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elliott20
2009-08-10, 05:11 AM
In my little campaign thought experiment, one of the villains is a creature with rhino like legs, and a human upper body with 4 arms.

I'm trying to figure out how to build an ubercharger build that best takes advantage of these traits. i.e. how can I best utilize the multiple arms? and how do I best take advantage of the creature having multiple legs? (or is there any possible advantages for using a quadrupedal creature as the base?)

anybody have any ideas how this can work?

I understand the basics of an ubercharger build, that is, it's basically shock trooper, pounce, power attack, and leap attack. I also still need to find a quadrupedal race that doesn't eat up too many LAs too.

edit: added tentative stat block


fighter 14 will net me 8, I've scrubbed one feat from the rhinoceros template since he lost his gore attack, so that'll boot it up to 9. Human also gets a free feat, so that's 10. Plus another 4 he gets for every 3rd level, that's 14 total feats if he goes full fighter. or alternatively, I can drop 6 fighter levels, and still walk out with the 10 feat I need, and spend the rest 6 levels on barbarian. (btw, somebody help me with the math here as I'm not sure if my feat count is correct. I'm also not sure what kind of feat pre-reqs some of these feats have)

so let's say I go with the fighter 8, UA barb 6 for the remaining 14 levels. That'll net me 10 feats.

I'll use 32 point buy for his stats.

stats

Dantag
type: large monstrous humanoid
HD: 8d8 + 8d10 + 6d12 + 100 (219)
Speed: 30
AC: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural, )
Attacks: +3 Valorous Lance +28/+23/+18 melee (1d6+15), Light Shield +25/+20 melee (1d4+12), Hand Axe +25/+20 melee (1d6+12)
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge
Special Quality: Low Light vision, multiple limbs
Saves base: Fort +20, Ref +12, Will +16
Stats: str 34 con 20 dex 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 10
Skills: Listen +24, Spot +3, Jump +29, ride +10, survival 5, intimidate +22, listen +10
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, shock trooper, steadfast determination, power attack, leap attack, multi-weapon fighting, improved multi-weapon fighting, spirited charge, mounted combat, ride-by attack, trample
Challenge Rating: 20

Total Wealth: 760,000 gp

ring of greater blinking, command word: 90,000
third eye, conceal: 120,000
Valorous Lance:


so, as of right now, he's maximum possible damage with his lance is

power attack for 14
14 (two hands) = +28
weapon and str = +15

spirited charge x 2
powerful charge x 3
valorous x 4
lance x 5
leap attack x 10
10d8 + 430 (475)

with his offhand weapons, they aren't as impressive
power attack = 14
weapon and str = 12
spirited charge x2
powerful charge x3
valorous x4
leap attack x 8
8d8+208 (244)

Talic
2009-08-10, 05:52 AM
Ubercharger doesn't work well with quadruped. Many of the best buffs are available only to mounted characters, and unless you rule it counts as mounted, it can't qualify for Cavalier goodness.

Hulking hurler, however, benefits greatly from Quadrupeds.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-10, 06:18 AM
According to a Core example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut), quadruped humanoids should be able to qualify for and use the Mounted Combat line of feats without being mounted. If you're the DM, just attach that same quality to this creature and use Spirited Charge with a lance for x3 damage.

For a race, you should check the Tauric Creature template, in both MM2 and Savage Species. The more recent of the two specifies that the quadruped portion can be a medium or large animal or magical beast, and the humanoid portion can be a small or medium humanoid or monstrous humanoid. You don't really need to worry about LA as much as its CR if it's going to be a villain. Definitely use a Rhinoceros as the quadruped, their Powerful Charge ability makes them deal double damage on a charge, so Spirited Charging with a lance would be up to x4. For the humanoid portion you could use a Thri-Kreen (XPH, MM2), which has four arms normally but is the furthest thing from a Human in appearance that you can find. I don't know of any other creatures or templates that would qualify, since the Insectile and Arachnid templates change the base creature to Aberrations. Maybe just invent a template that grants a second set of arms for +1 CR/LA and call it good.

elliott20
2009-08-10, 08:06 AM
that's a good idea. The main reason I wanted to know the LA is because I need to be able to adjust this thing's difficulty to the parties strength, or else risk an early TPK. (since it's a sandbox game, it's something I need to consider)

I wonder why normal quadrupeds can benefit from the mounting charger stuff though.

ahh well, no matter. Next up, the stat block (when I get time.)

