve," not "the TWELVE gods you serve." In other words, among the 12 are the specific gods that govern the paladins.

This leaves the question of why all 12 appeared in the sky at Miko's demotion: this is answerable by the theory that they act in tandem at such times, due to the Sapphire Guard being a political as well as a spiritual body. (In other words, all 12 removed Miko from her status, and the LG ones removed her powers.)

[veti]

I've actually always wondered exactly why Thor and Loki seem to be at each others' throats all the time in the OOTSiverse -- is Thor really considered a Lawful Good god?

In the sagas of Norse mythology, written a thousand years or more before the D&D alignment system was conceived, Loki and Thor had a special and particular level of loathing for one another. It's basically "conniving treacherous trickster" on one side, versus "muscle-brained oaf" on the other.

It's a source of constant frustration to Thor that the gods of Asgard do actually need Loki, as he's the only one sneaky enough to out-think their enemies, the Giants (who, it should be said, are no great strategic geniuses themselves). Even though none of them like Loki - he's a razor-tongued little smartass - and they know he's fated to betray them all in the end, they still keep appealing to him for help.

[Ubergeek]

Just because Durkon is bringing death to his homeland, it doesn't necessarily mean the dwarfs are going to be the ones dying.

For all we know, The Order goes to the dwarven lands, Xykon follows, and they beat the living crap out of him.

[chorpler]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html), Belkar says point-blank that he's Chaotic Evil.

Precisely -- as I said, in the years since I started reading, his Chaotic Evil status has been confirmed by some pretty tough-to-argue-with authority figures, including the author, Roy's heavenly interviewer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), and even Belkar himself.

[chorpler]

He said "the gods you serve," not "the TWELVE gods you serve." In other words, among the 12 are the specific gods that govern the paladins.

This leaves the question of why all 12 appeared in the sky at Miko's demotion: this is answerable by the theory that they act in tandem at such times, due to the Sapphire Guard being a political as well as a spiritual body. (In other words, all 12 removed Miko from her status, and the LG ones removed her powers.)

I guess always assumed that the Azurites worshipped all twelve, since the Azurites always speak of "the Twelve Gods" and say "Twelve Gods, help me!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), and "Praise the Twelve Gods" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), and pray to all twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) and whatnot. Weird.

[Tijne]

Just because Durkon is bringing death to his homeland, it doesn't necessarily mean the dwarfs are going to be the ones dying.

For all we know, The Order goes to the dwarven lands, Xykon follows, and they beat the living crap out of him.


Or maybe the "death" he brings is Xykon.. whom is infact, dead...
Or maybe the "death" he brings is .....himself.. dead..


....
"When the goat turns red strikes true"

[vampire2948]

I guess always assumed that the Azurites worshipped all twelve, since the Azurites always speak of "the Twelve Gods" and say "Twelve Gods, help me!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), and "Praise the Twelve Gods" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html), and pray to all twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) and whatnot. Weird.

Well, it is faster than just saying "Dragon, Ox, Monkey, Rooster, help me!"
And why would it matter which God helps them when they were in trouble.

Or.. perhaps all of the twelve are different shades of Good? So you'd have some that were LG (worshipped by Paladins), NG, and CG (e.g. the rat).