elliott20
2009-08-10, 11:45 PM
anyway, let me just do this step by step. and keep in mind, I'm still kind of new at the whole ubercharger multipliers, so feel free to scrutinize the math.

first, the Dantag tauric rhinoceros template

type: large monstrous humanoid
HD: 8d8+40
Speed: 30
AC: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural)
Attacks: Loses the Gore attack, since it no longer has a horn.
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge
Special Quality: Low Light vision, multiple limbs
Saves base: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Stats: Str +16, Con +10
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance,
Challenge Rating: 6

Multiple Limbs: Dantag has four arms (two primary and two secondary). The primary arms can hold any item normally allowed to the character. The secondary arms cannot wield weapons, shields, and/or implements, and the Dantag cannot benefit from any properties from weapons, shields, and/or implements being held in the secondary arms.
Once per round as a free action, as long as at least one arm is not holding an item, Dantag can switch held items between the primary and secondary arms (any combination)
Dantag do not gain an additional arms slot.

Now I gotta add class levels on top of it.

feats I'll need

shock trooper
pounce
power attack
leap attack
multi-weapon fighting
improved multi-weapon fighting
spirited charge
mounted combat
ride-by attack
trample

that's 10 feats.

If I still want to squeeze all of this into a CR 20 creature, I'm pretty sure I'll have to just go fighter for all of them.

fighter 14 will net me 8, I've scrubbed one feat from the rhinoceros template since he lost his gore attack, so that'll boot it up to 9. Human also gets a free feat, so that's 10. Plus another 4 he gets for every 3rd level, that's 14 total feats if he goes full fighter. or alternatively, I can drop 6 fighter levels, and still walk out with the 10 feat I need, and spend the rest 6 levels on barbarian. (btw, somebody help me with the math here as I'm not sure if my feat count is correct. I'm also not sure what kind of feat pre-reqs some of these feats have)

so let's say I go with the fighter 8, UA barb 6 for the remaining 14 levels. That'll net me 10 feats.

I'll use 32 point buy for his stats.

stats

Dantag
type: large monstrous humanoid
HD: 8d8 + 8d10 + 6d12 + 100 (219)
Speed: 30
AC: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural, )
Attacks: +3 Valorous Lance +28/+23/+18 melee (1d6+15), Light Shield +25/+20 melee (1d4+12), Hand Axe +25/+20 melee (1d6+12), Light Mace
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge
Special Quality: Low Light vision, multiple limbs
Saves base: Fort +20, Ref +9, Will +6 (still need to work on the saves)
Stats: str 34 con 20 dex 16 int 10 wis 10 cha 10
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3, (still need to fill out the skills)
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, shock trooper, pounce, power attack, leap attack, multi-weapon fighting, improved multi-weapon fighting, spirited charge, mounted combat, ride-by attack, trample
Challenge Rating: 20

so, as of right now, he's maximum possible damage with his lance is

power attack for 14
14 (two hands) = +28
weapon and str = +15

spirited charge x 2
powerful charge x 3
valorous x 4
lance x 5
leap attack x 10
10d8 + 430 (475)

with his offhand weapons, they aren't as impressive
power attack = 14
weapon and str = 12
spirited charge x2
powerful charge x3
valorous x4
leap attack x 8
8d8+208 (244)

Is this math actually correct though? I can't help feeling that I'm doing the multipliers wrong.

also, this guy so far is one super one trick pony. one single will/dex save spell and he's done. I'll have to boost this somehow.

edit: re-calculated the numbers

Talic
2009-08-10, 11:47 PM
Math is wrong. Two doubles equal a triple.

That means your multiplier is x5.

elliott20
2009-08-10, 11:48 PM
ahh, that's what I thought man. thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to calculate the numbers.

sofawall
2009-08-11, 12:00 AM
Doesn't Leap Attack apply at the very end, and isn't subject to 5*2=6, but is instead 5*2=10? I seem to recall this being the reason Leap Attack is so powerful.

Talic
2009-08-11, 12:01 AM
No prob. I'll try to provide some other ideas.

For example, if he has a ring of greater spell storing with Giant Size in it, he can go colossal. All he needs is a caster minion to refill it. That, or an artificer with scroll crafting ability, and UMD for casting.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 12:02 AM
Doesn't Leap Attack apply at the very end, and isn't subject to 5*2=6, but is instead 5*2=10? I seem to recall this being the reason Leap Attack is so powerful.

Just did a google search on this topic and a large number of people out there seem to agree with this. Anybody know an official answer on this?

oooh, now THAT sounds like a fun idea. I've completely forgotten about his minions!

I wonder how he'll fair without flight though... maybe something I can relegate to the spell casting minion again?

also, how can I efficiently get UMD on this guy? I think it's a cross class for fighters and barbarians. This guy doesn't get enough skill points as is, so I'm not sure how to get that in there.

Or I could just add another minion whose sole purpose is to UMD his boss...

sofawall
2009-08-11, 12:03 AM
This is in fact why I posted it... I don't know how many times it comes up on Gleemax.

Talic
2009-08-11, 12:04 AM
Just did a google search on this topic and a large number of people out there seem to agree with this. Anybody know an official answer on this?

Leap Attack, as errata'd, is +100%, not double.

Apply at end, and it will double all damage.

spirited charge x2
powerful charge x3
valorous x4

Then apply leap, for x8.

ColdSepp
2009-08-11, 12:04 AM
Shock Trooper needs Improved Bull Rush as a prereq, I believe.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 12:07 AM
Shock Trooper needs Improved Bull Rush as a prereq, I believe.

If so, maybe I could just drop one of the multi-weapon fighting feats then and spend it on the improved bull rush. of course, that means he'll be missing 3 additional attacks from it... oh well.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 12:37 AM
Ubercharger doesn't work well with quadruped. Many of the best buffs are available only to mounted characters, and unless you rule it counts as mounted, it can't qualify for Cavalier goodness.
So he will only kill them a couple times over instead of a couple 10s of times over ... that's hardly a problem.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 12:44 AM
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.

You are mixing up damage multipliers and power attack multipliers/modifiers.

With leap attack and a 2 handed weapon you simply get (weapon + str + 4xPA-penalty)*damage-multipliers.

Also why are you counting Powerful Charge as a damage multiplier? It just gives a flat damage bonus ...

elliott20
2009-08-11, 12:55 AM
You are mixing up damage multipliers and power attack multipliers/modifiers.

The main hand damage is for instance (weapon + str + 4xPA-penalty)*5

noted. will go back and modify sheet.

also, I just realized that I didn't specify how I was gonna get pounce. I remember that you can get pounce by taking the UA lion totem for your barbarian, so maybe I'll just go with that as his first class, and fighter the rest.

edit: odd, I somehow thought powerful charge was another multiplier.

PinkysBrain
2009-08-11, 12:56 AM
Edited my post in the mean time.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 01:08 AM
just read over the powerful charge entry in the rhino stat block. The number stated there is the total damage, not the bonus damage. From looking at the values, it seems like it's derived as attack*2. Of course, I could be wrong and this could just be a case of +2d6+str bonus instead. But I'm not quite sure right now.

Talic
2009-08-11, 01:11 AM
So he will only kill them a couple times over instead of a couple 10s of times over ... that's hardly a problem.

LOL. Compare it to a Hulking Hurler Build.

Half Ogre Psywar 3 / Warblade 3 / Hulking Hurler 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 10 (LA Buyoff)

Natural Heavyweight (Planar Handbook)
Belt of the Wide Earth (MIC)
Hauling Back (Fiend Folio)
Gauntlets of extended range (MIC)
Far Shot
Extend Range Power (Comp Psi)
Expansion
Practiced Manifester

And Use BSB's capstone to hit an entire party with nasty damage levels. You're a gargantuan Quadruped with x2 carrying from nat heavyweight, and x2 from belt of the wide earth, in addition to the x12 you get for size and quad. On top of the strength. Light load isn't very light,

And this is nowhere near optimized.

sofawall
2009-08-11, 01:15 AM
The one on Gleemax (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=142565) is hilarious...

You may need to read through the thread a bit, the first post never really got updated.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 01:21 AM
wow, talk about excessive.

I mean, really now, how many things can possibly have 3000+ hit points?

I mean, my little charger here is dealing at around 400 or so per hit. (maybe 300 if the math is off) and to me THAT is already a little excessive.

Talic
2009-08-11, 01:27 AM
That hurler build would likely only do about 500 damage or so per hit.

But it can do it at ranges around 150 feet, and, as a full round action, can attack everything within that distance for 500 damage.

It's ikea. Smaller, but more effective. It's designed to go after multiple threats.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 01:30 AM
That hurler build would likely only do about 500 damage or so per hit.

But it can do it at ranges around 150 feet, and, as a full round action, can attack everything within that distance for 500 damage.

It's ikea. Smaller, but more effective. It's designed to go after multiple threats.

lol, oh wow. that's kind of awesome.

almost makes me want to just swap out Dantag from an ubercharger to a hulking hurler.

almost.

I just like the idea of having something the size of rhino charge the players, whilst shaking the ground beneath them.

Talic
2009-08-11, 01:48 AM
lol, oh wow. that's kind of awesome.

almost makes me want to just swap out Dantag from an ubercharger to a hulking hurler.

almost.

I just like the idea of having something the size of rhino charge the players, whilst shaking the ground beneath them.

I prefer 20,000 pound blocks of iron that have been transmuted to force energy.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 01:54 AM
I'm still trying to figure out the rest of the character build like AC and such.

since he's an ubercharger, his AC is probably going to tank like something crazy. I think instead of AC pumping, I might instead just buy him items that will help him get some kind of miss chance instead.

any to help against range, maybe some kind of wind shield (or just good ol' fashion protection against arrows)

I'm still trying to figure out how to pump his will save up. at this point, he's a big dumb monster that is just begging to be mind controlled.

Talic
2009-08-11, 02:00 AM
I'm still trying to figure out the rest of the character build like AC and such.

since he's an ubercharger, his AC is probably going to tank like something crazy. I think instead of AC pumping, I might instead just buy him items that will help him get some kind of miss chance instead.

any to help against range, maybe some kind of wind shield (or just good ol' fashion protection against arrows)

I'm still trying to figure out how to pump his will save up. at this point, he's a big dumb monster that is just begging to be mind controlled.

Shock Trooper will result in poor AC. Pierce Magical Concealment + Blink works well. Alternately, Greater Blink.

Protection from arrows is bypassed by magic arrows. Not effective at high levels. Better to go with miss chance. Air Devotion, Entropic Shield, etc. Another option is battlefield control. Stage the battle in a high wind environment.

Mind-Blank, Protection from X. Also good is Steadfast Determination, which lets you apply your con modifier to will saves.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 02:08 AM
I remember sometime back someone said that there's a thread which shows all features/abilities and where they come from. I need to find that thread.

I just realized PMC requires you get mage slayer AND blind-fight.

that's three more feats I'm not sure where I can squeeze out of.

I mean, if i'm allowed to simply axe the default feats I get from the rhino template, and use those, I might be able to pull it off. (and I just notice with UA lion totem barbarian, pounce is not a feat and thus that gives me one more)

ring of blink will be a nice addition.

steadfast determination will come in very handy though. Since I already have the endurance feat, this will fit right in.

I also think I can drop one level of barbarian and do a dip somewhere. I'm not sure where though. (Maybe warblade?)

let's see though, a circlet of mind-blank might be appropriate. but to get one of those bad boys you need someone who is at least a level 16 caster. That might work but it could potentially shift the attention from the Dantag to the caster. Maybe I'll just let him purchase one and say that he got it from his old caster buddy Wagnas instead.

I'll also have to tally up his magic items too.

sofawall
2009-08-11, 02:18 AM
This one, perchance? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842)

Wait, UA Lion Totem? Don't you mean Spiritual Lion Totem, from Complete Champion?

Talic
2009-08-11, 02:43 AM
I remember sometime back someone said that there's a thread which shows all features/abilities and where they come from. I need to find that thread.

I just realized PMC requires you get mage slayer AND blind-fight.

that's three more feats I'm not sure where I can squeeze out of.

I mean, if i'm allowed to simply axe the default feats I get from the rhino template, and use those, I might be able to pull it off. (and I just notice with UA lion totem barbarian, pounce is not a feat and thus that gives me one more)

ring of blink will be a nice addition.

steadfast determination will come in very handy though. Since I already have the endurance feat, this will fit right in.

I also think I can drop one level of barbarian and do a dip somewhere. I'm not sure where though. (Maybe warblade?)

let's see though, a circlet of mind-blank might be appropriate. but to get one of those bad boys you need someone who is at least a level 16 caster. That might work but it could potentially shift the attention from the Dantag to the caster. Maybe I'll just let him purchase one and say that he got it from his old caster buddy Wagnas instead.

I'll also have to tally up his magic items too.

Psionic item: Third Eye, Conceal: Pretty much a mind blank.

elliott20
2009-08-11, 03:42 AM
This one, perchance? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842)

Wait, UA Lion Totem? Don't you mean Spiritual Lion Totem, from Complete Champion?

sorry, my bad. that is correct. I got confused there myself.

Talic
2009-08-11, 04:21 AM
If you want pounce, that's Complete Champion.

UA mostly relates to bonus feats. Bear and Wolf are good UA totems.